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Thanks :D

Which is nothing more than a red herring meant to denigrate his competitors. The Avalon team has not violated GPL licenses in the past, and there is no evidence that they are going to start doing so.

I actually don't care much about IP one way or another from a 'morality' point of view.  Again, my personal experience with software is that it works significantly better for me as a user when things are open-source, and that's where my money would go.  This is especially true for systems which I want to rely on for critical duties over a long period of time, and ones where I want problems addressed in a hurry (even if I need to do it myself.)  Operating systems are a great example of this.

In terms of the software (or gate design) for ASIC, I don't really see what point you are making, possibly in part because you are not prone to provide context.  Your comment was sort of out-of-the-blue and while you didn't really try to describe what ill effects a use of Avalon gear (assuming they come up with any gear) would face if they play fast-n-loose with IP.

Every effort I've been involved with (including ones with both an American and Chinese wing) has leveraged the hell out of whatever is available to solve their problems.  Most of the time this is open-source, and in the instances when we've tried to integrate closed source solutions it typically results in an expensive and time-sucking disaster.  Nobody tries to cheat, per-se, but there have been a lot of legitimate questions about what it means to comply.  Happily it is becoming more clear as the decades fly by.

Further, as you may (or may not) be aware lots of stuff needs to be done in a hurry in start-up environments.  Cleaning up the loose ends involving use of IP often has a lower priority than other things.

China does enforce IP laws.

You are the only one who seemingly lost on this point.

This is like Yifu saying Americans don't respect IP laws because they had <Napster/Scour/Fill in 30 plus others> then quoting a statistic.

Common man, get off that high horse, it's a "general people" problem...not a nation in particular.

Your proposal that the Chinese (or their governments) don't honor IP laws is out of touch with reality. You can play the poll/statistics game to give any side of an argument the advantage. Even up to two people citing completely contradictory points and still call both perfectly valid.

Slow poke, learn to actually read what positions others take.

I have taken the position that it is a General issue of Humanity. I never took the position that they don't have an IP problem. (So does America, Europe...etc)

I even went as far as pointing out the concept of IP issues being present _Everywhere_. From individuals to Corporations.
(Yes Josh, this includes all regions on Earth; yes even in orbit!). Some space faring astronaughts bring their MP3's in their vast silence of space. (LOL, not kidding on this)

The Onus is on you to prove that the Chinese people are somehow different (?or especially pirate prone?) than the rest of Humanity. If you are willing to go with that argument I think BFL would dump you before we are even 72 hours into 2013. The smart thing to do would be to apologize for any misunderstandings you might have caused.

Have you ever downloaded an [illegal] MP3? Well, does that mean our American Government doesn't [?effectively?] enforce IP laws? Do you know what the actual enforcement rate is for piracy? I mentioned that point early on. Did you notice at the beginning I stated that Americans along with other multi-nationals groups produced the main tools used in Piracy?


Josh you are a hopeless fellow. You don't even know when to call a "Logic Fail".

Don't stop trying though.

Just to play the devil's advocate here, can you provide an example of the GPL (since cgminer is GPL licensed, and that seemed to trigger this discussion - MP3s etc. are off topic) being enforced in China? If so, can you then provide data to show that the GPL enforcement rate is similar to that of the US and Europe?

Here, I'll throw Josh a bone.


I was wrong to assume the Avalon team had a good track record with protecting (commercial) IP.


Avalon does, I believe, have a good track record of releasing open source code.

Anyone want to add in trying to build the original Icarus bitstream to the discussion? :)
Was that ever resolved? I don't know.

Sure, as soon as BFL releases the Single bitstream.

Wont happen - it's clearly defined as close source and IP.
They may change their mind?
But unless they do, it won't happen.

PuertoLibre... you have surpassed your past stupdity by leaps and bounds. I simply can't argue any more with your brand of stupid.  If you want to go on believing, in the face of thousands of documents to the contrary, that China does not have an IP protection problem, you go right on ahead. Everyone else here and literally EVERYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD knows it's a problem. Even China knows it a problem and is trying to fix it (you even linked to it) but in your typical fashion, you deny the facts and just go with your own brand of fantasy.  You are, truly and in every sense of the word, an idiot.

My position is that it is a problem everywhere. China is no exception nor even exceptional. Again, pick up on the not so subtle hints of what is written, Josh.

FOCUSING in on the Chinese people and remarking that they have a serious IP problem is tantamount to denying the rest of the world (including your own homeland) are somehow in a less serious condition. The first thought that crossed my mind (as apparently it did in other readers) "is this guy serious?"

It was a discriminatory shot aimed at the Avalon Team based on their nationality. Reducing (perhaps a dozen) individuals into a stereotype with intent on exclusivity.

--------------------------
Example,

That is like me saying "those Russians" have a problem with "abandoned children" on the streets. (As if the rest of the world doesn't?)

I'd have to ask myself (if I were intelligent enough) why am I focusing in on one nationality? Is this a problem of perspective or a problem rooted in racial stereotyping? Are they "Human" [same as me] or are they particularly more degenerate in some way? Perhaps they love their children less and therefore abandon them frequently? Look, this statistic says it is so! Those loveless Russians!

It is a slippery slope of stupidity. Make sure you don't go down hill like a simpleton.

Like I said, you are so deluded that it's impossible to argue with someone who doesn't even understand what he's arguing about.  Enjoy your fantasy land.


PS - You are the only one focusing on Chinese people.  I have been commenting on Chinese law, which is established fact.  The fact that you are bringing race into it makes me believe you are in fact quite racist. 

I fear I have to agree with you on this one  ;D

There is this saying here: "Germans invent something - and then try to make it better. Chinese copy something - and then try to make it cheaper".

Here some pictures of re-engineered copied cars. http://chinesecopiedcars.tumblr.com/

Lifan 320:
http://images-2.drive.com.au/2010/04/24/1378777/Lifan_320_01-600x400.jpg

BMW Mini Cooper
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/3/3361/2601/33401300002_large.jpg

In the simplest terms:  never miss a chance to take a shot at a competitor.  


Is this true?  Errr, maybe.  I think of it this way.  Some people expect you to write with bias because of your affiliation.  When you show up in competitor threads to offer negative guidance it's very easy for some to perceive the message as a disingenuous attempt at a balanced opinion.

It's more like you are trying to cover up a few bad incidents where you got dumber by every successive post.

You went from racial profiling to calling a customer a "fucking idiot" twice in less than 5 posts. (I am guessing it is five, might be less than that).

When approached by that BFL customer seeking some kind of [verbal] recompense you simply told them off despite that knowledge.

I would say your profile is one of intense anger or simply not giving a damn.

What? Is this one more deluded thought running inside your mind? Go ahead, make it an even dozen.

I'd just like to add that you should give yourself a round of applause for how well you have honed your appallingly conceited shit-breathed hyperbole act, it is also unsurpassed (although if you push that little bit harder, you could possibly break your own record, keep going!). When it comes to being a prize class turd, you're really pretty spectacular. And, to reiterate, please don't take my praise the wrong way, I am genuinely in awe of how talented you are at being an odious crap muncher.

Ok, Mr. Brilliant, please show where I was talking about people as opposed to a countries law?  Show me where I mentioned race at all.   Oh you can't? What's that?  You were the one that brought race into the equation?   That's right, you're a fucking idiot, case closed.  Stop being so fucking stupid when you post and you might get some quality discourse... but you are just so stupid that you can't even understand what you write, much less what other people write.  How do you maintain respiration?  Seriously?  Do you even have  job?  I can't imagine anyone hiring you, as you couldn't even mop a floor properly.


What negative guidance?  I stated a fact, or are you disputing established fact now?  How the hell do you get from:


To somehow being negative towards the thread?  If anything, it's negative towards CGMiner ... if Avalon wanted to screw them and release the binaries only, what recourse do they have?  Nothing, which is what I stated and was the sole source of my point.  You mental midgets can't seem to understand the simple written word then try to attribute all sorts of nifty things to me that were not written or even vaguely implied.  Seriously - answer the question.  How do you get from what I wrote to somehow being negative towards Avalon?

Whoa there, Josh! You're beginning to sound genuinely frustrated with... something. OR.... is this just a double bluff, trying to get people as riled up as you're pretending to be? I like it, very intelligent trolling. Someone give this man a prize, he's working his little alpaca socks off here. In contrast to your trolling insult to PuertoLibre, I'd happily employ you as my weasel faced troll-king all day, every day, you absolutely excel at it! Bring sLOK adn the others into the fray, you could really outdo yourself here

A poem ---by Inaba @ BFL

Wait a minute...isn't BFL having all their shit made in China? So in essence he's saying that they could take all of the different products that they made for BFL and just start selling them out the back door. BFL could do nothing about it because of the way China handles IP. Or am I on the wrong track here?

Not really.  Their chips are not made in China, and that is the part important with regards to IP.  Other pieces are (probably much less important piece like capacitors and such that will go on the PCB's).

Where are the asic chips being made then?

Unknown. Somewhere in the USA.

Unfortunately we Chinese have no interesting and time to argue with some idiot.

Indeed, truly Inaba is a turd polished to a bright shine.


Your Chinese insubordination will be discussed @ the next BFL meeting, here is a picture of Inaba from the last BFL meeting:
http://i48.tinypic.com/ehn51i.png

Yea, too busy flooding markets with fake cisco gear.

Oops. Did i say that?

To be fair, talking about something being a problem in a particular country is more referring to the laws and culture of that country, and really does have very little to do with race. It has not yet been shown that he specifically targeted a race. It is a simple fact that a person's views of "right" and "wrong" are shaped heavily by the environment they grow up in, which indeed varies between countries, but he didn't even say that people raised in China may be more likely to violate the GPL (which may very well be true), he just made the point about it being difficult to (legally) do anything about such violations.

If you want a recent example: http://www.forum.lepanlife.com/showthread.php?tid=774

So really no diff then the usa 100-200 years ago. We used to copy books and resell them here in the usa with no profits going to england. Many other examples. Eventually you have to change your behavior if you do not want the same things to happen to you by the next up and coming poor country with laws going unenforced or no laws at all.

Eventually it irons itself out.

Even though FCmatt and I are at odds usually, it's nice to know at least he has a brain, unlike PuertoRetard.  Nathanrees apparently is capable of intelligent thought as well, quite refreshing.  PuertoLibre, you could take a lesson from these two:  They know how to read and understand what they read.  You should try it sometime.

LOL, whats a comment from Inaba without some Politically incorrect labels.

BFL Spokesperson Inaba responds to critics: YA' SHITS ALL RETARDED !
http://i50.tinypic.com/vg1vo5.png

@ Mem

That is a seriously disturbing pic.

Yes, he does. He actually makes a good number of points.


http://i47.tinypic.com/35li237.jpg

His profile says he is a "BFL Apologist". Most of the time he is. So....umm, so far you have one person on your side on this. (?)

<Shrug> Should I have been impressed?

@ Inaba

Please do yourself a favor and ignore me. If I am as retarded as you believe, then you stand to lose absolutely nothing of value.

Now, lets bring this thread back on track. It's about Avalon and not you. ;)

I normally dont post in pointless discussion... but China has IP protection laws? What the fck have you been living under?

You guys should take your time to travel the world a little to open your eyes.

To understand deeply, you need to learn more history about China. Chinese government consider any property (even intellectual ones) belong to their communist party.

Heck they even want their younger generations to learn Kong Fuzi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius)  Which is what the Chinese Communist burned and destroyed back in 1949

One of the book you can read : http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Thought-Confucius-Mao-Tse-Tung/dp/0226120309 written in 1953.

This will tell you why the Chinese ppl quickly adapted communism. Its an irony that the communist government now wants their ppl to learn Kong Fuzi (to listen to power that the party holds)
 

Yes, China has IP laws.
China has a Patent Law, a Trademark Law and a Copyright Law.
China joined WIPO (World Intellectual Property Organization) in 1980 (probably before you were born, hence your ignorance of it ;)).
They have a State Intellectual Property Office to enforce them.

Sure, they have many infrigers. Enforcing these laws is tough, because too often local governments tend to protect local businesses instead of enforcing legislation coming from their own government. But you can't go around spreading lies that China has no such laws.

B4 throwing out insults about my age (which you're completely wrong), look at the facts.

Joining WIPO means nothing. How many bs laws does China have? My question about IP law is a mocking statement. LOL

Look at automotive and electronics industries and come back here talk about IP protections.

What a joke!

Then edit your post to make it clear that you know they have laws.

Be literal in your criticism instead of making it implicit or ambiguous, and letting the reader guess what you mean. And take your own advice: state facts (like I did), for example by citing known infringement cases. Instead you added nothing of value to this thread. If you really are a grown-up adult, either learn to criticize like one, or stay quiet.

I would love nothing more than to never have to read one of your idiotic posts again... but you continually lie about BFL, and that needs to be addressed, less some of the more gullible members believe your bullshit.  You are a habitual liar, whether that stems from the fact that you are an idiot or you do it on purpose, who can say?  I don't really care.  But the fact is, you very rarely have anything useful to insert into a conversation.  Stop lying about BFL and I will gladly never respond to you again.  I was not addressing you in this thread, but you decided to pipe up with your moronic, ill informed "opinion" which you pulled out of your ass.  I don't seek you out.  You seek me out.  You are literally obsessed with me.  You can't go a single day without responding to one of my comments that are completely unrelated to you.  I have seriously considered calling your local police department with regards to a restraining order because I actually believe that you (unlike everyone else on this forum) might actually show up here in Kansas City, scraggly ass beard and dogeared notebook in hand and start screaming in my face about your lunatic worldview.  You are a nutcase in every sense of the word.

?

Addressing some of your delusions. Why is it that you somehow think I will travel thousands of miles to talk to you?

Are you a bit nutty under that cap or what?

And if this fear is founded, have you also threatened every other member who has had contact with you or even "dox'ed" you? Compared to them I don't even hold a candle of the same degree of tenacity?  (Yet you appear to think I somehow do?)

Personally, I found Mem's posts a bit more disturbing. PG (you know that guy who has massive Google-FU ability) has done quite a shitload of research apparently. He probably knows what is under my left shoe. Yet somehow you keep focusing in on me? Sounds like a personal vendetta...perhaps you are actually stalking me?

(I am in the Avalon thread after all.)



--------------

How many people have you actually threatened (and their family) besides me with some kind of false allegation? How many supposed "stalkers" are present on this very forum?

(PG at least right?)

Considering you are (IMO) a raving lunatic who hurls insults (and it doesn't seem to matter who it is that is in your way while you do it) I believe. I am the one who should be afraid for my life. You have all that Pre-Order money to stalk me with and all that. (Am I kidding?)

I mean I don't even know where you are in Kansas (nor do I care). I don't even know what you last name is. I guess this is what it is like to have an actual stalker?

You know where I live, (I didn't tell you nor offer to tell you).
You know what my family members are called by their first names (again, I didn't tell you nor did I offer that to you).
You took a company complaint to heart and intercepted a private communication with your employer (BFL) as far as I can see.

That is when your allegations pretty much started.

I recall you made comments about how "pretty" I was at that time. Even made some creepy weirdo type of comments that I still vaguely remember.

Oh and this happened when I still had barely ten posts directed at you. I recall typing that too in my response. Sounds like a vendetta to me.

What a great idea, Josh!  Seems that you are experiencing a little dead time down there at BFL and have nothing better to do, so why not?

I actually usually enjoy PuertoLibre's (and Mucus's, smoothie's and Phin's) posts, but I doubt that they would compare in amusement value to that generated by a restraining order effort.

Believe it or not, but I'm currently donning a scraggly ass beard. I've opted to lay off for a while. Josh was even kind enough to reply to a PM I sent him asking for advice, offering up a fine suggestion.

His last name is not hard to find, but at one time I had a hard time figuring it out. Once you find it, don't bother doing any research, for you'll be hard-pressed to find a grain a dirt on the man. And that's a fact!

~Bruno K~

@ PG

So what is the trick in getting him to ignore you? Whats the magic behind your secret?

Um, Phin - Josh's surname is public knowledge.  It's been published in Bitcoin Magazine more than once, as well as other places.

 ??? wtf is that, mem?   

Best of luck to the Avalon team with its release :)   I really am impressed with the understated style in which the Avalon project has developed.

Inaba, he's gonna git you.
http://i50.tinypic.com/vg1vo5.png



Wow, seriously wow.
From the forums biggest liar, the guy who absolutely refuses to answer any questions regarding his scam company is calling someone else a lair with absolutely zero reason to do so.
They did a south park episode about your type Inaba, your mind is so fucked you do these mental backflips to convince yourself you are the victim - it really is incredible to see it outside of a cartoon.

@ Mem

As funny as you think it might be to draw someone in KKK clothing it is nothing to laugh about.

As for "Inaba, is gonna git ya!" or whatever it is you wrote...I have actually been a victim of an [attempted] Home Invasion.

You can only know what real fear is when you are in the midst of one. When you have had a crazy person outside your door trying to pound and kick it in off it's hinges....

You can't really understand what it is like to have several family members holding kitchen knives in their hand looking at each other wondering what the hell to do in that situation. Your family in such a situation keeps looking at each other scared while each is holding a knife in hand and wondering whether you (or one of them) will actually have to do something drastic like stab someone when they finally break the lock or knock the door from it's frame. Or if there will be blood on the floor. Or if the attacker is going to take the knife from your hand or one of their or if you are fast enough to not end up in a struggle with the person and get stabbed yourself.

5 Minutes for 911 to get to your home (and they are barely a few blocks away) is an ETERNITY of waiting. When they did finally get there they rightfully came out and jumped the fence with guns drawn.

-------------------------

Needless to say, God was with us on that day. The frame of the door had to be pounded back into place with a hammer. The police hopped plenty of fences looking for the guy but they didn't find him. In situations like that you wonder for a long time whether they will ever come back.

And no, it wasn't someone any of us knew or had ever seen before. It was probably some guy hopped up on drugs. Drugs apparently give people a shitload of strength.

The only reason this guy wasn't successful was sheer luck (and God). He pounded my backdoor and when we saw him going along the side, something told me to quickly apply the front locks. If you think you are brave wait until you see a crazy person trying to attack you in what appeared to be a drug fueled rage. And...seeing the wooden door frame gradually separate as the psycho beats the living crap out of it.

I was only quick enough to put one of the three locks on "on inspiration" cause I seriously didn't know what the hell was happening. I had to apply the second strongest lock on that door as the guy was pounding. Which didn't go in easily as the door was becoming separate from the frame at the time.

-----------------------

Anyway, enough with the jokes, the kkk pic is way over the top, bud. The whole crazy intruder bit doesn't help.

What made it funny (to me) was the over-the-top absurdity of the joke in the first place given the context, but much more than that, the absolutely child-like rendering is what really gave me a chuckle.

Thanks Mem!

Somehow PuertoLibre and Inaba seem to need each other.

Like with Batman and Joker.

But it's more like Jokeman and Bonker.

 ;D

Josh, you are a genius. Like most right thinking people, I am in real admiration for a relentless bully who accuses others of arrogance, ignorance, stupidity and incompetence, then cleverly subsumes all those qualities thereby accused into his own post. The crass hypocrisy is bound to wind them all up, are you sure you've not been trained by Elton John school of trolling? It's what everyone wants from the representative of a mining equipment manufacturer that currently holds millions of dollars worth of pre-order sales, it's bound to inspire real confidence in your company above all others. Can we not get the mods to get this penis-breathed hero some recognition for his achievements?

It says "possible"! Don't trust it until there's 6 confirmations.

You too, Josh, could learn a lesson here.
You constantly repeating that some people are idiots doesn't show much, uhm, intelligence at all.
In fact, the way you drag people through the mud is so low that it completely undermines your position as a person with above average intelligence. It's thinly repackaged primal rage with a hint of bipolar. Possibly caused by prolonged stress. I think it would be good if you dealt with it.

I was in reference to a couple three months back, prior to it becoming prominently published, and if it was available, it eluded me. I did learn at the time that he was a furry in the Navy stationed at the DMZ, or something like that, and that he's currently a pilot. Josh is a helluva lot brighter I'll ever be. (this post is not meant as a diss)

~Bruno K~

Not at all, the prospect that his incessant name calling has anything to do with a fear of his own inadequacies just isn't realistic for this particular omniscient super-being. What Josh is doing is conducting a really smart business strategy. Making out that everyone who disagrees with him is an idiot to soothe his ego? Preposterous.

Is that a new rank? Is it above or below Petting Officer?

@ All

I have decided to place Inaba on ignore. I will continue to post what I think about BFL/Avalon/bASIC/AsicMiner etc.

If Inaba still comes to this open forum (which is not his "exclusive property" nor "under his administrative ownership") to bash me or anyone else that says something even slightly negative of his employers practices. I will be unaware of it. If he decides to follow my or every other compatriots every post and comment on it [as if it were a hot dogfight] all over the internet beyond the confines of the BFL official forum. I am sure I will see his name being blocked somewhere on the forum (repeatedly).

I want to prove that he can't help himself in coming here and bothering other members. With slurs and all manner of derogatory words.

What we may collectively think of BFL is none of Josh's worry. If Josh wishes to bash us for those opinions or speculations that is his personal motive. What he cannot do is restrict our right to say it nor discuss it on this forum. As that would be a form of harassment.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=ignore;u=8198;topic=120184;msg=1433516

Can you show me where an official BFL representative posted a link to that timer? If not, then I'm going to assume it's just a random person who thought they'd have a little bit of fun by posting a countdown in BFL's name.


http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/25176315.jpg

PuertoRetard translation:  I can't defend my idiotic posts against logic and common sense so I will just ignore facts and continue to post my bullshit.

Got it... like we expected anything less from you. 

(Prediction: His self imposed ignore will last about 36 hours before he can't stand it anymore and takes me off ignore and continues to salivate over every post I make)

I believe it will be.
Hmm, Yeah possibly in mid-Feb.

It will be kind of funny[as in sad] to see them delay once again. RG @ BFL forums was thinking the same thing.

I really want to see how long the hardcore supports at BFL can keep waiting for their deliveries. At least Avalon has the decency to make their planning and stated delays ahead of time.

BFL just waits until the very end to announce the next one. "ha ha"

P.S. an apropos entry:

http://i45.tinypic.com/jj226u.jpg

I also wondered which 'DMZ' he served at.  I hope it was not Rassah's dining room.

Did you know your posts are boring?
...

The BFL pre-mature ejaculation image which you saw fit to edit out was one of the more amusing (and 'apropos') ones to have graced bitcointalk.org in a while.  And the production quality exceeded that of many.

---

On roughly the same topic, it would be interesting to see a plot of the months past initial ASIC delivery estimates vs. the number of pre-order 'customers' who sense they have likely been swindled.

"Swindled" in what way?  I haven't seen a lot of customers of any of the companies express the belief that they'll never receive their ASICs.  I have seen plenty of people say that if they'd known delivery times would slip this much they would not have pre-ordered, though (because they could have bought more conventional hardware and been mining with it until ASICs were delivered as there's not going to be any massive advantage to having the first ASICs now like there would have been before the block reward halved - BFL, in particular, should be able to fill it's existing pre-orders and go to shipping on order very quickly).  I think that people who weren't relying on ASICs to give them a significant, albeit limited term, advantage are less likely to feel "swindled".

PuertoLibre forgot to mention that he borrowed it from Butterflylabs Forums: Contest: Ad Week 2 Little Single SC Giveaway (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/622-contest-ad-week-2-little-single-sc-giveaway.html)

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/dbtgallery.php?do=view_image&id=29&gal=usergallery

Your right! I forgot to get the link to the original poster. It wasn't mine. It was probably made by a BFL customer.

Well .. I am a BFL customer ... hint hint  ;)

Funny to see how the Avalon ASIC Development status thread is fully taken over by BFL-haters-lovers

Go figure

This is like the plague, began filling the themes subforum, but now invade other issues that are not yours. All forum full of shit BFL.

Allow me to figure it then.

Time takes place in a sequence, and it's a necessity of this logical construct that each individual partition of these arbitrarily divided moments can only ever be sensibly referenced such that the placement of one event in the sequence is permanent and unchanging. You seem to be implying a subversion of this logic, in that the loving of the BFL haters took place before the haters of the Avalon project began their hostilities. Attempting to re-write historical sequences just to support a bullshit argument makes you a bullshitter. Shut up, or think before you speak. Or look foolish. The choice is yours.

So causes happen before effects...

Let me guess, you're first in your junior college?

Hmmm, your reading comprehension appears to be a little challenged here. A simplified summation of my (intentionally sarcastic) over-elaborate description is, in fact, thus:  you can't change the order that events take place once they've already happened (particularly to support bullying cowards who are not even very talented at it). Causal relationships were not even hinted at.

It's helpful to us all if you've actually understood what you're reading before you comment on it. Thank you for your interest, however.

Note to self: No ever make an mistaken to git into a wit of words wit dis guy. Him good!!! Seriously, I love how you write.

Even Hollywood was created by IP outlaws:

http://www.cobbles.com/simpp_archive/edison_trust.htm

And look at them now.

"The slave becomes the oppressor when the master dies."

Pffff, I would normally reserve this level of ire and indignation for genocidal despots, but the way that Butterfly Labs and their supporters are treating their business competition is nothing short of disgusting. In fact, disgusting doesn't even cover it. Although, as I've said, it's only through pathetic fear of their own inability to deliver the goods.

I really don't understand why it has to fall to me to counter-troll these sperm-donation experiments that call themselves humans. The mods should have banned Josh and his coterie long ago, they're really bad for the atmosphere, it's not anti-democratic or whatever to remove people that just plain stink. I've resisted the temptation to tear into him and his finger puppets for a while, but it's gone beyond disgraceful now. Moderators, please do something.

The only "people" supporting this tool with any enthusiasm are either himself under a whole plethora of poorly individuated accounts, or just very small in numbers. I'd be pretty embarrassed to be waiting on a pre-order from BFL right now, with their main member of staff behaving like a 14 year-old internet troll. Where are you, BFL customers with a half way presentable conscience? What's wrong, are you afraid that this sociopathic moron will turn his vindictive streak against you and your precious investment?

And Josh, bring the fight to me. I dare you. You've not bothered to so far, and it's a wise tactic, as you'd get eaten. Now go and crawl back under your stone, you repulsive excuse for a man.

So the historical order of events doesn't change...  Wow...  How profound.

And I took, or mistook, your other statements regarding BFL and Avalon zealots to be a statement on one being caused by the other, a slight change from the stated story, the other causing the one, which was the point of your critique.  The only thing I'm really telling you is, your writing style is as distasteful as battery acid.

Yeah, I was blown away by this astounding revelation.

Um, pardon? You've still failed to understand a paragraph written in what I'm hoping isn't your native language, and you're still attempting to make a meaningful comment about it, which is so unnecessarily convoluted that it actually appears to be a tacit commendation of my "battery-acid writing" (straight out of the Monkey Island crappy insults pile there, nice). Why bother aping my style if it's so unworthy? And just to set you totally straight: it only functions as an effective denigration technique if there's actually meaningful content as well as smart-assed meandering. Fuck off.

@Carlton Banks: Can you try not so hard to prove your intelligence ? If you're really smart you'd refrain from comparing your intelligence with others. That being said I think Josh has every right to comment on this forum like he did so, initially in reference to the Avalon product, so I'm glad you're not a moderator, otherwise you'd erase posts just like Josh does on the BFL forums(or so I read around here..)

I'm not an Avalon customer, but I'm interested in the progress of their product, therefore I'd like to ask everyone to keep this thread clean of non-necessary information as its getting pretty hard to go through all pages for a useful post, please take it in your PM's or open new thread. Thank you!

+ about 1,000,000 for this thread

Seriously can people stop posting non Avalon crap in here so that others don't have to reply to the crap.

And what is it that makes you think I'm putting in an abnormal effort?


Qualify this assertion. Oh, and check out this bit of (fairly smart) self deprecation:



Really? You're talking to the wrong person/multiple personality disorder sufferer then. This bad loser known as Josh/Inaba/too-many-more-to-mention has been littering these pages with his crass bullying for months now, and he seems to be doing it just for the sake of it as there is no realistic prospect of affecting anyone's business this late in the game. I suspect his sense of helplessness to make an actual contribution to his company's project is probably behind this (pathetic, isn't it). As soon as he stops treating this like a wall pissing contest, I will leave him and his shill accounts alone. Oh, and see my previous post about how events take place in the same order they happened, no matter what distortion suits your argument, you'd do well to gain some appreciation of the fact

What is the expected utility gain from posting off-topic comments in this thread?

//Offtopic(please excuse): @Carlton Banks: The second phrase was addressed to all who read this topic, I'm sure you got that. Josh's initial post was regarding the Avalon team and I'm not trying to take his side, he can do so himself, but everyone else seems to take it to the next level and he seems to attract lots of haters. He did so with bASIC thread in the past, now with Avalon, he also does it on BFL forum(when not deleting posts). He surely feels the need to defend his opinions causing a snowball effect(most of the time injurious statments from both sides) and that is detrimental to the useful information seekers like me. So again I ask not only you but everyone else, if you have anything to comment/ask that is not related to Avalon product can you please PM the person in question or start a new thread. Again my thanks and my last offtopic post.

Reasonable appeals to stop OT posting like that which you have made have already gone completely unheeded by Josh and his finger puppet circus, I would recommend directing such pleas at the prime offenders instead of at myself. I have spent several months refraining from addressing it directly, but this creature is so unrelentingly shameless that I'm not willing to put up with it any longer.

Repentance's idea to lock the threads for ASIC project reps to post news only has been suggested before, but not taken up so far. I can see how it would be hard to make it work; Josh would only find some other way to abuse such a structure. I will be abusing him and his poorly constructed shill accounts until he shuts the fuck up. Nothing unreasonable about this, I'm surprised that everyone else has been so accommodating of his lamp-post urinating territory marking for so long

When you troll a troll you just make things worse.


With your vast intellect you should know that that doesn't work.

Not in my experience, watch me

And I'm wondering how you've not grasped the recursive paradox of attempting to troll a troll who's trolling a troll, who's trolling........

still the best Avalon thread.

Oh really? What makes you think that I haven't?

See the first post in this thread.

I mean 'Swindled' as in flat out swindled.  By people who noticed that with a little effort and some industry-specific lingo they could get a lot of people to send them money.  And never did have any plan or make any steps toward actually producing an ASIC Bitcoin mining chip.

I also have not seen a lot of any customers express the belief that they'll never receive their ASICS in spite of the now 4 month delays.  What I am musing about is how many months (or years) without delivery would the condition exist.  And what would be the shape of the slope formed by 'marks' losing hope.

It might be the most entertaining thread ever! :) 

Stop stealing my lines! It helps if you add some wordy confabulations. Don't get me started.

Please put your money were your mouth is by betting against "Butterfly Labs ASIC is real" (http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=665).
Right now your side is at 51.55 BTC. If you are right, you will roughly triple your coins.
But I suspect you are full of it, and are not going to bet a single coin...

Better yet, why don't you all fund this guys adventure?

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/644-new-facility-update-has-anyone-ever-visited-got-idea.html

http://i48.tinypic.com/rssvu8.jpg

His bitcoin talk name is https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=56447 (JMcGrath)

He stated he had a fear that BFL would cancel his orders. I wonder if BFL will cancel all his orders now that he intends to check up on them directly?

I don't play around with penny-ante games of chance.  I normally target large long term trends.  Generally speaking winning such a bet would be a hollow victory and losing one would utterly suck.  One way or another, I'm don't trust anyone to sit on my BTC, and in particular not some scungy betting parlor operator (who will want a cut.)

BTW, I never mentioned BFL by name, but I can see why that might match the pattern I am drawing as they have more than their fair share of red flags.  And since they have the record of the longest failure-to-deliver (and had the most aggressive rope-a-dope sales campaign) they are a prime candidate to do the type of analysis that I'm interested in on.

By your own words, this is not a game of chance, since you are so certain that ASIC designers are swindlers who never plan to make an ASIC.
Or... are you saying there is a chance that ASICs are legitimate?


Fine. I offer you to take this bet, 1:1 odds against me, but with coins escrowed by a trusted third-party. I suggest Graet (operator of ozcoin, who will not take a cut). Deal?

Find an example of where I was 'so certain' that BFL was a scam.  I've never been 'certain' of this, but it is true that I've been suspicious for some time and I grow more suspicious by the day.

A trouble with bets of this nature is that it is both very cumbersome to line out the details of what constitutes a win or loss.

That said, I am at this point pretty sure that BFL is a scam by my definition.  Here's the deal I would do, and I'll do it for 20 BTC (assuming my spending money is still available in instawallet and I don't have to go to my deep storage):

1) BFL had no program which could have feasibly produced, in time for their initial announced ship date of Oct 2012,
1a) a 60nm ASIC dedicated to Bitcoin mining
1b) largely their own design or a design commissioned by them for their exclusive use
1c) and for use only by them if _they_ so chose

AND

2) BFL fails to deliver a device utilizing a chip as described in 1) by Q2/2013

While BFL is tight-lipped, they gave every indication that the conditions of 1) were true so I consider them scammers if that turns out not to be the case.  2) just puts an end-date on this bet.

In the off-chance that BFL delivers anything by 04/2013, it may still be difficult to determine if it achieves the conditions of 1).  If this cannot be understood by a majority of observers based on what seemingly reliable info leaks out, the bet is annulled and the bettors get their BTC back.  (Put another way, you don't win the bet if Josh buys an Avalon and sells it to someone.)

I don't know Graet.  If he can explain why he would be interested in wasting his time on such a trifling thing to my satisfaction, he can serve as an arbitrator and escrow (in conjunction with other interested parties reading this note.)  My specifications are easy enough for most observers to understand (and fairly reasonable) so I imagine that Graet and Ozcoin would do a good job of arbitration.

If I win the bet, I'll take my 20 BTC back and your 20 BTC can go straight from the escrow to the Bitcoin Foundation.

What say ye?

Hey PL,looks like the same thing at bASIC's camp,minus the "adventure"  :P  :D

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/bASICrant_zpsa6a78872.jpg

https://www.btcfpga.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=1afa765ac324f84b55fc60383a5cdf42&topic=882.30

Here, in this thread: you stated, as if it was a matter of fact: "[they] never did have any plan or make any steps toward actually producing an ASIC Bitcoin mining chip." That is a very blunt statement!

Am I misreading your "certainty"?

If so, would you want to retract this statement?

I suggest you edit your post to communicate what you truly meant, for example your UNcertainty by saying "I believe there is a chance that they never did plan to..."?


These conditions (60nm, Oct 2012...) effectively retract the statement you made above ("[they] never did have any plan or make any steps toward actually producing an ASIC Bitcoin mining chip"), as you seem to want to redefine the bet so that you win even if BFL makes ASIC(!) that would not quite match the exact specs and timeline they claimed.

So, I did push you to reject a bet that ASICs will not be produced, after all  ;)

Your new position actually matches closely what I believe myself (me too I doubt they could have feasibly made the chips alone by Oct 2012, and me too I doubt they will use 60nm, I estimate they will use 65nm.)

Therefore where is our disagreement, what can we bet on?

My beliefs are very precisely defined in: http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=665 Will you take them as they are written? You will notice they make performance efficiency claims (350+ Mhash/Joule) that can be measured by anybody (as opposed to betting on "60nm", since it would be harder to verify). I do have 20+ BTC available.

PS: Graet is an escrow often use for hardware sales. I like the idea of the losing bet being gifted to the Bitcoin Foundation.

Yes, and more than that.  I started out with a general musing on how long it would be before 'marks' of a hypothetical ASIC scam operation got suspicious when there was a failure to deliver.  I didn't say anything about BFL.


My conditions were designed to capture BFL lying about something they claimed when they were in the hunt for pre-order victims.  That in and of itself qualifies them as scammers in my book.  (If it was 65nm or nothing at all that they claimed, then I'll adjust my conditions accordingly.)  I'm expecting various information to leak out as time goes by.  Some will be verifiable and/or probably reliable and some not.  I don't expect to win this thing on a technicality and don't wish to lose it on one either.  If BFL really was working diligently on an ASIC and they just ran into some bad luck (with timings and what-not as claimed) then I certainly would consider myself the loser of this bet.

Of course I do not know that BFL are scammers, but I think it probable enough at this point that I'll risk 20BTC on it.  Particularly if it would go to a good cause (even though I was among the few who stated reservations about the foundation in the thread discussing it.)

If my definition of a scammer and yours do not align well enough to place a wager on it then it is probably best not to do so.  Or, as seems to be the case here, you do not wish to have your funds backstopped by BFL's existence as a honest and up-front operator I would completely understand :)

I do not like the stipulations outlined in id=665 for several reasons.  Among them, the opportunity for BFL to simply buy someone elses technology exist.  And, of course, being 10 months behind schedule is questionable to say the least.

Your appear to have cast the net for a "scam" so wide that even if they deliver you could still consider it to be a scam. I don't understand; why do you use "scam" like this when you must surely know that that isn't how the other 99% of the English-speaking population uses it?

One possible answer is that you intend to mislead. Politicians do this, as well as lawyers and marketers. They stretch a definition of a word wide enough to cover whatever they want (which logically throws away most of the meaning; strong meanings come from specific concepts) but act like the rest of the meaning is still there. The result is that they can convey a false message without directly lying.

Eg. Politician A claims that B is "wasting billions", except A has defined waste to be "anything I wouldn't spend it on", but they hope the public will interpret it as "anything a reasonable person wouldn't spend it on" so that they think that B is a moron. It's not quite lying by omission, but I might call it lying by unjustified substitution.

You're not doing that, right? That would be bad.

If BFL were flat out lying about anything while accepting pre-order money sent to them on the basis of their setting false expectations, they are scammers in my book.

It is quite possible that Bitcoin mining ASIC could at some point down the road become an inexpensive commodity.  If BFL sits on the pre-order money (or spends it on hookers and blow) while waiting for that point then, buys enough to get the pre-order monkey off their back, yes, they delivered, and yes, they are scammers.

I think that is already pretty clear that they outright lied about the delivery date. They knew it was not possible
but wanted to get on the money train first which worked beautifully for them.

Proof? I have none except what has taken place. Anyone with common sense can see it.

But this forum does not give out scammer tags until a moderator or one of their friends lose a buck.

I cannot say I am surprised.

They are acting or behaving in much the same way as BFL has been for a long time.

The reaction with BFL was much the same. Tom needs to get his info straight and get on the ball quick. Telling your customers that if they can't stand the heat they should get a refund (ala BFL) is not a good business strategy.

-------------------------

I expect that when Jan 13 through the 17 comes around, that Tom will be equal to Josh. Having no answers other than yet another delay. I do have full confidence that BFL will ship in Feb. I have strong reservations that Tom might ever ship.

You might ask me why I take that position. It is because of what happened in November 25th.

[Speculation]

---There was a conflict with his Family of some kind. (I speculated privately/internally it was probably him putting his house or something valuable as collateral for more money to continue the project.)
---His business with the designer of the boards fell through, either because of the contracted showing their incompetence or because they probably told him that they would not be able to deliver on time.
---He may have been hung out to dry by his Dev team and then had to run out and get someone to replace them. (which is what happened)

Then, seemingly, everyone stopped asking what the trouble was exactly. So there were never any answers I actually saw coming out of that situation.

If any of the above is even somewhat remotely true, then Tom is more likely to implode than BFL. I have to say I like Tom quite a bit, but his BFL impersonation does not suit him well. He should go back to how he was before.

-------------------------

The only thoughts crossing my mind are that BFL tried to do too much on their first run, and the consequences followed.

Tom went the easier route and simply depended too much on the wrong design company. They may have been the weakest link in his chain.

Avalon seems to be cruising below the surface of events and is seemingly only bothered by the fact that they don't know how many chips they will utilize in one rig and whether people will mind the higher watt usage.

ASICMiner seems to be interested in mining on their own. They are the great catalyst for refunds in late January. (Says my crystal ball)
I do not feel that ASICMiner will ever fail. They are in it for themselves. The only outcry from the community is when they add to the rising difficulty.

---------------------------

Personally, if Avalon ships in January, they will be the only solution that produced an ASIC device for the common man (ahead of time). The odd thing being that 2/3 of orders have gone to the players who either have locked up peoples money and aren't (yet) delivering on the promises.

Uh, common sense says that lying about delivery dates is only going to hurt the reputation of the company, resulting in losses of future sales. Therefore, the prior probability of "BFL blatantly lies about delivery dates even if it would hurt their reputation" is low, while the prior probability of "BFL makes mistakes because it's their first ASIC product" is pretty high. You would therefore need strong evidence which favors them lying over them messing up before you could rationally believe that they were actually lying all along.

What evidence do we see? We see a couple of missed deadlines, which would be consistent with both possibilities (hence the probabilities don't change; lying is still "low", messing up is still "high"). What, then, has "taken place" which dramatically increased the probability of them lying all along?

They either lied, or are incompetent. Take your pick. They claimed, in Oct, that they could still meet the Oct date. Not only did they miss Oct, they missed Nov, and Dec, and they're still not done missing dates. There was no way they could have met the claimed Oct date.

Fun fact: hindsight bias is extremely strong, even when you tell people specifically to avoid it.


I disagree. There is one reality, and if everyone looks at the evidence rationally, they should reach the same conclusion. I'm asking for the evidence supporting "they lied" over "they messed up like most startups do" because I'm not seeing it, yet I'm seeing many claims about them lying.

I'm not normally a very generous person, but missing a delivery date in and of itself does not make one a scammer in my opinion.  If they had legitimate reason to hope for that date and something didn't go accourding to plan/hope, I do not consider it a scam.


Yes.  As time goes by, a scam is res ipsa loquitur, at least in terms of deliberately setting false expectations for the purposes of monetary gain.  This would be negated to some extent if they give everyone back the pre-order money if/when there is a diluge of requests.  I would be surprised if they give refunds when these start to significantly outpace pre-orders...because, again, I now lean towards the theory that BFL is a scammers nest.


LOL

edit: Better Latin after consulting wikipedia...though I still probably mis-used it...

Yes, you said this about all ASIC manufacturers (or was it just BFL? either way BFL is included in your criticism):


But you just clarified you were not "certain" of this swindling accusation. I advise you to word carefully your criticism next time. I took you as a troll making baseless accusations, when in fact, you were just expressing a "probability".


Why do you care? As long as they deliver ASICs, I don't care how or who makes them, this is literally none of my business. Bet #665 was written to allow BFL to be 8 months late, not 10. This allowance is because we all know they suck at planning.

The only reason I am not 'certain' is that I've a very high bar for 'certainty' as a general part of my nature.  I'm confident enough that BFL are scammers (as I define the term) that I'd risk a couple hundred buck...and again, with no potential for personal gain.

Ya, you dug up what I believe to be my initial text.  It is as I recalled. That is, a general curiosity about how long an ASIC scam-ee could be strung along by an ASIC scam-er in this phase of the development of the Bitcoin community.  And, of course, a wish for a decent sample size to make a meaningful scatter plot and best fit.


I don't care much because BFL has none of my money and there was never any chance that they would get any.

The only reason I care at all is that if/when the 'ASIC vendor scam' hits home it will probably be right up there near the top in terms of events which resulted in Bitcoiners being separated from their money.  Not good for Bitcoin generally, but by this time Bitcoin has a long history of shrugging off such setbacks and I'm sure it would this one as well.

As to the bet, it sounds like you and I agree that BFL has been utterly deceitful in efforts to get people to send them pre-order money.  Where we differ is that I consider this scamming while you do not.  Ergo, there doesn't seem to be much to bet about.

Edit: fix quotes.

No, I don't think that BFL is deceitful, but that they are simply overly optimistic w.r.t. timelines.

Also...


You did not answer my question: why do you care in the context of the bet if BFL buys someone else's technology?
"Oh no, if they buy ASICs from someone, then they might deliver"... makes you look not confident about your scamming accusations.
It is like saying "I am not betting because I might lose the bet". If so, then just say the latter.

_My_ bet is predicated on the theory that BFL were misrepresenting various thing in order to get suckers to send them pre-order funds.

From day one I expected some possibility that BFL were scammers so I had no interest in sending them money and also have not paid terribly close attention to the details of their shtick , but here is what I believe they had tried to present:

 - They have some engineer who is also an officer with their company working in France.  He designed a chip that worked, but for the good of their customers it could use some tweaking, and that explained some of the earlier delays.

 - They at least implied that they were in sole control of the processing core that they were going to be delivering.

If someone who gave enough of a shit to follow BFL's various claims want to chime in and say whether, based on BFL's statements of fact, it is a fair or unfair take-away that BFL was supposed to be more than just an average packager of someone else's IP, that would be interesting.

If I were interested in being an early adopter in ASIC, it would be highly important to me that the vendor I use is not just some re-seller of someone else gear.  This is because I would want some advantage from taking the early-adopter risk and a vendor who just cobbles together something which sometimes works (especially if taken apart to make the fan blow air the right way as with other of BFL's toys so I've read) is not a very compelling supplier.

The best available SHA256 semiconductor IP on the market does 73 Mhash/Joule at 130nm. I have tracked it myself, see: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95762.0

Therefore, if BFL delivers anything significantly above 73 Mhash/Joule (even if it is a mere shrink from 130nm to 65nm), it is a very strong indicator that the tech was optimized specifically for BFL or by BFL (even a shrink would require rework). This is why my bet specifies a Mhash/Joule number. If BFL was just re-using an existing non-efficient SHA256 implementation, they would fail to meet the Mhash/Joule target, and you would win the bet.

All you need is to tell me which Mhash/Joule target would give you enough confidence to bet :)

So, you want me to bet on some power metrics under the assumption that that will demonstrate something tangible about whether BFL are a bunch of lying scammers?  'Fraid not.  For one, I have not studied mining power consumption in general, much less circuit simulation and die size issues.  Plus, most of the numbers flying around were likely pulled straight out of someone's ass so they are hardly the basis for a logical chain of reasoning.  There is way to much chance of some technicality or other info popping up to make such a bet.  I don't play around with stuff that I don't understand, but if you think you have some ace up your sleeve to wiggle a victory out of your pet metrics/rational, best of luck to you.

BTW, the reason I've not thought much about power consumption issues is that it never made much sense to me to mine...at least not as a money-making adventure.  Easier to just buy BTC and sit on them, and I've never regretted that decision.  I doubt that I'll buy any mining gear until the second generation of ASIC, and even then hash/power or hash/time will not be as big a consideration to me as other things.  I'll only speculate on mining as a play on a coordinated government directed attack on the Bitcoin network, and in that case the geographical and network topography considerations will be much more interesting.

Then don't run around shouting "scam!" on stuff you don't understand. You have the right, and it is normal for you to be suspicious about it. But as I said, preface your criticism with "I think that", or "it seems to me that".

I sense, that this is true:

http://i50.tinypic.com/6tcwb9.jpg

 ;D

http://i46.tinypic.com/6z7g5d.jpg

Good News is there is [yet another] delay!

Courtesy of BFL: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/jalapeno-single-sc-support/640-shipping-january-14-not-4.html

Oh yeah...!!!! Doing a little dance....!

He will make it up by telling his customers how awesome their hardware will be...even though it is not in their hands....yep.

If they made honest mistakes, technical mistakes, etc.. they could easily be announced and this above average
group of technical people here would understand.

But they missed so many dates now that cannot be explained by technical mistakes that one can easily assume
that in order to get a majority of the pre-order money from customers that they outright lied about their initial
delivery dates. This was purposely done to collect as much money as possible because they knew their previous
fpga sales showed just how long people would wait without asking for a refund.

Once again.. I am not saying they are not delivering a product and are an outright scam. What I am saying is
that, I THINK, they knew Oct-Nov was impossible to meet. I THINK they thought Dec-Jan was possible and that
is where the technical problems are now appearing now that they are finally moving the project along.

Evidence will probably come out at a later date showing who is correct. At this point I THINK one has to consider
the end result though. That lying or technical errors are giving the same end result. No product delivered. No demo
unit. Nothing! They really need to start being honest with what is going on and tell customers the truth. Is that
too much to ask? Not at all. And since they are not doing that I propose they have created a nest of lies that
is getting so complex that they can no longer do that. So just stall. Stall. Stall. Until they can wow people with
a working demo.

This whole thing is a waste of time...why can't someone just make a generic ASIC that can do anything/everything?

Those exist. We call them CPUs.

Has anyone tried to mine with them?

Yes, apparently it didn't work out too well in the face of Greed.