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Title: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: matt4054 on March 18, 2013, 03:41:38 PM Hello,
Anyone here has an OKPAY debit card? My balance has lost 10% of value over the week-end and I highly suspect this to be the result of the events in Cyprus, CSC24Seven being a service of the Cyprus Central Bank. However, I haven't got any confirmation yet from OKPAY, and my card statement is empty (just the balance has been reduced) Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: davout on March 18, 2013, 04:03:27 PM wow, glad I did not follow up on their e-mails to integrate their service into Bitcoin-Central
Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: caveden on March 18, 2013, 04:11:44 PM Davout, in Portuguese there's a proverb that translated is something like "Don't spit up, it may fall back on your face".
France is not that immune from these kind of heists... nobody in the Eurozone is, actually. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: ArticMine on March 18, 2013, 04:12:57 PM It is Cyprus since these debit cards are issued by a financial institution in Cyprus. 10% is high it should be 6.75% below 100,000 EUR and 9.9% above 100,000 EUR so I would contact OKPAY to get the amount withdrawn reduced to the correct amount.
Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: caveden on March 18, 2013, 04:14:37 PM If OKPay sums everything on a single account of theirs, it might fall mostly in the 10% cut.
Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: justusranvier on March 18, 2013, 04:17:31 PM France is not that immune from these kind of heists... nobody in the Eurozone is, actually. Nobody in the world is immune.The only safe thing is bitcoins at an address whose private keys you exclusively control. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: ArticMine on March 18, 2013, 04:20:07 PM If OKPay sums everything on a single account of theirs, it might fall mostly in the 10% cut. The cards are issued by an "electronic money institution" in Cyprus so there may be a case for the lower rate of 6.75% for amounts under 100,000 EUR. https://www.okpay.com/en/company/agreements/debit-cards-tos.html (https://www.okpay.com/en/company/agreements/debit-cards-tos.html). In any event it should be 9.9% not 10% for amounts over 100,000 EUR. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: matt4054 on March 18, 2013, 04:21:23 PM I do not want to spread false information, but I just find it surprising that depositors are not informed of what's going on and I think this will only make the bank run scenario more likely: the only thing I can be considering now is whether I will withdraw all remaining funds from my account or not, before they all burn because of some foreign state's bankruptcy.
I will keep you updated of the response from OKPAY. So far they have just not answered it at all. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: justusranvier on March 18, 2013, 04:23:40 PM I would say a pile of gold coins is pretty safe as well. It's not possible to memorize a pile of gold coins.Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: caveden on March 18, 2013, 04:27:44 PM I would say a pile of gold coins is pretty safe as well. At least while you don't get burgled. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: ArticMine on March 18, 2013, 04:35:53 PM France is not that immune from these kind of heists... nobody in the Eurozone is, actually. Nobody in the world is immune.The only safe thing is bitcoins at an address whose private keys you exclusively control. Was OKPAY not the victim of a Bitcoin double spend? It was only resolved as a result the honesty of the sender of the coins. I wonder what would have happened if the sender withheld 6.75% as a "network tax" when correcting the double spend? Nothing is actually immune and yes that includes Bitcoin. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: Piper67 on March 18, 2013, 04:39:10 PM My OKPay account is still at the same level, no 10% discount ;D
And Bitcoin deposits appear to be back online. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: matt4054 on March 18, 2013, 04:44:46 PM My OKPay account is still at the same level, no 10% discount ;D I want to make it clear: My OKPAY account was NOT debited. OKPAY is based in the Virgin British Islands, as far as I know. Only my OKPAY Debit Card balance was debited. OKPAY used the services of CSC24Seven for their debit card. And CSC24Seven is regulated by the Central Bank of Cyprus. I can't tell for sure if it was 6.75% or 9.9%, because the transaction statement is empty (maybe not updated yet) I hope things are more clear now. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: paraipan on March 18, 2013, 04:45:33 PM Davout, in Portuguese there's a proverb that translated is something like "Don't spit up, it may fall back on your face". France is not that immune from these kind of heists... nobody in the Eurozone is, actually. +1 :-\ Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: freakying99 on March 18, 2013, 04:50:47 PM There is nothing worse than propaganda, and bitcoiners are full of it.
As much as i dont like fiat monetary system, before this 10% or whatever cut can be applied, local law must be done and this takes time, so you have time to withdraw your funds. BTW this is the dumbiest thing that these parrots could come with, it only creates possibility for bank run where there could be game over. Why not just loan (aka create) more money, this proven way is much safer choice and the dumb masses wouldnt mind. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: ArticMine on March 18, 2013, 05:01:27 PM My OKPay account is still at the same level, no 10% discount ;D I want to make it clear: My OKPAY account was NOT debited. OKPAY is based in the Virgin British Islands, as far as I know. Only my OKPAY Debit Card balance was debited. OKPAY used the services of CSC24Seven for their debit card. And CSC24Seven is regulated by the Central Bank of Cyprus. I can't tell for sure if it was 6.75% or 9.9%, because the transaction statement is empty (maybe not updated yet) I hope things are more clear now. Can you move what is left of your money out of the debit card and back to your OKPAY account? Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: matt4054 on March 18, 2013, 05:04:06 PM Can you move what is left of your money out of the debit card and back to your OKPAY account? Yes you can, at a 3% fee. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: matt4054 on March 18, 2013, 05:23:51 PM Here's a follow-up:
Without any information from OKPAY (which I find lame), I called the support line of the Cyprus-based card issuer, and I had a friendly guy on the line from CSC24Seven. After checking my card holder status, he gave me the following information: The "rogue debit" on the card was indeed initiated by Cyprus authorities because of the ongoing events, they affected all card holders in Cyprus. However, the card issuer announced me over the phone that these debits would be compensated by the bank, for eMoney card holders, within a week. Since the information that was given to me seemed transparent and credible, and the guy on the phone was obviously having a hard time explaining all this, I decided that I would not withdraw the remaining funds right now and wait for a week. I will keep you updated, for those interested. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: paraipan on March 18, 2013, 06:44:16 PM Just received this email a few moments ago, it's related to CSC24Seven
Quote Cyprus bailout effect Dear Customer, As you have probably already learned from the news, the Cypriot government is planning to introduce a one-time tax on all customer accounts held with Cypriot financial institution. In order to secure the collection of this tax, many customers have had funds blocked against their accounts held in Cyprus-based banking institutions. UWC Financial Services Ltd issued a statement confirming that Cyprus bailout will have no effect on the funds held in our customers accounts, as these funds are kept outside Cyprus. For our UWCFS Quick Cards it is regrettable that customers that are holders of the CSC24Seven issued cards will have probably noticed that an unrecognised transaction has been issued on their cards over the weekend 16th-17th March 2013. CSC24Seven the card issuing bank has originated these transactions under instruction from the government of Cyprus to ensure the collection of this tax from all account holders. While it is still unclear whether the tax will affect all accounts or just savings accounts, bank accounts or specific other types of accounts remains to be confirmed but until the final decision (expected Tuesday 19th March 2013) is announced, the funds blocked on UWCFS Quick Cards are under the control and disposal of the card issuing bank (CSC24Seven). CSC24Seven has assured UWC Financial Services Ltd, if in the event that e-money (pre-paid card) accounts are granted exclusion from the bailout scheme, the blocked funds will be reversed back to pre-pard card accounts. UWC Financial Services Ltd are in continued communication with CSC24Seven and we are continually monitoring the situation and endeavour to keep our customers updated on any further development. You can find more information on the situation in Cyprus in our daily market reviews from Mayzus Investment Company Ltd http://www.mayzus.com/en/market-reviews/marketreview-3444.html Kind regards, Nikolay Rozhok CEO UWC Financial Services Ltd Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: caveden on March 18, 2013, 07:43:23 PM As much as i dont like fiat monetary system, before this 10% or whatever cut can be applied, local law must be done and this takes time, so you have time to withdraw your funds. No, they don't. The amount that will be taken will be calculated based on last Friday's balance, if I'm not mistaken. Actually, these amounts are already frozen, as OKPay mail above says. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: davout on March 18, 2013, 08:21:11 PM Davout, in Portuguese there's a proverb that translated is something like "Don't spit up, it may fall back on your face". France is not that immune from these kind of heists... nobody in the Eurozone is, actually. I didn't spit on anyone, I just considered myself lucky, that's all. But I do love your proverb. Sucks for all those that got a haircut. And you're definitely right, nobody is immune. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: Vladimir on March 18, 2013, 11:19:18 PM In Russia this would be "Do not piss against the wind."
Did I get it right. OKpay or whomever got their bank account raided and they have passed it onto their customers? This cannot be lawful. Their "taxes" is their responsibility, not their customers. The accounts in Cyprus banks are not in the names of the cardholders, are they? Will they next pass on corporation tax as "an unrecognized transaction" tomorrow? Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: MPOE-PR on March 18, 2013, 11:33:04 PM Just received this email a few moments ago, it's related to CSC24Seven Quote Cyprus bailout effect Dear Customer, As you have probably already learned from the news, the Cypriot government is planning to introduce a one-time tax on all customer accounts held with Cypriot financial institution. In order to secure the collection of this tax, many customers have had funds blocked against their accounts held in Cyprus-based banking institutions. UWC Financial Services Ltd issued a statement confirming that Cyprus bailout will have no effect on the funds held in our customers accounts, as these funds are kept outside Cyprus. For our UWCFS Quick Cards it is regrettable that customers that are holders of the CSC24Seven issued cards will have probably noticed that an unrecognised transaction has been issued on their cards over the weekend 16th-17th March 2013. CSC24Seven the card issuing bank has originated these transactions under instruction from the government of Cyprus to ensure the collection of this tax from all account holders. While it is still unclear whether the tax will affect all accounts or just savings accounts, bank accounts or specific other types of accounts remains to be confirmed but until the final decision (expected Tuesday 19th March 2013) is announced, the funds blocked on UWCFS Quick Cards are under the control and disposal of the card issuing bank (CSC24Seven). CSC24Seven has assured UWC Financial Services Ltd, if in the event that e-money (pre-paid card) accounts are granted exclusion from the bailout scheme, the blocked funds will be reversed back to pre-pard card accounts. UWC Financial Services Ltd are in continued communication with CSC24Seven and we are continually monitoring the situation and endeavour to keep our customers updated on any further development. You can find more information on the situation in Cyprus in our daily market reviews from Mayzus Investment Company Ltd http://www.mayzus.com/en/market-reviews/marketreview-3444.html Kind regards, Nikolay Rozhok CEO UWC Financial Services Ltd First linode stole from us, and then we boycotted linode. Then dwolla stole from us, and we boycotted dwolla. Now Cyprus steals from us, and so we shall boycott Cyprus. Or maybe we just don't give a shit. In Russia this would be "Do not piss against the wind." Did I get it right. OKpay or whomever got their bank account raided and they have passed it onto their customers? This cannot be lawful. Their "taxes" is their responsibility, not their customers. The accounts in Cyprus banks are not in the names of the cardholders, are they? Will they next pass on corporation tax as "an unrecognized transaction" tomorrow? Yes well, obviously they'll play it both ways if they can. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: Vladimir on March 18, 2013, 11:39:07 PM Cyprus/EU has not stolen from us. At worst they shaved CSC24Seven bank account. Then CSC24Seven has in turn shaved it's customers. I suppose it would be OK (pun intended) if every cardholder had a segregated Cyprus bank account backing the card via CSC24Seven. But somehow I really doubt that this is a case. Here come lawsuits....
https://www.okpay.com/en/company/agreements/debit-cards-tos.html now where exactly it said that it is OK for OKpay to charge their customers for "taxes" of OKpay? This is a much bigger story than many realize. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: Vladimir on March 19, 2013, 12:08:19 AM My balance has lost 10% of value over the week-end Was your balance higher than 100 000$ EUR? Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: caveden on March 19, 2013, 08:24:48 AM In Russia this would be "Do not piss against the wind." Did I get it right. OKpay or whomever got their bank account raided and they have passed it onto their customers? This cannot be lawful. Their "taxes" is their responsibility, not their customers. The accounts in Cyprus banks are not in the names of the cardholders, are they? Will they next pass on corporation tax as "an unrecognized transaction" tomorrow? Every business passes its taxes on to its customers, always. How else are they supposed to operate? That shouldn't be news. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: davout on March 19, 2013, 08:38:28 AM Cyprus/EU has not stolen from us. At worst they shaved CSC24Seven bank account. Then CSC24Seven has in turn shaved it's customers. I suppose it would be OK (pun intended) if every cardholder had a segregated Cyprus bank account backing the card via CSC24Seven. But somehow I really doubt that this is a case. Here come lawsuits.... https://www.okpay.com/en/company/agreements/debit-cards-tos.html now where exactly it said that it is OK for OKpay to charge their customers for "taxes" of OKpay? This is a much bigger story than many realize. You have an account there, you get shaved, OK pay doesn't get taxed, the customer does. As much as the shaving is retarded the fact that the customer pays is plain logical. There's just one thing, the accounts should be segregated so the lower tax tier should be applied. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: Vladimir on March 19, 2013, 09:21:53 AM No I have no account. Purely an independent observer here with only vested interest being intense dislike of the banksters and their thieving ways.
I will agree with you if every specific debit cards has an underlying bank account in Cyprus in the name of the specific customer and this account is segregated from account of the card issuer. However knowing typical pricing and terms of such accounts I find this rather improbable. Yes most likely there is more than one account and some accounts are used by the card issuer for their own money and some separate account is for aggregated blocks of debit cards. But these accounts are very likely in the card issuer name not in debit card holder names. I speculate that these accounts are in the name of UWC Financial Services Ltd with a Cyprus Bank (or whatever up-link is between them and actual bank account) and they got 10% haircut since the amount is more than 130k$. Then they simply pass it to the customers. I find it highly doubtful that anyone would have more than 130k$ on a prepaid OKpay debit card and the OP has reported 10% haircut not 6.75% one. You cannot deny the disconnect between 10% and 6.75% here. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: davout on March 19, 2013, 09:26:50 AM No I have no account. Purely an independent observer here with only vested interest being intense dislike of the banksters and their thieving ways. I will agree with you if customer debit cards have underlying bank account in Cyprus in the name of every specific customer and every debit card has an underlying segregated bank account. However knowing pricing and terms of such account I find this rather improbable. However, I speculate that there is one account in the name of UWC Financial Services Ltd with a Cyprus Bank (or whatever up-link is between them and actual bank account) and they got 10% haircut. Then they simply pass it to the customers. I find it highly doubtful that anyone would have more than 130k$ on a prepaid OKpay debit card and the OP has reported 10% haircut not 6.75% one. I don't really know OKPay that much, do they have anonymous debit cards? if so it's doubtful that the funds be segregated. But hey I don't know, I'm not OKPay, so it's purely speculation. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 6.75% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: matt4054 on March 19, 2013, 10:58:05 AM As I said previously, I still have no written statement of the levy, but after calculating it from counterpart statements, I can tell that the levy was 6.75% (in my case, with about $200 on my account) and not 9.9% as I first thought.
The most curious thing about the situation is being left without *any* information and/or support. I did not even receive the e-mail from UWC FC that was pasted in this topic. My support requests are now left unanswered for more than 24h, within business days. As I told them already, although I support OKPAY for their Bitcoin acceptance, I cannot understand the lack of communication on their side about this problem. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: Vladimir on March 19, 2013, 11:08:41 AM ok if it is 6.75 then things are getting clearer a bit. I suppose there is a reasonable possibility that they will have such "second tier" financial services providers to act as "tax collectors" and fleece their customers on behalf of ultimately German banksters completely "legimately". It obviously still sucks big time.
If you have only 200$ there and if they will not "tax" <20k deposits as they reportedly want to do it now then it will get refunded to you. And surely the reason why OKpay is not saying much is because they do not know themselves yet what the hell is going on. The reason why they charged so prompty is probably because they do not want to freeze cards and at the same time want to avoid mini "prepaid debit card run". If I personally had any non trivial money with any financial institution I would run on saturday 16th. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: matt4054 on March 20, 2013, 11:01:58 AM And surely the reason why OKpay is not saying much is because they do not know themselves yet what the hell is going on. I could totally understand if they at least issued a public statement regarding this, saying something like "Allright guys, something has gone terribly wrong in Europe / Cyprus, we don't know the outcome yet, but we're working hard to protect your funds as much as we can". Even if it's PR BS, it's still better than silence / ignoring requests. In my opinion, it is due diligence from any financial institution. 2 business days later, my inquiries are still left unanswered. And yes, I'm bitching about it... Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: matt4054 on March 21, 2013, 10:01:35 AM Happy End at least for me (don't know if the following was sent to all card holders or just me)
Quote from: CSC24Seven Queries <queries@csc24seven.com> Dear XXXXX, Please note that the recent authorization to your account made by CSC24Seven.com has been removed. You now have full access to your funds. Apologies for any inconvenience this may have caused. Kind Regards, Support Team CSC24Seven.com Ltd. Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: ShadowAlexey on March 22, 2013, 07:31:32 AM Are this cards still operable?
Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: matt4054 on March 22, 2013, 02:44:02 PM Yes, I tried a test transaction, my CSC24Seven / OKPAY debit card is still green, I can use it, transactions are authorised.
I think they're just having a hard time with their government at the moment :( Besides, I can confirm that the rogue government transaction was refunded to my account by the bank within a couple of days. I can only regret the lack of prompt information from them, although I can understand that it was caused by an unprecedented, scandalous decision upstream that should never have been taken in the first place. My conclusion of the story: I take it as a real-life warning that I should no longer have trust in the government for not stealing money from their population's bank accounts if their debt shall become to high. It doesn't matter that it is the result of a biased political system where it's OK to just let dumb people listen to dumb promises made by (sometimes not even) smart looking, yet dumb presidents... (just my 2 satoshis here). PS: I am no longer selling my bitcoins for fiat currency at the moment. Who among sane people does anyway? :) Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: Enigma81 on March 23, 2013, 09:07:12 PM on behalf of ultimately German banksters completely "legimately". The haircut potential sucks for everyone involved - I agree.. But how can you blame the Germans? No one is holding a gun to Cyprus's collective head and forcing them to accept the loan. The EU (Germany+all others) made it pretty simple.. We'll give you a (HUGE) loan, but you have to come up with some collateral first. Cyprus CAN say no to the terms. Enigma Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: Vladimir on March 23, 2013, 09:10:12 PM I do not blame Germans. I blame banksters.
Title: Re: OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited? Post by: S-Fattah on May 14, 2013, 11:42:17 AM By the way, returning to the subject "OKPAY debit cards, 10% tax Cyprus debited?"
OKPAY reports: "We are happy to inform you that the funds blocked on OKPAY Debit Cards as well as limitations have been removed. Eventually the events on Cyprus did not cause any negative effect on our customer's funds. Please feel free to use your OKPAY Debit Card as usual". |