Bitcoin Forum

Economy => Scam Accusations => Topic started by: smoothie on March 27, 2013, 05:27:38 AM



Title: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: smoothie on March 27, 2013, 05:27:38 AM


I'm surprised that this forum (THEYMOS yes you or other mods) have not labeled BFL, Inaba, etc as scammers. Since when does BFL get a free pass when it comes to not meeting promised deadlines? Pirate was given 3 weeks and BFL is given 5 months? Something isn't right here.

BFL needs to be disallowed to advertise on this forum their BULLSHIT ads which are misleading saying "order now" as opposed to "preorder now".

Would it not be the same if PirateAt40 after stoping withdrawals in August decided to put up advertisements on this forum asking for funds from investors and in return giving them something (percent profit each week)?

How is BFL being allowed to put up misleading ads about a product (that still has to be proven to exist) on this forum any different than my "what if pirate" scenario?

This whole ordeal with BFL feels a lot like PirateAt40 but only 10 times bigger.

Watch out guys...I think the tsunami is on its way. You may not have felt the earthquake but the result is on its way.

Get your popcorn ready for a ton of shit to start flying should BFL continually delay or even run with the funds.

 ;D


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: smoothie on March 27, 2013, 05:33:07 AM
Theymos openly said he thought pirate was a ponzi.

I doubt he thinks BFL is. Most of us do not think it is a scam but rather them just being massively incompetent.






I guess someone needs to define at what point is a incompetent operation considered a scam.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: TradeFortress 🏕 on March 27, 2013, 05:36:44 AM
Theymos openly said he thought pirate was a ponzi.

I doubt he thinks BFL is. Most of us do not think it is a scam but rather them just being massively incompetent.






I guess someone needs to define at what point is a incompetent operation considered a scam.
When they stop honoring refunds in USD?


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: TradeFortress 🏕 on March 27, 2013, 06:08:32 AM
Theymos openly said he thought pirate was a ponzi.

I doubt he thinks BFL is. Most of us do not think it is a scam but rather them just being massively incompetent.






I guess someone needs to define at what point is a incompetent operation considered a scam.
When they stop honoring refunds in USD?

Their published policy is no refunds correct?

People who sent BFL after the fpga fail should have known what they were getting into. I see no reason why they should have a scammers tag at this point. I will be reasonable and listen to evidence however.
Actually, their published policy is no refunds. However, aren't there distance selling regulations? I'm not too sure since I'm not a lawyer and I'm not in the US either.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: TradeFortress 🏕 on March 27, 2013, 06:17:04 AM
Theymos openly said he thought pirate was a ponzi.

I doubt he thinks BFL is. Most of us do not think it is a scam but rather them just being massively incompetent.






I guess someone needs to define at what point is a incompetent operation considered a scam.
When they stop honoring refunds in USD?

Their published policy is no refunds correct?

People who sent BFL after the fpga fail should have known what they were getting into. I see no reason why they should have a scammers tag at this point. I will be reasonable and listen to evidence however.
Actually, their published policy is no refunds. However, aren't there distance selling regulations? I'm not too sure since I'm not a lawyer and I'm not in the US either.

This forum is not here to enforce some countries trade laws.
I'm not talking about the forum enforcing this, but aren't BFL legally obligated to offer refunds / cancels?


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Kelticfox on March 27, 2013, 11:31:17 AM
I'm not talking about the forum enforcing this, but aren't BFL legally obligated to offer refunds / cancels?

In the UK, they are legally obligated to give full refunds (including shipping) for up to 7 days after the customer has received the product (under the Distance Sellers Act).

There is also some debate as to if they can repay less bitcoin because of market volatility. The act states that you are legally entitled to full and immediate refund.
If you pay in bitcoin then technically you should be repaid in bitcoin (pay 25BTC get 25BTC back), but the technicality of this is currently being looked into by the Trading Standards Agency.

I don't know what laws are like in other countries, but at least the UK are very protected by distance selling laws.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: theymos on March 27, 2013, 12:25:15 PM
I don't really follow this stuff, but I've been hearing a lot of positive news about BFL recently, so I tend to think that it's probably not a scam. I'll reevaluate this if they haven't produced anything concrete by their current deadline.

While I might refuse their advertising, giving them a scammer tag is more complicated. I'm not sure what obligations and deadlines preordering implies. They'd probably have to stop all contact for several months for me to give them a scammer tag. I recommend against preordering anything from anyone in the Bitcoin community.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Kelticfox on March 27, 2013, 12:42:22 PM
BFL never got BTC. If anyone will have to pay more BTC to cover the difference it will be Bitpay.

That's never been proven (or disproven).  There are options to retain BTC on Bitpay.

However the legality lies with BFL, not Bitpay.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: 00null on March 27, 2013, 12:53:19 PM
What is their "current deadline"?
Isn't that always "next month"? At least it is since last September...


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Rampion on March 27, 2013, 12:58:14 PM
What is their "current deadline"?
Isn't that always "next month"? At least it is since last September...


Yeah, preorder now and get your units sometime in June, or maybe sooner... That's have been their "preorder" schedule since the end of January.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Kelticfox on March 27, 2013, 01:29:46 PM
They always priced their goods in USD. They never accepted BTC directly (if at all).

They accepted Bitcoin by allowing it to be used as a currency for purchase. If that payment is then converted by a 3rd party, then that's not the consumers responsibility, that's the product supplier.
It could also be further argued that they do accept Bitcoin as they refund in Bitcoin.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Kelticfox on March 27, 2013, 01:33:56 PM
They always priced their goods in USD. They never accepted BTC directly (if at all).

They accepted Bitcoin by allowing it to be used as a currency for purchase. If that payment is then converted by a 3rd party, then that's not the consumers responsibility, that's the product supplier.
It could also be further argued that they do accept Bitcoin as they refund in Bitcoin.

If I went to amazon.com right now and used my credit card (in Thai Baht)  and bought a TV. Then 5 days later no TV and they give me a refund. Lets say in the 5 days Thai Baht goes up 400%. Do I get the Baht back?

I kinda doubt it but I really don't know.

That would be the theory.
Its good in the event of a rise, not so much in the case of a crash :P


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: BadBear on March 27, 2013, 01:37:51 PM
Asking for a scammer tag is a little premature, it isn't obviously a scam, just looks like some incompetent boobs who have very little experience, and at least they have delivered in the past. Handing out scammer tags every time someone doesn't meet a deadline is just going to drive businesses away and may even dissuade people from trying new ideas or funding that new start-up that looks promising.

We should be encouraging businesses and new innovations, not shrieking for scammer tags over customer service issues or terrible PR, or missed deadlines (although I'll admit it is getting a bit ridiculous).   

It would have to be at a point where they've either been unresponsive for a long time, or admitted they can't refund the money and can't deliver before I'd support a scammer tag.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending BFL or their actions, I just don't think a scammer tag is appropriate at the moment.





Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Rampion on March 27, 2013, 01:49:35 PM
I personally agree that a scammer tag is premature, but I think that banning their ads in this forum would be appropriate - at least until they start shipping. I mean, they are pumping in preorders at a crazy rate, we all know that, and a lot of newbies are sucked in by their aggressive advertising strategy. They don't even have a working prototype after months of preorders.

We all know this is a shame (or worst).


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: BadBear on March 27, 2013, 02:43:10 PM
I personally agree that a scammer tag is premature, but I think that banning their ads in this forum would be appropriate - at least until they start shipping. I mean, they are pumping in preorders at a crazy rate, we all know that, and a lot of newbies are sucked in by their aggressive advertising strategy. They don't even have a working prototype after months of preorders.

We all know this is a shame (or worst).


I think we would have to change the rules on the ads auction cuz I don't think BFL violates any of them.

Theymos can choose to not sell ads to whoever he pleases, but it's still covered, even in current auctions.

In order to collect more money for the creation of good forum software, the forum is selling ad space in the area beneath the first post of every topic page.

Ads are allowed to contain any non-annoying HTML/CSS style. No images, JavaScript, or animation (no marquee or blinking). Ads must appear 3 or fewer lines tall in my browser. Ads will be prefixed with "Advertisement:". Ad text may not contain lies, misrepresentation, or inappropriate language. Ads may not link directly to any NSFW page. Ads may be rejected for other reasons.

The one about lies and misrepresentation could also possibly apply, I don't know. 


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: DutchBrat on March 27, 2013, 03:07:24 PM
They always priced their goods in USD. They never accepted BTC directly (if at all).

They accepted Bitcoin by allowing it to be used as a currency for purchase. If that payment is then converted by a 3rd party, then that's not the consumers responsibility, that's the product supplier.
It could also be further argued that they do accept Bitcoin as they refund in Bitcoin.

If I went to amazon.com right now and used my credit card (in Thai Baht)  and bought a TV. Then 5 days later no TV and they give me a refund. Lets say in the 5 days Thai Baht goes up 400%. Do I get the Baht back?

I kinda doubt it but I really don't know.

I don't know either.

If I get some free time today I will call AMEX and ask the inverse question.  (Purchase on my us card in Baht that is refunded)

That is exactly how it works with credit cards.... I live in the UK, if I buy an item in NYC for $ and it breaks and I get a refund under my insurance I get the $ value back.... if the has moved in my favour then it is my gain, else it is my loss.... You buy something in $ so you get refunded in $.... simple as that


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: John (John K.) on March 27, 2013, 03:18:31 PM
They always priced their goods in USD. They never accepted BTC directly (if at all).

They accepted Bitcoin by allowing it to be used as a currency for purchase. If that payment is then converted by a 3rd party, then that's not the consumers responsibility, that's the product supplier.
It could also be further argued that they do accept Bitcoin as they refund in Bitcoin.

If I went to amazon.com right now and used my credit card (in Thai Baht)  and bought a TV. Then 5 days later no TV and they give me a refund. Lets say in the 5 days Thai Baht goes up 400%. Do I get the Baht back?

I kinda doubt it but I really don't know.

I don't know either.

If I get some free time today I will call AMEX and ask the inverse question.  (Purchase on my us card in Baht that is refunded)

That is exactly how it works with credit cards.... I live in the UK, if I buy an item in NYC for $ and it breaks and I get a refund under my insurance I get the $ value back.... if the has moved in my favour then it is my gain, else it is my loss.... You buy something in $ so you get refunded in $.... simple as that
Same here - I bought some stuff on ebay via Paypal some time ago and requested a refund when it didn't reach me. I was refunded a lower amount of money due to the difference in USD/local currency exchange rate too.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Isokivi on March 27, 2013, 03:18:41 PM
I guess someone needs to define at what point is a incompetent operation considered a scam.
Right about the time when they nolonger process refunds or accept chargebackable payments ?
[edit] This talk of btc refunds is absurd, fiat refunds are what you should expect.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on March 27, 2013, 06:22:54 PM
I guess someone needs to define at what point is a incompetent operation considered a scam.
Right about the time when they nolonger process refunds or accept chargebackable payments ?
[edit] This talk of btc refunds is absurd, fiat refunds are what you should expect.

If I buy something from you in BTC and return it as defective, what currency will you give me a refund in?

Or, if I buy something that cost one egg-laying hen, and the exchange rate depreciated 50%, how do I get half an egg-laying hen refunded if my something is defected?


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Isokivi on March 27, 2013, 06:48:04 PM
If I buy something from you in BTC and return it as defective, what currency will you give me a refund in?
In the currency you paid, but not the same amount, exchange rate fluctuations apply. I first and foremost offer to re-ship the ordered item and to date this has been fine with my customers.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Isokivi on March 28, 2013, 03:46:54 PM

In BFL's case that currency was BTC.

And you actually have a product to send them.  Not a ranting bully of a COO who promises next week when there are a dozen milestones before shipping still to go.
True, but in my understanding most people who have been ranting about btc refunds from BFL work under the assumption they get the same amount of coin back.

I did briefly consider pursuing gold versions of my goods with pre-order btc. I didn't like the notion nor the position I would of have been putting myself in and quickly dismissed it.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: smoothie on March 29, 2013, 02:47:57 AM
@Theymos and MODs,

The people have spoken on their thoughts on IF BFL is a scam:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155730.0


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Syke on March 29, 2013, 03:27:47 AM
I don't really follow this stuff, but I've been hearing a lot of positive news about BFL recently, so I tend to think that it's probably not a scam. I'll reevaluate this if they haven't produced anything concrete by their current deadline.

https://products.butterflylabs.com/featured-products/60gh-bitcoin-miner.html
Quote
initial shipping scheduled for the last half of March 2013.

I expect to not see a single more BFL ad as of 4/1.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: pyra-proxy on March 29, 2013, 03:57:57 AM
If I buy something from you in BTC and return it as defective, what currency will you give me a refund in?
In the currency you paid, but not the same amount, exchange rate fluctuations apply. I first and foremost offer to re-ship the ordered item and to date this has been fine with my customers.

In BFL's case that currency was BTC.

And you actually have a product to send them.  Not a ranting bully of a COO who promises next week when there are a dozen milestones before shipping still to go.

In real life this is how it works, I have friends who use chinese credit cards on occasion to buy goods in the us of a and when they need to get a refund not only do they get hit with a second currency exchange fee but they also get the short end of the stick if currency exchange rates did not move in their favor.....   why is bfl/bitcoin any different?  Their goods are sold in the US and priced in US $ and they happen to offer a payment gateway interface with bit pay that allows you to provide US $ value via a bitcoin transfer much the same as a chinese national paying at a US of A mall with chinese rmb through the visa/MasterCard gateway for goods sold in the US of A and priced in US $.......


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Kelticfox on March 29, 2013, 09:47:15 AM
Forums are down for 'updating', but the twitter feed (run by Grnbrg, not BFL) shows some worrying news..... https://twitter.com/BFL_News
Chips not running as expected on power, heating issues, will ship multiply units if they need to but they will deliver promised hash rate.


So annouce bad news, then shut down forum for updating.... seems legit.


Anyone else think that the "BFL_Josh - March 28th update - Units hashing, potential power issue, will ship promised hash rate regardless." is just to mitigate cancellations?


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Rawted on March 30, 2013, 01:11:25 AM
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content/123-bfl-offers-1000-btc-charity-if-they-miss-their-power-targets.html


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Xian01 on March 30, 2013, 10:52:10 AM
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content/123-bfl-offers-1000-btc-charity-if-they-miss-their-power-targets.html

Could you screen shot that?

I'm not going to expose my computer to that site.

http://i.imgur.com/Sfc1klu.png


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Entropy-uc on March 30, 2013, 10:26:51 PM
Thank you.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Pharaoh on April 01, 2013, 03:57:28 AM
Is there a written statement that explains what the criteria is for being given the scammer tag? BFL was clearly lying in September/October when they were telling the community shipping dates and they didn't even have a finalized design, let alone a working prototype. I believe BFL should get a scammer tag because they took peoples money while they lied about  shipping dates they knew they had no chance of meeting. If/when they actually ship an ASIC product then they can have the scammer tag removed.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: JordanL on April 01, 2013, 05:39:02 AM
I don't really follow this stuff, but I've been hearing a lot of positive news about BFL recently, so I tend to think that it's probably not a scam. I'll reevaluate this if they haven't produced anything concrete by their current deadline.

While I might refuse their advertising, giving them a scammer tag is more complicated. I'm not sure what obligations and deadlines preordering implies. They'd probably have to stop all contact for several months for me to give them a scammer tag. I recommend against preordering anything from anyone in the Bitcoin community.


This is a reasonable policy, for what my opinion's worth.

I don't have much faith in BFL, but until there is evidence of criminal wrongdoing, a scammer tag is premature.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: JordanL on April 01, 2013, 05:54:17 AM
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/luke-jr/118-my-first-asics.html


Seems they have begun shipping something, at least.


Or is it an April fool's joke?


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on April 01, 2013, 07:02:00 AM
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/luke-jr/118-my-first-asics.html


Seems they have begun shipping something, at least.


Or is it an April fool's joke?

For Luke to get that unit, they would have had to ship it out last week.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Syke on April 01, 2013, 08:56:58 AM
I don't really follow this stuff, but I've been hearing a lot of positive news about BFL recently, so I tend to think that it's probably not a scam. I'll reevaluate this if they haven't produced anything concrete by their current deadline.

https://products.butterflylabs.com/featured-products/60gh-bitcoin-miner.html
Quote
initial shipping scheduled for the last half of March 2013.

I expect to not see a single more BFL ad as of 4/1.

Times up, theymos. Ban BFL ads and tag BFL/Inaba with scammer tags. They've missed far too many "deadlines".


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Rawted on April 01, 2013, 10:13:46 AM
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/luke-jr/118-my-first-asics.html


Seems they have begun shipping something, at least.


Or is it an April fool's joke?

For Luke to get that unit, they would have had to ship it out last week.
He's at their factory working on bfgminer. If you notice his screenshots are in the exact same place as the video of the bfl's 'hashing' the other day.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Syke on April 02, 2013, 06:49:35 PM
I don't really follow this stuff, but I've been hearing a lot of positive news about BFL recently, so I tend to think that it's probably not a scam. I'll reevaluate this if they haven't produced anything concrete by their current deadline.

While I might refuse their advertising, giving them a scammer tag is more complicated. I'm not sure what obligations and deadlines preordering implies. They'd probably have to stop all contact for several months for me to give them a scammer tag. I recommend against preordering anything from anyone in the Bitcoin community.

Theymos, when are you tagging BFL/Inaba with scammer tags? They are still advertising a shipping date that has passed, for like the 6th time. Enough is enough.

https://products.butterflylabs.com/featured-products/60gh-bitcoin-miner.html
Quote
initial shipping scheduled for the last half of March 2013.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: MrTeal on April 02, 2013, 10:16:54 PM
You have it mixed up.  At the beginning, BFL required transactions be done in BTC.  Therefore someone who bought using bitcoin because that is what they insisted upon should be given a refund in BTC.

Later orders where Bitcoin was an option alongside US$ are a different matter, I agree.

That's not exactly true. From the start you could pay with BTC, or with a bank wire to their US bank.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: Syke on April 03, 2013, 03:59:01 AM
BFL ad on bitcointalk.org

Quote
1,500 GH/s ASIC miner  -  BFL MiniRig SC  -  $29k  -  butterflylabs.com

Actual price on BFL website:

Quote
$29,899.00

$29,899 is not $29k. More BFL deception. Stop the ads Theymos.


Title: Re: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)
Post by: JordanL on April 03, 2013, 04:33:02 AM
BFL ad on bitcointalk.org

Quote
1,500 GH/s ASIC miner  -  BFL MiniRig SC  -  $29k  -  butterflylabs.com

Actual price on BFL website:

Quote
$29,899.00

$29,899 is not $29k. More BFL deception. Stop the ads Theymos.

haha, just when I thought it couldn't get any worse.