Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin => Hardware => Topic started by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 01:22:06 PM



Title: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 01:22:06 PM
Obviously, they don't have enough bitcoins and are processing only partial refunds. They have speculated and sold large part of the bitcoins they got from their customers as "pre-orders". They were wrong expecting a lower bitcoin rate, however. This is why bicoin/$ exchange rate will now continue to rise as they need to buy bitcoins to make even partial refunds!

PS
The original title of this thread was: "WOW! BFL refuse full bitcoin refunds."
However, using his moderator privileges gmaxwell decided to change it to match his own preferences.
Go on, gmaxwell. Mock at other forum thread you don't like!

To help you avoid partial bitcoin refunds by some ASIC startups, here is a short manual I've compiled for you:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=136615.0


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: cedivad on January 17, 2013, 01:23:05 PM
You can get a $ refund, correct?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: greyhawk on January 17, 2013, 01:24:39 PM
http://howardhughes.trinity.duke.edu/uploads/assets/image/Chisom%20Amalunweze/Surprised%20face.gif


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: muyuu on January 17, 2013, 01:26:15 PM
Can't have it both ways.

If they refunded fully in either dollars or BTC they could be milked as an speculation device with guaranteed profit.

Their costs are in dollars so you cannot expect anything else as a refund really.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 01:29:36 PM
You can get a $ refund, correct?
I guess I can get both US dollars and Zimbabwean dollars if I want to?
But people didn't pay in $. They paid in bitcoins and want bitcoin refunds.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: deadweasel on January 17, 2013, 01:30:49 PM
Yeah, this OP clearly has his head up his ass.  To expect full bitcoin refunds is absolutely inane -- they made it clear that would not be the case.  They made it clear they transferred their BTCs into dollars the same day -- so they weren't using your coins for speculation.

That's why it was better the WHOLE TIME to just buy bitcoins and let them go up in value.  I can say that in hindsight, anyway, but it's what I did (except for a single jally order which I had refunded when I saw the way things were going).  I think speculating thus far is more profitable than mining.

If you didn't read everything before you made your purchase then you have a lot to learn.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 01:33:07 PM
Their costs are in dollars so you cannot expect anything else as a refund really.
I thought they don't use customers money to pay their salaries and expences. Didn't they say they've attracted venture capital?!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Photon939 on January 17, 2013, 01:47:55 PM
BFL used bitpay, they received dollars when you paid so that's what you get back. All the stuff on their site is priced in dollars, they just happen to also accept coins as payment. It sucks that you lost out on the price increases but out of all the real issues with BFL, this is not one and has been discussed at length already.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: DobZombie on January 17, 2013, 01:48:50 PM
Obviously, they don't have enough bitcoins and are processing only partial refunds. They have speculated and sold large part of the bitcoins they got from their customers as "pre-orders". They were wrong expecting a lower bitcoin rate, however. This is why bicoin/$ exchange rate will now continue to rise as they need to buy bitcoins to make even partial refunds!

would you fuck off already, ya dickhead


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 01:59:24 PM
BFL used bitpay, they received dollars when you paid so that's what you get back.
They received bitcoins, not dollars. I can not send dollars to the bitcoin address they've specified on their invoce.

It is entirely up to BFL what service they'll use to receive bitcoin payments. I have no control what they do once they get my bitcoins. If they decide to use Vatican to receive my bitcoins, will I get back a Bible for refund?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: cedivad on January 17, 2013, 02:04:07 PM
BFL used bitpay, they received dollars when you paid so that's what you get back.
They received bitcoins, not dollars. I can not send dollars to the bitcoin address they've specified on their invoce.

It is entirely up to BFL what service they'll use to receive bitcoin payments. I have no control what they do once they get my bitcoins. If they decide to use Vatican to receive my bitcoins, will I get back a Bible for refund?

http://howardhughes.trinity.duke.edu/uploads/assets/image/Chisom%20Amalunweze/Surprised%20face.gif


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: davout on January 17, 2013, 02:05:06 PM
BFL used bitpay, they received dollars when you paid so that's what you get back.
They received bitcoins, not dollars. I can not send dollars to the bitcoin address they've specified on their invoce.

It is entirely up to BFL what service they'll use to receive bitcoin payments. I have no control what they do once they get my bitcoins. If they decide to use Vatican to receive my bitcoins, will I get back a Bible for refund?
Legal tender laws in the US = private debt can always be settled in USD.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: SLok on January 17, 2013, 02:11:29 PM
BFL's stance:

"If you are going to use BTC you need to understand how an exchange works. Many of you have chosen to use the BitPay option on our order page. Our products are offered for a USD price. BitPay takes your BTC, exchanges them for USD AT THE CURRENT EXCHANGE RATE and sends us your payment. If you ask for a refund, BitPay takes the dollars back from us, converts them back to BTC AT THE CURRENT EXCHANGE RATE and sends you the BTC. So if the exchange rate changes between the time you make your purchase and the time you get your refund, you will get a different amount back than you paid in."

What of the above is to hard to understand? Would you have cried so hard for bitcoins if the exchange rate would now be $2?
Thank Forum for the ignore button, good riddance to bad rubbish.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 02:13:08 PM
Legal tender laws in the US = private debt can always be settled in USD.
Of course, they CAN! However, their debt is denominated in bitcoins, not in dollars! I gave them bitcoins, not dollars! They MUST settle this debt AT CURRENT bitcoin/$ rate, not at the rate that was months ago!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 02:17:06 PM
BFL's stance:
BFL' stance is different from MY stance. I'm right. They are wrong.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: flower1024 on January 17, 2013, 02:18:10 PM
BFL's stance:
BFL' stance is different from MY stance. I'm right. They are wrong.

LOL
at least you are funny ;)


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Exception on January 17, 2013, 02:18:22 PM
Legal tender laws in the US = private debt can always be settled in USD.
Of course, they CAN! However, their debt is denominated in bitcoins, not in dollars! I gave them bitcoins, not dollars! They MUST settle this debt AT CURRENT bitcoin/$ rate, not at the rate that was months ago!

I'm fairly new to the bitcoin community and seeing people like this make me fear for its future.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: tbcoin on January 17, 2013, 02:19:56 PM
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/66-using-btc-exchange.html

Quote
Using BTC with an Exchange
by BFL_Jody  , 01-17-2013

If you are going to use BTC you need to understand how an exchange works. Many of you have chosen to use the BitPay option on our order page. Our products are offered for a USD price. BitPay takes your BTC, exchanges them for USD AT THE CURRENT EXCHANGE RATE and sends us your payment. If you ask for a refund, BitPay takes the dollars back from us, converts them back to BTC AT THE CURRENT EXCHANGE RATE and sends you the BTC. So if the exchange rate changes between the time you make your purchase and the time you get your refund, you will get a different amount back than you paid in.

I feel bad when our customers think we are cheating them because BTC has increased in value.



Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Grinder on January 17, 2013, 02:35:44 PM
However, their debt is denominated in bitcoins, not in dollars!
I never thought I would defend BFL, but this is where you are exactly wrong. Once you understand that (which unfortunately seems unlikely), it will all make sense.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 02:35:55 PM
Using BTC with an Exchange
by BFL_Jody  , 01-17-2013
If I wanted to use BTC Exchange I would have gone to MtGox. If I wanted to buy dollars certainly, I would have done this. But strangely, I wanted to buy an ASIC. At that time BFL seemed a good idea to me. So, I bought an ASIC. Not to BFL's stance... They claim they sold me dollars!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: cosmicone on January 17, 2013, 02:36:55 PM
This is no different than any exchange... My company makes purchases from the USA all the time, so we pay in CAD, which is converted to USD.  If there is a return, we get USD back, which is then converted into CAD.. we almost always lose a little in the conversion as CC rates always include their cut.

As much as it sucks for the consumer, it's just how it is... I mean what if BTC had dropped... would there be any complaints about getting your USD refund?  No.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: tbcoin on January 17, 2013, 02:39:44 PM
http://itsunderstood.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/talk_to_wall.png


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: flower1024 on January 17, 2013, 02:41:24 PM
Using BTC with an Exchange
by BFL_Jody  , 01-17-2013
If I wanted to use BTC Exchange I would have gone to MtGox. If I wanted to buy dollars certainly, I would have done this. But strangely, I wanted to buy an ASIC. At that time BFL seemed a good idea to me. So, I bought an ASIC. Not to BFL's stance... They claim they sold me dollars!

no they sold you a product nominated in USD.
you just used btc to purchase it.
same would happen if you buy a product nominated in EUR but paid in USD.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 03:07:41 PM
.. we almost always lose a little in the conversion as CC rates always include their cut.
Sure. This is why I have a contract signed with my credit card issuer, to control how much I lose in such conversions. If I purchase USD priced products the credit card issuing bank (My Bank running my account in CAD) is doing the conversion for me and is sending USD to the US-based merchant. The TRANSACTION currency is the USD. This is why the refund is in USD, as this is the TRANSACTION currency!

The above is in total contrast to what BFL are doing. BFL customers do not have anything to do with BitPay. They don't have any contract signed with BitPay. On the contrary, this is BFL that is having a contract signed with BitPay. BitPay is doing the conversion on behalf of BFL and of course BFL have the full control when and what % of the received bitcoins they want converted!

By insisting that bitcoin payments should be refunded in fiat currencies you are actually compromising the future of bitcoins. No one will be willing to pay in bitcoins or lend in bitcoins as they risk getting a refund or a redemption that is only a fraction of what they have paid a month, a year, or a decade ago!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 03:13:16 PM
no they sold you a product nominated in USD.
you just used btc to purchase it.
No, you can not say that unless the "product" they sold me is actually a bond!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: KWH on January 17, 2013, 03:22:29 PM
no they sold you a product nominated in USD.
you just used btc to purchase it.
No, you can not say that unless the "product" they sold me is actually a bond!

Am I reading this right? You want to make a profit off your refund? BTC is worth more now than then so you want full BTC amount returned so you profit? If so, you ain't right in the head. You got the USD/BTC value when you sent the coins and are not entitled to anything more. You are getting the same "value" in a refund, stop being obtuse already. If you can't see/understand this reasoning, you should get off the internet and look for a job flipping burgers where you don't need to think as much.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: tbcoin on January 17, 2013, 03:23:51 PM
STOP

Pretend to use businesses that accept bitcoin as perfect speculative platforms where you never lose, is absurd.

Ohh I'm a smart guy, I do a preorder for $90k in btc, if in a few months the price of bitcoin collapses, cancel and request a refund in dollars or obviously a lot more bitcoins that I paid initially, if the bitcoin going through the roof, I request refund in bitcoin. I WILL BE RICH


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 03:37:28 PM
Am I reading this right? You want to make a profit off your refund?
You ain't right in the head, right? You can't even do simple math!

If Payment=XXXXX bitcoins=Refund
Then Payment-Refund=0

Why do you fail to understand that I had the bitcoins in my pocket BEFORE sending them to BFL? How am I more profitable, doing payment to BFL and getting a refund for the same BTC amount, than those that didn't pay anything to BFL but just have the bitcoins in their pocket all the time? How adding or subtracting ZERO on either side of a profitability equation will change its meaning?

Jesus... There are all kind of idiots on these forums!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: molecular on January 17, 2013, 03:41:28 PM
You can get a $ refund, correct?
I guess I can get both US dollars and Zimbabwean dollars if I want to?
But people didn't pay in $. They paid in bitcoins and want bitcoin refunds.

that's not true. I payed in bitcoin and assumed they'd be "converted" to USD at the time of payment.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: KWH on January 17, 2013, 03:44:48 PM
Am I reading this right? You want to make a profit off your refund?
You ain't right in the head, right? You can't even do simple math!

If Payment=XXXXX bitcoins=Refund
Then Payment-Refund=0

Why do you fail to understand that I had the bitcoins in my pocket BEFORE sending them to BFL? How am I more profitable, doing payment to BFL and getting a refund for the same BTC amount, than those that didn't pay anything to BFL but just have the bitcoins in their pocket all the time? How adding or subtracting ZERO on either side of a profitability equation will change its meaning?

Jesus... There are all kind of idiots on these forums!


Jesus... There are all kind of idiots on these forums! How true!

Edit: I forgot to add a picture for you to gaze at.

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/bender-futurama-butthurt-gif-467354_zps8e06547c.gif


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: flower1024 on January 17, 2013, 03:45:15 PM
You can get a $ refund, correct?
I guess I can get both US dollars and Zimbabwean dollars if I want to?
But people didn't pay in $. They paid in bitcoins and want bitcoin refunds.

that's not true. I payed in bitcoin and assumed they'd be "converted" to USD at the time of payment.

no need to "assume".
bitpay does print the usd amount on his invoice and does even update the btc value which need to be payed if you take to long to pay your invoice.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: RoadStress on January 17, 2013, 03:45:39 PM
As much as it sucks for the consumer, it's just how it is... I mean what if BTC had dropped... would there be any complaints about getting your USD refund?  No.

maybe becoin could answer this and maybe we can stop having 100 threads about this topic. if BTC was 1$ today i bet you wanted your refund in $ not in BTC.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: flower1024 on January 17, 2013, 03:48:35 PM
As much as it sucks for the consumer, it's just how it is... I mean what if BTC had dropped... would there be any complaints about getting your USD refund?  No.

maybe becoin could answer this and maybe we can stop having 100 threads about this topic. if BTC was 1$ today i bet you wanted your refund in $ not in BTC.

i guess he means: if paid in btc only refunds in btc. if payed in usd refund only in usd.
this has some merit.

but nearly no company would do this as their expenses are in usd (at least for now). to much risk for them.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 03:50:02 PM
STOP
...
if in a few months the price of bitcoin collapses, cancel and request a refund in dollars
STOP

if in a few months the price of bitcoin collapses, BFL will repay all refunds for bitcoin payment in bitcoins as hti is the right thing to do! They would have been absolutely legal and they would have win big. But unfortunately for them, bitcoin appreciated and they got toast. They didn't hedge their speculation against bitcoin appreciation! This is why now, as bitcoin refunds with BFL keep growing, the price of bitcoin is rising.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 03:56:01 PM
if BTC was 1$ today i bet you wanted your refund in $ not in BTC.
Already answered above.

I didn't buy my BTC before I sent them to BFL. I bought them months before I decided I want to purchase an ASIC. What a miserable failure? Never purchase anything from "pre-order" crooks!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Jack1Rip1BurnIt on January 17, 2013, 04:00:34 PM
@Becoin....you are an idiot and should leave the bitcoin community entirely if you can't figure it out. Just sayin'


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 04:00:44 PM
but nearly no company would do this as their expenses are in usd (at least for now). to much risk for them.
Simple. Such companies should not accept bitcoin payments and claim they are part of the bitcoin community!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: flower1024 on January 17, 2013, 04:02:58 PM
but nearly no company would do this as their expenses are in usd (at least for now). to much risk for them.
Simple. Such companies should not accept bitcoin payments and claim they are part of the bitcoin community!

tell this bitpay... they offer exactly this service.
and i think its a good thing because it does allow merchants to participate in bitcoins which otherwise dont have any chance.

anyhow: i'll leave this thread. sometimes you should just realize that if anybody has another opinion than you that they could be right.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: greyhawk on January 17, 2013, 04:04:48 PM
anyhow: i'll leave this thread. sometimes you should just realize that if anybody has another opinion than you that they could be right.

Yeah, it's no use really. It's been explained to him for four days straight now by some dozen people why he's wrong and it still doesn't register.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 04:12:52 PM
but nearly no company would do this as their expenses are in usd (at least for now). to much risk for them.
Simple. Such companies should not accept bitcoin payments and claim they are part of the bitcoin community!
tell this bitpay... they offer exactly this service.
I wasn't aware that bitpay is selling insurance policies to merchants against bitcoin appreciation! Where do I read about it?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: tbcoin on January 17, 2013, 04:13:36 PM
Am I reading this right? You want to make a profit off your refund?
You ain't right in the head, right? You can't even do simple math!

If Payment=XXXXX bitcoins=Refund
Then Payment-Refund=0
...

if the bitcoin price drop, BFL will convert dollars to bitcoin and you will received more bitcoins than you paid. I would like to see you applying your rule and returning to BFL the exedente.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 04:27:22 PM
i guess he means: if paid in btc only refunds in btc. if payed in usd refund only in usd.
Very strange, isn't it?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: tbcoin on January 17, 2013, 04:30:10 PM
i guess he means: if paid in btc only refunds in btc. if payed in usd refund only in usd.
Very strange, isn't it?

no, they are not an exchange.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Jack1Rip1BurnIt on January 17, 2013, 04:43:44 PM
I guess I'm gonna have to use this example again for the 5 year olds.

Why do people not get this? It was NOT priced in bitcoins!!! Here's an example of what did NOT happen...

(First Day) BFL Single SC - 100 btc or $621
(Next Day) BFL Single SC - 100 btc or $857
(Months later) BFL Single SC - 100 btc or $1424

Get it? The price has stayed in US dollars. Not hard to figure out.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: SgtSpike on January 17, 2013, 05:20:31 PM
Take it to a courtroom becoin, and prove us all wrong.  Until then, you're just making yourself look like an idiot here.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: deadweasel on January 17, 2013, 05:41:56 PM
Take it to a courtroom becoin, and prove us all wrong.  Until then, you're just making yourself look like an idiot here.

Repeatedly making himself look like an idiot.  What a hard effing head. 

Grow up becoin.  You're wrong.  It's that simple.  Now try to learn from it.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 05:44:24 PM
Take it to a courtroom becoin, and prove us all wrong.  Until then, you're just making yourself look like an idiot here.
There is no point in responding to insults from people with large vested interest in BFL scam, SgtSpike. They are just that - BFL cheerleaders, jumping to defend the mood of their investors (pardon me, clients, as per BFL classification).


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: SgtSpike on January 17, 2013, 05:45:29 PM
Take it to a courtroom becoin, and prove us all wrong.  Until then, you're just making yourself look like an idiot here.
There is no point in responding to insults from people with large vested interest in BFL scam, SgtSpike. They are just that - BFL cheerleaders, jumping to defend the mood of their investors (pardon me, clients, as per BFL classification).
Ok, then take it to a courtroom and STFU about it here.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 05:48:26 PM
Why do people not get this? It was NOT priced in bitcoins!!! Here's an example of what did NOT happen...
You are wrong!!!
It WAS and still IS priced in bitcoins as well. I don't give wishful examples. I give proof!

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/8656/bflk.jpg


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: tbcoin on January 17, 2013, 05:48:55 PM
Take it to a courtroom becoin, and prove us all wrong.  Until then, you're just making yourself look like an idiot here.
There is no point in responding to insults from people with large vested interest in BFL scam, SgtSpike. They are just that - BFL cheerleaders, jumping to defend the mood of their investors (pardon me, clients, as per BFL classification).

This is not about BFL, this is about the logic and functioning of all businesses that accept bitcoin payments.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 05:50:42 PM
Ok, then take it to a courtroom and STFU about it here.
I will, I will buddy... Take a seat and be patient. It takes time.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: SgtSpike on January 17, 2013, 06:02:19 PM
Why do people not get this? It was NOT priced in bitcoins!!! Here's an example of what did NOT happen...
You are wrong!!!
It WAS and still IS priced in bitcoins as well. I don't give wishful examples. I give proof!

http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www.cgi/http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/8656/bflk.jpg

That is not pricing in Bitcoins.  That is asking for payment in Bitcoins in an amount equivalent to the USD pricing.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: deadweasel on January 17, 2013, 06:07:26 PM
I wish we could delete this thread and delete becoin. 

He's clearly trolling us now.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Herodes on January 17, 2013, 06:08:29 PM
Obviously, they don't have enough bitcoins and are processing only partial refunds. They have speculated and sold large part of the bitcoins they got from their customers as "pre-orders". They were wrong expecting a lower bitcoin rate, however. This is why bicoin/$ exchange rate will now continue to rise as they need to buy bitcoins to make even partial refunds!


becoin: Did they promise to do full BTC refunds at any point ?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: RoadStress on January 17, 2013, 06:26:21 PM
STOP
...
if in a few months the price of bitcoin collapses, cancel and request a refund in dollars
STOP

if in a few months the price of bitcoin collapses, BFL will repay all refunds for bitcoin payment in bitcoins as hti is the right thing to do! They would have been absolutely legal and they would have win big. But unfortunately for them, bitcoin appreciated and they got toast. They didn't hedge their speculation against bitcoin appreciation! This is why now, as bitcoin refunds with BFL keep growing, the price of bitcoin is rising.

how do you know that the price collapses they will repay in BTC? how? if you feel you have been ripped feel free to stop whining on a forum and go to the police and end this stupid story. you are either a tired troll or just plain stupid. end of story


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: tbcoin on January 17, 2013, 06:32:17 PM
STOP
...
if in a few months the price of bitcoin collapses, cancel and request a refund in dollars
STOP

if in a few months the price of bitcoin collapses, BFL will repay all refunds for bitcoin payment in bitcoins as hti is the right thing to do! They would have been absolutely legal and they would have win big. But unfortunately for them, bitcoin appreciated and they got toast. They didn't hedge their speculation against bitcoin appreciation! This is why now, as bitcoin refunds with BFL keep growing, the price of bitcoin is rising.

how do you know that the price collapses they will repay in BTC? how? if you feel you have been ripped feel free to stop whining on a forum and go to the police and end this stupid story. you are either a tired troll or just plain stupid. end of story

The point is that no matter that they pay in bitcoin, because would pay MORE BITCOINS THAN YOU PAY INITIALLY (same value).

USD to BTC conversion, neither more nor less


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 06:33:12 PM
becoin: Did they promise to do full BTC refunds at any point ?
Do you have to respect the law if haven't promised to respect it?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 06:37:24 PM
USD to BTC conversion, neither more nor less
Sure. BFL can do whatever conversion they want after they have received customer bitcoins. Customers can't do anything about it.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: JWU42 on January 17, 2013, 06:46:42 PM
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab180/rimewind/Do-not-feed-the-troll.png


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 07:02:34 PM
That is not pricing in Bitcoins.  That is asking for payment in Bitcoins in an amount equivalent to the USD pricing.
Have you heard about a commercial document called INVOICE issued by a seller to the buyer, indicating the products, quantities, and agreed prices for products or services the seller has provided the buyer? Go read somethin'!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: squeept on January 17, 2013, 07:35:41 PM
This thread is missing chromosomes.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: greyhawk on January 17, 2013, 08:11:11 PM
This thread is missing chromosomes.

Actually it's missing neurons, but I know what you mean.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 08:18:19 PM
Bitcoin/$ rate is exploding. Looks like a lot of bitcoins needed for refunds are missing, huh?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: cedivad on January 17, 2013, 08:22:28 PM
Bitcoin/$ rate is exploding. Looks like a lot of bitcoins needed for refunds are missing, huh?
Bullshit.

Please stop.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: molecular on January 17, 2013, 08:27:25 PM
That is not pricing in Bitcoins.  That is asking for payment in Bitcoins in an amount equivalent to the USD pricing.
Have you heard about a commercial document called INVOICE issued by a seller to the buyer, indicating the products, quantities, and agreed prices for products or services the seller has provided the buyer? Go read somethin'!

On the pic you provided is says the USD price in a much bigger font and the BTC price in brackets, much smaller and some lighter shade of gray. All that is on the left-hand side of the "invoice" which concerns itself with the price. The right-hand side concerns itself with the payment process.

I'm not going to make suggestions to you about cooling down and trying another angle just to see what it looks like and wether it might make sense because I fear you might get mad at me.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: greyhawk on January 17, 2013, 08:28:22 PM
Bitcoin/$ rate is exploding. Looks like a lot of bitcoins needed for refunds are missing, huh?
Bullshit.

Please stop.

Yeah, well actually he's right about the price soaring up until about 1 and a half hours ago. It looks like we're rapidly approaching normal levels again however by now.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: repentance on January 17, 2013, 08:28:45 PM
As my daughter in law the lawyer would say - "If the law is on your side, argue law. If the facts are on your side, argue facts.  If neither law nor facts are on your side, just argue".  becoin has apparently chosen option 3.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: cedivad on January 17, 2013, 08:29:12 PM
Bitcoin/$ rate is exploding. Looks like a lot of bitcoins needed for refunds are missing, huh?
Bullshit.

Please stop.

Yeah, well actually he's right about the price soaring up until about 1 and a half hours ago. It looks like we're rapidly approaching normal levels again however by now.
Yes, but that is not BFL buying the BTC needed for refunds.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: smracer on January 17, 2013, 08:29:37 PM
He is obviously trolling.  No one is that stupid.  


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: JWU42 on January 17, 2013, 08:30:55 PM

Take 2


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: davout on January 17, 2013, 08:40:23 PM
Let's invite this Micon guy in this thread and all leave at the same time.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: greyhawk on January 17, 2013, 08:46:43 PM
He wouldn't even notice what with how much he likes to talk.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 08:48:30 PM
On the pic you provided is says the USD price in a much bigger font and the BTC price in brackets, much smaller and some lighter shade of gray. All that is on the left-hand side of the "invoice" which concerns itself with the price. The right-hand side concerns itself with the payment process.
Thanks for suggesting your point of view, molecular. I have never had any special interests in Impressionism (soleil levant), you know, all those shades, colors, forms, brush strokes, emphasis, accurate depiction of light and nuances. I'm afraid my knowledge in this field is quite inferior to yours.

All I know is that all the data in an invoice is equally important independently of color, size or place of the fonts used!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: molecular on January 17, 2013, 08:55:39 PM
Let's invite this Micon guy in this thread and all leave at the same time.

fucking lol!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: molecular on January 17, 2013, 09:01:58 PM
On the pic you provided is says the USD price in a much bigger font and the BTC price in brackets, much smaller and some lighter shade of gray. All that is on the left-hand side of the "invoice" which concerns itself with the price. The right-hand side concerns itself with the payment process.
Thanks for suggesting your point of view, molecular. I have never had any special interests in Impressionism (soleil levant), you know, all those shades, colors, forms, brush strokes, emphasis, accurate depiction of light and nuances. I'm afraid my knowledge in this field is quite inferior to yours.

All I know is that all the data in an invoice is equally important independently of color, size or place of the fonts used!

Well, I can say one thing kind-of in your favor (not siding with you at all though): They should've clearly stated the fact that you were actually selling your BTC and paying in USD when making the transaction.

Only because it's been clear to me from the way bitpay works and other context doesn't mean it's clear to everyone.

It looks to me like you made a mistake (in thinking you would get back BTC) and now the situation is pretty bad for you and you can't admit you made that mistake (maybe even to yourself). Now you're attributing the mistake to someone else quite irrationally.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 09:13:41 PM
They should've clearly stated the fact that you were actually selling your BTC and paying in USD when making the transaction.
They can't! They are not an exchange! Ask davout what does it mean in terms of regulations?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: repentance on January 17, 2013, 09:15:37 PM
Well, I can say one thing kind-of in your favor (not siding with you at all though): They should've clearly stated the fact that you were actually selling your BTC and paying in USD when making the transaction.

Only because it's been clear to me from the way bitpay works and other context doesn't mean it's clear to everyone.

And yet most people understand perfectly well that Amazon prices their goods in USD and that if they use a payment processor (such as Visa or Mastercard) which raises a charge in their local currency at the USD/local currency exchange rate any refunds will also be made at the USD/local currency exchange rate at the time the refund is issued.  Most online vendors do not explicitly state this because most people who use payment processors are well aware of how this works.  

While many sites will allow me to see the AUD equivalent of the USD price (which allows me to compare local and overseas prices easily), the product is still priced in USD and Mastercard pays the vendor in USD even though the transaction is shown in AUD on my account.  It's not rocket science.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: crazyates on January 17, 2013, 09:19:17 PM
They should've clearly stated the fact that you were actually selling your BTC and paying in USD when making the transaction.
They can't! They are not an exchange! Ask davout what does it mean in terms of regulations?
But they're using an exchange at the time of purchase. That should be blatantly obvious!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Littleshop on January 17, 2013, 09:20:55 PM
Legal tender laws in the US = private debt can always be settled in USD.
Of course, they CAN! However, their debt is denominated in bitcoins, not in dollars! I gave them bitcoins, not dollars! They MUST settle this debt AT CURRENT bitcoin/$ rate, not at the rate that was months ago!

I'm fairly new to the bitcoin community and seeing people like this make me fear for its future.

+1


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: davout on January 17, 2013, 09:23:50 PM
They can't! They are not an exchange! Ask davout what does it mean in terms of regulations?
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/52452135/depositphotos_2224829-One-dollar-bill.jpg


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 09:27:32 PM
But they're using an exchange at the time of purchase. That should be blatantly obvious!
BFL through BitPay as an intermediary is using the exchange, not the customer!
BFL have full control how do they setup their BitPay merchant account, when and what % of bitcoins they get and % exchanged against dollars.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: davout on January 17, 2013, 09:29:09 PM
BFL through BitPay as an intermediary is using the exchange, not the customer!
BFL have full control how do they setup their BitPay merchant account, when and what % of bitcoins they get and % exchanged against dollars.
Maybe you should stick with PayPal :D


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: SgtSpike on January 17, 2013, 09:38:23 PM
becoin: Did they promise to do full BTC refunds at any point ?
Do you have to respect the law if haven't promised to respect it?
Still waiting for you to provide any law or courtroom rulings that side with your point of view.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 09:39:10 PM
And yet most people understand perfectly well that Amazon prices their goods in USD and that if they use a payment processor (such as Visa or Mastercard)
Jeeeeeez... How many times should I explain what is the difference to every fuckin idiot?

In cc the conversion is done by the issuing bank. Issuing bank has a contract signed with cc owner to do such currency conversions. They have A LICENSE to do currency conversions. Just after this conversion issuing bank is transferring dollars to the merchant. The TRANSACTION currency is dollars. That is why in case of refund dollars are refunded.

While paying in bitcoins the TRANSACTION currency is bitcoin. Customer transfers bitcoins to the bitcoin address and to the bitcoin amount specified by BFL. If, how much and when BFL converges BTC received into dollars is entirely upon BFL's discretion and what their contract with BitPay is.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Third Way on January 17, 2013, 09:39:25 PM
Using BTC with an Exchange
by BFL_Jody  , 01-17-2013
If I wanted to use BTC Exchange I would have gone to MtGox. If I wanted to buy dollars certainly, I would have done this. But strangely, I wanted to buy an ASIC. At that time BFL seemed a good idea to me. So, I bought an ASIC. Not to BFL's stance... They claim they sold me dollars!

"This note is legal tender, for all debts, public and private". Says so somewhere.


In any case, take them to small claims court if you are indeed so mad. Go ahead, open a case against BFL company, it's owners and shareholders if they have any, and face them in small claims court.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: JWU42 on January 17, 2013, 09:42:10 PM
So much for not feeding the troll  ::)

You just can't fix stupid...


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: davout on January 17, 2013, 09:45:33 PM
Jeeeeeez... How many times should I explain what is the difference to every fuckin idiot?

[...]

While paying in bitcoins the TRANSACTION currency is bitcoin. Customer transfers bitcoins to the bitcoin address and to the bitcoin amount specified by BFL. If, how much and when BFL converges BTC received into dollars is entirely upon BFL's discretion and what their contract with BitPay is.
Bitcoin is not recognized as a currency.
Therefore you never made a payment.
Therefore you are not entitled to a refund.

(oh and thanks for entertaining me while my test suites run)


So much for not feeding the troll  ::)

You just can't fix stupid...
Has it ever occurred to you that people might find entertainment in feeding trolls ?
I know there is really no point in throwing a stick for my labrador to fetch, there is really no productive value in it. Yet I do throw sticks. And I expect them to be fetched, for this has high entertainment value to me.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: SgtSpike on January 17, 2013, 09:47:37 PM
Every response to becoin should now simply be "Take it to a courtroom."


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: davout on January 17, 2013, 09:48:22 PM
Every response to becoin should now simply be "Take it to a courtroom."
I'm sure we can find much funnier.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Third Way on January 17, 2013, 09:48:46 PM
Every response to becoin should now simply be "Take it to a courtroom."

I took your mom to a courtroom.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: repentance on January 17, 2013, 09:50:28 PM
Apparently you don't understand the difference between an exchange and a payment processor.  Mastercard and Visa are not currency exchanges - they are payment processors.  Nonetheless, they frequently take funds from a customer in one currency and pay the merchant in another.  By contrast, exchanges convert the currency for you so that you are able to pay the merchant directly in their preferred currency.

PayPal allows me to fund my account with AUD and then convert those funds to other currencies before paying the merchant.  I then end up with a sub-account which is holds USD in addition to my primary account which holds AUD.  Almost no-one uses this option because PayPal's fees for exchanging one currency to another are brutal compared to what CC companies charge, but if I was to directly pay the merchant in the destination currency then I could get my refund in that same currency and it would be for the exact amount I paid.

And yeah, in a couple of days people will abandon the trollish threads because one way or another Avalon will be the hot topic.

That said, Custom Hardware probably isn't the right forum for a thread about payment issues so maybe a mod could boot it somewhere else.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 09:54:05 PM
"This note is legal tender, for all debts, public and private". Says so somewhere.
Sure. You can repay every debt in the US with a USD bill. But that doesn't mean you can repay a 1000 dollar debt with a 10 dollar bill. Or as dovout said with a 1 dollar bill.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: KWH on January 17, 2013, 09:55:26 PM
Jeeeeeez... How many times should I explain what is the difference to every fuckin idiot?

[...]

While paying in bitcoins the TRANSACTION currency is bitcoin. Customer transfers bitcoins to the bitcoin address and to the bitcoin amount specified by BFL. If, how much and when BFL converges BTC received into dollars is entirely upon BFL's discretion and what their contract with BitPay is.
Bitcoin is not recognized as a currency.
Therefore you never made a payment.
Therefore you are not entitled to a refund.

(oh and thanks for entertaining me while my test suites run)


So much for not feeding the troll  ::)

You just can't fix stupid...
Has it ever occurred to you that people might find entertainment in feeding trolls ?
I know there is really no point in throwing a stick for my labrador to fetch, there is really no productive value in it. Yet I do throw sticks. And I expect them to be fetched, for this has high entertainment value to me.



http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/chappeleRickJamesDirtyUpCouch.gif


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 10:04:31 PM
Apparently you don't understand the difference between an exchange and a payment processor.  Mastercard and Visa are not currency exchanges - they are payment processors.  Nonetheless, they frequently take funds from a customer in one currency and pay the merchant in another.  By contrast, exchanges convert the currency for you so that you are able to pay the merchant directly in their preferred currency.
That's complete BS. You have no idea what you're talking about. MC and Visa do not exchange currencies for every transaction that needs a currency coversion. The issuing bank that issued the cc is doing that.

Quote
When the merchant account holder forwards the transaction for processing, the financial institution adds identifying information to facilitate the transfer of funds. If the credit card purchase is approved, the bank that issued the card electronically transfers funds in the amount of the purchase from the card holder's account to the merchant account processor. The financial institution that holds the merchant account waits for the arrival of these funds, deducts their fee and electronically deposits the balance into the merchant's bank account.



Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: davout on January 17, 2013, 10:05:04 PM

MFW

http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/R/Django-Reinhardt-9454889-1-402.jpg


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: YipYip on January 17, 2013, 10:06:59 PM
And yet most people understand perfectly well that Amazon prices their goods in USD and that if they use a payment processor (such as Visa or Mastercard)
Jeeeeeez... How many times should I explain what is the difference to every fuckin idiot?

In cc the conversion is done by the issuing bank. Issuing bank has a contract signed with cc owner to do such currency conversions. They have A LICENSE to do currency conversions. Just after this conversion issuing bank is transferring dollars to the merchant. The TRANSACTION currency is dollars. That is why in case of refund dollars are refunded.

While paying in bitcoins the TRANSACTION currency is bitcoin. Customer transfers bitcoins to the bitcoin address and to the bitcoin amount specified by BFL. If, how much and when BFL converges BTC received into dollars is entirely upon BFL's discretion and what their contract with BitPay is.

Ah "becoin and his missing $68" so this was your cunning evil plan to start a thread and bitch bitch  and bitch again about (your opinion) missing $68 over a period of 2 months

WOw so totally left field and creative... u really caught me off guard with my perceived expectation of what was to come next in this thrilling saga.

You really seem to have issues with money...why dont u take a seat and tell me about it...comfortable...good..ok let me guess it has something to do with your mother ???

He shoots he scores.....(2 points ca-ching)

There are others on this board who have lost $100's-1000's from the bASIC explosion (me included still waiting) and u r carring on like some massive injustice has been brought against you...now if this guy was involved
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vmpSO2BbYCE/TMLqj3TM8kI/AAAAAAAANBU/QXrbovd4RJM/s1600/hitler_baby.gif

(hes shoots and scores from outside the 3 point line..also bonus points for bringing hitler into the conversation..this guy is on fire!! )

I could understand...but that little chestnut has come & gone 60 years ago

1)Firstly BTC in not a FIAT or standard currency
2) Check the bitpay terms & conditions

I think u fail on all points..but if this is the best you got then go ahead and lose whatever last pieces of respect anybody has for you (except for other like minded indaviduals)

If you can some how link hitler to your problems then i might listen otherwise u are an ASShat who craves attention and wants to play the victim card

 (on the buzzer from the half court line ...3 points)


Its been fun & i look forward to the next installment of "becoin & hitler's love nest" on LifeStyles of the Slightly less Rich & now infamous


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 10:16:02 PM

2) Check the bitpay terms & conditions
Do you think I should have signed a contract with BitPay first before purchasing ASIC in bitcoins? What if a customer pays in bitcoins but doesn't have any idea who is bitpay? Are they rejected by BFL as a customer? That's a bit racist, isn't it?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: tvbcof on January 17, 2013, 10:19:11 PM
BFL through BitPay as an intermediary is using the exchange, not the customer!
BFL have full control how do they setup their BitPay merchant account, when and what % of bitcoins they get and % exchanged against dollars.
Maybe you should stick with PayPal :D

All you have to do to make the point is steal the BTC I have in Instawallet.

Any day now.  Still waiting.  You better make it quick because I just bought something for Bitcoin for the first time ever (hurray!) and I'm waiting for the guy to figure out what software he's going to try to use to accept them. (After looking into things I'm going to suggest he tries Armory I think.)



Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: davout on January 17, 2013, 10:28:01 PM
All you have to do to make the point is steal the BTC I have in Instawallet.

Any day now.  Still waiting.  You better make it quick because I just bought something for Bitcoin for the first time ever (hurray!) and I'm waiting for the guy to figure out what software he's going to try to use to accept them. (After looking into things I'm going to suggest he tries Armory I think.)
I beg your pardon.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: MooC Tals on January 17, 2013, 10:32:40 PM
Seriously I'm amazed at some people unable to understand this.

How did BFL come to the btc price? Did they pick the number out of thin air?

NO

They asked for the appropriate amount of btc to fund the USD amount according to the exchange rate. Now if you want BTC back it has to be in USD amount you paid.

If they only accepted USD you would have had to exchange it to USD and after the refund in USD you would have had to exchange it back to BTC your self.

BFL did not randomly ask for an amount of btc. They took only what was needed to fulfill the dollar amount requested.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: KWH on January 17, 2013, 10:35:05 PM

2) Check the bitpay terms & conditions
Do you think I should have signed a contract with BitPay first before purchasing ASIC in bitcoins? What if a customer pays in bitcoins but doesn't have any idea who is bitpay? Are they rejected by BFL as a customer? That's a bit racist, isn't it?


Take it to Judge Judy.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: YipYip on January 17, 2013, 10:37:17 PM

2) Check the bitpay terms & conditions
Do you think I should have signed a contract with BitPay first before purchasing ASIC in bitcoins? What if a customer pays in bitcoins but doesn't have any idea who is bitpay? Are they rejected by BFL as a customer? That's a bit racist, isn't it?

Victim Card
Now the Racism  Card

Keep going theres not much left at the bottom of the barrel

Get it out of your system...

It must be hard being in a relationship with Hitler so I am here for you

The things he must make u do...oh the humanity

BTW...all i hear for you blah..blah..blah...lol


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 10:39:15 PM
All you have to do to make the point is steal the BTC I have in Instawallet.
Oh, never do that with any service that davout has on his signature. He will never refund your bitcoins in full.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: ElectricMucus on January 17, 2013, 10:40:18 PM
Talk to a lawyer, take the USD refund or leave it


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 10:44:12 PM
Now if you want BTC back it has to be in USD amount you paid.
I have never paid USD to BFL. That is technically impossible to pay USD to the bitcoin address they have specified on their invoice during the checkout process. They wanted me pay EXACT amount in bitcoins to EXACT bitcoin address. I have absolutely no control in what they do after they get my bitcoins. Why is that so fuckin difficult to uderstand?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: YipYip on January 17, 2013, 10:44:47 PM

2) Check the bitpay terms & conditions
Do you think I should have signed a contract with BitPay first before purchasing ASIC in bitcoins? What if a customer pays in bitcoins but doesn't have any idea who is bitpay? Are they rejected by BFL as a customer? That's a bit racist, isn't it?


Take it to Judge Judy.

+1

She will sot it out


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: SgtSpike on January 17, 2013, 10:45:26 PM
Now if you want BTC back it has to be in USD amount you paid.
I have never paid USD to BFL. That is technically impossible to pay USD to the bitcoin address they have specified on their invoice during the checkout process. They wanted me pay EXACT amount in bitcoins to EXACT bitcoin address. I have absolutely no control in what they do after they get my bitcoins. Why is that so fuckin difficult to uderstand?
Take it to a courtroom.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: YipYip on January 17, 2013, 10:47:59 PM
Why is that so fuckin difficult to uderstand?

Its difficult to understand how you still stay in a relationship with Hitler

Sure he can be a tender lover sometimes...but he does not get the inner you does he





Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 10:50:59 PM
take the USD refund or leave it
How would they send me USD refund if they don't know my USD bank account details?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: ElectricMucus on January 17, 2013, 10:53:29 PM
take the USD refund or leave it
How would they send me USD refund if they don't know my USD bank account details?

take a guess. Why don't you take the option of suing bitpay&bfl serious?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: repentance on January 17, 2013, 10:53:57 PM
Seriously I'm amazed at some people unable to understand this.

I think he understands just fine.  He's just hoping that if he makes enough noise BFL will decide it's worth paying him the difference to get rid of him.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: YipYip on January 17, 2013, 10:54:55 PM
take the USD refund or leave it
How would they send me USD refund if they don't know my USD bank account details?

Hitler is sick of listening to your problems so sent them through to JOSH & Jodi

Go speak to him about it...


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: YipYip on January 17, 2013, 10:57:35 PM
Seriously I'm amazed at some people unable to understand this.

I think he understands just fine.  He's just hoping that if he makes enough noise BFL will decide it's worth paying him the difference to get rid of him.

I think u got it...cool


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Unacceptable on January 17, 2013, 11:00:16 PM
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/Spock.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/Retardsoninternet.jpg


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 17, 2013, 11:00:56 PM
He's just hoping that if he makes enough noise BFL will decide it's worth paying him the difference to get rid of him.
No, I don't take bribes.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: ElectricMucus on January 17, 2013, 11:02:26 PM
Seriously I'm amazed at some people unable to understand this.

I think he understands just fine.  He's just hoping that if he makes enough noise BFL will decide it's worth paying him the difference to get rid of him.

Might be really bored perhaps....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Occam%27s_Razor.svg/347px-Occam%27s_Razor.svg.png

no you are right.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: greyhawk on January 17, 2013, 11:50:46 PM
Hi, thread.

I was away for a few hours.

Has becoin videotaped his conversation with a lawyer yet? Is it on the Interwebstube?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: KWH on January 18, 2013, 12:00:49 AM

Judge Judy may find this:

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/h1DB0C098.gif


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Unacceptable on January 18, 2013, 12:52:57 AM
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/Isee.jpg


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: KWH on January 18, 2013, 01:05:34 AM

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/LsqVA.gif


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Bogart on January 18, 2013, 01:11:56 AM
OMFG JFC STFU already, six pages of this garbage, in addition to the pages strewn through the other threads.

I swear, if I were a mod, I would delete every new post concerning this topic.  It's been beat to death and back ten times over.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 18, 2013, 01:24:28 AM
I swear, if I were a mod, I would delete every new post concerning this topic.
If I were a mod I would ban people like you and your buddy clowns that are cluttering this thread with shitty images, so that nobody can read anything useful.

Bitcoin/$ price rise after I have published this thread proves what needs to be proved!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on January 18, 2013, 01:38:50 AM
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02046/Trek_2046557c.jpg
Kirk to Enterprise. What's the current conversion rate for Federation Credits to German Mark?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: nathanrees19 on January 18, 2013, 01:51:53 AM
OMFG JFC STFU already, six pages of this garbage, in addition to the pages strewn through the other threads.

At least we can hope that all dead-horse beating moves to this thread. Then we can simply ignore this thread.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: nathanrees19 on January 18, 2013, 01:52:54 AM
Bitcoin/$ price rise after I have published this thread proves what needs to be proved!

Why do you say that?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: KWH on January 18, 2013, 01:57:58 AM
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02046/Trek_2046557c.jpg
Kirk to Enterprise. What's the current conversion rate for Federation Credits to German Mark?


Hogan: We've received a transmission from the future from someone named Kirk about some internet douche being, well a douche. He asks us what we would do.
Schultz: What do you mean, from the future and what's an internet? Hells Bells on a ice cream stick, did you say douche???  Kommandant Klink will NOT be happy! I know nuuuuuuuuthinzs!

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/hogans-heroes_o_GIFSoupcom.gif


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: witherworth on January 18, 2013, 04:08:12 AM
BFL's stance:
BFL' stance is different from MY stance. I'm right. They are wrong.

+1

You should tell them to release their ASICs right now. They'll have to comply in order to none wrong.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Unacceptable on January 18, 2013, 04:55:04 AM
I swear, if I were a mod, I would delete every new post concerning this topic.
If I were a mod I would ban people like you and your buddy clowns that are cluttering this thread with shitty images, so that nobody can read anything useful.

Bitcoin/$ price rise after I have published this thread proves what needs to be proved!

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/douchestun.jpg


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Unacceptable on January 18, 2013, 05:04:09 AM
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/Schultzmarket.jpg


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: KWH on January 18, 2013, 05:22:18 AM
I swear, if I were a mod, I would delete every new post concerning this topic.
If I were a mod I would ban people like you and your buddy clowns that are cluttering this thread with shitty images, so that nobody can read anything useful.

Bitcoin/$ price rise after I have published this thread proves what needs to be proved!

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/douchestun.jpg

Take THAT ya douche!
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/x1pvbu1psflfmcda3ttgmx4gqcfl7ujpg.gif


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Unacceptable on January 18, 2013, 07:05:37 AM
I swear, if I were a mod, I would delete every new post concerning this topic.
If I were a mod I would ban people like you and your buddy clowns that are cluttering this thread with shitty images, so that nobody can read anything useful.

Bitcoin/$ price rise after I have published this thread proves what needs to be proved!

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/douchestun.jpg

Take THAT ya douche!
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/x1pvbu1psflfmcda3ttgmx4gqcfl7ujpg.gif

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/Boldlygo.jpg


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: mezzomix on January 18, 2013, 07:27:13 AM
OK, let me summarize: I open a business in a country that is printing money like crazy, force my customers to pay in BTC as the only payment method and fail to deliver. Great.

Hello everybody,

I've developed a low power high performance mining rig. You get 100GH/s with only 50W of power. The shipment will start on Feb 4. 2013. Full refund in ARS guaranteed if I fail to deliver within the next 3 months. As my business is in argentina the price is 5000 ARS. At the moment I will only accept payments in BTC at the spot price. Pre-orders are welcome. First in the queue - first served!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 18, 2013, 08:19:07 AM
OK, let me summarize: I open a business in a country that is printing money like crazy, force my customers to pay in BTC as the only payment method and fail to deliver. Great.
Thanks for your support, mezzomix. I'm also astonished by the sheer stupidity of so many people on the these forums. There isn't much I can do! Sheep deserve their destiny.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: poon-TANG on January 18, 2013, 08:40:32 AM
I can't believe how stupid some people are. How many times does it have to be explained to you? You paid int BTC it was converted into USD. So stop being so fucking stupid


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 18, 2013, 08:45:29 AM
You paid int BTC it was converted into USD.
I paid BTC. Who converted them into $?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Grinder on January 18, 2013, 09:48:42 AM
You paid int BTC it was converted into USD.
I paid BTC. Who converted them into $?
That's been explained in great detail on the first page of this thread.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Unacceptable on January 18, 2013, 09:49:40 AM
You paid int BTC it was converted into USD.
I paid BTC. Who converted them into $?

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/DOUBLEFACEPALM.jpg


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: tbcoin on January 18, 2013, 10:12:39 AM
http://www.365discoveries.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/image.png


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: crazy_rabbit on January 18, 2013, 10:59:58 AM
Legal tender laws in the US = private debt can always be settled in USD.
Of course, they CAN! However, their debt is denominated in bitcoins, not in dollars! I gave them bitcoins, not dollars! They MUST settle this debt AT CURRENT bitcoin/$ rate, not at the rate that was months ago!

Unfortunately no, you're wrong, and there is a good reason why you're wrong.
1) the law says otherwise, they can always pay you back in USD. It's public tender for ALL debts, public and private.
2) If you paid in cows and the cows died, they obviously couldn't pay you back with the same cows, and any replacement cows would be subjective as to if they were exactly equivalent in all their 'cowness'. So instead they have to pay you back in what the cows were worth at the time of the transaction in USD. Since no one could have known at the time of the transaction the value of a cow today, you can't ask for the value of the cow today, only of the value of the cow then, since that is when the value was known by all parties.

Sorry you can't be ballin' with your BTC at today's prices but that's how the cookie crumbles. If you wanted to be safe from dramatic exchange rate flux, you should have paid directly in USD. Being that USD to USD is worth the same today as it was months ago.

Better luck next time.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 18, 2013, 11:49:18 AM
1) the law says otherwise,
Really? Where? Where does the law say that you can repay a 1000 dollar debt with a 10 dollar bill?


1)2) If you paid in cows and the cows died, they obviously couldn't pay you back with the same cows, and any replacement cows would be subjective as to if they were exactly equivalent in all their 'cowness'.
Of course! The replacement cows are subjective as to the CURRENT cow/$ rate, not subjective to the THEN cow/$ when debt was made. If you can't see the difference, nobody can help you because you just don't want to see it.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: davout on January 18, 2013, 11:55:32 AM
1) the law says otherwise,
Really? Where? Where does the law say that you can repay a 1000 dollar debt with a 10 dollar bill?
http://static4.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Can+t+tell+if+Maximum+Trolling+_0ff91dcb46c46916a02dccfd94784ac9.gif


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: molecular on January 18, 2013, 11:56:12 AM
boy am I glad I switched to using the watchlist... now I can just unwatch crap.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 18, 2013, 11:57:04 AM
You paid int BTC it was converted into USD.
I paid BTC. Who converted them into $?
That's been explained in great detail on the first page of this thread.

No, it was not explained. Unless what you say is that you can exchange your customer money to other currencies without being a licensed and regulated currency exchange?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: davout on January 18, 2013, 12:04:08 PM
No, it was not explained. Unless what you say is that you can exchange your customer money to other currencies without being a licensed and regulated currency exchange?
http://static.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/1323391257329_498020.png


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: crazy_rabbit on January 18, 2013, 12:13:33 PM
1) the law says otherwise,
Really? Where? Where does the law say that you can repay a 1000 dollar debt with a 10 dollar bill?

It's written on every bill ever printed.
Exhibit a) http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/71008/71008,1223892097,2/stock-photo--dollar-bill-detail-of-this-note-is-legal-tender-for-all-debts-public-and-private-18813409.jpg
Quote
Where does the law say that you can repay a 1000 dollar debt with a 10 dollar bill?
It doesn't. It only says you can repay any debt (in your case BTC) using USD. Which is exactly your situation. I know you feel hurt because your BTC is worth more now then it was in the past, but that's just how it is. If your BTC was worth less now, would you be so upset? They would still have to refund you at the rate it was at the time of the transaction. Keep in mind- USD is legal tender and BTC is not recognized by any government as legal tender. If it WERE recognized as legal tender the situation would be different, but it's not, so it's as good a trading cows.

1)2) If you paid in cows and the cows died, they obviously couldn't pay you back with the same cows, and any replacement cows would be subjective as to if they were exactly equivalent in all their 'cowness'.
Of course! The replacement cows are subjective as to the CURRENT cow/$ rate, not subjective to the THEN cow/$ when debt was made. If you can't see the difference, nobody can help you because you just don't want to see it.

Perhaps the cow example wasn't such a good one. You're looking at it like a replacement of value, while i intended the cow to substitute as currency in and of itself. In this situation the debt was not actually denominated in cows, it was denominated in USD. They were accepting COWS (by cows I mean BTC) at the current market rate of cow/btc. However this did not make the debt denominated in cows- they were only accepting the value of the cow at current prices.

Get it?

You think that you were denominating the debt in BTC because that is what you paid in. However that's not true, nor enforceable, you were entering the debt denominated as USD but they were accepting BTC in exchange. Perhaps you could have been more clearly explained this at the start, but unfortunately this is the case now. You would be better off perhaps keeping the pre-order and just waiting.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: 2weiX on January 18, 2013, 12:15:53 PM
BFL was *allowing you* to pay your invoice for USD-denominated products with the then-equivalent amount of BTC.

As the products were denominated in USD, the refunded amount is the value of the product in now-equivalent amounts of BTC.

Is that so hard to understand?




(it's also why smart people paid with paypal/wire).


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: crazy_rabbit on January 18, 2013, 12:17:47 PM
You paid int BTC it was converted into USD.
I paid BTC. Who converted them into $?
That's been explained in great detail on the first page of this thread.

No, it was not explained. Unless what you say is that you can exchange your customer money to other currencies without being a licensed and regulated currency exchange?

Furthermore, if you paid BTC using Bitpay then what you did was actually give BTC to a 3rd party company, who in turn gave a certain amount of USD to BFL. BFL always worked in USD.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: tbcoin on January 18, 2013, 12:20:20 PM
Really? 8 pages for this?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 18, 2013, 12:21:40 PM
1) the law says otherwise,
Really? Where? Where does the law say that you can repay a 1000 dollar debt with a 10 dollar bill?

It's written on every bill ever printed.
So, on every dollar bill is written that you can repay whatever your debt is with that bill? No way!
Go ask your mom if you don't trust me?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 18, 2013, 12:24:13 PM
it's also why smart people paid with paypal/wire.
Smart people pay with credit cards!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=136615.0


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 18, 2013, 12:27:25 PM
Furthermore, if you paid BTC using Bitpay
I don't use BitPay. BFL is using BitPay. I don't have any contract with BitPay. BFL has. BitPay is buying and selling BFL's bitcoins!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: nathanrees19 on January 18, 2013, 12:28:09 PM
Really? Where? Where does the law say that you can repay a 1000 dollar debt with a 10 dollar bill?

Lol. That's dollars and dollars.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: nathanrees19 on January 18, 2013, 12:31:51 PM
I don't use BitPay.

You'll find that the address you sent coins to was associated with a private key held by BitPay, no?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 18, 2013, 12:35:26 PM
Really? Where? Where does the law say that you can repay a 1000 dollar debt with a 10 dollar bill?

Lol. That's dollars and dollars.
LOL. Only fools repay their 1000 dollar debt with 100x10 dollar bills. Clever guys like you will repay their 1000 debt with a single 10 bill? Posting as proof the text on this 10 dollar bill... Why don't you try to convince your bank about your rights?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 18, 2013, 12:37:44 PM
You'll find that the address you sent coins to was associated with a private key held by BitPay, no?
Why should I care? I pay bitcoins to the address where BFL wants me to pay on their invoice.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: crazy_rabbit on January 18, 2013, 12:38:43 PM
Furthermore, if you paid BTC using Bitpay
I don't use BitPay. BFL is using BitPay. I don't have any contract with BitPay. BFL has. BitPay is buying and selling BFL's bitcoins!

Actually- you sent BTC to bitpay, so yeah, you're using Bitpay. You gave Bitpay money, so yeah you contracted them to convert it to USD. You didn't read the fine print? Not anyones fault but your own. Besides, it's not so much money, consider yourself lucky you learned your lesson now.

Can a mod please lock this thread? It's been enough stupidity.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: davout on January 18, 2013, 12:42:37 PM
LOL. Only fools repay their 1000 dollar debt with 100x10 dollar bills. Clever guys like you will repay their 1000 debt with a single 10 bill? Posting as proof the text on this 10 dollar bill... Why don't you try to convince your bank about your rights?
It actually makes sense (http://goo.gl/lZTh)


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: crazy_rabbit on January 18, 2013, 12:44:00 PM
LOL. Only fools repay their 1000 dollar debt with 100x10 dollar bills. Clever guys like you will repay their 1000 debt with a single 10 bill? Posting as proof the text on this 10 dollar bill... Why don't you try to convince your bank about your rights?
It actually makes sense (http://goo.gl/lZTh)

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 18, 2013, 12:45:11 PM
You gave Bitpay money
I gave BFL money and acted upon their instruction. I don't care what is the address they wanted me pay to. That is something that BFL decides. They decided they want their bitcoins sent to BitPay. That's what I did.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: mezzomix on January 18, 2013, 12:46:49 PM
To make it short: Don't pay with BTC!

Wow my business idea is great: Make money with a full refund strategy and at the same time make your victims^W customers happy.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: nathanrees19 on January 18, 2013, 12:47:57 PM
Really? Where? Where does the law say that you can repay a 1000 dollar debt with a 10 dollar bill?

Lol. That's dollars and dollars.
LOL. Only fools repay their 1000 dollar debt with 100x10 dollar bills. Clever guys like you will repay their 1000 debt with a single 10 bill? Posting as proof the text on this 10 dollar bill... Why don't you try to convince your bank about your rights?

I'm not sure what your point is...usually there is a limit to how much in coins can be considered legal tender, but banks will take pretty much any quantity of anything.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 18, 2013, 12:52:42 PM
it's also why smart people paid with paypal/wire.
Actually, to pay with paypal you have to be a paypal customer. To pay with bitpay you don't have to be a bitpay customer. This, of course, is because you pay in bitcoins, not in $!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: nathanrees19 on January 18, 2013, 12:56:42 PM
it's also why smart people paid with paypal/wire.
Actually, to pay with paypal you have to be a paypal customer. To pay with bitpay you don't have to be a bitpay customer. This, of course, is because you pay in bitcoins, not in $!

Quote
For new buyers, signing up for a PayPal account is now optional.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: greyhawk on January 18, 2013, 12:58:15 PM
You'll find that the address you sent coins to was associated with a private key held by BitPay, no?
Why should I care? I pay bitcoins to the address where BFL wants me to pay on their invoice.

No you don't. You pay them where BITPAY wants you to pay them.

You pay Bitpays invoice for the service YOU are contracting them for, in this case
sending BFL some dollars for your order.

Notice the URL?


http://i.imgur.com/BB5S0.png


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 18, 2013, 01:02:51 PM
For new buyers, signing up for a PayPal account is now optional.
[/quote]
Yes, sure. For those that are using paypal as a credit card processor to pay with their credit cards. Go, tell bitpay to start accepting credit cards!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 18, 2013, 01:04:18 PM
I'm not sure what your point is...
How could you? You need to have brains.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: davout on January 18, 2013, 01:08:01 PM
How could you? You need to have brains.
Actually it looks like you're doing pretty well with just a spine.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: nathanrees19 on January 18, 2013, 01:09:18 PM
Yes, sure. For those that are using paypal as a credit card processor to pay with their credit cards. Go, tell bitpay to start accepting credit cards!

Look at the URL in the image above. They use BitPay as a BTC processor to pay with BTC, by sending you to the BitPay site. You interact directly with BitPay. BitPay handles the conversions etc in a similar way to PayPal.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 18, 2013, 01:09:53 PM
Notice the URL?
So what? If you make a bank wire, where do you send money? To the company or to the bank that is running their bank account?

What a bunch of idiots I'm educating...  :D


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: nathanrees19 on January 18, 2013, 01:14:11 PM

When the URL says "BitPay", you're on the BitPay site. You're trusting BitPay with your BTC.

Should I try shorter sentences?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: greyhawk on January 18, 2013, 01:15:24 PM
Notice the URL?
So what? If you make a bank wire, where do you send money? To the company or to the bank that is running their bank account?

What a bunch of idiots I'm educating...  :D

If I make a bank wire I don't send money anywhere. I contract a payment processor (which might be my bank but could also be sofort.com) to send money.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: crazy_rabbit on January 18, 2013, 01:18:11 PM
Dude, nothing you say will make your BTC come back and no one is taking your side. So go have a good cry and get on with your life.  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 18, 2013, 01:20:33 PM
When the URL says "BitPay", you're on the BitPay site. You're trusting BitPay with your BTC.
Yeah, when the bank account says "Bank-ABC-Swift" I'm not sending money to the company but to the Bank that is running company's bank account?!

Why don't you read something or consult people that you trust and are more educated and experienced by you? You'll help yourself a lot!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: nathanrees19 on January 18, 2013, 01:31:18 PM
When the URL says "BitPay", you're on the BitPay site. You're trusting BitPay with your BTC.
Yeah, when the bank account says "Bank-ABC-Swift" I'm not sending money to the company but to the Bank that is running company's bank account?!

Yes. You tell your bank to send money to their bank. Their bank adds money to their account.

You need cash or Bitcoin to give money directly to them. To give them Bitcoins, they need to give you an address they own. Instead, you gave Bitcoins to BitPay since they don't accept Bitcoin directly.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: KWH on January 18, 2013, 01:32:06 PM
Really? Where? Where does the law say that you can repay a 1000 dollar debt with a 10 dollar bill?

Lol. That's dollars and dollars.
LOL. Only fools repay their 1000 dollar debt with 100x10 dollar bills. Clever guys like you will repay their 1000 debt with a single 10 bill? Posting as proof the text on this 10 dollar bill... Why don't you try to convince your bank about your rights?

Only fools (you) throw tantrums over nothing. You are the new poster child for abortion. Please have yourself neutered so the world (and poor offspring) will be spared from your damaged genes.
Meanwhile, shall we dance, little butt hurt troll?
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/0087.gif http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/tumblr_m667uzh49T1ros50go1_400.gif


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: KWH on January 18, 2013, 01:35:37 PM
Really? 8 pages for this?

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/are-you-not-entertained.gif


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: KWH on January 18, 2013, 01:44:59 PM
When the URL says "BitPay", you're on the BitPay site. You're trusting BitPay with your BTC.
Yeah, when the bank account says "Bank-ABC-Swift" I'm not sending money to the company but to the Bank that is running company's bank account?!

Why don't you read something or consult people that you trust and are more educated and experienced by you? You'll help yourself a lot!

I suggest you hold your breath until you pass out. http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/aFu_stScaredDrPhlox.gif MAYBE someone will call a Waaaambulance for you. http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/l_794aa8d3fcc343f994a814981bd415f6w.gif
You trying to be a funny troll but it isn't working. http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/TrollfaceSteamboatWillie_27d057_3082863.gif
Meanwhile, we all laugh at your lack of education. http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/trekfunny.gif
Funny troll only thinks he's funny. http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/H8clR.gif
And back in reality, we just want to slap some sense into you. http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/Kopie20van20startrek100.gif


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: nandika on January 18, 2013, 01:47:43 PM
how could be someone so so dumb?

i'm sure you would not argue if the exchange rate was less than when you bought, and you'd get back more coins...

If you buy 100 kg carrots (500 pieces), and as time passes later the technology gets better, the carrots grow larger due to gene therapy so 100kg will only be 300 pieces did you get ripped off or you got the same weight of carrots?? Or if the weather was not kind and the carrots are smaller and 100kg is 700 pieces you got more for your money??? of course not..

If you pay 10 BTC to an exchange for $100 liberty reserve exchange, and you decide a month later you don't want to use the LR you bought, and tell the exchange to refund what do you think you will get back if the BTC is worth 15 that time?? The same amount of BTC's?? who would cover up the losses and why the heck would you get a bigger amount?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: SgtSpike on January 18, 2013, 04:27:17 PM
Becoin, does the fact that NO ONE HERE and NO ONE IN A COURT OF LAW agrees with you not mean anything to you?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: crazyates on January 18, 2013, 05:19:29 PM
I suggest you hold your breath until you pass out. http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/aFu_stScaredDrPhlox.gif
Meanwhile, we all laugh at your lack of education. http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/trekfunny.gif
And back in reality, we just want to slap some sense into you. http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/Kopie20van20startrek100.gif
Someone really likes the ST gifs. ;)


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on January 18, 2013, 05:47:00 PM
Page 10.

I can believe this is still being discussed.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: KWH on January 18, 2013, 05:52:25 PM
Page 10.

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/1625230_o.gif

Are you not entertained?


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 18, 2013, 07:58:21 PM
Bark!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Unacceptable on January 18, 2013, 11:33:30 PM
http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/infectedscrew/Star%20Trek/trek.gif


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: Unacceptable on January 18, 2013, 11:38:52 PM
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/MoarBTC.jpg


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: KWH on January 18, 2013, 11:49:25 PM

The Search for Trolls.


http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/Enterprise-08-june.gif


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: Unacceptable on January 19, 2013, 12:34:09 AM
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/DataRetard.jpg


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: gmaxwell on January 19, 2013, 12:34:32 AM
I'm getting a lot of complaints that people though the subject meant the BFL wasn't honoring refunds, and people are irritated that they're getting worked up before discovering that becoin just wanted BFL refunds to act as a hedge against bitcoin's exchange rate relative to the dollar changing.... so I've changed the thread's subject.


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: KWH on January 19, 2013, 12:36:30 AM
I'm getting a lot of complaints that people though the subject meant the BFL wasn't honoring refunds, and people are irritated that they're getting worked up before discovering that becoin just wanted BFL refunds to act as a hedge against bitcoin's exchange rate relative to the dollar changing.... so I've changed the thread's subject.

Excellent!

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/tumblr_liuiatHQvN1qegy8do1_500.gif


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: SgtSpike on January 19, 2013, 12:37:29 AM
I'm getting a lot of complaints that people though the subject meant the BFL wasn't honoring refunds, and people are irritated that they're getting worked up before discovering that becoin just wanted BFL refunds to act as a hedge against bitcoin's exchange rate relative to the dollar changing.... so I've changed the thread's subject.
Winning!


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: Unacceptable on January 19, 2013, 12:42:54 AM
Too funny !!!!!!!!!!! A moderator steps in & changes the title of his thread/rant & I bet he still won't get it  ::)

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/SavvyMate.jpg


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: KWH on January 19, 2013, 12:52:05 AM
Too funny !!!!!!!!!!! A moderator steps in & changes the title of his thread/rant & I bet he still won't get it  ::)

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/SavvyMate.jpg

I offer this consolation prize.

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/43-leg-lamp.jpg


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: becoin on January 19, 2013, 08:25:51 AM
I'm getting a lot of complaints that people though the subject meant the BFL wasn't honoring refunds, and people are irritated that they're getting worked up before discovering that becoin just wanted BFL refunds to act as a hedge against bitcoin's exchange rate relative to the dollar changing.... so I've changed the thread's subject.
gmaxwell, you do not deserve to be a moderator in this forum.
What you've done is a blatant violation of every code of ethics for forum moderation!

I'm not surprised that the quality of this forum is degrading very fast.

becoin just wanted BFL refunds to act as a hedge against bitcoin's exchange rate relative to the dollar changing....
This is non-sense. Did BFL sell me bitcoins to purchase ASIC? No. I've bought those bitcoins many months before they were sent to BFL! Do you know what is the meaning of currency hedge?


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: Unacceptable on January 19, 2013, 08:33:44 AM
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/Beback.jpg


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: greyhawk on January 19, 2013, 09:12:53 AM

What you've done is a blatant violation of every code of ethics for forum moderation!

No, it's not. He corrected a blatantly wrong and sue-worthy thread title into something objectively correct in order to protect both the forum (from lawyers) and its users (from misinformation). His action is in fact one of only two correct moves a moderator of any moderately sized board can and should take in this circumstance (the other is deletion/removal of the offending thread).


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: darkmule on January 19, 2013, 09:23:36 AM
gmaxwell, you do not deserve to be a moderator in this forum.
What you've done is a blatant violation of every code of ethics for forum moderation!

You're just pretty much batting .000 on everything, aren't you?


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: becoin on January 19, 2013, 10:06:45 AM
He corrected a blatantly wrong and sue-worthy thread title
So, he sided with a scam! Sweet. And you say he is protecting the forum?!


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: ElectricMucus on January 19, 2013, 10:11:55 AM
He corrected a blatantly wrong and sue-worthy thread title
So, he sided with a scam! Sweet. And you say he is protecting the forum?!

So you think you were scammed?

What part of "Sue them." do you not comprehend?
Oh right, you don't sue them because, Bitcoin.


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: Unacceptable on January 19, 2013, 10:12:51 AM
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/Cantwin.jpg

Epic fail thread though,congrats  8)


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: DobZombie on January 19, 2013, 11:14:25 AM

So you think you were scammed?


That awkward moment when ElectricMucus even thinks your scam accusation is bullshit.

ALSO

http://global3.memecdn.com/The-awkward-moment-when-you-realize-that-youre-wrong_c_94609.jpg


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: John (John K.) on January 19, 2013, 11:23:05 AM
I'm getting a lot of complaints that people though the subject meant the BFL wasn't honoring refunds, and people are irritated that they're getting worked up before discovering that becoin just wanted BFL refunds to act as a hedge against bitcoin's exchange rate relative to the dollar changing.... so I've changed the thread's subject.
gmaxwell, you do not deserve to be a moderator in this forum.
What you've done is a blatant violation of every code of ethics for forum moderation!

I'm not surprised that the quality of this forum is degrading very fast.

becoin just wanted BFL refunds to act as a hedge against bitcoin's exchange rate relative to the dollar changing....
This is non-sense. Did BFL sell me bitcoins to purchase ASIC? No. I've bought those bitcoins many months before they were sent to BFL! Do you know what is the meaning of currency hedge?
You know, I was planning to either move this to Off-Topic or trash this trollish thread too. I see that gmaxwell went the ingenious route now.  :D


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: julz on January 19, 2013, 11:27:31 AM
Epic thread of attempts to spark comprehension in the pig-headedly wrong is unwinnable - yet so full of win!

Sadly - I'm adding Becoin to my (very short) ignore list.  The unfortunate thing about people who are impervious to reason, is that earnest efforts to help them come to terms with their lack of comprehension will usually just come across as insults and attacks.  

oh who am I kidding.. insults and attacks are sometimes earned. .. I'm calling it.  OP is just *stupid*!  Move along folks.


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: becoin on January 19, 2013, 11:33:49 AM
The unfortunate thing about people who are impervious to reason, is that earnest efforts to help them come to terms with their lack of comprehension will usually just come across as insults and attacks.
You are soooooo rght!

Mahatma Gandhi - "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win."


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: gmaxwell on January 19, 2013, 11:50:20 AM
gmaxwell, you do not deserve to be a moderator in this forum.
What you've done is a blatant violation of every code of ethics for forum moderation!
It is reasonable and customary to replace misleading thread titles.

Quote
becoin just wanted BFL refunds to act as a hedge against bitcoin's exchange rate relative to the dollar changing....
This is non-sense. Did BFL sell me bitcoins to purchase ASIC? No. I've bought those bitcoins many months before they were sent to BFL! Do you know what is the meaning of currency hedge?
People gave BFL coinó if the value of the coin went down (potentially to zero) you would still be demanding to receive valuable mining hardware. If the value of coin went up (as it had) you seem to expect to be able to demand a refund at the new market rate (and then be presumably able to turn around and make a new order with fewer coins).  That would be a pretty awesome hedge if they'd let you make it.


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: becoin on January 19, 2013, 11:55:07 AM
People gave BFL coinó if the value of the coin went down (potentially to zero) you would still be demanding to receive valuable mining hardware.
There is a major contradiction in your statement. If the value of the bitcoin went down to zero then value of the "valuable mining hardware" will be zero as well.


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: KWH on January 19, 2013, 01:15:15 PM
People gave BFL coinó if the value of the coin went down (potentially to zero) you would still be demanding to receive valuable mining hardware.
There is a major contradiction in your statement. If the value of the bitcoin went down to zero then value of the "valuable mining hardware" will be zero as well.

Judge Judy wants a word with you.


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on January 19, 2013, 02:57:51 PM
People gave BFL coinó if the value of the coin went down (potentially to zero) you would still be demanding to receive valuable mining hardware.
There is a major contradiction in your statement. If the value of the bitcoin went down to zero then value of the "valuable mining hardware" will be zero as well.

Judge Judy wants a word with you.

Wrong judge for this case:

http://bossip.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/simon-cowell-sticks-tongue-out.jpg?w=490&h=360


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: darkmule on January 19, 2013, 05:27:13 PM
Mahatma Gandhi - "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win."

First off, it's a fake quote Gandhi never said.

Second, what's more appropriate in your case is Bozo the Clown.  "First, they laugh at you.  Then, they laugh at you some more.  Then they keep laughing.  Because you're stupid."


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: szuetam on January 19, 2013, 05:40:26 PM
You can get a $ refund, correct?
I guess I can get both US dollars and Zimbabwean dollars if I want to?
But people didn't pay in $. They paid in bitcoins and want bitcoin refunds.

If they do that they should buy an options for buying bitcoins as an insurance like serious companies do, but 1st is it possible with bitcoins, and if it is, how expensive, and are they so serious company?



Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: crazy_rabbit on January 19, 2013, 05:52:07 PM
People gave BFL coinó if the value of the coin went down (potentially to zero) you would still be demanding to receive valuable mining hardware.
There is a major contradiction in your statement. If the value of the bitcoin went down to zero then value of the "valuable mining hardware" will be zero as well.

So if you buy a factory that makes cheese, and you pay for it with cheese, and the value of cheese goes to zero, the value of your cheese factory is zero as well?


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: SgtSpike on January 19, 2013, 05:52:26 PM

What you've done is a blatant violation of every code of ethics for forum moderation!

No, it's not. He corrected a blatantly wrong and sue-worthy thread title into something objectively correct in order to protect both the forum (from lawyers) and its users (from misinformation). His action is in fact one of only two correct moves a moderator of any moderately sized board can and should take in this circumstance (the other is deletion/removal of the offending thread).
To be fair, hosts/owners of forums are 100% protected from lawsuit of libel/slander when said libel/slander is made by users of the forum.  Website admins cannot be held liable for user-posted content, UNLESS it is court-ordered that they take it down and they do not comply.

At least, that is the law how I understand it.  :)


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: poon-TANG on January 19, 2013, 06:38:33 PM
I can't believe this moron is still arguing his point even after a mod changed the title of the thread.


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: fernarios on January 19, 2013, 07:05:07 PM
c'mon guys just leave this stupid thread die... if you don't get it, it is just a spam/troll thread.


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: KWH on January 19, 2013, 08:21:06 PM
c'mon guys just leave this stupid thread die... if you don't get it, it is just a spam/troll thread.

Oh, we get it. Since the dank threads have been sub par these days, this is my entertainment........for this week at least.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 19, 2013, 09:22:03 PM
If they do that they should buy an options for buying bitcoins as an insurance like serious companies do, but 1st is it possible with bitcoins, and if it is, how expensive, and are they so serious company?
It is simple. If you can't afford and you can't manage bitcoin exchange rate risk you should not accept bitcoin payments.

Bitcoin is amazing. Bitcoin payments unmistakably expose every merchant scam. You can't treat people as customers when accepting their bitcoin payments and later treat them as investors when refunding their purchases! The very nature of bitcoin won't allow shady commercial practices.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: KWH on January 19, 2013, 09:33:51 PM
If they do that they should buy an options for buying bitcoins as an insurance like serious companies do, but 1st is it possible with bitcoins, and if it is, how expensive, and are they so serious company?
It is simple. If you can't afford and you can't manage bitcoin exchange rate risk you should not accept bitcoin payments.

Bitcoin is amazing. Bitcoin payments unmistakably expose every merchant scam. You can't treat people as customers when accepting their bitcoin payments and later treat them as investors when refunding their purchases! The very nature of bitcoin won't allow shady commercial practices.

It IS simple too bad you're not bright enough to figure it out.


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: Unacceptable on January 19, 2013, 09:35:05 PM
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/BFLrobbedme.jpg


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: KWH on January 19, 2013, 09:40:21 PM


What do you mean "I was robbed?"

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/tumblr_lpn7buV7981qgr6iq.gif


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: Unacceptable on January 20, 2013, 07:06:21 AM

Gotta get one more meme in  :D

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/Gimmecoins.jpg


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: 2weiX on January 20, 2013, 08:59:21 AM
This thread, aside from all the asshattery,
 provides valuable education regarding the
old discussion of whether BTC are a means
to store value vs a means to move value.


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: crazy_rabbit on January 20, 2013, 01:36:19 PM
I can't believe this moron is still arguing his point even after a mod changed the title of the thread.
+1


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: klondike_bar on January 20, 2013, 09:32:05 PM
If they do that they should buy an options for buying bitcoins as an insurance like serious companies do, but 1st is it possible with bitcoins, and if it is, how expensive, and are they so serious company?
It is simple. If you can't afford and you can't manage bitcoin exchange rate risk you should not accept bitcoin payments.

Bitcoin is amazing. Bitcoin payments unmistakably expose every merchant scam. You can't treat people as customers when accepting their bitcoin payments and later treat them as investors when refunding their purchases! The very nature of bitcoin won't allow shady commercial practices.

http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/themes/cruz/scripts/timthumb.php?src=http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/slider-1.png&w=960&h=360&zc=1&q=100

Have you seen them advertise in BTC prices ANYWHERE? (i mean advertise, not tell you what the exchange rate is at time of purchase)

This debate is just stupid. If you wanted to return a $9.99 shirt to walmart, and the value of the USD had dropped 1% in the prior week, would you therefore demand they pay you back $10.09 (101%) of your purchase price? Get real.


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: becoin on January 20, 2013, 10:05:45 PM
Have you seen them advertise in BTC prices ANYWHERE? (i mean advertise, not tell you what the exchange rate is at time of purchase)
Why don't BFL fan boys read before they post 100 times same stupid argument? It has been answered and proof shown 100 times!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137026.msg1460393#msg1460393


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: klondike_bar on January 20, 2013, 11:28:02 PM
Have you seen them advertise in BTC prices ANYWHERE? (i mean advertise, not tell you what the exchange rate is at time of purchase)
Why don't BFL fan boys read before they post 100 times same stupid argument? It has been answered and proof shown 100 times!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137026.msg1460393#msg1460393
Why do people not get this? It was NOT priced in bitcoins!!! Here's an example of what did NOT happen...
You are wrong!!!
It WAS and still IS priced in bitcoins as well. I don't give wishful examples. I give proof!

http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www.cgi/http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www.cgi/http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/8656/bflk.jpg

That is not pricing in Bitcoins.  That is asking for payment in Bitcoins in an amount equivalent to the USD pricing.

Im out of here, you're just straight trolling at this point


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: KWH on January 21, 2013, 12:07:31 AM
Have you seen them advertise in BTC prices ANYWHERE? (i mean advertise, not tell you what the exchange rate is at time of purchase)
Why doesn't becoin read before he posts 100 times the same stupid, idiotic argument? Its troll argument has been answered and  LACK of proof shown 100 times!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137026.msg1460393#msg1460393

FTFY


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: Third Way on January 21, 2013, 01:04:37 AM
Did Becoin go to court yet?  Sue them, nobody likes BFL. You'll be a hero here. In small claims court you don't have a need for a lawyer, not even BFL have lawyers, they have to send an employee (although that employee might also be an attorney) but come on, do it asshole!


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: Frizz23 on January 21, 2013, 08:17:06 AM
Did Becoin go to court yet?  Sue them, nobody likes BFL. You'll be a hero here. In small claims court you don't have a need for a lawyer, not even BFL have lawyers, they have to send an employee (although that employee might also be an attorney) but come on, do it asshole!

Becoin might even have a chance to win this one. Just imagine said employee is someone named Josh and his first statement will be: "Your honor,  I can't understand you over your fucking stupidity ...".  ;D


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: ElectricMucus on January 21, 2013, 08:24:27 AM
Did Becoin go to court yet?  Sue them, nobody likes BFL. You'll be a hero here. In small claims court you don't have a need for a lawyer, not even BFL have lawyers, they have to send an employee (although that employee might also be an attorney) but come on, do it asshole!

Becoin might even have a chance to win this one. Just imagine said employee is someone named Josh and his first statement will be: "Your honor,  I can't understand you over your fucking stupidity ...".  ;D

omg I actually LOLed on that one.  :D


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: phedny on January 21, 2013, 10:25:02 AM
When I go to Amazon.com and I order stuff, their prices are in USD. Now, since I live in the EU and Amazon.com is a nice company, they give me the option to pay in EUR instead of USD. However, the deal we made has always been in USD, so when I ask for a refund, the amount I get in EUR most probably is not the same. If I don't want this risk, I should buy forex options.

What's happening with BFL is exactly the same. They price their stuff in USD and because they're a nice company, they allow anyone the option to pay in BTC. However, the deal will always be in USD and therefore refunds in BTC most probably differ in amount.

For people doing international trade, what's going on here is logical. For people that are not used to trading in more than one currency, this may feel like cheating.


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: becoin on January 21, 2013, 11:35:52 AM
When I go to Amazon.com and I order stuff, their prices are in USD. Now, since I live in the EU and Amazon.com is a nice company, they give me the option to pay in EUR instead of USD.
This has been answered many times os far... How many times I have to explain this to every idiot? Do I have to make a FAQ section about what is the difference between paying in bitcoins and paying in fiat with a credit card?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=135301.msg1452436#msg1452436


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: DobZombie on January 21, 2013, 11:55:06 AM

HERPA DERP. A HERPY HERPY DERA DERP

DA HERP A HERP?

What a fantastic argument you have presented me with.  I shall ponder on it and provide you with an answer later this week.


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: phedny on January 21, 2013, 12:45:33 PM
This has been answered many times os far... How many times I have to explain this to every idiot? Do I have to make a FAQ section about what is the difference between paying in bitcoins and paying in fiat with a credit card?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=135301.msg1452436#msg1452436

First, I don't really like to be called "every idiot". But hey, that's how you get called on The Interwebz when you're right, nowadays.

Anyway, what happens legally:
1. The website advertises a product and puts a price on it: USD 1,299
2. You click the "pre-order" button and go to a page to perform a pre-order. You can select quantity, shipment and payment method; at the bottom you see the grant total of USD 1,387 which is an offer for a deal the company is doing
3. Once you agree to this offer, the situation is: (a) BFL has the obligation to ship the product to you and (b) you have the obligation to transfer USD 1,387 to BFL
4. To fulfill your part of the deal, you choose to send a certain amount of BTC that is equals to USD 1,387 at the time of payment; BFL accepts this as payment to fulfill your obligation and the new situation is: (a) BFL now has the obligation to ship the product to you and (b) you have no obligations anymore
4. Now, when BFL fails to ship the product in time, you have the right to annul the voidable contract; doing so changes the situation to one where the product should stay or return to BFL and the USD 1,387 should stay or return to you; since you've already fulfilled your part of the contract, this should be reversed and therefore the new situation is: (a) BFL has the obligation to transfer USD 1,387 to you and (b) you have no obligations to BFL under this contract

BFL must now transfer USD 1,387 to you. Said in another way, they have a debt with a value of USD 1,387. They can offer you an amount of BTC, probably with the current exchange rate, and you accept those as repayment of the debt, the case can be closed. If you deny, BFL probably offers to transfer USD 1,387 to repay the debt. You're not allow to deny this offer, since USD is declared legal tender and can therefore always be used to repay any debt in the US.


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: DobZombie on January 21, 2013, 01:03:00 PM
since USD is declared legal tender and can therefore always be used to repay any debt in the US.

Also, as far as I know, BTC isn't considered legal tender anywhere.  So that fucks up the whole argument anyway  8)


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: crazy_rabbit on January 21, 2013, 04:01:27 PM
Did someone hire this guy to keep us entertained or what? Whew! Next time I want a balloon clown at this children's party, or maybe a pirate.


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: becoin on January 21, 2013, 04:36:18 PM
3. Once you agree to this offer, the situation is: (a) BFL has the obligation to ship the product to you and (b) you have the obligation to transfer USD 1,387 to BFL
The situation is:
I had the obligation to transfer bitcoins, not dollars! In contrast to your frivolous interpretations I have given you a proof; screenshot of the BFL's invoice clearly showing price in bitcoins as well, AND instructions where to send bitcoins! If I had the obligation to transfer dollars they should have pointed me their dollar bank account! But they didn't. They wanted me to transfer EXACT amount in bitcoins to their specific bitcoin address!


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: becoin on January 21, 2013, 04:41:26 PM
Also, as far as I know, BTC isn't considered legal tender anywhere. 
Ah, this is something new... So, paying in bitcoins is illegal?!  :o


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: DobZombie on January 21, 2013, 04:45:04 PM
Also, as far as I know, BTC isn't considered legal tender anywhere. 
Ah, this is something new... So, paying in bitcoins is illegal?!  :o

I wish to present you with a question that I have previously asked, but have not received an answer to yet.

You're a bit special aren't you?!?


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: KWH on January 21, 2013, 04:57:45 PM
Also, as far as I know, BTC isn't considered legal tender anywhere. 
Ah, this is something new... So, paying in bitcoins is illegal?!  :o



http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/ShortBus.jpg


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: ElectricMucus on January 21, 2013, 05:05:17 PM
becoin you got your share of shame, now everybody is distracted by the rally and can't pay attention to you.
Come back later.

kthxbye


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: becoin on January 21, 2013, 05:21:51 PM
I wish to present you with a question that I have previously asked, but have not received an answer to yet.
You've been answered. Apparently asking questions is much more important to you than reading the answers.

You're a bit special aren't you?!?
Yes, I am. But there are many like me. Vires in Numeris, remember?


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: becoin on January 21, 2013, 05:25:13 PM
now everybody is distracted by the rally
Wow. BFL's debt to their customers that purchased ASICs in bitcoins is growing everyday!


Title: Re: WOW! BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds!
Post by: mobodick on January 21, 2013, 05:26:34 PM
but nearly no company would do this as their expenses are in usd (at least for now). to much risk for them.
Simple. Such companies should not accept bitcoin payments and claim they are part of the bitcoin community!

LOL Then there would not have been any ASICs, stupid!
You cannot buy any of the equipment to make ASICs with bitcoins so according to you they should not have tried in the first place.
You propose an idiotic form of financial exclusionism that would instantly crash bitcoin.
Bitcoin, as it is at the moment, is fully dependant on the fiat economy.
Without the fiat economy there would be no computers, there would be no power stations and bitcoin would not be there.
So i'm not sure WTF you are talking about but there is just no way to separate bitcoin from the rest of the economy. It is a stupid fantasy.


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: KWH on January 21, 2013, 05:29:41 PM
I wish to present you with a question that I have previously asked, but have not received an answer to yet.
You've been answered. Apparently asking questions is much more important to you than reading the answers.

You're a bit special aren't you?!?
Yes, I am. But there are many like me. Vires in Numeris, remember?


Either sue them or STFU. Enough already. You should be embarrassed to keep posting drivel on a topic you lost your ass on.


Title: Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
Post by: mobodick on January 21, 2013, 05:29:45 PM
Also, as far as I know, BTC isn't considered legal tender anywhere. 
Ah, this is something new... So, paying in bitcoins is illegal?!  :o

So, using a dictionary is apparently not your strongest point?
 :-\