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A while back I sent a customer a bunch of my hand-poured ingots. They were literally the first ones I ever made. He told me that he was going to have them assayed (assessed for silver content). I was fine with that because I had nothing to hide. The bars I sold him were [what I thought to be] of .99 purity. However, since he was having them professionally assayed, I sent along a silver coin with him that would make up the difference if each of my bars were only 92.5% (impossible I figured because I was only melting 925 scrap, and I added plenty of silver shot to the mix). Just now he says he has had them assayed, and that some are even below .925. Interesting, though that he can not provide any documentation of having this assay done. He lives locally so he said "you can come some place with me and I'll show you". Sure, I
d love to go to your buddy's pawn shop.
The bottom line here though is that even with the purity being what he claims it to be, he has ended up with more silver than if all of the bars were .99-because remember I sent that coin (a US Barber Half). What I think he is upset about is realizing that there's not as big a market for hand-poured ingots and that he wasn't able to flip the super-deal he got. Because now he wants to "return" the bars for something "professionaly marked" or for US Coins. I am not the customer service department at Macey's-I don't do returns.
Since he got what he paid for (PLUS some) in terms of silver, I told him to leave me alone otherwise it is harassment, and that if he shows up on my property I will call the police. I won't mention his username because hopefully I won't have to.
But this has led me to decide one more thing: so people can't claim they did an assay (which costs about $60-interesting when you're buying less than 4 ounces of silver) and my purity was off, I am going to video tape each ingot I make, from showing you the 925 hallmark to stamping it.
Also, just because I'm curious, this all seems like BS to you guys too, right? I'm not going crazy?

Short of an XRF analysis (which provides a print out), there is no definitive way to determine purity.  I also doubt that most pawn shops carry this type of equipment due to its high costs.  It definitely sounds like a case of buyers remorse and is also further compounded by the recent drop in silver price.  Not going to name drop and distract from your thread, but I am a member of a Silver web forum and a few of the members there sell their own homemade ingots (.999) for a premium over spot.  Sometimes the premium is as much as $6 and oz over spot (more then ASE and Maples).  Don't let one bad seed get you down.  Crafting your own ingots is an art form, and it looks like you have been undervaluing your own efforts.  Once you start making custom molds you will be able to increase your premiums.

side note:  Do you use graphite or steel molds?  I am in the process of designing a mold in CAD/CAM and am going to be getting it milled out at a local machine shop and am trying to decide on a base metal.

Buying those ingots from someone who admitted they are just getting into this and stated that, the buyer should of understood the risk when he purchased it. 


I have a friend that owns a pawnshop and it is very unlikely they have the type of equipment described. 

I've bought coins through johnniewalker and he's been exceptional to deal with. I've also bought sterling hand-poured ingots from ebay. I think they are slightly harder to resell, but I think that's more on the lack of a typical branding stamp. I'm pretty sure most of them are legitimate from what I've seen, though no doubt there can be fakes.

I think some videos of the melting/casting process would be awesome, even for education's sake.

If you want silver that will trade hands in a heartbeat, get Silver Eagles. But if you want a much lower premium on spot, old coins or hand-poured bullion is a great option.

Johnniewalker: I know nothing of the process for melting down and casting the silver, but do impurities come to the surface that you take off? Or do you just increase the concentration with the pure shot?

Would also be interested in hearing more about melting/casting/purifying, as I've been gathering/collecting scrap .925 for a while now (have about maybe a pound?) and was going to look at getting a mold made. Still working on my casting mark, though.

I am the customer stated. The assay was done using an XRF gun(call San Diego Jewelry buyers corner of 6th and E and ask them if they have one if its hard to believe, I was there last night and they will remember me most likely).

Would suggest anyone else who has purchased silver from johnniewalker get it assayed. Will respond in more detail if needed later but for now.

- His thread stated "Up for sale are four .99 Silver ingots that I smelted......" weighing .87, .97, 1 and 1.1oz. Only after some questions did it turn out they weren't troy ounces but standard ounces (red flag I should have listened to). What person who spends the time to learn how to smelt silver doesnt know SPOT is ozt?
- I received 4 ingots ranging from .925 to .88 pure. Weight was as described in standard ounces
- The barber was included in case he made a "slight mistake". I wouldnt call bars that range from sterling to worse than coin silver a slight mistake.
- Now I have bars which are mismarked for purity and weight in oz's (vs ozt) as well as very widely swinging silver content.

Either he has no idea what he is doing and lost silver during smelting or he is a scammer.

I think I was being very reasonable. I told him repeatedly we could work this out and it didnt need to go public.

- First he said it was impossible
- then he offered me a pre64 quarter to make up for it,
- then told me to just go sell it to a pawn shop (shop that assayed it said they wouldnt take it at any price, they pay 80% spot normally),
- then he begged me not to go public,
- then plead poverty
- then said if I send him it all back he will melt it all down into a 925 ingot (why would I do that when he has proven he couldnt smelt what he promised previously)
- then said he just got sold fake cubans and to "have mercy"
- then he started getting angry and started spouting nonsense about if I come to his house he will call the police (I can't make any sense of this because nothing about it was mentioned).
- then he says to never message him again or "it is harassment" and he will be happy to share our old messages with the mods.

Keep in mind I messaged him three times in all this; First to tell him the assay results, second in response trying to secure a resolution and third declining his offer to melt me a 925 bar(a one line response). Then he exploded about harassment and me coming to his house(seems upset he got his hand caught in the cookie jar).

He seems like a crazy person to me at this point. Way to ruin your rep over a few bucks kid.

Again, I am happy to discuss a resolution if you are so inclined. Otherwise I will continue to defend my position.

The options I am willing to entertain are;

1. full refund (you come meet me to pick up or pay for shipping)
2. replacement of silver weight I thought I bought in a recognizable format like pre64 coins, mint bars, etc(3.5911ozt as I would keep the barber). Again, I will meet you to switch unless you want to pay shipping

Regards.

screenshot of for sale thread

http://s12.postimage.org/vgyuv0nnh/image.png

This was an XRF gun with a screen on top. Handheld model and no printout.

Agree handmade ingots that are well done can bring a premium if they are well done.

I weighed the risk and placed trust in him as we all do in an internet sales. I don't see how you can melt .925, add silver shot to it and have it come out 88% pure but dont know about smelting. So either he wasnt being truthful or something got screwed up in the process. I have offered to meet at a shop to get it assayed. He can even choose if he thinks I am so nefarious as to rig it before hand.

The shop I went to did have the equipment and this can be verified with a quick call

To be fair, he was pretty good to deal with until the angry rants when I broached the subject of the goods he sold not being what he described.

Never said these were fakes. Just sold as .99 and marked as .99 when they aren't

Thank you everyone for your support. The bottomline is this: The ingots you purchased are the first ones I ever made. I TOLD you that. I melted 925 scrap and added .99 shot-so it is really hard for me to believe a bar tested under 925. Also, I told you (have messages) that I was nervous about the bars being under .99 purity, because I was NEW to this. So, I INSISTED on throwing in a Barber Half Dollar. The Barber Half contained enough silver to compensate silver-content wise even if the bars WERE 925. I purposely went above and beyond to ensure this same thing would not happen.
You come back to me now, probably about a month later saying you want to return this item? You left good feedback for me somewhere else. YOU GOT MORE SILVER THAN YOU PAID FOR W/ME INCLUDING THE BARBER HALF-AND YOU WANT A RETURN? THE ANSWER IS NO. I will not conduct further business with you, either. By the way, who assays (an assay costs about $60) about 4oz of silver? And you have no documentation from this place?
I'm not letting one bad apple ruin the whole tree. And I appreciate the person who said this is an art form-it is. By the way, I use[d] a graphite mold but I hated it, switched to cast iron. Anyways, I will not cease melting my silver. What I will do-because I have absolutely nothing to hide (and thats what I loved about this site-everyone I've dealt with besides this guy has been a smooth, pleasant transaction) is FILM THE POURING OF EVERY SINGLE INGOT. YOU WILL SEE THE HALLMARKED SILVER DOWN TO THE INGOT BEING SANDED, TUMBLED, AND POLISHED.
To "African Hunter": Unfortunately you live locally, and quite frankly I'm afraid you'll show up at my doorstep. If you do this, I will call the police. Our business has long since been done. Please don't contact me in any way/shape/form again.

https://i.imgur.com/4t0Uu.jpg



so are people skills.  and business sense.

looks like you were in a bad spot -- unable to refund the money so you became defensive.  my bet is that had you looked a solution existed and both problems would have been resolved.  if you have molds that say .999 but you can't deliver .999, then you have a bigger problem than a customer wanting to return an order.   with .999s selling for over spot, you had the opportunity to see if someone else would buy the .88 ingots and have you give it another try.

you probably still have that chance, if you fix the attitude.

I actually had about $2500 worth of metal assayed. If you act professionally, are wearing a suit and carrying a few grand in bullion nearly any reputable shop will assay for free if they think they may be able to buy it. If you role in wearing shorts and a t shirt with 4oz's of shady silver they will either tell you to get lost or charge you. The fee is to keep schmucks out of their place of business asking to get a piece of costume jewelry tested.


This isn't a true statement as we made a deal at X.X btc for a certain amount of silver. Coming back now and saying, "yeah well based on spot you got the silver you paid for" is a false argument because our deal (and your ad incidentally) was for under spot; I wouldn't have bought it otherwise. If we were talking a percent or three That's one thing, but up to 12% low is quite another; especially based on your promise that only Sterling and .999 shot went into the crucible.

Your attitude is losing you more business than you could possibly imagine. You are a youngster and seem to be new to business in general so here is a free tip. The way you treat your customers when there are issues is directly related to how successful you will be. An ethical businessman would be in contact with your other buyers to alert them to the fact that some assayed samples have shown low and offering to make it right

Instead you create this thread to try and both discredit me and shame me into being quiet about it lest I get perceived as a scammer trying to extort you. Sorry but that crap doesn't fly in my world.

Even with your piss poor attitude, if you want to take a moment of self reflection to realize what's going on here would be willing to discuss a resolution. A little maturity will take you far in these situations.

Otherwise how about this, 25 btc escrowed bet on the table that the four bars will not average over .925 (overall, so if 2oz is .95 and 2oz is .85 then overall avg would be .9 and I would win) when assayed by a 3rd party. If you are so sure I am a scammer, that's easy money. You could buy that bitmit scrap you want plus a bunch of silver shot. I am sure we can find a reputable third party to pick a location locally.

Will leave it to the community/mods to determine if this deserves a scammer tag or not.

Also would be happy to post all our pm's with your consent for people to judge for themselves

Regards.

Ps- I have never insinuated, said or implied I would show up at your doorstep nor have I threatened you in any way so please stop with the inflammatory chatter. I don't even have your address anymore beyond the city you live.

Your main assertions don't have merit but I am not going to post our pm's without consent. Also not trying to get anything extra from you, just what is owed.

Was hoping for a little decorum but so be it, sad to see someone who has drive and probably had potential throw it away over a few dollars...

Going to sleep on it and then decide whether to request a scammer tag for you. If anyone other than johnniewalker has thoughts on the matter would welcome your feedback, here or by pm.

Thanks.

Ps, I screen capped all relevant threads so wouldn't go back and try to clean them up

I suggest the XRF gun and the method of using it be validated using several samples of similar thickness and known purity. Of course, the person performing measurements should not be aware of the actual purity of each sample. Samples should be rotated several times in random fashion.

The outcome of such validation will make it easier for both parties to pinpoint the source of the problem and correct it.

WOW.  I'm sorry that this happened to you africanhunter, but I'm glad it did.  I now know TO NEVER buy off this guy.

How to hell can you add .99 silver to .925 to make it .99 ?  IT'S MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE!

One more thing. I saw in your other thread you have enough pre64 coins to make an equivalent trade. If you are going to melt them anyway, why not just take the already melted bars back and give me coin equivalent. You would make this go away and get bars back you could just throw in the melt.

I feel this offer is eminently reasonable personally and think any neutral party would tell you the same. I get no benefit over you, silver price doesn't matter as it is silver weight for silver weight, plus you get to salvage your rep and not have a disgruntled customer out there. Will we ever do business again? Probably not but that will be on your end not mine (I would consider it on certain items with certain circumstances).

Sleep on it and give it some thought. As I have said multiple times, this didn't and doesn't have to go this way.

Are you guys serious? The sale I made with "African Hunter" was for my INGOTS ONLY . In case this EXACT thing happened, I sent the buyer a Barber half dollar to make up for all of the silver missing in case I couldn't achieve purity. So, basically, if the ingots were .999 the buyer would have less silver than he does now, because I wouldn't have sent him the half dollar. I have messages if anyone would like. But I believe this is merely someone thinking they got a great deal that they could flip-but they couldnt.

If I were you, I would just take it back. There is no use having all this conflict with a customer, when you can probably find another one easy. Since there can't be any official disputes or chargebacks, there has to be an honor system where both buyer and seller deal respectfully, and try to take the high road if a problem comes up (not threatening them with the cops)

I encourage readers to look at the thread (screen capped above) and they will see this was not for "ingots only" without a promise of quality; Nor was there any mention of "hey, these may not turn out pure". It was specifically posted as .99 silver being sold below spot so now saying, "he got equivalent silver at spot" is disingenuous. Also his prices were advertised 5% under spot only if they were Troy ounces, which they weren't (making his posted prices about 5% over spot since a standard ounce is roughly .91 troy) so it was at best a mistake and at worst trying to scam someone who doesn't know better.

If you really think about it, if we made an agreement for 10 ounces of pure gold for $1(extreme case I know but illustrates a point). Then the gold turned out to be 90%, it would still be a breach of the agreement as even though I made tons on the deal, it was not what was agreed to and I did not make what I had calculated in order to agree to the deal.

Combine this with assayed purity which doesn't seem possible based on his promises (publicly and privately) of only melting sterling and .999 silver shot, his belligerent rants and unprofessionalism. The picture is pretty clear to me (and apparently many others who have voiced support).

I didn't quote "African Hunter"'s last reply because the quoting was getting ridiculous. If anyone wants to see, I have plenty of messages telling "African Hunter" that these may not be of .99 purity. He knew they were the first ingots I ever cast. I am a numismatist also, and so I picked a Barber Half Dollar (11.25 grams of pure silver) to throw in. In messages, "African Hunter" kept repeating that he would buy the Barber from me. But I said no, I am including it in case the purity of the ingots is not .99. Now, I sold "African Hunter" a .87, .97. 1 ounce, and 1.1 ounce (and they were overweight...like the 1.1 was 1.13 or something). That way I figured that even if the ingots were of .925 purity (since this is the scrap I melted), "African Hunter" would have the Barber and thus the additional 11.5 grams of silver. I would like "African Hunter" to say that he got less silver than he paid for, since he did notpay for the additional 11.5 grams of silver. That was me being careful, trying to ensure this exact same thing didn't happen.
Now, what I believe to be the case is that "African Hunter" thought he could take the great deal on silver he got from me, turn around, and sell it for more. But, people are hesitant to buy silver not minted by any professional agency/institution/etc. I keep them myself for long-term investment. If you want to buy silver that you can easily trade, I suggest the US mint.
And for the user that said I threatened to call the police-I only did so out of fear because "African Hunter" happens to live locally. I do not know him or his temperament-he is just some guy on the internet. If it became a matter of my safety, I most certainly would have called the police.

Don't reply to your customers in all-caps or bold font. Just don't.

I feel you on the caps, and I regret that. Its like how they say to wait a day to cool off before you do anything. Bold I would only use for emphasis.

OK all, I am done. Think it is pretty clear what happened here for anyone who cares to read through the mess of stream of thought posts from my friend above without line breaks.

Good Luck JW and I hope you learn something from this though I fear it will be lost on you for some time to come.

PS- If anyone wants to send me a donation for warning them about JW and saving them all the time/trouble feel free :) 1Hu2aw2vwp5BUfUfFS4AvuAwLutNGxHqMP

For posterity:

Op:


Post2;


Post 3 which he edited after the fact (post screenie later);


4;


5(believe also edited but didnt cap it);


6

LOL WARNING them? Are you that pathetic? You realize you've been arguing over about $5 in silver (which you already have)? Hold on, let me dig through some old messages.

Me on December 4: Just one thing-I know these are .99 and having another person in possession of them scares me. No offense to you (of course not, you're a guy on the internet), but there are plenty of people who would come back saying "It isn't .99" and I would have no recourse.
Also, the reason I priced these so low is because I need to sell them fast. If all you could give me right now was 50% I might have to pass. But I'll tell you this-as a man and as a screenshot of this message, if the bars are not what I say they are, contact me and I will make it right (in-case theres no discrepancy-which there isn't, but I don't want it to be .9899 or something like that) after Christmas, when I''m not broke. Or before-I have more silver coins.

Even though no evidence was presented, apparently the bars were not what I said. My recourse: Sending the Barber Half Dollar. Case Closed.

I'm sorry, but I can't resist. Here we have another genius. Are you familiar with the melting temperature of silver? How about copper? zinc? 92.5% silver contains impurities, like the aforementioned. They have a higher melting temperature than silver does. Therefore, they don't get melted, and they don't get poured into the mold. A little more clear for you now, Bill Nye?
No matter what African Hunter or anybody says, I'm done with this thread. African Hunter made his signature "Happy with me exposing JohnnieWalker? Donate Bitcoins Here: xx" over about $5 worth of silver, which this entire argument was about. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that you're upset because you can't market my ingots like you can professionally minted ones. Thats why they were offered at the price they were. You thought you found a great deal and could capitalize on it, but you weren't so lucky. You have more silver than if every one of those bars was .99, and you didn't even pay for it. If anyone has any doubt: literally the value at hand here is less than $5. Who would go to so much work and spend so much time arguing over $5.

The fact that you don't understand this isn't about "$5 of silver" (haven't done the math so can't say if you are right or wrong) speaks volumes. It is about you fraudulently listing and selling something which was not as described. Also, I generally buy and hold silver. I am not a flipper so your statement about me thinking I could just make a quick buck isn't accurate. And who is more likely to not know self bars aren't as valuable as mint bars; me or the guy who didn't know bullion is sold in Troy ounces for spot (aka, you).

If you are so confident I am wrong you had multiple ways to prove me so and/or make this right:

1. I offered a bet on silver content
2. I offered multiple times to post all of our correspondence but said I would not do so without your consent.
3. I offered to trade you weight for weight, your bars to pre-64 coins(which you said we're just going to get melted anyway)
4. I offered to meet you for a return
5. I offered (before and after I knew the results) to join me and get them assayed, at a place of your choosing
6. I offered to meet you and exchange for silver in any recognizable format

All you have offered is to send me 1 pre-64 quarter to make up for it, then promptly threw a tantrum and made this thread (remember, that was you not me. I'm sure it has done wonders for your reputation here).

There was (and still is) a middle ground in all this. You chose instead to act like a petulant child who gets caught stealing candy.

You're right, because that would more than make up for the silver content that was supposedly missing. Something I warned you about and provided a solution for in the first place. So yes, I did go above and beyond 2 times. I do not melt my coins, I collect them. If all it took to get you off my back was one silver quarter, that was fine with me. Again, I know you are so upset not because of the purity of the bars, but because you couldn't turn the deal on silver you got around, because you didn't realize its much harder to trade self-made ingots than it is to trade professionally minted ones. I know I violated my own self saying I was not going to post anymore, but African Hunter has just proved that I offered a second solution to provide him with the silver he supposedly (important word here) was missing.

Again for clarity "contact me and I will make it right"

Saying because you included a coin plus ingots in the original deal that now, when the ingots are far below what was promised, deal is closed makes you look even worse than before.

Salesman: Hey, buy this used Mustang V8 today. Trust me this is an awesome car and you will have women chasing after you.
Buyer: sure, that is a good deal and I do like the wimmenz but I'm not sure. It is used and I kinda wanted a new car
Salesman: here I will give you a set of floor mats to sweeten the deal. I will make it right if you don't like the car
Buyer: Sold.
(Buyer drives it home)

While later buyer takes his V8 to a mechanic.

Mechanic: did you know this is only a v6?
Buyer: well crap, that wasn't what I was sold! I will go talk to the salesman, I'm sure he will make it right just like he promised.

Buyer: my mechanic just checked and said this is only a V6, I would like my money back or something equal to what you sold me
Salesman: WHAT! ALL SALES ARE FINAL, I GAVE YOU THE FLOOR MATS, HOW DO I KNOW IT ISN'T YOUR BUDDY WHO TOLD YOU IT WAS A V6, NO I WILL NOT GO WITH YOU TO ANOTHER MECHANIC... THEY COST MONEY YOU KNOW
Buyer: Just relax, there are lots of ways we can work this out
Salesman: STOP TALKING TO ME OR I WILL FILE HARASSMENT CHARGES AGAINST YOU. IF I SEE YOU HERE AGAIN I WILL CALL THE POLICE. (Runs inside and quickly makes a sign saying his customer is a liar, scammer and fraud... said sign doesn't cause the reaction he had hoped)
Salesman to angry mob: I GAVE HIM FLOOR MATS! THE PRICE HE PAID WAS THE GOING PRICE FOR A V6! IT WAS THE FIRST CAR I SOLD! IT'S HIS FAULT IN THE END! I GAVE HIM FLOOR MATS FOR CHRIST SAKES. IT'S ONLY 2 CYLINDERS...... SO WANNA BUY SOME OTHER CARS FROM ME? YOU CAN TOTALLY TRUST THAT I AM AN ETHICAL SALESMAN AND WILL TAKE CARE OF YOU SHOULD SOMETHING COME UP.

Some artistic liberties takes above but I think it gets the general point across.

See bold and then this thread;

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=131872.0

So you weren't going to melt the coins in the thread saying you we're going to melt the coins? (No editing please or I will just post a screen cap.

Well, that thread sure shows one thing. You shouldn't buy from a guy who names himself after really bad Scotch.

Just looks like the .925 (sterling silver) source silver was lower than .925% (possible some fake stamped sterling silver) or the .99% silver shot added was lower quality.

I think those assay guns are going to become alot more common after the fake gold in NY.

Just don't worry about him, you gave him too much. If you have any other problems with him let me know and I will send my assassins to make him love the ingot he bought from you and pay you a little extra just because he was so happy about it! : ))) Just kiddin'

Appreciate it. If anyone reads through this whole thing they'll understand whats going on. African Hunter bought the first ingots I ever made (and he knew that), and I worked hard to first get the scrap to a temperature where the silver melted and the alloy didn't. And to compensate, I added a ton of silver shot. Truth be told I did believe the ingots were .99. But just in case they weren't, I decided to include a Barber Half Dollar. That would make up for silver content even if ALL the ingots were 925 instead of .99. The "I will make it right" was before I decided to include the Barber-that was making it right.
About a month after the transaction (and after African Hunter had left me positive feedback) he comes back saying the assay results show the silver to be at 925,.9 and .8 (impossible because my torch doesn't get hot enough to BOIL silver and thus melt it off). Of course he had no literature, nothing to scan and show me (wouldn't you think an assay includes that?)
Of course I said no returns, that transaction was over and done with. He still got a great deal on silver and got more than what he paid for since I threw the Barber in as an insurance policy to avoid this exact scenario. It turned out the "alleged" (important word) lack of silver was about $5 worth. He already had that silver as part of the insurance policy that was the Barber, but I offered him a pre-64 quarter.
This wasn't good enough for him. He wanted silver in the form of either silver coins or minted bullion. Translation: interestingly this all coincided with the drop in silver prices. He wanted to take the great deal on silver he got from me and make money off it. But, he realized you can't trade homemade ingots like you can minted ones. So he was out of luck.
Anyone who reads this can form their own opinion, but that's what happened. And ask yourself-you see how many pages this thread is, how much time "African Hunter" has spent trying to get no more than $6 in silver (which the quarter I offered him would have done). It should be plain to see.
I am REALLY tired of this issue but feel like I have to keep posting on this thread to defend myself from the way "African Hunter" takes messages out of context (I did say I would make it right-before I decided the way I was going to do that was adding the Barber Half) and just provides examples that are entirely unlike this issue.
Just know that if you're a customer of mine you get whatever it is you pay for. I have started filming the making of my ingots so issues like this can't arise in the future. There are plenty of good people I've traded with on here. People whose back I have and will vouch for, and people who will do the same for me.

Who would take stamped sterling and melt it into some incongruous suspicious mass?  How much value did your spent time, labor, fuel, etc add to the silver?  And who the hell would melt minted coins?  Do you know understand the value of easily identifiable bullion?

Bitcoins bring out the moron in everything.

Again, I'm a numismatist. I collect rare coins. Of course in collecting real coins I come across cull silver coins (worth only melt). If I find a good deal on these, I buy them. I RARELY melt them down. I do it when people ask. Some like the allure of a "silver bar" rather than a handful of old, crappy looking coins. But generally I don't melt coins. I have a thread up now somewhere offering a bunch of 90% coins.
As far as melting stamped sterling pieces...are you trying to argue why an entire industry/hobby exists? Would you rather have a handful of flattened sterling silver rings or a solid 925 bar of silver?

Can't resist,

"Just know that if you're a customer of mine you get whatever it is you pay for." (Unless I decide that our deal was good enough as it was, even if you demonstrably didn't get what you paid for).

And you keep trying to push the idea that this is about me trying to make a quick buck and failing(I have only bought bullion for the past decade, haven't sold a single ounce of silver or gold).

I could care less about a few grams of silver, I would wager my watch is worth more than your car. I do care about a seller giving his word on something then weaseling out when he is shown to be wrong. I will be sure others know it as well.

Evidence of this is the fact you have tried to sell fake items on here more than once (cohibas, my bars, and wasnt that coin you were trying to sell also spotted as fake?) and gotten caught, only to say, whoops my bad. Either you are a terrible businessman, a scammer, or at paint chips as a kid (I am guessing a mix of all three).

Dude, you went to Tijuana and bought "genuine" cohibas, tried to sell them here for genuine prices and then when someone posted they were fake your answer was "oh, I thought they only sold fake ones on the street carts, not the super shady shops lining revolucion"

You fail at this and you will fail at life because you are old enough to know better but don't. Do yourself a favor and just embrace your terrible business sense; then apply for a wage slave job at McDonald's. your bank account will be better off for it

Damn. I was interested in these poured bars too from an earlier thread... This thread is great evidence of a really bad transaction that is just so much headache I wouldn't want to get involved in. I have no idea why there can't just be a refund or something. I have made several positive transactions in bitcoin and I am very happy with the system, but this is painful. Thanks for the information.

Au contraire, my friend. JW Blue is a fine, smooth, great tasting blend. and for $270CAD/750ml bottle, it oughta be.

Totally on johnniewalker's side here...it seems to me like he was making his first (attempt) at a .999 silver bar, and because it was his first try he sent a silver coin in case it was not .999. Now I only see 1 possible way to explain this; and that is that the silver shot was not .999. But based on what I see, I think AfricanHunter is a liar.

• Why has he not provided docs or proof of the assay?
• Why has he disregarded the silver coin he was sent?
• How the fuck does a .925 bar+.99 shot refine to LESS than .925? Am I missing something? Either AfricanHunter is lying or the shot was less than .925.
• And since when did people lose their ability to read a thread and pick out the obvious lies?

Based on what i've seen today on this thread, I think people have never been able to pick out obvious lies from the truth. Maybe that explains how people always fall for scams in the bitcoin community...

Thanks for your well thought out opinion.

I have did not pay for the assay so was just a jewelry store assaying them, In hindsight I should have asked for a printout but I foolishly thought JohnnieWalker would make it right(and was a bit shocked). Keep in mind I had offered to go to the assay place with him before it got done (he declined), I offered to go and have it done again at a shop of his choosing (he declined), I even offered a 25btc bet they would not test right at a shop he chooses (he declined).

My proof was telling him the shop I went to and asking him to call to verify what happened (he declined and said it was probably my buddy). Honestly, if he promised to honor things I would go through the hassle of going back and asking for a printout (the guy was nice and would probably do it for me) but that hasnt been JW's issue. He has acknowledged I am under by "$5 of silver" but has no interest in making it right.

I have not disregarded it the Barber sent. It was a part of the deal in case he made a "slight mistake. I view a slight mistake as a percent or two, not 12%. Also based on what he said went in the melt, it is impossible to have the purity as it tested. Please see my Car Salesman analogy on page 2 for a simple explanation.

I don't know, ask JW. Either his sterling was fake/low, his shot was low or both.

Please see the screencap of the original thread. He didnt sell this as "Silver bars or around .925, maybe more maybe less. This is my first shot so no guarantees." He sold(and marked) these as .99. Hence the issue.

Honestly on reflection and based on his history (buying "Cohibas" which he thought were real in tj) I dont think JW intentionally ripped me off. I think he bought some shady scrap and has no customer service/business skills.

But come on dude, I am the liar? I have offered multiple ways to either make this right or definitively prove me a scammer(and take home 25btc additional in the process). He hasn't taken any of them. If you really read through this thread and see me as the guilty party I doubt your judgement (or you are a shill for JW). I have offered multiple ways through this, he has offered none (well one which doesn't address the issue at hand).

Tell you what JW, If I go and get an assay printout and video the process will you finally do what is right(either refund or 1:1 trade for silver weight)?

No problem. :)


First, "I did not". Not "I have did not". :) Secondly, how can you be so sure that the assay was truthful if it was not professional? I highly doubt you got the full assay service for free.


While yes, it was a dick move for him to make, he is right about it possibly just being "your buddy".


Do you agree with this statement? Or do you believe he owes more? You don't make it very clear.


In my honest opinion, the barber should cover a bit more than a percent or two. Even if you do not view it as a slight mistake, I think a barber half was decent compensation.


I can understand this issue from this point of perspective.


I agree with this statement.


The main reason I called you a liar is because you have no docs. If you manage to return with the assay docs, the case will probably be resolved much quicker.


I agree with this too. JW should answer to this.

Make one little mistake and the grammar nazis come out :)

I believe it was truthful because it was done by a shop that has been there for years, He did it with one of those XRF guns that cost 30k while I watched the screen, he "gunned" about 10 other pieces of bullion which all came out correct, I walked in "considering" selling him about $2500 in bullion, and not sure what you mean by "full assay". This was done by a shop whose entire business is buying/selling bullion in the middle of downtown San Diego so not sure what you mean it wasn't "professional". Does me paying for it make it professional? What reason could he have for purposely assaying it under (when he told me from the start he didnt buy self bars and I had to ask him to assay them on the side since they wouldnt be part of the deal. It's not like he asked to buy them at any point).




Do you think I wanted all this headache over what should have been 3.5oz's of silver? Do I strike you as a shakedown artist with contacts in the business? I have done about 5k in business on this forum in past couple months (including a krugerrand which new member seller sent me before getting paid) surely there were better opportunities to scam someone than this?

If you dont trust the above, how do you reconcile that with offering to go to a shop of his choosing and having it redone; even offering a bet of 4X-ish what I paid if I was wrong?

Sure, anything is possible but which is more believable? That I colluded with others to try and get the silver weight I was promised or JW made mistakes on his first bars. He has made multiple "public" mistakes on the forum beyond this, why is that so hard to believe?


Honestly havent done the math but I believe it is immaterial regardless, he sold me .99 bars and that is what he should have delivered. If they were a % or two off, this discussion would be very different. Average purity below scrap sterling is an issue for me when he said he melted only sterling and added 1oz of .999 shot. Math doesnt work unless he got taken on the sterling, shot or both. Why should I have to take the hit for his lack of judgement.

In the end I believe he either owes me a refund or the weight in silver he promised (in a recognizable format, including the barber in the total). I dont see how I am trying to get one over on him with that offer. I would even negotiate that figure (you know, like normal people do when making a deal) but he has taken the stance that I am wrong and has been unwilling to discuss the matter.


Appreciate your opinion. In my view he included the Barber to get the deal done, not as compensation. I wouldnt have bought the bars for what I paid without it. Besides, I have offered to include the Barber as silver weight in a trade back.


Thanks.


I am not going to go and hassle the shop and spend their time on this (which will either cost me money or cost me a favor with the shop) unless I have some sort of promise from JW it would make a difference as I think even with them he would continue to tell me "NO YOU"!


He wont because he is only interested in making a quick buck off bitcoin. He will be gone soon enough I predict.

And in closing because it bears repeating, I leave you with this quote from JW;

He still refuses to live up to his word. JohnnieWalker, you are a dishonest trader and I hope people stay away from your "deals" of fake coins, fake Cohibas and fake/low silver.

You got what you paid for and more. What you bought and paid for was Silver. You were WELL aware that these were the first ingots I had ever made (maybe a newbie with a mapp torch isn't as consistent as the US mint?). I gave you more silver than you paid for, and offered even more. I highly doubt you have been buying and selling bullion for years-HIGHLY doubt. And cool about your watch, although its highly relevant, I don't think its worth more than my car.
I have offered fake/replica/counterfeit, whatever you want to call them, goods on here. Every single one I have marketed and put in the subject line "Fake/Replica/Counterfeit/etc.". I discovered the cigars I was selling were fake when a user pointed it out, and I promptly changed the post. Everything I have done on here is 100% honest and I can look myself in the mirror and say that.
One last question for thought: If you have been buying and selling bullion for years, why was it that you bought my first ingots wherein I PROMINENTLY advertised that I was a n00b and expected them to be .99 pure? Even I see-after a matter of months-that purity that high can only be achieved by a mint.
One more thing for thought. Does this look interesting?
We can work this out, I am not going to "bash" you on the forums at this point unless we cant come to an agreement. If you are unwilling to make good I will just make a thread telling my side of it.
Those words were typed by you. Instead, you put some BS in your signature about how I don't do honest business and are the first one to comment on my posts, harassing me and leaving rude comments.
We are done. Mods have agreed to block you from my posts in the future.

I'm pretty sure the guy paid for .99 silver And received .80 silver. 2 completely different products. He's understanderbly upset.

After viewing this pathetic attempt at customer service ill NEVER purchase ANYTHING from you.

I hate dealing with know it all uppity 18yo kids, and so do most people.

Actually its not physically possible he got .80 silver from me. Did you see the assay results? Why don't you share them? You guys have been pals since the beginning of this thread. I have no idea what my age has to do with anything. Its pretty simple. I offer something for sale, you buy it or you don't. If its not as described, I make it right-as I did with your buddy.

The basis for your argument the entire time has been that you don't care about silver content, but rather purity. You purchased .99 silver from literally someone brand new to melting silver-if you've bought and sold bullion for years as you claim, you should have doubted the purity of the ingots. However you never asked me how I made them AT ALL. So you were in the market for .99 silver, saw my n00b listing and bought it to profit from. BUT soon you realized it was harder to trade than minted silver.
So you wrote this on December 20:
"[after a proposition: "Sorry but no. Needs to be a mint bar/round or 90% pre-64 us coins. Gold works too"
African Hunter did not care about Silver in .99 form-he just wanted silver that he could turn around and easily sell.
Summary: You knew little to nothing about silver, besides the fact my listing was a great deal. You got your ingots and were happy with them for a while. Then you supposedly got them assayed and they were under .99 (why don't you upload a copy of that receipt, by the way?). Also, you realized hand-poured silver is much harder to sell than silver in any sort of minted form.
There it is everyone. African Hunter is everything I have claimed him to be. People who have been on my side-thank you. Others, first of all, are a bit foolish in that "African Hunter" never presented any real evidence. But you have just been straight up mean for no reason. Yeah its the internet and thats how shit goes, but when it tarnishes an important reputation it becomes harmful. I loved this forum initially. And, I've done business with plenty of good people. I don't know if its for fun or what, but I don't know what the hate is about.

the way i read it is the smelter guy thought he could get away with it because he THOUGHT getting the metla tested would cost more then half the metals value, so he thought they would never get tested.

but they did.

then he sent a coin to hush the customer up thinking that is it..

no..

the 4 'bricks' are marked as .99 but are not .99 which makes them valueless.. no one will buy them off of him.

i as an outside party feel that the guy that smelted the metals should accept the bricks and the coin back and give a full refund.

then remelt the bricks and stamp them with a more accurate purity value.

the simple matter of fact is
you promised the guy 4oz of silver of .99 purity and he ended up with 3.6Toz of impure quality..
10% less weight and an unknown amount of less quality = alot of difference

im glad i live in the UK as i have a law called distance selling act that i can use. it doesnt matter what payment method was made or whom to or even the product involved. they still have to allow a returns policy.

lesson to be learnt. if they dont have a returns policy, dont use them

By law in the US he is required to be within a margin of error of his marked quality and content. He is not within those margins of error. Not accepting a return puts him in criminal liability and he would serve himself best by choking this up as a learning experience and offering a full refund.

Not a great idea to experience "buyer's remorse" after buying from a seller with a "no refunds" policy.
In my neck of the woods we have a phrase that we say when we must accept the loss and move on after situations similar to what happened here...
Charge it to the game

The problem with this logic is that the seller misrepresented the content of the bars unknowingly or otherwise, and refusing a refund is tantamount to fraud. He may not have been aware what he produced, but the fact is he stamped the purity and is now responsible regardless of his return policy.

I don't give a fuck if it's .80 or not.  The important thing is that it's nowhere near .99 (which was not physically possible either)

I don't know the guy from a wet fart stain.

It doesn't usually.  I've met young guys like you.  Can't be told what to do, and stubborn until the end. super-ego!  I bet you're a fairly independent for your age? Keen to move out of home if you haven't done so already?  I know, I was a lot like you when I was younger.

Well give the guy a fucking refund already.  You have any idea how bad this whole thing makes you look right now? If you keep pissing people off you're going to lose any regular customers you had. The reason I've jumped into this because I hate it when people mis-lead or lie (whether intended or not)

No 1 rule when working in a sales, do YOUR BEST to make a happy transaction.  When people see that, they will flock to your product! Why do you think those Chinese sellers on eBay beg for 5 star rating? It's so people see that 99.7% and buy 20 of everything!

I'm not trying to harass you or ha-rang you here.  I just want you to do that right thing.

You are probably right as I A.) don't pay attention to laws pertaining to shit like this, and B.) don't expect anyone to enforce such laws. Therefore, I would charge it to the game and move on to my next business venture as I have many times in the past. You see it's not about making everything right because it would just probably cost more in the end. I think the buyer made out good in the end because he is literally out probably less than $10 and he has unfortunately (for him) but fortunately (for anyone that reads this thread) discovered what can happen with this particular seller. I've lost hundreds before with nothing to show for it and I just had to learn my lesson...and charge it to the game. If the buyer can figure out a way to sell the stuff he doesn't want then he should just do it because I can assure you he ain't gettin' no refund.

Yes, I am sure all transactions on this site are monitored, and thus subject to all trade rules and regulations of the United States.
I'm fucking sick of this. This is literally the last post I leave.
The buyer knew these were the first ingots I ever made. In order to ensure this EXACT thing didn't happen, I sent along a half-dollar which I noted would cover the coins even if they all turned out to be of .925 purity. I even asked the buyer to tell me the results of the assay. God I wish a record of sent messages was kept on here.
I made it right from the beginning, sending the coin (why would I have sent the half-dollar if I was confident the bars were .99?)
Upon the buyer saying he wanted to "return" the bars I offered 1) to send him a silver quarter since apparently melting .925 silver yields .80 silver. I'm STILL waiting to see the results of that assay. And I 2) offered to remelt all of the bars, let him keep the half dollar and quarter, and make him a single .925 ingot. He rejected all of these. He said he wanted MARKED silver or gold even. Therefore his argue of "Its about purity, not silver content" is bullshit.
I have yet to see anything even proving the buyer got the metal assayed. I have seen no results and not even a receipt!
The buyer thought he found a great deal on silver ingots from a NOVICE (he was well-aware these were the first ingots I ever casted) silversmith and that he could turn around and sell/trade them. Hand-poured ingots are a long-term investment, however.
So-considering all of my attempts to go above and beyond and above all a LACK OF ANY PROOF on his part, I will not refund this buyer in any way. Mods have agreed to block him from my future posts.
I will continue to offer things for sale on this site and look forward to many pleasant transactions with repeat and new customers.

Seriously?  You could have simply put him on ignore.

Sorry, been away on vacation.

1. Anyone with half a brain can see what happened here which is why you have nobody on your side (for more than 5 minutes) with any credibility.

2. Saying;


Doesn't work when they didn't even assay .925 on average.

3. I wanted marked or recognizable metals because your smelting cannot be trusted. Can anyone blame me? And who in their right mind would send you back bullion so you could resmelt it when you somehow managed to mix sterling and .99 shot then were left with a product which was less pure than sterling... Marked at .99 and in standard ounces no less you friggin chucklehead.

4. I have offered multiple ways for you to have proof and even come out way on top if I am full of shiz; all of which you have ignored or declined.

5. You have made absolutely zero efforts to go "above and beyond". What actions would you say demonstrate this after I contacted you with the assay results. In contrast, I feel I have been eminently reasonable with you. Remember who started this thread?

6. Hiding behind "Oh woe is me, if only I had the messages we sent back and forth" doesn't work when I have said multiple times that I did have all our correspondence but wouldn't post them without your consent as they were done off the public forum. Trust me, they don't do anything positive for your position.

7. Send me that silver quarter you promised. I have written the rest off as a loss, although I would wager your loss is far larger than mine when you consider the damage done to your rep.

Regards.

AH

I've been glancing over this thread with a vague amount of interest because I'm currently looking learning to make Jewellery and I'm probably going to be using sterling silver, while I'm not necessarily siding with Johnniewalker this frankly is beginning to look more and more like blackmail, AfricanHunter, why make such a massive deal about this?

. You bought an ingot from someone inexperienced who clearly didn't know very much about metals and was experimenting to make some cash

. You bought with Bitcoins, anonymously and essentially on the black market in legal terms currently and you're questioning the product quality after you bought it? It's as if you bought a house without properly surveying it first and are trying to place blame on the person you bought it from

. You magically have no receipt for the assay on the silver he sold to you, you keep saying it didn't, claiming you're being civil at the same time when anyone civil or for that matter intelligent would have brought the receipt along, when I make large or expensive purchases I always keep the receipt in case of situations like this

. If this were a court room and Bitcoins were entirely legal and not in a grey area like they are now I suspect a judge would have just laughed at you both because neither of you made any proper legal preparations to make your case like anyone else would

So let this be a lesson to you, if you deal in physical goods that have a potential for loss, both sides should keep legal records of everything so it doesn't turn into a nonsensical competition of who can rant at each other the longest, you don't buy something from a store and go to complain about the product without proof of purchase in real life do you?

I also found this which you all might find interesting: http://www.silverstall.com/testing-silver.html

You make some fair points but think you are missing the forest for the trees.

Regardless, I am tired of the discussion at this point and it was clear from the first few days he wasn't going to do anything about this, just wanted this to serve as a warning to others more than anything.

Anyway folks, happy to continue the discussion offline if anyone has questions/etc.