Bitcoin Forum

Basically.....Do You Have A Moral Responsibility When Buying Things?

On a smaller scale if you buy a certain product more of that product will get produced as a result, does that imprison other people or does it depend on the product? How do we know what products are moral to buy?

Hard question. You're responsible if you buy it that's for sure.

But the problem is that you can't buy "moral" products, that just don't exist. Clothes are all from Asia, electronics too, and all the garbage will end in Africa.

That's just how the world is, you don't have a choice. So you can feel guilty but it won"t change anything.

You could give yourself a moral responsibility when you're buying products, but in reality, the only way to create some change is to be at the top of the chain, and by that point if you wish to keep your position you would have needed to confine your morals. It's... cheap labor that the impoverished countries provide for us. That is their economic role.

When you do your day-to-day tasks, do you think about suffering Africans? Most likely, you wouldn't, since they're not a large part of your life. Rarely do people go out of their way to help and donate to these people, since although they can complain about it, they do not truly care. People love to talk, but they never take action.

No that's just stupid.

In fact, when rich people buy stuff, that creates jobs for people. It's a good thing.

My buyings are too small to have a real impact so I guess I just don't think about this... but you have a point here.

So you think. But your buyings are probably the same as the average American, and they're always 4 times too much.

But let's face the truth, even if you would want to take care of others and be careful about the moral aspect and all... How could you do?

There is not a single brand which is higly moral or even sustainable.

All rotten ;D

Imprison them in what way? Are you implying that employees producing a certain product are prisoners because they voluntarily contracted with an employer to exchange their labor for wages?

It depends of the scale of moral conflict buying some products brings. If I new something was manufactured with blood of young children from Africa I would definitely won't touch it.
But if I know that there is not help to it, and I won't change anything by not buying something then I really don't care. Life is hard.

That is just so not true.. If everybody thinks like this, and everybody keeps buying stuff that is produced by child labor, ofcourse there will be child labor.

If everybody decides not to buy certain stuff, the production of that stuff will change. But if you think like this, and I think like that and everybody else does, no change is ever possible.

Don't underestimate the power of the masses in these type of changes. They are the bulk of the consumers, not just the one rich guy who buys a yacht.

I don't see any connection between these two things. African suffer or many people in underdeveloped country are made to suffer because some of the so called richest and powerful country like to grab all of the valuable resource of those countries.

Well you know what happen to old yacht?

They go wreck on African ground. Africa is cleary the world trashcan. We put everything here, every old electronic device you throw is probably finishing in Africa.

Truth to be told, most people here shouldn't care. To be able to afford a computer and and internet connection in the first place means that we're at a better position than people in Africa in countries with close to zero infrastructures and no economy. And I don't think that the other side cares either. If you were growing up in an environment like that, would you care more about everyday survival or class initiating warfare?

Well you could (should? I don't know... Maybe...) care because we're exploiting them and their resources as hell.

So we are responsible whatever liberalists say.

But is it bad? Probably. Should we change things? Certainly. Will we? Well you already know the answer...

The aim that OP have in creating this thread is to be applauded. Especially in today's world when the moral can be bought from almost everyone. It is only matter of price and not of yes or not. The minority who resist to such temptations is made every day fewer and fewer.

Anyhow I think that the put of everyone in a sack is not the right way to propose such problem. Have I moral when buy something? For me personally this question have no meaning. What does it mean for me to have moral when buy something. I buy everything I can with the money earned with my work. What have to do my bought with my moral? I have not stolen to anyone my money. In this case maybe may have meaning the question. But must be created only for them who steal not for everyone. Or lets take Bill Gates. He have make all his money with his work. Have not stolen a dime to no one. He can have everything is offered in this world. Have meaning to speak about moral in this case. He spent the money have from his work. Honestly earned. I think not.

So to whom is directed the OP?

In general, people ought to buy things that ADD VALUE to their lives, as long as they do not impinge on others.  If the guy BOUGHT the yacht, there were workers who were PAID to build it.

Products made by slave labor?  I wouldn't buy.

Buy cigarettes or tobacco company stock?  Ah, no., profits off the addicted...

*   *   *

OP writes:

"How do we know what products are moral to buy?"

That is a problem.  But, as it so complex, don't spend your time worrying about every Made in China T-Shirt, electronic widget, etc.  There are bigger problems to worry about.

stop buying chocolate.

most of it comes from african child slave labors.

high tech stuff mostly incorporates exploitation of valuable ressources which usually are located in 3rd world countries.

companies working there give a shit about people and enviroment - all in the name of the holy profit.

hail capitalism.

Then perhaps you should get off of your computer, and especially your cellphone.

Tantalum, most of which comes from Zaire (Democratic Republic of the Congo, whichever name is more current), is used in capacitors.  No tantalum, no hi-tech.

World commerce IS sometimes very dirty.  Prove any allegations, and try to make things better (as Apple is trying to re Tantalum).  

Or stand by your convictions to not participate...  <=== You will find that very hard.

im not eating chocolate, please let me the other stuff^^

The only way Africans suffer from a super rich guy buying a yacht, is if the money used for buying that yacht in particular was somehow stolen from those African people that you mentioned, other than that there's no negative impact at all plus if a rich guy buys something, more works would be created to further make those things again and if someone doesn't buy, the opposite happens since that's it's cycle.

In the way of buying things shapes the world more than voting does.  If people buy meat the producers will provide more meat, if you buy vegetarian food more of it gets produced - for example, im not saying either is more moral than the other atm.

Well, you have to work right? how many people would like to live almost or totally self sufficient i wonder? but cant because all the reasonable land has been taken.

You are personally responsible for your own deeds. You buy your luxury things, it is your effort and does not affect anybody who is not directly linked to you.

there is always a link between human so when a rish man buy someting that he don't need it will affect someone else if he donate the money he spend it will be a help for the humankind ;)

of course it does. where do you think are the ressources coming from...

Im not saying there are not bigger problems to worry about but what do you think they are?


Well its directed at everyone i guess but do you think the richer you are the more moral responsibility you have when buying things? or everyone is equal?

Economy is a zero-sum game. So it definitely shows why Africans are poor.

The important part of this thread is the "not direct" part. You'll always take care of those directly linked to you. But Op tries to suggest that you maybe are also responsible for the not direct consequences.

...

WhatTheGox

Bigger problems?  I can only offer opinions:

1)  Creeping government (authoritarian) takeover of our liberties and money. .govs are broke and hungry.  Worst risk IMO.

2)  Risk of stupidly getting into more wars.  It has taken me a long time to turn libertarian (from conservative).

3)  Moral bankruptcy / societal disintegration.  Wealth concentration and declining standards of behavior ignite equivalent of civil war.

4)  "Black Swans" -- low-probability, unpredictable but heavy impact events like an EMP, mass terrorism, sudden economic collapse.

not always, maybe it come from other rich people that are less rich than the richer, a very poor guy after all don't have the money anymore to "pay anyone indirectly" minus himself

we are at the point for some people, where the money they have are all used to no die..

If we don't buy products that will not help those who develops and improve the products they are selling which also leads to lay offs. So nothing to worry if you buy a product regardless of where they are from because you are helping those who makes a living by developing products and the labor industry.

In a zero sum game, for every gain, there is a equivalent loss.

Let's say my neighbor discovers a cure for cancer and ends up making $50 billion dollars as a result of his discovery.

Does the fact that he made $50 billion dollars make me and the rest of the world poorer?

That's bit a strange answer. So I can buy anything I want ju_st because it'll help the people who built it? What about the pros and cons?

And you're saying it helps them, but do they deserve it?
I mean Steve Jobs was a complet asshole and an idea stealer. Do I want to help him?

This is difficult question with good background.
I think it does not matter if this is Very expensive Yacht or just ordinary goods which almost everyone buying daily.

The main question would be, do I know how my decision will impact the others? Do I care about it?
I would start from personal responsibility of using money and goods I have.

Ok fair enough maybe some of those things are a bigger worry i guess it depends who you are.


The fact that he charges for the cancer cure does make the world more indebted to him vs if he gave the cure away for free or for cheap etc.  Perhaps its a spectrum.

You make a good point though some things seem to actually add to our quality of life as humans and its very easy to see.  Other things dont seem so obvious.

Does anyone find it a little bit messed up with all the knowledge we have in 2016 we cant house and feed the world though? and with almost no complications.

I've never bought a yatch, so i can't tell you the truth, basically when i spend my moeny, gained whit my work whitout abusing people i'm not doing a wrong thing

So if you worked harder for your money does that give you more of a right to buy whatever you choose?   just asking.

Like is someone is on benefits or has won the lottery (so haven't really "worked hard" for their money) do you think their money shouldn't have the same value as yours?

Im justing asking dont take offence or anything here :)

You think you're not abusing people, it doesn't mean you don't.

Think a bit further your action, or at least your immediate actions.

You probably impact life of strangers on a rather heavy tune with just your buys!

When you buy blood diamonds, the Africans might suffer... but a yacht made in any other country other than Africa would not harm them. It might be better for them if

the product was made there, because it would have created some job opportunities. Some countries outsource their workforce from Africa because they are cheaper and

that might be unethical. {The old slave trading} If no child labor is involved, I would say... Go for it... you stimulate the economy by buying stuff, and you create job

opportunities.  ;)

Where do you think his 50 billion $ comes from?

Someone always has to pay.

This does not matter one bit, the rich will become richer and the poor poorer, life continues regardless. If that rich guy  distributed that money among the poor Africans, I am sure not only will he be helping in a big way but will be more satisfied by doing a humanitarian deed than sipping cocktails in his luxury yacht.

Yes the problem in the world today, which divides the rich and poor countries is the distribution of wealth, if we all give a little, it will take a huge impact on the lives of those who has less fortunate.

I respectfully disagree.  All coercive (taxes used for wealth transfer to the poor ("welfare"), taxes for foreign aid, etc.) schemes of redistributing money have been uniformly shown to hurt the recipients.

Look at the poor in the USA.  They are no better off than they were in the 1960s.  Were such wealth transfers EVER shown to be successful, poverty would have been solved.

I invite rebuttal.  Please show us ANY cases where gifts or other wealth transfers have helped in any significant way (that is, not just an occasional anecdotal person truly helped).

Strange question. I'll reply with another. Has anyone seen an African boat? I've seen some locally-built fishing boats in Algeria, and they didn't have anything in common with the yachts I've seen in Monte Carlo. And I don't think there's the slightest thing coming from Africa in a yacht.

Yes. Allocating resources in a wasteful way increases suffering.

Money is power. With power comes responsibility. The super rich have a responsibility to use their power in non wasteful ways. They must act as stewards of the worlds wealth rather than owners of it.

Its not really of their purchase, I mean yes in a way it does. Its more on how they move funds.

But the bigger impact is when they have companies in those countries and they are given a tax break for being there then pull out.

Now all the people who do worked for that company have to go find a job all over again.

I wish this topic could be more specific. Are we talking about the super rich in Africa or super rich in Europe/America/Asia?. If we are talking about the super rich in Africa, then it is a matter of concern. Rich people in Africa are known to exploit the poor for their own gains. If I saw a super rich person in Africa owning a yacht, then definitely it affects the African directly.

The yacht is not so expensive, as you may be think. Super rich person can buy used yacht at 60% - 80% off from new yacht price. Even truck driver can find used yacht at 30 - 50 BTC price level  ;)   

In a way, because resources are limited and buying a yatch means less resources for the less fortunate, but most people don't give a damn about any of that. It's just not a sane to think, if you have to feel bad about every luxury you have in the first world then we would always be depressed since drinking clean water is a luxury within itself. But yeah a yatch is overkill, but as long as we live in a capitalist system it is what it is.

In my opinion the answer to the 1st question is...... yes, but that depends on your own personal morals, if it feels wrong to you then dont do it, but dont enforce your morals on others

the 2nd questions is similar answer buy something if you feel it is right t o buy everyone can justify their own purchases

I've been reading your question and your statement repeatedly... its a tough question.. but all I could say is when you buy something, or acquire something, legally and with tax, I don't think that there is problem with that, you must be happy with that, besides, when you buy things you are helping those who made that product..  :)