Bitcoin Forum

Today we would like to announce our new provably fair system, and referral system at http://btc-raffle.com

How it works.

After the second player joins a round, the round starts and the site will start generating lucky numbers by the hash of latest bitcoin transaction and total pot of each round(in satoshi). It is generated for every second. The hashes shown on the page are in realtime with bitcoin network. The final lucky number is the one after 10-second is up. As you can see, the hash of bitcoin transaction is totally unpredictable and the lucky number is generated after each round is finished. No one on the earth can know the lucky number before round ends.

How to verify.

It's pretty straightforward. Use the following script to verify the generated lucky number.



How Our Referral System Works

Once you are logged into the site click your profile button at the top right side of the site. Then click "Referral" On this page you will see your referral link also the stats of your referrals. Each time one of your referrals place a bet on the site you will earn 1% of the total bet. This last for life.
This is a 100% site revenue commission. (Meaning you take 100% of what we make) We make nothing on referrals we give our members 100%.


Provably Fair
Fast Deposits (Only 1 confirm)
Instant Auto Withdraws
New Raffle Every 10 Seconds
Members Live Chat
Admin Private Support Chat
Player VS Player (Not gambling against the house like every other site)


 
Join our FREE GIVEAWAY @
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1314647.0

Video Demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RTjeQbHtDk&feature=youtu.be


If you have any suggestions or ideas on how to improve the site please let us know.

I am so glad that I lead a team to built this site and it is LIVE.  ;D

The team has put some much time and energy for the site. We also have a bounty for those who can help us build a better, more secure site.

The new provably fair is unbeatable fair. And the new referral system can help our members make more btc.
The txid the site is using for provably fair is synced with bitcoin network. You can compare the hashes in real time with blockchain.info. We don't and can't pick any txid.

We will add more features in the near future. If you have good ideas, please let us know. We also have bounty for good ideas too.

OK I have tried this site and I must that this is an excellent site I have to say. Simple and neat design gives you a comfortable feeling to play. Players are quite competitive there actually! Deposits are credited after one confirmation and withdrawals are instantly so there is nothing to worry at all ;D I love the concept of this site a lot so I hope that people will promote this as much as they can! BTW, I just won 0.003 BTC from it ;D  It's really easy to win I have to say! If you have a chance, try it and you won't regret.

Regards
zodiac3011

Congrats on your earnings. Hope to see you back soon again.

The previous thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1288600) is to be locked, so I hope we can continue the discussion here.

Unfortunately the new system also does not offer provable fairness and potentially allows even players to cheat. This stems from the fact that the game result is generated from the number of satoshis in the pot and the hash of the last received transaction at the end of each round. Transactions can be generated in advance and later broadcast by anyone, which consequently allows the winner to be chosen at least for rounds with few players. A better explanation by another user can be found here:


I also urge you once again to start using SSL. Basic SSL certificates can be purchased for less than $5 per year or can even be obtained for free from Let's Encrypt (https://letsencrypt.org), albeit with some effort. It is irresponsible to send your players' information in the clear, especially when money is on the line.

That being said, I do think it is laudable that you have recognised the that your previous system was not provably fair and are attempting to make improvements.

Before you make false accusations please at least understand how our system works.

We take the hashes live from blockchain we time stamp the winning hash meaning there is NO way to use pre-generated hashes.

The first I heard of your site was when you turned up on the pevpot thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1243970.msg13432128#msg13432128) making accusations that they were cheating their players.

I checked out your site and found that it isn't provably fair, whereas pevpot *is*. We went over this in detail on the pevpot thread.

I have tried numerous times on that thread to get you to understand the problem, but both you and the "developer" you used fail to grasp the concept.

I can't tell whether you're leaving the site how it is because you're incapable of understanding what's wrong with it or because you like having the option of cheating your players. I guess it doesn't matter which of the two it is - either way it would be a mistake for anyone to trust your site.

Please either fix the site so that it is provably fair OR stop claiming that it is provably fair. Come on, do the right thing here.

You are just straight out lying now, you are claiming we can use pre-generated hashes. This is 100% FALSE

We have tried to explain to you many times how our system works, but it seems like you are incompetent of understanding it.

Vouch, used this site before & he gave me a few dollars to start.
Lots of games going on and there's no need to wait weeks to find out if you won.

Care to explain why you couldn't use pre-generated hashes? You would just need to broadcast them shortly before the 30 second timeout.


I understand it just fine. It isn't provably fair.

We would first have to pay the 0.001 fee from blockchain then we would also need know the second it would be on blockchain. As you can see this is impossible.

Please post it public how the system is not provably fair, because just saying it means nothing.

If you can show us any real proof i will gladly say your right, besides that you just sound like a troll. Clearly with the motivation to make us look bad and to make our competitor look good.

So first you were saying it was IMPOSSIBLE for you to use pregenerated hashes:


And now you are saying that it is possible so long as you are willing to pay a few dust fees?


It takes less than a second to get a transaction onto blockchain.info, so you know which second it will be there - it's the same second as you sent it to them.

So it seems this attack has gone from "impossible, 100% false" to "anyone can do it for 0.0001 BTC". Hmmm.


Which bit is impossible? Affording the fee? Or sending a transaction at the right time?


OK. One more time:

The system is not provably fair because the site can affect the outcome of the game after the tickets have been bought by broadcasting pregenerated transactions at the right time, and deliberately selecting that transaction as the one that affects the selection of the winning ticket.


You want to see proof of what, exactly? Here are the main points:

1) you can generate transactions without broadcasting them
2) you can check the txid of those transactions before you broadcast them
3) once you know the number of satoshis bet, you can figure out which ticket would win for each transaction
4) so you can find out which of your 100 pregenerated transactions would make you win if it was picked
5) it takes less than a second to get a transaction picked up by blockchain.info
6) you have no way of proving which was the last transaction you saw on blockchain.info after the 30 seconds is up
7) you can pick any transaction that was shown on blockchain.info in the relevant second

Can you tell me which of those 7 points you need proof of? They all seem self-evident to me.

I have no reason to make any site look good. My interest is in making sure that sites which claim to be provably fair actually are. And yours isn't.

1) you can generate transactions without broadcasting them
Answer False
2) you can check the txid of those transactions before you broadcast them
Answer False
3) once you know the number of satoshis bet, you can figure out which ticket would win for each transaction
Answer False
4) so you can find out which of your 100 pregenerated transactions would make you win if it was picked
Answer False
5) it takes less than a second to get a transaction picked up by blockchain.info
Answer False
6) you have no way of proving which was the last transaction you saw on blockchain.info after the 30 seconds is up
Answer False
7) you can pick any transaction that was shown on blockchain.info in the relevant second
Answer False


Now let me try once again to explain in layman's terms for you, we cannot predict when the last second will be, as when each person joins the game it resets back to 10 seconds.

Only with magic can we be so lucky to have the site use said transaction.

This also is all happening within seconds do you think we are super computers who can take the amount of satoshis know exactly when the game is going to end compute all that with in seconds oh and get super lucky with magic and get our transaction on the exact second the game ends?

You sir are a bad troll.

I just joined the chat contest and won $0.08 (by replying twice in the chat box). I have been paid as well and am happy to be a part of this chat contest. The prize one can win is between $0.02-$1.

Why do you believe this is not possible? How do you think cold wallets and offline signing work?

Here is a transaction that has not been broadcast in hex form:


In a real attack we would generate many more, for example 100, instead of just one.

---

The transaction ID of the above transaction is fa3c30c7821cdff2b191468bd5e9314f82d21d8dd27bc5e4548fcf4c512a2cb5. Note that it remains not broadcast yet we have just calculated its transaction ID. We can easily calculate the transaction ID for all of the unbroadcast transactions we generated in the previous step.

---

You do not know how to calculate the winning ticket on your own site? The necessary code was given by yourself in the first post in this thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1312679.msg13430600#msg13430600) and on your site's FAQ.

All we have to do is input the hash of the transaction we just generated—but still have not broadcast—and the total number of satoshi (let us assume 60.000 satoshi for example) in the pot into the LuckyNumberGenerator function:

---

Let's assume we want the player with the tickets from 6668 to 8334 to win. The previous code example can easily be expanded upon to find all the winning transactions among the one:


Because tickets 6668 through 8334 are 16.66 % of all tickets, we can expect approximately 16 of our 100 pregenerated transactions to cause us to win.

---

Transactions can absolutely propagate in less than a second, especially to a well-connected node like blockchain.info. Because cheating in the manner I am describing is possible even with longer propagation times as long as they are somewhat predictable I will not argue this point, however.

---

The order in which you saw the last transactions is completely meaningless as another node (one of your players trying to verify the fairness of your game, for example) might receive the same transactions in a completely different order than blockchain.info. As transactions do not have timestamps it is not possible to verify that the house did not pick a more favourable transaction that arrived at roughly the same time—although not last.

And even if transactions did have timestamps (again: they do not) it would be easy for an attacker to simply send several winning transactions to blockchain.info right before the winning ticket is chosen.

If you know the winner will be chosen in 10 seconds you can simply start broadcasting one of the 16 winning transactions we generated earlier every tenth of a second starting in 9 seconds. This virtually guarantees that the ticket you want is the winner.

---

Another player joining before the winner is chosen is not a problem as you now have an additional 10 seconds to start your calculations anew.


Neither luck nor magic have anything to do with this. Any run of the mill computer can make these calculations in the required time frame (10 seconds). In fact, I'm confident my mobile phone could do it.

If you cannot understand this simple concept you have no business running a Bitcoin gambling site.

It is even worse than that: Since unconfirmed transactions are used to calculate each game's outcome, any valid transaction can be broadcast even if it has no chance of ever being confirmed. This effectively makes the attack free provided one has enough dust spread over a sufficient number of addresses.

I first want to say i am very impressed on how much time you just spent attempting to make our undeniable provable fair system look any different than it is.

You are a highly skilled troll but the end of the day you are still just a troll. People can see you are 100% lying.

Lets take this last games hash


Mon Jan 04 2016 12:09:55 GMT-0800
 has won with 0.00080000 btc, had a winning chance of 88.89% and made 0.00009899 btc of profit.
LUCKY NUMBER: 1747

HASH: 1cdcc435be42f8c1819d0ad344d79453770c68f7aab53f3fa8d1de2e63635022

TOTAL POT: 90000 satoshi


now lets take that hash over to blockchain

Do you see this?
https://blockchain.info/tx/1cdcc435be42f8c1819d0ad344d79453770c68f7aab53f3fa8d1de2e63635022

Can you see the time stamp?
2016-01-04 12:09:53

Can you see the time stamp of the game?
Mon Jan 04 2016 12:09:55 GMT-0800


Now do you understand how the provably fair works?

Or are you going to continue to troll?

I care about Bitcoin gambling and its community and one could also argue that one has a moral obligation to expose potentially fraudulent deception. As a result I have no problem putting some effort into my posts. You on the other hand have ignored nearly all of the well-thought-out and detailed explanations of why your game is not provably fair, instead opting to stick your head in the sand and to resort to personal attacks.

Arguing with you is most likely futile, which I am well aware of, but I hope that potential players will be able to form an educated opinion on you and your site and avoid your game when they read this thread.



At the time of this writing it is Mon, 04 Jan 2016 06:27 GMT-0800 so your game could not have even occurred yet. I'll assume that is just a bug or a mistake and that the time you meant is 12:09:55 GMT instead.

Again, Bitcoin transactions do not have timestamps. It is impossible to determine when a received Bitcoin transaction was generated. What Blockchain.info is showing you is the time they received the transaction. This time can vary wildly from node to node. Take a look at the following table, which shows when different blockchain explorers received the transaction in question:


Notice that Biteasy received the transaction significantly earlier than Blockchain.info at 12:09:13, whereas BitPay and CoinPrism did not receive the transaction at all until it was included in the block at 12:21:14.

Even if you assume that Blockchain.info is an authoritative source of transaction timestamps (which they are not), there is no way for players to verify that you picked the last transaction before the end of the round or even that the transactions received were not generated by yourself in order to ensure a certain result.

The following three transactions were received by Blockchain.info at Mon, 04 Jan 2016 12:09:53 GMT:

• f52420afebdf771a39f8ee27b7600ed2217e0067842b1ead38b1e0b9ba8be77d (https://blockchain.info/tx/f52420afebdf771a39f8ee27b7600ed2217e0067842b1ead38b1e0b9ba8be77d)
• 1cdcc435be42f8c1819d0ad344d79453770c68f7aab53f3fa8d1de2e63635022 (https://blockchain.info/tx/1cdcc435be42f8c1819d0ad344d79453770c68f7aab53f3fa8d1de2e63635022)
• 880cf804f70a6a8064ba194dfc983fd733cd04a88727eec3ab3c148d8048da6e (https://blockchain.info/tx/880cf804f70a6a8064ba194dfc983fd733cd04a88727eec3ab3c148d8048da6e)

What makes any of them more valid than the next? How are players to verify that the house did not pick the one which benefits it the most?

Also, if the game ended at 12:09:55, why did you use a transaction that was received at 12:09:53, rather than one of the two transactions (1 (https://blockchain.info/tx/af39afff2bdbc79f326d7418b1794eb7d179e32a66b7750a89fc917496dc88ef), 2 (https://blockchain.info/tx/af39afff2bdbc79f326d7418b1794eb7d179e32a66b7750a89fc917496dc88ef)) that were received at precisely 12:09:55? And how can players verify that you did not broadcast the transaction you picked in order to ensure a win for a player you control?

The answer is that the deciding transaction and therefore the winning player may as well be chosen arbitrarily by the house. Your game is not provably fair. In fact it is worse than the previous one because now players have the opportunity to cheat other players if the house isn't already cheating.


You claim that it is not possible to generate transactions and calculate their ID without broadcasting them and that it is not possible to calculate a game's result using the last transaction's hash and the pot size, despite posting a code snippet that does just that yourself (granted, you seem to have only copied and adopted it from this thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=747589.msg8445890#msg8445890) rather than writing your own). It is safe to say that I have a better understanding of your "provably fair" system than you have yourself.

Feel free to address all of the points I have brought up this time. I doubt you will.

Dooglus is obviously just jealous of OPs success and wishes he thought of the raffle idea first so he wouldnt be stuck with a silly clam dice site.

OP you should challenge all these idiots to some sort of coding/what is provably fair battle , winner gets the others site.  All you need is a judge /escrow and a challenge.

I believe the inconsistency in the timestamp is only a mistake. I agree with twitchyseal to Dooglus is just trying to bully the guide who is a competitor of him also a newbie which is quite unfair. The raffle idea is brilliant and we should encourage him to improve and make it better instead of attacking him like that

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I almost fell of the chair laughing

Dooglus is now the bad guy  ??? he doesn't own a raffle site and I admit that I have no clue of the provably stuff you are talking about but I know that Dooglus Ryan and NLNico are real provably fair experts and now even a new one as it looks like namely @jlfvr

@jlfvr who are you? you are a newbie and it looks you are also a provably fair expert.

@Dooglus & @jlfvr why don't you leave this guy alone with his shitty behavior? let him learn the hard way and also his customers if they will not listen to your warnings

Yeah its clear they are just here to blow smoke in a attempt to make us look bad, i'm done playing their little troll games.

I bet they're all freaking out right now because they finally realized that we aren't shooting dice for clams anymore.  What good is something thats proveably fair if anyone can simply deny it? 

Undeniable Provable Fair or GTFO

OK, let me stop you there.

If you don't think it is possible to generate a transaction without broadcasting it then you really have no idea how Bitcoin works.

You never heard of offline wallets? Armory? Paper wallets?

This alone proves to me that you either don't have a clue what you are talking about or are deliberately being deceptive.

I'll leave you appropriate feedback as soon as I finish this post.


So you're saying each time someone bets, you have 10 seconds to figure out which of your pre-generated transactions would make you win? That's about a thousand times longer than you need.


Magic, luck, or cheating. Any of those 3 would work.


I don't think you are a super computer. I think you're probably either a child, an idiot, or a scammer. It's hard to say which. Possibly all three I guess.

You know exactly when the game is ending: 10 seconds after the last bet.
You know which transaction will let you win: the one which selects a ticket you bought.
You know how to push a transaction to blockchain.info (https://blockchain.info/pushtx) in less than a second and pick it.


Try making some arguments against me. Writing "false" after my seven valid statements just makes you look silly.


Wow, thanks for that. You're a lot more patient with this guy than I am. You actually made valid arguments supporting all seven of my statements, even though he probably didn't even read them.


True that.


Well, it has to be accepted by blockchain.info. I think they reject transactions with too-low fees. I'm not sure exactly what their rules are though, so maybe you could find a way of cheating for free. Either way if the 0.0001 BTC fee is the only thing stopping people from cheating I hardly think we can call it 'provably fair'.


I know you're joking, but do you think mr. raffle is going to have any idea?


How about a dance off? The one with the freshest moves is right.


I wanted to make sure he understood how his site wasn't provably fair and give him a chance to fix it before leaving appropriate feedback.

I don't want him to be able to claim that I left it just because I ran a competing site.

But as you can see above, he's just trolling. He won't respond to any technical points, either because he can't or because he is willfully ignoring them.

So now that it's clear that he doesn't want to fix his site I'll leave him the feedback and move on.


I'm not sure even that is strong enough.

I can't wait until they invent super-duper impregnable I-can't-believe-it's-not-rigged undeniable provable fair. With extra timestamps proving we picked a random transaction within 2 seconds of the end of the game to decide the winner. For fuck sake.

I am encouraging him to make it better, but he refuses to understand what is wrong with it.

His site has approximately zero volume. It isn't in competition with Just-Dice at all. I have no problem with competition. My problem is with deception. OP is lying about his site being provably fair. If he thinks he's able to get away with that without me pointing it out, he's mistaken.

I have explained over and over to you why you are wrong, i'm not playing your little troll games anymore.

No, you haven't.

Look at your 7 falses (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1312679.msg13443281#msg13443281), and see if you can justify them.

You asked me to prove your site wasn't provably fair. I broke it down into 7 steps so you could understand. You just wrote "false" next to each of them, when I'm sure even you could understand at least some of them if you tried your hardest.

You're clearly trolling, not me.

I have explained over and over to you why you are wrong, i'm not playing your little troll games anymore.

You said that already. Do you have any actual arguments? Saying "false" seven times doesn't count. :)

I just watched a game where the "lukcy" winner wasn't even one of the two people who were playing:

https://i.imgur.com/TeICAmx.png

I guess you have bigger problems than provable fairness.

Nice try to make a fake screen shot, i will not play your troll games.

False.

Seriously dooglus, give it up.  Raffle is out of your league.

This whole pushing the boundaries of proveably fair is just a hobby.  His bread and butter is the Autopilot Money Making Bot (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1312777.msg13431625#msg13431625) industry.

Heheh.

I just saw a game end with "Participants(0), winner: Zeb" but I didn't manage to screenshot it in time.

I'm not playing your troll games.

Try watching your own site for more than 5 minutes. It happens pretty regularly.

This one was interesting - the game ran when there was only one participant. At least he won, I guess:

https://i.imgur.com/y3muPsO.png

Neither screenshot is fake. Both these things really happened. Your inability to accept feedback and react to it is appalling. I'm not even asking for bug bounties. This is all free!

(You're welcome :) )

I will not play your troll games.

I found another possible bug.

The site says "But the final lucky number of each round is the one after 30-second is up" on the main page, and "The final lucky number is the one after 30-second is up" on the FAQ. But I just saw a game that ended less than 17 seconds after the first player bought a ticket.

Maybe it's just a bug in the text, and the 30 second rule is no longer in effect.

But either way you should fix it, and be explicit about which txid is actually used.

dooglus you should stop wasting time here. OP will just respond to your bug reports with "I will not play your troll games." again and again.

Maybe his developer will see my bug reports and fix the bugs, idk.

Here's a series of screenshots from a 15 second game. I had a clock running in the corner to make the timing clear:

18:23:13 - nobody played yet

https://i.imgur.com/gkKhUal.png

18:23:15 - the first ticket is bought

https://i.imgur.com/196bouq.png

18:23:18 - same guy buys another ticket

https://i.imgur.com/SHBdgAB.png

18:23:19 - someone else joins in

https://i.imgur.com/32o2Ghk.png

18:23:29 - ten seconds later and nothing has changed

https://i.imgur.com/c4NFhcs.png

18:23:30 - the game ends, just 15 seconds after the first ticket was sold

https://i.imgur.com/RvxjIoa.png

Edit: but the FAQ says the hash which is used is the one after 30 seconds:

https://i.imgur.com/MjysPtw.png

I will not play your troll games.

You could try verifying these bug reports for yourself. They are real. Your site is broken in multiple ways.

Bug reports are fake, i am not going to play your little troll games.

Good luck with your site. You are going to need it.

If you really want to report bug, please report to popman.he@gmail.com. This is not the right place. Thanks.

But if you are a hostile competitor, just do whatever you want.

I reported them in this thread, as you presumably already saw. I've tried my best to help but the site owner is an ignorant asshole so I'm out.

Thank god, hopefully we wont see anymore trolling now.

hhmmmm, I may consider playing your game if you make it provably fair....as it is now, I would not play.  If you ever update your game to be provably fair. let me know!! I thanks you sir

Our site is 100% provably fair please read our FAQ page on how it works. You can verify any game using the hash + total satoshi.

Thanks for your interest, hope to see you on the game.

We believed our provably fair system was 100%, but after going over dooglus complaints he did have some points. Even know it would be extremely hard to do what he was saying there still is a chance to do what he was saying. But that does not make our system 100% and we don't want to be anything less. So we have now added in a "Client Seed"

We believe we are now at 100%. 

I would like to ask dooglus to comment on this new added system.

Ohh i see, it is joke right?  Because you say is fair, but is not fair.

It is funny yes, but I think you could make it a real game if you make it fair. Good joke though :) thank you for sharing buddy :)

As i just said we added a  "Client Seed" If you can show us how it is not 100% provably fair. Please let us know in detail.

Okay, wonderful this is a good step. You are wise to have looked further into dooglus's comments, after operating the biggest bitcoin gambling site that existed I'm sure you pick up a thing or two. Good Luck with your site, and maybe attempt to be less hostile to helpful people in the future :)

I see you fixed one of the bugs I pointed out, even though you said it was fake:

https://i.imgur.com/1Ur4r1M.png

You've changed the 30 seconds to 10 seconds, matching how the game actually plays. Good job!

Unfortunately you've made the "provably fair" system even less provable than before. Now as well as your unverifiable transaction selection you have added in a millisecond timestamp. You can easily adjust the timestamp by a few milliseconds in either direction to get the result you want.

This is the third different failed attempt to make the site provably fair. It's good that you're trying, I guess, but you really ought to take some advice from someone who knows what they are doing. You are only making it worse.


Where can I set the client seed? I haven't noticed that feature.

Even with a client seed, the game isn't provably fair if *you* get to pick the *last* piece of data that affects the result.

The usual flow for provably fair is:

  1) site commits to a server seed by publishing its hash
  2) player picks a client seed
  3) game plays using the two seeds
  4) site reveals server seed

Note that the site's influence on the result happens only in step 1, and the player's influence happens after that, in step 2. That prevents the site from cheating.

On your site the flow is:

  1) players buy tickets (and possibly pick client seeds?)
  2) site picks a txid
  3) site picks a timestamp
  4) result depends on 1, 2, and 3

The site's inputs happen after the player inputs and so can account for them.

Note that in a multiplayer game it isn't good enough even if the client seeds were selected between steps 3 and 4, because we have no way of knowing whether the house is also a player.

I would refer you back to the pevpot thread if you want to see an example of how to make a lottery game provably fair such that even a player who is working with the house is unable to cheat.

In all honesty im starting to feel bad for the OP. It is pretty evident that he doesn't really know what he is doing or the knowledge he has is very limited. OP you should understand that the people here actually wanted to help you because in the current form (at least in the form the game was in) no one would really play it. So fixing these issues is something that could help you, if you want to be helped that is.

Can't believe someone is actually trying to call someone who ran one of the most profitable bitcoin/alt coin gambling websites a troll. Someone who is not willing to listen to bug reports or lie in the face of evidence that disproves provable fairness should be avoided at all costs. Who knows what the site owner is doing to 'game' the system.

The timestamp may not be a good choice. We are changing it to use participant's names.  

But just like allowing  player to pick/enter client seed. As player can be house, it just manipulates the result too.
There are just very few hash every second, sometimes, there is none. The outcomes of those hash are totally unknown. So the house cant pick a hash that can get a result in the range he desires.

That's a step in the right direction.


Yes, but so long as the names are fixed before the last element that affects the outcome is selected, that's OK.


We've been over this. You seem to be saying that because there are very few hashes per second your ability to cheat is somewhat limited, since you can only choose between a few different winners.

Do you see how even if there is limited possibility for cheating, that is still possibility for cheating, and so not provably fair?

And you still seem to be ignoring the fact that the house itself can broadcast a transaction itself that makes a house player win. The fact that there are very few transactions per second makes it easier to cheat, not harder.

Also, on an unrelated note, one of your recent changes broke something. It looks like the participant list isn't being cleared out between games:

https://i.imgur.com/XSnJAdR.png

I think you must have a really bad connection or something because everything you are seeing no one else is.

Anyways lets try this you guys first didn't like our provable fair system because the house had the hash+salt meaning we knew the winning number every time just like ryan at bustabit knows what its going to bust at every game.

Then we changed it to picking a hash from blockchain so no one knows the winning number until the game is over. But now you say we can broadcast to blockchain a tx id so we win. So an example this was a winning hash
https://blockchain.info/tx/e06e78a273ae4a2695812c0f57b52f629320abb92476cc6e27407e4ff5ddb3b6
Are you saying we were able to make that transaction?

Lets end this talk about what we can do to cheat the system, and you the so called expert tell us exactly in detail how you want the system to be and we will change it to your system.

We only want to be provably fair, all the talk of us being able to cheat needs to stop, and it sounds like you can tell us how.  

Wait a minute, you mean you believe you weren't 100% provably fair yesterday?

Do you understand that 99.99999% provably fair is the same as undeniably NOT provably fair? 

Shouldn't you be apologizing to all the people you were not telling the truth to since you opened?

If we were wrong then we were wrong.
  

If you have a suggestion on how to improve our provably fair then please let us know and we will use that system.

Was your site provably fair yesterday.


(This is a true statement, but not an appropriate response)

I use a satellite connection. I have a ping time between 600 and 700ms to pretty much anywhere. That's pretty bad, but I like living in the middle of nowhere, so it's a compromise I'm happy to put up with. My laggy connection has helped several sites diagnose intermittent bugs in their code, because it tends to exacerbate race condition type errors.


You're misrepresenting things there. First off, I don't represent any group. I'm speaking for myself. So your characterisation of "you guys" isn't fair. It looks to me like lots of individuals can see the problems with your site and are pointing them out to you. There's no need to see it as an us-against-them situation. Just read what people are telling you, and try to think about whether they make sense of not. This isn't a war.

The reason I don't like your "provable fair" system is because it isn't provably fair. The house can play against the other players and guarantee to win every time. I'm not saying you do, but you could. And that is what stops it being provably fair.

Ryan's bustabit site is a completely different case. The players on bustabit aren't playing against each other. They are all playing against the house. So the fact that Ryan knows the crashpoint ahead of time doesn't help him much at all. The only problem I see with his system is that there is a per-round profit limit. He could theoretically play his own game to "use up" some of the maximum profit and cause other players to cash out early. But he can't make them lose like you can on your site.


Yes. You can broadcast transactions. Everybody can.


I don't know if you made that particular transaction. I'm not actually online at the moment and my local bitcoind tells me "Invalid or non-wallet transaction id" so I can't look at the details. But that's irrelevant. You could have made another transaction at the same time with a txid which made one of your tickets win, and you could have selected that transaction instead. I don't understand why you can't see that you could do this.


I don't have a clear idea of how the system should be. It's a tricky technical challenge to make a multiplayer game provably fair. Ryan's pevpot is the only place that I have seen even really attempt it (and maybe an old lottery run by Dabs, but I don't remember if he ever launched it or not).

Ryan's solution is to use a bitcoin block hash from after the game ends, and to use a key-stretching function with a lot of iterations to make it impossible for anyone to know who won until an hour or two after the block is found. That works for him because he only has one draw per week. It wouldn't work for you, because your games last less than a minute and people don't want to wait to see if they won or not.

You can't use the traditional "(server hash) -> (client seed) -> play -> (reveal server seed)" technique, because you have multiple players, some of whom could be the house in disguise.

You can't hash the house pick the randomness at the end (like picking a txid, a time in milliseconds, or anything else non-repeatable) because the house at that point has perfect knowledge and can pick the randomness to make their own player win.

But stealing from Ryan's idea, I think a reasonable scheme could be something like the following:

  1) use some kind of client seed from each player (player's name + client-side random number, maybe?)
  2) use "the last txid after 10 seconds", or any other server-generated randomness
  3) hash those two together, then use a stretching function which takes 5 minutes to run to decide the winner

That way, you can't calculate which randomness to use in step 2 to win, because it takes 5 minutes, and you only have 10 seconds * number of ticket purchases at most (so maybe we need to use a longer stretching function when there are more tickets bought).

The key is that step 3 takes longer to run than the time you have available to pick the server-side randomness.

"Lukcy number"

@dooglus that wouldn't work for our site, as the members do not wait to wait 5 mins to find out if they win. Do you have any other suggestion? 

Well, so long as the calculation takes longer than the game I think it's OK. Most games are what, 30 seconds or less?

Maybe your members don't care if the game isn't provably fair. That's fine too. Just don't advertise it as provably fair when it isn't.

After the last person buys a ticket, its 10 seconds till the game grabs a hash from blockchain. But the timer can be reset at anytime up until the last second.

Could you explain how we could do it any different besides taking 5 mins to pick a winner?

Also the only claim to us not being provably fair is the house doing transactions, you can check any of the hashes used. most the time its in the $1000s i have even seen a 1.2 million dollar transaction i don't think anyone is going to send 1.2 million USD to rig a game where you make $0.04 lol

But we see your point where even if it is not economically profitable, and extremely hard to do there still is that chance. 

I hope to see you give us a better idea soon.

The monetary value of the transaction need not be large. As long as Blockchain.info accepts the transaction the attack could be performed with just a few satoshi as well.

Just make it so the calculation takes longer than the game takes to run.


You don't have to spend any money other than the fee - you can just send the million USD to one of your own addresses. And again, the sums involved don't matter. "provably fair" means that you can't cheat. It doesn't mean "we can cheat but why would be bother because it's only 4 cents".


I don't think it's even very hard. If there are only 3 transactions per second, I could send 10 transactions in that second and have a 10 in 13 chance of winning. That tips the odds massively in my favour if I do it every time. Currently it's not worth it because nobody's playing for anything but dust. But I guess you're hoping that sooner or later people will play the more expensive games, at which point you want to be sure that it's not exploitable - or people will exploit it, if only to show you that they can.

I still would like to see someone cheat the system, all the talk is about how we can cheat the system if it is so easy why isn't everyone coming to the site and cheating you could be making all most 2 BTC a day ($800+) a day?

The thing is taking the client seed determining what its going to end at, then broadcasting that exact txid on blockchain is too hard.

But you have pointed out how its not 100% full proof we understand that now. But i still challenge you to cheat the system your self (as you claim its so easy to do)  or give us a better method.

While the described attack is relatively easy, there is still some effort involved and considering your game's current revenue it is probably not worth the time of anyone that has the knowledge necessary to carry it out. But if your game gains any traction and your system remains in this form it is virtually guaranteed that someone will attempt to take advantage of it, if only to prove a point.

Another point to consider is that cheating the system is not possible for an external attacker in the event that the house is already cheating by picking beneficial transactions.

For me there are three reasons:

1) I wouldn't be cheating you, I would be cheating your customers. You still get your 1% cut. It's rude of you to invite us to try to cheat your customers.

2) I can't be sure that you're not already cheating. If you are, my attempts at cheating won't work.

3) Nobody is playing at a level that makes it worth while.


Since you started hashing the time in milliseconds into the result, it is no longer possible for players to cheat. Now only you can cheat.


I can't while you are picking the client seed so unpredictably. But you still could.

Edit: Earlier you said we should stop talking about whether you can cheat or not. But talking about whether you can cheat is exactly the same as talking about whether the site is provably fair. When you say "this site is provably fair" you are saying "there is no way we can cheat you without you being able to notice". Changing the thread title to be "99% provably fair" is meaningless. Nothing is 99% provable - it is either provable or it isn't. Just like you can't be 99% pregnant.

Could you explain in detail the steps for us to cheat? as you said we are picking the client seed so unpredictably?

  1. buy a ticket
  2. wait for the game to end
  3. check if you win if you use the current time in milliseconds as the client seed
  4. if you do, go ahead and win, else add 1 millisecond to the time and go back to step 3

Doing this you win every time. Sometimes you will use a timestamp that is 10 milliseconds later than the actual end time. That's 1/100th of a second. Nobody will notice.

I think the issue is like you said your connection is extremely slow, you are seeing the site not how everyone else is seeing it. Because soon as the game ends the winner is picked, there is no way to go back to step 3

Just uploaded this video so you can see how the site works in real time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RTjeQbHtDk&feature=youtu.be

When you said"
1) I wouldn't be cheating you, I would be cheating your customers. You still get your 1% cut. It's rude of you to invite us to try to cheat your customers.

I though you wanted to help the community? wouldn't you be helping them by proving your theory is right? 

Response to your edit:

Edit: Earlier you said we should stop talking about whether you can cheat or not. But talking about whether you can cheat is exactly the same as talking about whether the site is provably fair. When you say "this site is provably fair" you are saying "there is no way we can cheat you without you being able to notice". Changing the thread title to be "99% provably fair" is meaningless. Nothing is 99% provable - it is either provable or it isn't. Just like you can't be 99% pregnant.


The fact is your claims have not been proven, i have asked you to prove what your saying, but you have failed to do so.

You are no different then the house, if you think you can cheat the system then DO IT.

Once you have done that then you can say its not provably fair.

Or like i have asked before tell us some other way if you are so experienced in this field.

We would love to hear from you about how to take it from 99% to 100%

If you care like you say you do for the community then prove you can cheat the system, or tell us a different method. 
 

Steps 3 and 4 can run in a tight loop on your server in a tiny fraction of a second. Nobody will see it happening. It's not about my connection speed.


Everybody who is following this thread already understands what I am saying and sees that I am right. You have some kind of a blind spot and can't or won't see it. I don't need to steal from your customers to prove that what I am saying is right.


I have given more than enough information for any reasonably intelligent reader to see why your game isn't provably fair. There is no burden of proof upon me here.


I am very different than the house. I don't get to pick which txid to use, or which particular millisecond to claim the game ended during.


I can say it already, and have done. Many times. You don't understand, and I get that. I don't think you ever will. I think you should really find something else to do, or at least find somebody qualified to take care of the technical aspects of your site.


I don't think I can help you any more than I already have done. I'm sorry. Find your smartest techy friend. Sit down with them and have them go through both threads with you. Have them explain everything to you and make sure you understand it.

"Steps 3 and 4 can run in a tight loop on your server in a tiny fraction of a second. Nobody will see it happening. It's not about my connection speed."

For sure you connection is causing issues on your end. Did you watch the youtube video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RTjeQbHtDk&feature=youtu.be
Please let me know.


Everybody who is following this thread already understands what I am saying and sees that I am right. You have some kind of a blind spot and can't or won't see it. I don't need to steal from your customers to prove that what I am saying is right.

How is that a reply? i will ask you again.

When you said"
1) I wouldn't be cheating you, I would be cheating your customers. You still get your 1% cut. It's rude of you to invite us to try to cheat your customers.

I though you wanted to help the community? wouldn't you be helping them by proving your theory is right?  



I have given more than enough information for any reasonably intelligent reader to see why your game isn't provably fair. There is no burden of proof upon me here.

Thanks looks like you really care about "helping the community" like you said before.


I am very different than the house. I don't get to pick which txid to use, or which particular millisecond to claim the game ended during.

You can verify each millisecond and txid to make sure it's legit.


I can say it already, and have done. Many times. You don't understand, and I get that. I don't think you ever will. I think you should really find something else to do, or at least find somebody qualified to take care of the technical aspects of your site.


You have really only speculated if we broadcast a txid it would help us using a house account to win the pot. The fact is still the winning millisecond + the winning txid would have to be known. i see what your saying we could know the outcome. But you would have to make a real bitcoin transaction (costing $0.04), and generate the txid that would make our house account win, all this would have to be within seconds.

 Everyone is free to check every txid used. It does not make any sense to do all this, hope to get lucky and the txid is broadcasted at the exact second we want it to. What if someone buys a ticket at the last second, resets the clock, now we need to do another $0.04 fee to rig it?  to do all that, atleast at the time being when the average profit is less then a transaction fee it makes no sense to rig it.  

So maybe you can be less hostile.


I don't think I can help you any more than I already have done. I'm sorry. Find your smartest techy friend. Sit down with them and have them go through both threads with you. Have them explain everything to you and make sure you understand it.

See your not here to help anyone your hear to make other people look bad.

Why not just simply say how we should pick the winner and we will use your method.  

I thought you were the expert on this?

Many companies pay good money to incentivize reporting security vulnerabilities rather than abusing them. dooglus and a bunch of others have been very patient (far more than you deserve in my opinion) and given you very detailed and precise explanations of your site's flaws without demanding anything in return. And now here you are actually complaining that they came to you instead of trying to steal from your customers. This is just precious.

 like i have been saying you can't cheat the system or they would. What they are saying is like 1 in a million chance. If they could cheat the system so easy they would just to prove the fact.

I have already listed my reasons for not stealing from your customers:

  1) I'm not a thief
  2) It doesn't work if the site itself is already stealing from them
  3) The amounts involved are currently too small to bother with
  4) With the millisecond timestamp in place only the site can cheat, not the players
  5) I have no reason to prove anything to you

The site can not cheat with the millisecond timestamp if we did all the members would notice.

Just like your dice site people will notice if you fake the hash.

Thanks for admitting no one can cheat the site, its about time you start telling the truth. 

LOL it is your truth!

I just can't believe such empty answers and I am really begging now that dooglus will stop helping you because guys like you should learn the hard way

If I ask you the time to the nearest millisecond but you add on 3 milliseconds to the true answer, do you think I would notice?

I wouldn't. 3 milliseconds is too small a difference for anyone to notice.

I don't know why you can't understand this.

I did not say that "no one can cheat the site", I said "only the site can cheat, not the players".

Ok we changed from milliseconds to using the players names. So there is no way for us to cheat like you are claiming we can.

Enjoy

*sigh*

He did not understand a single thing about all what we said before.

And before we see an username like '6a9MCc26PF5x2' playing games. x)

*sigh*

its the bustabit troll please go away.

Thanks

Mr. Raffle,

I wonder if you are mature enough to answer these three questions....

Is btc-raffle provably fair right now?

Was btc-raffle provably fair 3 days ago?

Was btc-raffle provably fair 1 week ago?

I can take this one for you: no, it isn't. The last input that affects the result is "the last txid we saw at blockchain.info". We need to take the site's word on which txid they saw last. And even if they tell the truth we have no way of knowing whether the txid they use was specially selected to make a particular ticket win, either by the site or by a player.


No it wasn't, and several people told them it wasn't. There's no excuse for them "not knowing". They just didn't want to believe it.


As above, it wasn't and several people told them it wasn't.


pevpot.com is a PVP type gambling game done right.

I don't know whether you are intentionally being obtuse or are just incapable of understand the concepts involved.


I have done. Make the result calculation take longer than the duration of the game so that nobody, not even you, can know the outcome when you select and publish the txid.

We can not know the out come. As i have said the site picks the winning number from blockchain + the client seed making it provably fair.

Please do no get back into trolling the thread i thought we were past that. 

Every time I point out something wrong with your site you tell me I'm trolling you and then attempt to fix it.

Why do you think this time is any different?

Try to understand:

When the game is over, you know all the player names, the total amount spent on tickets, and have a list of all the transactions which appeared on blockchain.info in the last second. You can check the result for all of those transactions and see which of them if any makes you win. You can then claim that one was the last one you saw, and nobody can prove you're lying.

Get it?

When you say dumb shit like that it makes me think you are trolling.

I am clearly talking about what happens at the end of the game, when you publish the results. You have the ability to select the most favourable of several outcomes without detection.

I'm sorry you are incorrect, you also can verify every game played with the client seed and blockchain.

Dooglus,

Please show Mr. Raffle how someone with a reputation like yours that owns a bitcoin gambling site and is confident that it's proveably fair answers these questions. 


Is justdice provably fair right now?

Was it 3 days ago?

Was it 1 week ago?

My site no longer accepts Bitcoin. It's CLAM only these days.

Just-Dice is provably fair for players and always has been. There is no way I can cheat the players without them being able to detect it.

It might surprise you to hear that it *isn't* provably fair for investors. I can cheat the investors (by playing against them using the server seed) and they can't prove anything.

Sorry I can't give you the tidy "yes, yes, yes" answer that you were looking for. :)

Very, very foolish words man.


Can you show an example please?

I am particularly interested in how I can verify that the txid you use is in fact the last txid shown on blockchain.info ten seconds after the last ticket was purchased.

Very, very foolish words man. Clearly you have no idea how our site works.

I think you should stick to your copy and pasted dice site. Super original idea

You tell me I can verify the rolls.

I ask how.

You tell me I don't know how it works.

So tell me! I claim it isn't possible to verify that you picked that txid fairly, but you claim it is - so how?

Re. my original idea, I invented the idea of the crowd-funded bankroll which most dice sites then copied, so yes, it was very original. But that's offtopic here and only serves to further indicate that you don't know your stuff.

If you don't want to take interest and prove your projects or efforts are real and fair then it is more than clear that you made this thing just to make some quick bucks until you get caught but sadly it didn't took long.I also remember that bitgog' website had the same betting system and they are gone now.

Ok i have to point this out. I just saw a post by you saying you can 100% cheat people with your crowd-funded bankroll. So you invented one of the best scams in bitcoin gambling sites?

Yes Or No?

I have proven its provably fair this dooglus guy who runs a copy and pasted site who knows nothing about what he is talking about, is the only person claiming different.

He also only talks he has never shown any proof he right.

Oh an he also buys and creates other accounts.

I can't agree to that because he is one of the most talented security dev on forum right now and of course he will search and find loop.But yes this is the benefit you get when you are early adopters and i don't think J-D would have been here if there was one investor like doog himself and questions about the server seed long back.

He is showing the possibility of you scamming and you should prove it wrong.

Why this,why do you care about anything he does ? Be a Man and make your things right.

Care to show that post? As far as scamming goes, he held 50k BTC in the past and paid out with no issues. He even switched to Clams( a worthless altcoin at that time)as he felt he couldn't handle risking such a huge amount, invested by others.
AFAIK doog is the creator of one of the first dice sites to use provably fair, and he has pointed out faults in many provably fair systems designed to cheat players. So yes he knows what he is talking about
What more proof would you like? Its you who can cheat using the current implementation of your so-called "provably fair", not the users, so that doog can show a practical implementation on the site
Geez, stop FUDding will you?

I don't know of a way to make "investing" in a dice site provably fair. It's a shame, but provable fairness is tricky, as you are discovering. I have never made a secret of the fact that investing in a dice site requires you to trust the site's operator.


You have proven nothing. You don't know what proof is. You make false statements and when challenged on them you ignore it or change the subject.


There is nothing on my site that is copy and pasted. A few sites copied my site which is maybe why you are confused, but I didn't copy anything. I created it from scratch.


Everyone with a basic understand of the concepts agrees with me. It's you who is the out on a limb here.


I've no idea where you got that from. I've never bought or sold an account of any kind that I can think of. You have an uncanny knack of getting things wrong, don't you!


He's referring to this:



Wow! Someone in this thread knows some history! :)

So can we get back on topic?

How can I verify the txid you use is really the last one you saw?

For example, here:


Is there any way I can check that there was no transaction listed on blockchain.info between 05:13:29 when that one showed up and 05:13:31 when the game ended?

I thought you might like to know that the ticket ordering isn't at all random.

Tickets are sorted into descending order of price, and then ascending order of last purchase time.

Here's the code that does it client-side, from raffle.js (http://btc-raffle.com/js/raffle.js):

I have not been paid $0.16 which I won 3-4 days back in the chat contest and you sent me a reply 2 days backk that you'll send the payment. Please tell me if there is any issue as the amount is too small.

Where do you get the txids from that you flash up one per second during the 10 second countdown?

I just saw one flash up that didn't appear on blockchain.info until over a minute after the game was over.

The first 3 txids you flashed up, with their blockchain.info timestamps were:

  21:13:46: 7759136e7df90ee330ab76831297726e2744870d307012dcaf4ab283d96c8f76 (https://blockchain.info/tx/7759136e7df90ee330ab76831297726e2744870d307012dcaf4ab283d96c8f76)
  21:15:04: 380d0e1201b9b8c824ee76d5587dbadccb11df542554b86030693af82cdb9acc (https://blockchain.info/tx/380d0e1201b9b8c824ee76d5587dbadccb11df542554b86030693af82cdb9acc)
  21:13:48: ca59f4f2db0da8a83c903a4512c8df292ed05b6861e8cd958097da86fe995c9d (https://blockchain.info/tx/ca59f4f2db0da8a83c903a4512c8df292ed05b6861e8cd958097da86fe995c9d)

Where did that 2nd one come from? blockchain.info had not seen it at the time.

At the end of the game you sent me:

This one is even worse:


Check out txid 7815d906e350297a03f64a0df531c7822d98fb6d5d0b3062c328254d6378f9d6 (https://blockchain.info/tx/7815d906e350297a03f64a0df531c7822d98fb6d5d0b3062c328254d6378f9d6):

https://i.imgur.com/hllm6Zy.png

You used a transaction to decide the winner of a game at 21:20 but the transaction wasn't seen by blockchain.info until it got into a block at 21:31...

Can you explain this?

He can't even do maths correctly.
I won't be surprised if he answer to you 'stop trolling' instead of a good relevant answer.

I mean, when there's 3 players in, their luck are 33.33% (which gives a total of 99.99% and cannot be 100%..) But, it's shown as 100% and they give a BONUS amount of tickets to the third player... (cheat & unfair?)

lol

Mr. Raffle, why do you feel it necessary to preface your answer with "in my mind"

Dont you see, if you can't disprove the theory that someone could cheat - you can't prove that your system is fair.

Has anyone brought up the fact that it's obviously bots playing on his site 24/7, although they seem to be denying it?

I'm pretty sure too that they are bots.

I came up with an explanation for why I was seeing the weird results I was seeing yesterday: the site doesn't use blockchain.info at all to get its feed of new transactions on the network. Instead their run their own node, and watch have that report the most recently seen transaction when they need it.

They were only telling us "you can verify by watching blockchain.info" because that is *a* way of watching the transactions, not *the* way that the site uses. They were assuming that everyone seems the same transactions in the same order with the same timing, which obviously isn't the case. And so their system is further from provably fair than I previously thought to be the case. The site can simply pretend not to have seen a transaction which gives a result they don't like, and we can't prove otherwise.


Well, to be fair there is no way of dividing an power of 10 by 3 equally.

Their client-side code which calculates the ranges has a special case saying that if any range ends with 9999 then set it to be 10000:


You can always be the last player by being the last user to buy the smallest number of tickets.


I wasn't mentioning it because although it does seem likely there's no way of proving it.

Either way it seems that OP has abandoned this thread, and possibly the site too. The promised giveaway in the site's chatbox seems not to have happened, and the guy complaining in this thread about a withdrawal not happening went unanswered.

Least successful scam ever?

Edit: sorry, that was rude. I'm frustrated that I spent so much time on this thread trying to help and it was all for naught.

I will answer for the OP :)

Please do no get back into trolling the thread i thought we were past that.

You're right. I edited my post.

No please, allow me to answer for OP.

Dooglus is obviously jealous and worried about competition for his site.

Lets start with this.

I'm frustrated that I spent so much time on this thread trying to help and it was all for naught.

You are so full of shit, you have only spent time telling us why its not fair. You run a dice site, you did not come up with anything!!! you got your provably fair with copy and paste, just like the dice site idea is copy and paste. Your a joke.

How many hours have you spent on this thread and looking at our code? 10? 20? more?

The fact is you are only here to bash us, if you are soooooo great at all this how about you spent 10-20 hours researching a way to make the site provably fair?

The fact is you wont. Because your a competitor. Because you are not skilled enough to come up with anything besides copy and paste.

Oh and your claim to us not being provably fair has not been proven. (But im sure you have an excuse to why you cant prove it)

Serious question.  How old are you?

Are you mad? You seem mad. Your whole post was an insane rant full of factual errors and emotional outbursts.

Serious question. Are you on your period?

(Also, maybe you could try addressing some of my points - like the example I posted where you used a txid that never even appeared on the site you tell us to use to verify our plays until 10 minutes after the game was over)

Nah bro im not, you mad i called you out for not knowing anything besides copy and pasting, a provably fair and the dice site idea????


I think your butt hurt about me thinking of a better outside of the box idea, then some dumb ass dice site. And your too weak to do anything besides pick apart our system with your unproven theory.  Why don't you use all the time spent to tell us a better more provably fair system.

You choose to spend your time looking for flaws. That to me says your just butt hurt. 

I already addressed this. My site was the first dice site you could invest in. It inspired a hundred clones. To call it "copy and paste" is ignorant.


I don't think it is a better idea. From the player's point of view they have more control of the odds at a dice site. On your site I buy tickets and don't know what my chance of winning is going to be until the game is over. At a dice site I can pick whatever chance of winning I want.


I have tried explaining what is wrong with your system and made suggestions about how to fix it. I have asked how to verify various example games and you have been unable to answer. If your game was provably fair, you would be able to tell me how to verify those games, but you can't.


I'm just kind of ADD or something. It's what I do. Some people like to watch men fighting each other or throwing balls around. I like to find flaws in websites. Yours has been an unexpectedly rich source of them.

You can't be serious an. Dooglus has enough and probably the most abundant users for his site and dude remember
he was the one who started the first gambling site. So, at least think twice before you say he is jealous.

If he's really 12 or 13 years old, which seems to be the case, what he's done is really quite impressive.  Best advice I can think of though would be to just walk away from that mess of a site you made and not spend another second on this forum for a few years  In  the meantime, stay in school, make friends irl, go outside, touch a boob etc.  When you return we can all laugh at what a retard you were back in 2016.

This would also be a good way to actually make dooglus jealous of you.

To be honest, I think this site has a maximum of 3 different users per weeks. And once they lost everything, because by reading the whole thing down, OP is obviously cheating and they never comes back.

The stats showed on the site are obviously fake too.

P.S.: dooglus, I did not know you were a celebrity  :o . Seems like you spent so much time trying to explain to the OP here  :-\  And now it looks like wasted time unfortunately. :(

It was kind of fun, but ultimately frustrating. He learned nothing.

And its official, OP is from India, most likely just joining IT and thought Bitcoin is a goldmine.

Since I did not receive any reply from OP about my payment from the chat-box giveaway, I have left you a negative rating.