Bitcoin Forum

Hi guys
Thought I would start a thread regarding my asset om BitFunder G.MPOE (https://bitfunder.com/asset/G.MPOE).
It's another pass through to MPEX same idea as for the S.DICE pass through but this time for S.MPOE.


Do you want to invest in S.MPOE without having to go through the trouble of setting up a account on MPex?
Or maybe you want to avoid paying a 30 BTC fee for account creation?
Then look no further! G.MPOE is a perfect way to invest in S.MPOE through BitFunder without the trouble and all of the gain

Contract:
Each share has the right to 95% of the dividends paid by S.MPOE listed on MPex (http://mpex.co/?mpsic=S.MPOE).
Each G.MPOE is backed up by one share of S.MPOE share.
The dividend will be paid within 48 hours of the payment from S.MPOE. If this is not possible then the dividend will be paid out altogether with the next dividend.
The issuer has the right to issue more shares and buy back shares (at the value of 1 S.MPOE share on MPex). The shares have no voting rights.
In case of MPEX shut down or hacking the issuer is not responsible for potential losses or damages cause to the underlying backing

If you have any questions please do ask.
//DeaDTerra

A wall of 100k Shares is up at 0.000665 BTC per share :)
//DeaDTerra

This doesn't sound fair.

Issuing more shares without early announcement affects the ability of existing share holders to sell their stake if they want to.

And if we go by Satoshi Dice pass through on bitfunder, we know that bitfunder prices are always more than MPex prices - because of the 30 bitcoin MPex fee. Existing share holders can be screwed any time you see a good arbitrage opportunity. If you want to buy back shares, buy them back from the bitfunder market at the valuations the market decides. You shouldn't have the right to buy back shares from Bitfunder pass through share holders based on the price and valuations on the MPex market.

https://bitfunder.com/asset/G.MPOE#pane_tradehistory
The Trade History shows that less than 78,000 shares were listed sold at 0.000665.
Not 100K.

Maybe 22,000 shares were withdrawn?

Each share is (supposed to) be backed with 1 MPOE share, so I don't really see the problem of issuing more shares if DeadTerra isn't naked short selling. I don't like the ability to buy back shares @ MPEX prices, but it's the same for his other passthroughs. I also bet that some of the forum members here are going to accuse DT of scamming them if DT uses this portion in the contract that they didn't read  ::)

The issue is each pass through share is usually priced at a premium than the MPex rate. I buy them at a premium. If new shares are issued at the MPex rate, it definitely affects my ability to sell my stake. I have to either sell at a lower rate, or wait and pray that the new shares issued doesn't satisfy the market demand.

All new share issues should have prior warnings.

If new shares are issued at the MPex rate, then you could buy that and not pay it at a premium. Obviously there's a risk with paying more than MPex price. 

I understand. I am willing to take the risk of paying more than the MPex price as well as get only 95% of the dividends for 2 reasons:
i. Save on the MPex fee of 30 bitcoins
ii. Have liquidity in the market - allowing me to sell the shares at a price higher than I would be able to at MPex.

But by issuing new shares and flooding the market, I get affected if I want to sell my shares. It completely negates the second reason people pay a premium for for pass through shares.

I'm happy if I want to buy them, but not if I want to sell.
That is why, any manipulation of supply and demand should require prior warning.

While it might effect the short term liquidity of the market it has no long term effect of introducing more shares as the backing or underlying asset of is share is exactly the same independent of how many shares I issue.
Arbitrage is a healthy thing for the market it brings down the spread and it's part of the free market hence I encourage it. I arbitrage when I see that the spreads are great and hence causes problems for people who want to sell/buy the shares.
The reason why I have this clause is in the case where I want to back up my bags and shut down the pass through, Please look through my past. I do not misuse my contracts for personal gain.


I decided to take away 22k as they were selling faster then I could keep up with, hence I was starting to have naked sales.
Hence I took the offer down and I now have a new offer which is completely backed :)

This is some of the arguments which were used against Erik when he issued more shares, You are arguieing out of a speculation point of view, this is not investing but gambling. For a investor the short term market price should not matter other then as a way to buy or sell at that price, as long as the underlying assets are the same a investor should not see a problem with issuing more shares.
But as said previously I am not looking to abuse the contract and manipulate the market, it's simply for my own comfort which I have the clause of that I can issue shares as I would like.
I will try to post when I issue more shares but this is not something I can promise.


People should not pay extra for shares if their reason is that they believe that they maintain this higher value in the future, that's speculation once again and someone who speculatates short term must understand the risk they are taking. I can not control the market, nor will I try to. I will issue shares when I can and I feel like issuing more shares, but I will not use it as a means to manipulate the market.
//DeaDTerra

22722 shares were placed as a sell order for 0.00066 BTC each :)
//DeaDTerra

Thank you for your response. It at least gives us an idea about your thought process.


What do you consider a short term vs what do you consider long term?

By the time long term comes into effect, the underlying assets might see a lot of change. Short terms are very important. Short terms don't always mean speculation.

For eg: I don't speculate. I research and invest. But I seek out irregular and asymmetrical information in the market - to make money off. Timing plays a very important role for this. To give you a non-bitcoin investment example, I research into annual rainfall a region receives. And based on that, I make a call on how well agriculture and companies that process food will do over the next 3-6 months. After 4-9 months, when the company's quarterly reports start reflecting the effect rainfall has had on their bottom line - everyone else starts buying and the price starts going up.  This is where I make my profit.  Buy low and sell high.

If a company issues new shares right before then, all my effort in researching goes to vain as it disallows me to sell at a price lower than theirs.  And the long term may completely change if the rainfall next year is poor. Meaning smart investors not earning good returns.

(This is what exactly happened with Eric and Satoshi Dice. Investors like me who were tracking the blockchain for profits made by Satoshi Dice could have sold our stake for 0.008 to 0.009 bitcoins per share. But because of the discounted issuance of new shares, we are stuck at selling them right above the price Eric determined. Who knows when Satoshi Dice will have an exceptional month like January again?)

Please do your best to announce your plans before hand. Whether it is regarding issuance of new shares. Or buying back of shares. Thank you.

This'd seem to be more an issue of you than of the PT. Why buy at a premium? Put your bid in at 95% of MPEx price and wait for it to be filled.


Basically it's like this: MPEx exists to put a skewer through the greater fool theory. You figure that's what "investing" means, so you just won't let go of it. Consequently you'd like someone to run a little bubble machine which is vaguely related to MPEx to offer it some backing, but sufficiently remote for you to still be able to play in your bubbles, make fiddy cent or w/e. It's not that the PT op "should" anything, it's that you shouldn't be doing this.

It does not make sense for the pass-through to trade much higher than the underlying asset. While there is some convenience factor to the pass-through, the operator takes a cut of the profits. There is more risk because you have to trust an intermediary and one more exchange, so to me it makes sense for the pass-through price to be even less than 95% of the underlying asset.

I agree with this.
You guys are better at saying what I wanted to say xD
//DeaDTerra

It makes complete sense when your position in a bitcoin company trading on MPex is going to be about 100 to 300 bitcoins.
Spending 30 bitcoins just to trade when your position is going to be 10x the fees - that doesn't make financial sense to me.
(Most people on Bitfunder don't even have a position of 300 bitcoins. More like 20 bitcoins. But anyways...)

Satoshi Dice has paid dividends of 0.0005 per share in the past 6 months. 5% of that is 0.000025.

You would need a position of 1,200,000 million shares where you can justify the MPex fees over a 6 month time frame.

Even if the future growth rate of Satoshi Dice is 4x what it is now - and we consider a 1 year time frame instead of 6 months - you would still need a position of 150,000 shares at current prices. How many people have such a position?

I give an example of Satoshi Dice in a thread about MPOE only because that is the most valuable and traded share. The numbers only get worse for less valuable companies.

It makes perfect sense with someone who is going to buy fewer shares to pay a bit more. Paying a few mBTC or cBTC more and getting 5% less in dividends still gets you 15-25% annual yield (with Satoshi Dice). Paying 30 bitcoins in fees wipes that away - or at least takes you a couple of years to see returns.  This is why shares that pay less dividends still sell at a premium at pass throughs.

Wait for it to be filled? Thats your suggestion?
Shows how much you value time and timing.

Are you saying that if the share prices of companies listed on MPex sells at a few mBTC more, its a bubble?

It does not matter what your size of position is, since the pass-through fee is a percent of profits. So whether you have a .01 btc stake or a 1000 btc stake, the pass-through still takes 5% of the profits. The MPEx fee is a flat fee, so there the total size does make a difference.

Yes, we are saying that if the current asking price on the pass-through is above the MPEx price, it would be better to put up a bid and wait for it to be filled. Alternately, you could buy the over-priced share and hope that the underlying asset goes up in price past what you paid for it, but either way you will have to wait some time for your investment to profit you anything.

It sounds like you understand very well the trade-off you are making.  Time or money.

Thank you for the comment.

I'm not sure why I've been unclear in making my point: the number of shares on a marketplace - the supply - affects the price.
Because the pass through has limited supply, the prices will be consistently higher. (And the various pass throughs has proven this historically. Consistent is the key term.)

Maybe an example with small numbers will show this more clearly.

Say Tom opens a pass through with only 10 shares in it priced at 1BTC.
Harry buys all the 10 shares for 1BTC each. And places 3 of them for sale for 1.1BTC.
Dick comes and sees that his only option is to pay a bit more and buy the shares at 1.1BTC. Or pay 30BTC fee and buy the shares at 1BTC on MPex. So he buys them at 1.1BTC and lists them for sale at 1.15BTC. Because the supply is low, placing a bid and waiting won't help as Harry won't sell the shares at a lower 1BTC price ever.
Why does he buy at 1.1BTC when the price is 1BTC on MPex? Because he knows that he will see a good return on investment even by paying a 0.1BTC premium.
Now if Tom the pass through operator buys 10 more shares from MPex and lists them at 1BTC, it affects Dick's ability to sell. He has to now wait for the dividend payments to make more than 0.1BTC before he can list the share for sale and see a return on his investment.

Supply of one marketplace affects the prices on that marketplace. People are betting that the prices at a pass through will be consistently high - because they know of the 30BTC entrance fee and they know the supply. Supply affects the prices consistently.

The same asset can have different prices in different marketplaces. Its not about the asset's inherent value. Its about the demand-supply. This is why you consistently see oil prices in USA to be higher than that of Oman. You can't say place a buy order and wait for it to go down - because it never will - it will consistently be high - because of the supply.

Now I trust when DeaDTerra says that he won't abuse this right for arbitrage purposes. (And if you don't trust him, you shouldn't invest in his pass through at all.) But the question had to be raised before he said that. You had to understand his thought process.

But if you look at how the pass-through is structured, clearly the supply can be any amount up to the amount of shares of the underlying asset.

Say you buy a share of the pass-through at 1.0, and want to sell at 1.1, but why would the next guy want to buy the pass-through at 1.1? He would want the same price you got. Clearly the fair thing for the pass-through operator to do is list more shares so people can continue buying at the market rate of the underlying asset. If the price of the underlying asset rises, then he will sell shares at the higher rate, and you are free to sell your shares and take your profit as well.

People much cleverer than you have tried to time the market, to their detriment. And I'm talking brain surgeons here. Forget about anything you think you know on the subject, I'm pretty certain it is all wrong, without exception. Start over fresh.


You've been very clear at showing you don't have a point. What you would like is for the supply to be artificially diminished so as to allow you to speculate. This is inefficient, for one, it's unwelcome, for the other, and if it were to happen it wouldn't be to the benefit of Joe Blow nobody. It'd be the operator doing himself the favor, and they'd be catching hell for it too, cause it's pretty much scammer behavior.

Go buy a Bitcoin gem or orb or something, your mind is not yet ripe for actual Bitcoin finance. This shit's not for you.

You are saying brain surgeons are not good at timing the market. Well - HA!

Do you truly believe that timing has no value in investing?
Or are you just ranting for the sake of ranting?

First you say I have no point. And then you inaccurately try to say what point I'm making. All in the space of 2 sentences. Again - HA!

What I would like is for the pass through operator to run the pass through in the best interest of the stake holders (which is in his long term best interest too). And not take advantage of the short term arbitrage opportunities - because they will arise due to the nature of the pass through and the 30 bitcoin fee barrier that many small time investors can't pay.

For example: I had no issues with Haverlockinvestments issuing an IPO for their Satoshi Dice pass through after an announcement - after Eric Voorhees sold some more of his shares. Thats good policy - giving people an advance notice.

If you believe that the pass through operator should run arbitrages just to maintain similar share prices on different market places - then this shits not for you.

Enough arguing,
Please take this to another thread.
The contract stand!
If you don't like it and then you could go somewhere else for your shares.
I do things as I do them, I do it in good faith with the investors best in mind if you don't trust me and think I will misuse my position then I am probably not the best choice for you!
//DeaDTerra

Thank you.
And sorry for the mess on your thread. I won't respond to MPOE-PR or others further on this thread.

I have faith in you and believe you will do what is for the best of the investors. Thank you.

Hello!
I will be going away on holiday to Italy,
From Sunday the 24th to Sunday the 3rd.
My internet access will be limited and hence it might take a while for me to answer your pms,posts and emails.
Hence be patient with me,
the best way to contact me is through email at terragubben@gmail.com
I will not be updating the ask walls during this time and any dividend might be a bit delayed,
I have placed some final ask walls and I have balanced the books so that even if all of the asks sell all shares will be backed 1:1.
Best Regards
//DeaDTerra

Because of competition - there are other passthroughs out there so if someone starts being a scummy fuck people will use one of the competitors.

I know for a fact you can't time a mature market. Since MPEx Bitcoin finance is a mature market. Ergo....

Dividend has been paid 39 Satoshis per share.
//DeaDTerra

13000 share wall placed at 0.000678 per share.
//DeaDTerra

Dividend paid.
//DeaDTerra

Temporary suspension of trading for user protection ?

S.Dice PT is also suspended. I asked Ukto about it on IRC and he said the suspension relates to site security / hacking.

<@Ukto>    PalePhoenix: lots of concerns over hackers lately

I am waiting a pending investigation,
once the investigation is over I will resume trading :)
//DeaDTerra

Would it not be appropriate to write something about the suspension under "news" on bitfunder under s.dice ?

A pass-through for Mircea Popescus Options Emporium? Please pass-through this scam bs as far away as possible from me.

If you are not interested in the services I am offering please get out of my threads.
I will have no trolling, FUD or witchhunting in here :)
//DeaDTerra

It's not trolling nor FUD. Warning people of scammers should be welcomed - unless you're one.

Please look up your facts before accusing someone of being a scammer ^^
Check my history and check my trust :P
I am no scammer.
If you don't want my service get out.
If you want to complain about a scam please take it in the scam accusation part of the forum.
Now please leave.
//DeaDTerra

This is not a scam. You should do some more research. There is a monthly report for the underlying asset, S.MPOE. DeaDTerra has been very good about paying the dividend.

I'm not calling you a scammer, but standing up to them is not good either. There are plenty of threads about MPOE and their other businesses in Scam Accusations thread, including this one:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=216280.0

Raising awareness towards shady business is something everyone should be doing - and it's what I'm doing here now.

And don't tell me to leave, this is not a moderated thread and everyone is allowed to write in it. I do think that my business here is done however.

Then please post there :)
If MPOE is a scam or not has nothing to do with the service I provide and is not relivant.
Hence you can be moderated for overtaking the thread and not staying on the subject.
The reason why I tell you to leave is because the topic you are brining up is not wanted here, I don't want this thread to spiral into some scam accusation thread.
Now please, take this else where.
//DeaDTerra

From that thread: "MPEX - Despite the fact that the security never actually stole or scammed members the owner Mircea Popescu is a disgusting person that uses the term "nigger" on his blog while also constantly putting people down and generally being a complete snob. Lied multiple times about being the owner of a successful company, if it wasn't for Satoshidice releasing stock in MPEX this person would be selling potatoes somewhere in Romania."

So ... MPEX is a scam because you don't like the guy running it? That is some dumb reasoning there.

Please guys
Take this elsewhere!!!!
This thread has nothing to do with this conversation.
Please respect that.
//DeaDTerra

I would recommend you to do some research. It is not by coincidence that people related to MPOE/BitBet.us etc have an yellow IGNORE button on them. They treat their customers and shareholders like shit. You could also read the owners blog if you want more convincing.

Anyway, I will stop posting on this thread. Please feel free to join the other thread if you want.

I have read many pages on his blog, and he seems to know what he is talking about most of the time.


I think it is a valid topic for this thread. This thread is for discussing your pass-through for MPOE, and whether MPOE is a scam or not seems to be a very valid question for any potential investors, since that is where the money they hope to be earning is coming from.

In that case, I will also leave this here: https://i.imgur.com/U50p1sW.png

And the owner even publicly blogged about it, bragging to be the "best customer rep in the world": http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/i-am-the-best-customer-rep-in-the-world/

So yeah, if you want to a) support a business like that or b) get responses like that when you reach out for them, go ahead and buy some MPOE.

S.MPOE is not an appropriate investment vehicle for the plankton of bitcoin finance (you).

I'm being schooled by a newbie, sweet. Anyway, stick to the topic please.

Trading has been resumed :)
//DeaDTerra

Cool. Issue more G.MPOE please (backed by real shares of course :))

I will be away for four days now,
Once I get back I will have some time over to spend om my PTs.
I will buy more shares on MPEX and issue more shares on the PTs, I will also add some FAQ :)
I feel that I have not had much time for the PTs and they are a bit neglected ^^
//DeaDTerra

have fun on your trip take your time it's cool shareholders can wait and hurry print + dilute shares..thanks

So I take it the dividends will be paid today? 6-29-13

The backing of the shares is 1:1 it has never been anything else.
I have not diluted or printed any more shares.
If you are not happy with the service I provide then switch to another PT.
It is a free market.
//DeaDTerra

imo printing+dumping/\shares is what u do "open source" means we can dump>cash out\/reboot..thanks

You do not understand the basics of my PT.
I buy shares before I issue new once,
You share is backed my one MPOE shares on MPEX and will be backed by that amount independent on how many more shares I issue.
//DeaDTerra

Issuing shares at double the MPEx rate isn't going to help you with the volume :P

I have not issued or offered any new shares yet.
I will buy more backing in the next couple of days and then start issueing and selling more shares.
//DeaDTerra

Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding then :)

I will be winding down all my other PTs, as I no longer can ensure regular payments or that I can set off time on a weekly basis.
My time and presence is required sporadically across several countries and time zones. I can hence not ensure that I can payout dividends or complete other tasks within a reason time period while upholding the security measures I would like to keep.
This is something I have been thinking about doing for sometime now, but this issue has made it clearer.
It is time for me to shut down my PTs and step down, there are now several other reliable and trust able PT operators which you can fall back on.
I will still be available if anyone wants my opinion or advice on things, I might also do additional fund raising in the future but more focused on a small group of bigger investors.

Thank you for trusting me with your money and time, I hope that even though the recent fuck ups you appreciate the service I have offered the community for some time now.
Within shortly all PTs will be bought back or the ownership will be transfer to another trusted community member.
Best Regards
//DeaDTerra

For G.MPOE this means a forced buy back, as according to the contract I pay the current price on MPEX.
The final buyback can be seen below, I paid 0.00080603 which is the current ask price on MPEX:
You will be issueing (98.35661678 / 122026) = 0.00080603 per share. Final Total: 98.35661678.

Thanks, but you could have announced it earlier in advance, and provide option to redeem underlying shares directly to mpex/coinbr users and get better price - now just 3 days after, the price hovers between 0.00082-83. I first offered you this solution and assistance when moving from GLBSE, you seem not to put any thought to it again ::)