Bitcoin Forum

At the request of the U.S. Secret Service, eBay has begun purging the online auction site of listings offering for sale Liberty Dollar medallions in gold, silver, platinum and copper.

Officials at eBay indicate the systematic removal beginning Nov. 29 of the listings is intended to conform with its policy implemented Feb. 20 banning the listing of counterfeits and replicas on eBay.com.

In emails sent by eBay to sellers whose listings for Liberty Dollars were canceled, officials at the online auction site expressed their regrets for having to take the action.

“The United States Secret Service has requested the removal of all Norfed Liberty dollars on the eBay site as counterfeits. ...

“Please do not relist this item(s).

“We appreciate that you chose to list this coin on our site and understand there was no ill intent on your part. Your listing fees have been credited to your account.”

Contacted by Coin World, eBay spokesman Ryan Moore offered the following comment: “The listings for Norfed Liberty Dollars have been removed as they have been deemed counterfeit by the United States Secret Service. Counterfeits are illegal and not welcome on any of eBay’s sites.”

NORFED is more formally known as the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act and the Internal Revenue Code. The group issued Liberty Dollar medallions as an alternative to Federal Reserve notes, and advocated their commercial use.

Canceled eBay listings

Dave Gillie, who began buying and selling Liberty Dollars in 2001 and later became a regional currency officer for NORFED, said Dec. 5 that he had eight of his listings for Liberty Dollars canceled on Nov. 29.

Gillie still accepts Liberty Dollars at his Gillie’s Coney Island restaurant in Mount Morris, Mich., in payment for meals.

The dealer was perplexed by the government’s characterization of Liberty Dollars as counterfeits. Gillie said in a Dec. 5 email to Coin World that out of respect for eBay’s “coerced” decision he will not list Liberty Dollars for sale at the website until “they change their policy again.”

Gillie estimates he has sold and exchanged thousands of Liberty Dollars in the years he’s been involved with them. Gillie says he’s also purchased hundreds of Liberty Dollars from former NORFED regional currency officers leery about what legal action authorities could take against those own Liberty Dollars.

Liberty Dollars targeted

The Liberty Dollar, introduced in 1998 by its monetary architect, Bernard von NotHaus, was deemed counterfeit during a March 2011 federal trial in North Carolina. Von NotHaus was convicted on four counts involving the production and distribution of the Liberty Dollars. Von NotHaus has yet to be sentenced.

Von NotHaus billed Liberty Dollars as an alternative form of money for those who do not want to use Federal Reserve notes. Federal officials claimed the metallic Liberty Dollars violated federal counterfeiting laws.

Coin World contacted the U.S. Secret Service’s Office of Public Affairs in Washington, D.C., as well as the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Charlotte, N.C., for specific comments regarding the issues of ownership and sale of Liberty Dollars still in collector hands. As of Dec. 7, no responses had been given to Coin World.

In 2006, the U.S. Mint issued a press release stating that prosecutors at the Department of Justice determined that using Liberty Dollars as circulating money is a federal crime.

The Liberty Dollar was introduced by NORFED as a “private voluntary barter currency,” with the medallions exchanged for goods and services with merchants willing to accept them according to the stated face value on each.

Several questions remain unanswered by the Secret Service:

➤ Are the pieces legal to own, sell, distribute or even exhibit for educational purposes at a coin show or other venue?

➤ Will federal law enforcement authorities seek to seize any of the tens of thousands of Liberty Dollars still in private hands?

Collector interest

Liberty Dollars were issued in multiple sizes and stated face values, with the silver 1-ounce pieces being the most popular used in exchanges. Face values changed over the years as the price of silver rose.

The medals proved popular with collectors.

With von NotHaus’ March, 18, 2011, conviction, values for Liberty Dollars were driven higher still. The number of eBay sales for such pieces also rose subsequent to the court case.

The seizure by federal authorities in November 2007 of millions of the Liberty Dollars held in a third-party warehouse in Idaho effectively shut down von NotHaus’ Liberty Services.

NORFED had been dissolved in December 2006, and resurrected as Liberty Services, doing business as Liberty Dollar. ■

The message is clear. Compete with the inflationary petrodollar and we'll toss you in the can and label you a terrorist.

On a side note, eBay/Paypal can go away now. SO done with those greedy bozos.

Well no it is obvious that NotHaus was counterfeiting.  Sales were low so he used similar designs and false marketing in order to move more product.  IIRC in the trial one many of his merchants testified and presented sales docs where NORFED indicated that they could move more coins if they simply gave them as change without explanation.  A significant portion of the consumers would assume they were US currency.  Since merchants could buy the "money" at a discount to face value everyone wins.   Generally speaking if you pass off your currency as US currency it is counterfeiting.    

If NotHaus is your anti-FED hero well you need to pick better heroes.  Did you know the "Liberty Dollars" were inflationary.   They contained less than face value of silver and as the value of silver rose the coins became more and more debased. Greed pure and simple.

The fed being bad doesn't make NotHaus good.

It is an interesting legal situation though.   I guess worse case scenario coins holders would melt them down and get melt value for them.  Then again many paid huge huge premiums to melt value so they would be looking at a large (although not complete) loss.

At the request of the U.S. Secret Service, eBay has begun purging the online auction site of listings offering for sale Liberty Dollar medallions in gold, silver, platinum and copper.

I think the take away from this story is: Can the US government use any angle to claim Bitcoin to be counterfeiting USD?

I thought the takeaway was that they didn't have to. Just claim BTC is a tool used by spooky anonymous terrorists and attack. That would seem to be more consistent with McCarth...er US policy.

He was never charged with anything related to terrorism.

Bernard von NotHaus
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bernard von NotHaus is the creator of the Liberty Dollar and co-founder of the Royal Hawaiian Mint Company.[1] He created the Free Marijuana Church of Honolulu.[2] Von NotHaus was labeled as a domestic terrorist by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation in 2011.[3]
According to the evidence introduced during his 2011 federal criminal trial in connection with his involvement with the Liberty Dollar, von NotHaus was the founder of an organization called the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Code, commonly known as NORFED and also known as Liberty Services. The FBI claimed that NORFED’s purpose was to mix Liberty Dollars into the current money of the United States and that NORFED intended for the Liberty Dollar to be used as current money in order to limit reliance on, and to compete with, United States currency.[4]

NotHaus did get his due process he was charged, tried, and convicted of counterfeiting US currency but don't let facts get in the way of a good rant.  It was NORFED self described purpose to overthrow the Federal Reserve and IRS by subverting the US money supply through the injection of alternatives using deception and covert means.

While "terrorist" is a stretch in my book it is not very hard to see why he would end up on the FBI and Secret Service radar.

If NotHaus is your anti-FED hero well you need to pick better heroes.  Did you know the "Liberty Dollars" were inflationary.   They contained less than face value of silver and as the value of silver rose the coins became more and more debased. Greed pure and simple.

Those do look better than U.S minted ones :p

Just to make sure that isn't misunderstood, you don't mean traditional coin debasement methods where alloys are introduced like how a 1964 U.S. quarter had 90% silver content, but a 1965 quarter of the same shape, size and appearance had been debased with a copper and nickel coin with no silver content whatsoever.

Instead what the Liberty Dollar did was change the denomination stamped on the coin.  The earlier 1 ounce silver coin was stamped $10.  The later 1 ounce silver coin was stamped $20.

The price charged for an item in terms of Liberty Dollars though would fluctuate depending on the exchange rate for silver.

So a 2005 (1 ounce silver) $10 Liberty Dollar pictured above would (presumably) buy the same amount of goods and services that the 2006 (1 ounce silver) $20 Liberty Dollar would.

So the takeaway is that anyone producing physical bitcoins should be very careful to ensure there is no likeness (intentional or otherwise) with US currency.   The use of $, "dollars",  "US", "In God we trust", and other currency emblems and icons should be avoided.  Things like "lady liberty", the "bald eagle", "stars & stripes", depictions of US landmarks (capital building, lincoln memorial) or persons used in current or out of circulation US currency are likely a foolish risk.

Making a bitcoin which looks like this for example would probably not be a good idea.  Attempting to pass it off as US currency to unsuspecting customers would be an even worse idea.  Nothaus did both.

Whoever ... makes ... any coins of gold or silver or other metal, ... intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

He was also convicted of violating 18 USC § 486 - Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal:


This could definitely be applied to Casascius coins. The prosecutor just has to convince the jury that they are intended to be used as currency.

Nothing is real. Everything is far away. Everything is a copy of a copy of a copy

WTF does "intended for use as current money" mean?

Not only did they ban liberty dollars, but they also banned the silver certificates. I don't see how those could be considered counterfeit coins because they aren't even coins.

BTW, I have one original 1998 $1 certificate left -- BTC2, free shipping.

You mean those dollars with the blue seal instead of green?

The underlying commodity for bitcoin is the electricity and processing power required to mine it.

This is incorrect. There's no "underlying commodity for bitcoin", Bitcoin itself is the commodity.
Saying electricity and processing power are underlying commodities for Bitcoin is like saying mines and "excavation power" are underlying commodities for gold (or any other metal).

This, btw, is a frequent mistake concerning Bitcoin: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#The_value_of_bitcoins_are_based_on_how_much_electricity_and_computing_power_it_takes_to_mine_them

NORFED/Liberty Dollar has been in operation since 1998, why all of a sudden did the federal government decide this form of silver bullion is illegal? The clear signs of political motive are painted very clearly on the pages of this case from the very beginning. Just examine the rhetoric the prosecutor used invoking accusations of "terrorism". This is all about keeping the people of the United States from being able to protect themselves from being robbed blind by the failing federal reserve system.

Hey uhm, wouldn't it be best for the people that have come up with their own coins/money, to just hide it and wait for collapse or an acceptance of competing currencies to come out with it?

Why risk federal "pound-me-in-the-ass" prison?

Hey uhm, wouldn't it be best for the people that have come up with their own coins/money, to just hide it and wait for collapse or an acceptance of competing currencies to come out with it?

Why risk federal "pound-me-in-the-ass" prison?
http://i2.listal.com/image/1853371/500full.jpg

You mean those dollars with the blue seal instead of green?

I mean these.

https://i.imgur.com/F5I7Yl.jpg

I am somehow confused here. WTF does "intended for use as current money" mean? If me and my neighbor decide tomorrow to use between us round pieces of metal as money, are we facing jail?  

The politicians will be ready to foist off another fiat POS currency that will "save the economy", and we'll get screwed in the never ending cycle of bankster control.

As long as you live in Soviet America the answer to this and any other question regarding you going to jail is yes. Yes, you can go to jail at any time for any reason. Because you are not free people over there, you're already in jail. Simply moving cell blocks is a purely administrative matter, and it is for this reason right that it should be handled by the administration.


The story of never ending "ok guise this time fo real" overlapping but worthless currencies in Latin America and other backwards places would pretty much support this theory. After the collapse of the current dollar there will be the "Unity", then the Chicago Dollar, Californian Cali and Boston SHRIMP, then some scheme for a new "Federal", then bla bla bla. All of them losing 10-90% each year.

I seriously think of buying a set of these coins.... Does one know how to get them in Germany?

Spent Casascius coins are traded with empty wallets, but that hardly make them a currency or means of payment, they are more a collectible.

Un spent casascius coins with an intact hologram is different. However Bitcoin itself has to be ruled a currency or a mean of payment before Casascius coins become illegal.

Techshare, I completely agree with your response, that any rival currency at some point becomes a target for regulation. The heat will focus on Bitcoin however, as there is no need to flex the government muscle twice when the end goal is destruction or hampering of Bitcoin.

Even if casacius coin is physical coin that is literally in conflict with the law, it will be a waste of government money to ban it as it's value in bitcoin is intact.

it's like designer drugs where the chemists change a few bonds to make a new drug that isn't yet outlawed. If Casacius coins were outlawed, a casacius note or figurine could be traded legally the following day.