Bitcoin Forum

I'm talking about the money kind of bitcoin.

Some situations where the bitcoin status of being a private property or not could arise:

> A mistakenly sends bitcoins to B, and A finds out who B is.
> A mistakenly shows his private keys to B (by just saying it), and A finds out who B is.
> B executes a replay attack on A.
> B, by an practical impossible luck, creates a private key that had founds that belonged to A already.
> B sends money to A (and A sends "something" or some information to B). Then, we don't know why, everyone decides to change their Bitcoin rules and the result is that A can't get to spend his money in the new version.

I started an article (here (https://github.com/swfsql/btc-nao-eh-propriedade-privada/blob/eng/src.md)) trying to defend the idea that bitcoin is not private property, therefore all of the examples above couldn't be classified as theft or robbery (of private property).

What do you think?

By possessing bitcoin,you get the right to hold,sell,spend or let it lay idle in your wallet>Once you lose it anyhow you also lose the right to claim its ownership

I believe it's not private property. Considering that it's all based on private keys, you can take that privkey and steal the funds. However, if you only have the private key and you don't use Bitcoin is just text. The only thing is that it's copyrighted, which obviously is not.

I know this has been discussed before, and hasn't it been agreed that
holding the private key is your only real ownership?    

The coins, if they are worth any fiat currency, all that is just some abstract ideas...  
and the only thing you really have physical control of is the fact you have the password to decrypt that part of the transaction chain.

I think this is like contemplating infinity, whereby if you do it too much you will go insane. 

This is in the legal section, and I don't think most countries' law has caught up to where cryptocurrency is, i.e., whether it's money or an asset.  This is a damn good question that governments will have to think about and answer.  It's also good that OP's example is asymptotically impossible and won't actually ever have to be dealt with.

Each country, state, jurisdiction, etc have their own ways of classifying bitcoin.  Check with yours and see what you find.  Regardless of your local laws, having the private key to your bitcoin is essentially owning property. Good question.

i just know that bitcoinis the property of the person who is holding it, if i have 10 bitcoins, i am the owner of 10 bitcoins and these 10 bitcoins are my property and no one has the right to take it from me, and i have the full right to use it, hold it or donate it no one has any concern with it.

bitcoin is the property of those people who are owning it, if i have 30 bitcoins in my wallet so i am the owner of 30 bitcoins.

While doing any type of calculation, you should have to keep in mind that bitcoin is a currency and its rules in finance are the same as other currency, so you will not find any difficulty while deciding anything for that.

i think other currencies are the property of the state and government has the right to take it from you if they need so, the other thing is that you cannot carry fiat currency out of our country without government permission or paying tax on it. while bitcoin is some thing else, there is no doubt that bitcoin is a currency but the number of bitcoins you have is your property and no one has the right to take it away from you. and you have also the right to take it any where without any restriction.

Yes, bitcoin is private property and anyone who takes my coins is a thief. Because the probability of someone accidentally generating my private keys is zero.

No in the state of capitalist, we say that we are the owners of the money which we earn by our hard work, and it is also the rule of every religion of the world from the beginning of the world, so according to that we have full right over our money which we get through our hard work.

I dont really know if its a private property. But for me its a private property because you can keep it as long as you can. You can spend it and no one will get angry about that because its yours. I thinking of bitcoin like its a physical money that you can keep or spend.

Remember, Bitcoin technically doesn't sit or move, what does move is the private bitcoin address, so all you technically own is that address, so if its in your control, you own it, i guess.

A court will be pragmatic and look past this technicality. A bitcoin is a type of property -- a general intangible. Like a right to something.

Op's questions is something different than simply finding out if bitcoin is more a currency or rather a commodity or maybe something entirely new.

Personally, I don't think Op's train of thought is necessarily correct. I like to think that bitcoin IS my own private property and no one should have access to it.

That is why exploring possibilities of paradoxical situations like 2 users having the same private key or 2 addresses being identical is not productive.

I think this topic requires a long open debate and there should be some consensus on how such an issue be tackled.We need some guidelines set by bitcoin community

yes it is right to say, so it is a private property, and the government of any stare or any other organization or department or any other person is not the owner of bitcoin and every one the owner of bitcoin which he has.

I get your point. But I'm not sure we should use the word "right" as a "positive right", as some people (governments) could enforce this right (and be aggressive toward some people).

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I have one more example that could actually arise in reality:

> B sends money to A (and A sends "something" or some information to B). Then, we don't know why, everyone decides to change their Bitcoin rules and the result is that A can't get to spend his money in the new version.

So does A have a right to force other participants to use his arbitrary version of the Bitcoin, in order to be able to spend his money? I mean, could his justification of "I have the right to spend those bitcoins" be used while he attacks other people when trying to force them to change their stuff on their computers? I'm thinking about governments behavior and analogous justifications. Since I believe that bitcoins aren't priv. prop., that kind of justification is wrong.

yes it is a fact that bitcoin is the property of the those people who are owning it,  it is not just like the fiat currency which is the property of the state and the  private property of the people.

I am confused on what you are trying to say.  Private property as to ownership?  If it is that's the case, do you think we will be able to experience bitcoin today?  If they keep it to their self and just sell like only a 10% of bitcoin would it become a hit!  I do not think so.

If we keep it then we are the owner and it will become private property since you do not want other people to know your address and the bitcoin you have.

It is not a private property since we are able to hold, sell, buy, earn, and invest them.  If it is a private property then it was regulated by a company or some people and the supply or the bitcoin would be really low.  And its price is truly so high because it was being regulated by a company.  They got hold of the price of it.  Its price is stable.  Maybe if it was a private property only some people have the capacity to have a bitcoin.

but to me bitcoin is a private property, because every one has the right to hold it for how long time he wan to. there is no time frame for holding bitcoin, and the second is that ever one has the right to use bitcoin according to their own choice.

yes i am agree with you, it is a  fact that bitcoin is a private property because the government has no concern with it  and it is not under the influence of any start or government, actually it is the property of those people who are owning it, if i have 10 bitcoins then the 10 bitcoins are my property, so every one is the owner of the peroperty who is own it.

Still confuse on private property thing.  But yes, you do have a point.  It is not government owned so it was a private property just like companies who were not owned by the government.  Since we have some of bitcoins then we are the owners and it become a private property because government do not have any cut on it like having a tax on it. 

None of the government own it so we call it as our private property but in a capitalist system of society the fiat is also considered as our private property and the land we own is also considered as our private property because we do hard work for it to earn that and make that for our self.

here in our country when you are buying a piece of land and when going to register it on your name there you can see these world that, "First this land is the property of Allah and then the Government of XYZ and after that you are the owner of that that" so it mean that if our government need that land they can take it from me, but i think in case of bitcoin no one have the right to take your bitcoin from you. therefore i can say that bitcoin is a private property.

in our country when you are going to buy a piece of land it is clearly mentioned in it that this land is the property Allah Almighty and then this the property of Government of Pakistan and after that you are the owner of this land, it means that if the country need for the place you are owning the govt has the right to take it from you.

ye bitcoin is a private property and not the property of one person.

yes bitcoin is a private property no doubt a bout this .

It is true that everything on the earth belong to God and have right on all the universe. But it is injustice that your government also claim an ownership on your land. If you spend your money to buy that then your government do not have any right to take it.

yes there is no doubt about this that bitcoin is a private property

I think he didn't mean to ask who the owner would be if possession is concerned.I think he meant to ask what would be the case in case of someone receiving the coins mistakenly 

yes bitcoin is a private property and any one who hold bitcoin is the owner of these bitcoins.

yes bitcoin is a private property ans it is not the property of a state or a forum or of a single person, it is the property of the person who is really owing it, if you have 40 bitcoins then you are the owner of 40 Bitcoin and it is really your own property.

yes there is no doubt about this that bitcoin is a private currency, it does not belong to any group or state but it is a private currency of the person who is owning it.

i think if you receive the bitcoin mistakenly  then it is your moral duty to return it it do not belong to you and is not your property, therefore it is your duty to return the bitcoin to the address you received the bitcoins from.

yes that is a fact and i think no government can own it as it is not a centralize currency, bitcoin is a decentralize currency and not a single country can claim and that is the reason that we consider it as our own private currency.

My opinion is that bitcoins are private property and if someone obtains your private key and takes your bitcoins without permission, they are stealing. The problem is getting the authorities to prosecute.

I would say Bitcoin is a private property on a public ledger called block chain which is open to anyone for auditing, it is one of the best form of money a person can have, a revolution that is changing how finance worked for the past 4000+ years.

You are right but no one is able to give any punishment to that person because the governments have not approved bitcoin and the other point is that bitcoin is anonymous currency and no one know the owner of addresses.

Bitcoin is a smart property if you want an explanation what smart property is all about read it here (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Smart_Property) ,if you own the private key of a particular address then it means it is your private property as no one can take over your account unless and until you reveal the password.

yes government will not take any action for stealing the private key but i think it is also not good morally and stealing private key of a person is not feeling good.

yes bitcoin is really a private property it do not belong to any any and no one has the right to take it from you and it only belong to you, therefore it is really a private property not of the any state or government.

yes bitcoin is  a private property and there is no doubt about this, as not a group or forum or any other government can claim bitcoins their own property therefore it is the property of those people who are owning it.

yes that is a fact that every own has the right to use their bitcoin according to their own wishes and there is no restriction on it, therefore we can say that bitcoin is a private property and it is also a private currency.

i think yes bitcoin is a private currency, as every one is the owner of such bitcoin which he has in his wallet, and he has fully right to use it according to his own well and no one has the right to take it from you, therefore it is a private currency and long belong to any government or a group.

It is quite irrelevant who sends bitcoins to whom and  claims to have his own bitcoins when it comes to privacy. When you buy bitcoins you reserve the right to send it or keep it as long as you want. You have either bought it or earned it by offering some kind of services and till bitcoin vanishes it will be regarded as a private property.

No, bitcoin is not private property since users are not granted any property rights
from the Bitcoin blockchain or any other related system, such as the developers.
People who regard bitcoin as a private property have no understanding of law or
Bitcoin in general.

If a users of Bitcoin has purchased bitcoin, it does not grant the buyer any rights.
If a users of Bitcoin has private key control of bitcoin, it does not grant the controller any rights.
If a user participates within the Bitcoin network, it is done at their own risk and without any guarantees.

Legal and technical ownership or possession of bitcoin within the Bitcoin network does not exist.
You can not own a ledger entry within a decentralized blockchain.

Until a government creates a law that defines what rights Bitcoin users have, they have none.

If we take definition of private property from wiki:

Private property is a legal designation for the ownership of property by non-governmental legal entities.[1] Private property is distinguishable from public property, which is owned by a state entity; and from collective (or cooperative) property, which is owned by a group of non-governmental entities.[2][3] Private property is further distinguished from personal property, which refers to property for personal use and consumption. Private property is a legal concept defined and enforced by a country's political system.

Well we can be sure that bitcoin falls under non-governmental, however I I think that bitcoin is private property in countries where it's recognized as any form of currency (Like in US)

The U.S. Treasury classified bitcoin as a convertible decentralized virtual currency in 2013.[46] A Magistrate Judge of a Texas U.S. District Court classified bitcoin as a currency

So if bitcoin is not classified as private property in countries like that, does that mean that money is not private property too ?

Bitcoin is only classified as such in the US for taxation purposes.
The US does not grant bitcoin users any property rights or anything beyond.
That would be impossible without direct regulation of the blockchain.
In order for bitcoin to be a property, it would need legal control over the blockchain.

Money is not normally private property, it is owned and controlled by the government's treasuries.
Most governments retain all rights of the money that is attributable to you, so there is no true ownership.
They allow you to hold and use it as legal tender only for the purpose of commerce.
They reserve all rights and can take it away from you depending on the circumstances.

Unless the money you are referring to is old paper/coin collectibles, you do not have the same
legal property rights as like holding land property.

What you are telling is possible only with fiat currency in some points but in bitcoins once sent you cannot find who is the receiver with the wallet address. Bitcoin is a private property what you are owning.

And it is a theft if you are taking anything from anyone with out their permission. but mistakenly sent is not theft and if you can find the receiver then you can ask him and if he is willing to give is ok if not you can do nothing

You are talking ignorant nonsense garbage just to meet your daily sig spam quota.

Legal private property does not exist in Bitcoin, that is contrary to the system's design.
Legal theft does not exist in Bitcoin, that is contrary to the system's design.

If it was so, then Bitcoin has failed in it original design and purpose and would be currently regulated.

         The issue of property is particularly serious but as all legal issues so this falls under the legislation of any country. As an example I bring that in countries - members of European Union sellers of bitcoin are not obliged to pay VAT after the transaction of  buying and selling bitcoins because according the EU legislation the bitcoin is not considered currency because is not issued by credit institutions (fiat money). So as regards the ownership status how someone can prove it knowing that according its design is decentralized and irreversible?

Of course bitcoin is considered private property.  I think some of the previous posters are getting hung up on the idea of whether bitcoin can be used as a form of currency in various jurisdictions as their definition of private property.  Whether it meets that definition or not, it would still be considered private property.  In most jurisdictions it would be considered a form of intangible asset.  Intangible assets such as patents and copyrights aren't based on a physical paper granting it to a specific holder, but rather the right to enforce a right of ownership whether they physically have a physical certificate or not.  A previous poster incoherently rambled on about rights to bitcoin and how the blockchain din't grant rights etc however I think he was missing the point.  Holders have enforced their rights to ownership of bitcoin already.  One such example is the vast majority of the holders of bitcoin involved in the Mt. Gox collapse have successfully shown through the bankruptcy proceedings that they have a property interest in their stolen bitcoins.  Whether they're ever returned to them is yet to be determined, however they do have a property interest in the bitcoins that were stolen.  Since bitcoin is a fungible item they are not entitled (nor would they care) that the specific coins that were initially added to their account be returned, but they are entitled to the amount that was in the account.       
Even if a bitcoin holder by some chance was a citizen of a country which for some reason didn't consider bitcoin a property asset, they would be still be considered a property interest in a jurisdiction where it was.  (If there is a country where this exists, please enlighten me, and I am not referring to where a country has determined that bitcoin is a medium of exchange or currency, but rather an intangible property asset.)  An analogy would be that of business-method patents.  Most business-method patents are not recognized in the EU yet a EU citizen can still hold such a patent and have it enforced in a jurisdiction here it is recognized such as the US.   In short, Bitcoin is considered private property.

I assume you are referring to me as I am the only poster who has stated that
Bitcoin does not grant any rights to users. I would refer you to intangible property
such as virtual goods and you will see the law is not as clear as you are inferring it to be.
It is an extremely complicated issue that some of the best lawyers can not yet unravel.

What you have failed to understand and may be due to my "incoherent rambling" is that
Bitcoin was designed in a manner so that no one can legally own bitcoins. That is how the
system was technically designed and the reason behind it being currently unregulatable.
You have skipped over your legal explanation of that aspect of the system, and jumped to
conclude it must be a private property because people have litigated it as such within a few
jurisdictions where the defendant was an exchange or an unlicensed money transmitter or etc.



What you have failed to add is that Mt.Gox was a company and regulated exchange that performed
transactions with banking institutions. Because of that single aspect, users who held their coins in Mt.Gox
could find them liable for their losses, whether they are a legal property or not. That issue is irrelevant.
These bitcoin users only had any rights which could be enforced upon in a Court, due to Mt.Gox agreeing
and thus legally carrying responsibility for those user's coins. Without a thirdparty failure or theft, there are
no rights or an entity to enforce against.

Legal question: If your coins are stolen from your sole controlled address, can you sue the devs
to get them to reverse the stolen private property back into your possession? Are they legally obligated
to reverse thefts of private property coins on the blockchain?

Its seems you would argue yes. Are you aware the devs are voluntary and provide no guarantees?
Are you aware that by participating within the Bitcoin network, you have waived any rights or claims?

It seems you want your cake and to eat it too. We can't have an unregulated Bitcoin blockchain and also
have a private property that carries all the rights that follows. One must supplant the other.
Until a government gets regulative controls within the Bitcoin network there are no enforceable rights.



It is clear from this statement that you don't really understand the difference between bitcoin being
held in your sole control within the blockchain and when you have transferred your control to another
party (banks/exchanges). Bitcoin users have no rights unless they defer their control to regulated
financial institutions. Bitcoin users rights then do not come from the protocol itself, but from the
exchange's legal obligation to their "customers".

Bitcoin can not be property unless you transfer that bitcoin to a thirdparty storage system
who is obligated to ensure that properties safety. If they fail, you sue them, since there is no
one else to enforce your "rights" upon.

When you argue a bitcoin is a private property, you are ignoring why governments are taking a
backseat to that aspect and also that the blockchain was designed to be immutable, public, free to use,
use at your own risk, experimental system that is based on your own ability to protect your private keys.
Now you want to have rights so that you may enforce upon others due to your own incompetence.

Edit: If you want user's rights or consumer protections, then Bitcoin is not for you.
Becareful what you wish for, because I'm not sure you know what your desire will ultimately lead to.

Firstly, I think it is absolutely impossible to generate the same key that there already is. Secondly, as for Bitcoin being property, I suppose it depends on our attitude to it and legal status. We can behave with bitcoin as if it was our toy or car or anything else, or can think of it as of a currency. Af for legal status, in Venezuela Bitcoin is officially property.

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I don't think you can call it a private property. Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency which means that it is a digital based currency. Maybe if you have bitcoin then you decided to convert it and have it as a paper money in your wallet. You may call it as "private property" as soon as you possessed it. You may sell it, trade it, invest it and perform transactions using bitcoin, in other words,  you have control over it but it is not as private as you may want it to be.

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The coins, on the off chance that they are justified regardless of any fiat cash, all that is quite recently some theoretical thoughts...
what's more, the main thing you truly have physical control of is the reality you have the watchword to decode that piece of the exchange chain. Each nation, state, purview, and so forth have their own specific manners of characterizing bitcoin. Check with yours and see what you find. Anyhow your region laws, having the private key to your bitcoin is basically owning assets.

I'm not considering bitcoin is a private property. Bitcoin is only a property that cannot taken away. As long as you have your bitcoin and the private key you can use it to transact or safely  to pass person to person.

Bitcoin is not property. Many countries recognize it tender but this is not quite true because the coin holders is not possible to spend bitcoin directly. It seems to me that bitcoin is more similar to traveler's checks which are to serve needs to be changed in the Bank for Fiat.

Well, in my country bitcoin is not yet recognized as money or a currency. Bitcoin does not have legal tender. It is actually considered as property - just like labor. I guess it would depend on the jurisdiction or law of your country. It may be possible for other countries to have different recognitions on bitcoin or crypto. If this were the case, then theft or robbery may apply differently as well. The current recognition of bitcoin in my country may not constitute to theft or robbery as well.

I feel like if you own it and you're recorded in the ledger, shouldn't a mediator be able to look at the ledger and return it to you?

This is wishful thinking of course lol. always wondered where bitcoin goes if you send it tot he wrong address

no bitcoin is not a private property by the its not owned by anyone its cryptocurrency network

actually i'm new to this forum and i have no bit coins. but i'm trying to earn bit coins. my friends they all properties sell and buy a more bit coins. they are won of bit coins. so then i get inspired about this i want to won some more bit coins in my life and get rich. really bit coin has great demand present its price going to up.i wish to every one buy at least one it coin in their life.

Any private property shall have the assessed value in Fiat. If the state does not recognize the cryptocurrency market then they can not accept the price. Therefore, they cannot perform fully their duties to protect private property rights. The state does not recognize bitcoin because they are afraid that it can undermine the foundations of the state. I think that we will long to live in uncertainty.

While bitcoin is off the legal field in your country and you don't have any documents that could prove your property rights it hardly can be called private property

i think yes bitcoin is a personal property, because that is your money only digitalized, so no one can get them from you without your consent.

If you have a certain amount of Fiat. How can you prove that is your money? You don't have the invoice that you received as payment of their labor banknotes with defined rooms. So Fiat and bitcoin are in the same conditions. It seems to me that bitcoin will be very difficult in court to recognize the property because no documents support it is not. Moreover volatility of bitcoin it is impossible to establish the cost of damage.

Yes , Bitcoins are a private property. Because when in my wallet account 1 Bitcoin . so I think , l am the owner of the 1 Bitcoins.

When you own bitcoin, its your own private property. And we all know that having bitcoin is like having our own bank. How can someone knows who own Bitcoin A when there's no name associated with it?

And the situation you have put is flawed because as I have said, there is no name association so if hard to know who is the owner of A or B. And even those nodes are not private property of anyone.

They can decide to just drop out of the nodes without notifying others. And bitcoin is decentralize correct? So that alone shows the bitcoin is not a private property of anyone except you.

If btc as a whole is to be considered than it is not a private property. But if you do own some units of it then it becomes your own property, as you are the owner of that much units. Well also the country you stay in needs to consider it as a legal tender first so that you can make use of the cypto currency and pass it or exchange against the various services provided for btc.

 I think it is your private property until and unless you own it .
The private keys are suggested to keep very protected and doesn't have to be shared to anyone because of the same reason because if you have it its completely yours and the funds are also completely yours implying that it is your " private property".  But once you loose it to someone you are most likely to loose everything you have in your wallet and that is no longer your private property and you have no right to claim that afterwards for any reason.

Bitcoin is a private property until it is in your wallet , doesn't matter whether u spent it or just let it stay in the wallet. Once your money is not in your wallet its not your property anymore. It will belong to the person who receives it and you cannot do anything about it.

Well if you hold it I guess it's yours, like with the real money. Once you spend it or give it away it's not yours

This is the beauty of having a bitcoin in your own wallet which if its stored in your wallet then no one could ever get it from you as long they don't know the keys which would access the wallet then it is still safe. It is considered as private property and cant be bruteforce a wallet since they would really need quantum computers to break hashes that's why theres no need to worry.

Probably if your bitcoins are stolen (because of your fault or negligence), it seems to me that this can not be classified as robbery, because there is no legal basis for this, and responsibility for this will be borne only by you

I think what you have shared is not about private ownership but more on securities and safety of private keys on our accounts with stealing issues. For me if you say private property is something that you own like house and cars in which in bitcoin ownership if the coins are in your wallet then you own it privately but same with other things it can be stolen.

It doesn't matter how long the private key is, what matters is how much crypto currency in it that could send to "B". But as long as there is a transaction between " A" and "B" it can be traced by transaction History, but, once it is done the owner of the currency is recently the Holder or the Receiver. If is stolen he can pass it again to another not just one time but many times as long as the transaction would be more complicated and untraceable.

I think your question wholly depends on how our respective laws define theft and robbery. Nonetheless, as per our State law, I think Bitcoin is a private property because private property, as defined under our code is "all things which are or may be the object of appropriation". As you may have noticed, our law did not distinguish as to what property shall fall as a private property. Thus, Bitcoin is a private property for all intents and purposes. This being the case, if someone steals Bitcoin from you, the former may be held criminally liable either for theft or robbery.

WTF? so now if (A) sends out BTC to (B) he can jump the poor (B) just because she wasn't wearing a jump-proof pants? the late founder R.I.P Satoshi made the mining like a random lottery ticket draw, miners are too busy with finding blocks and they don't really want to mess with 12.5BTC potentially to be earned by changing-reversing transactions.
Do we have more private property than pussies? lol I know that I promised not to use that word again, but this is a necessary evil. they're extremely private, yet people grab and jump on them without permission.

Like any other currencies you own the coin as long as you have it, once you sell it or traded it for something else then you don't own the property anymore. Since you are not getting the coin from no where like for bitcoin you are owning a coin from buying or mining  or as a payment for a service you made then it can be classified as theft if someone take it from you without permission.

If it is not owned by the government it is a private property for your information. There is really no argument here as the Bitcoin you earn is yours and therefore it is a private property anything that you mistakenly send no matter how much it is you have the right to retrieve it as it is yours and "B" has no right to spend or use it.

yes bitcoins are private property else you dont have the right to hold them. you can choose to either keep, sell or trade with it. it your choice

Everyone has the right to dispose of their private property. Who can forbid you to transfer the right to dispose of his property to another person? Since the contract notarized is not necessary that your translation may be a voluntary act of transfer of ownership. You can not demand the return of wrongly listed bitcoins.

Yes it can be private like you add private key in the hard wallet that you only know.The only problem here when stocking your bitcoin is the volatile price but if you ask me about the volatile price now is not a problem because it will continue to grow little by little and if its going down i think 3% only in a month then it will grow again

I understand your illustration but those acts are like voluntarily passing up bitcoin into another point since we can able to possess bitcoin in our own wallet then its considered private property unless if its really mean to be passed on because of such transactions and come to think that generating a key wont really able give you the chance on accessing someones wallet. Therefore its an impossible stuff. The problem here is that if someone get your property (bitcoin)  you cant take it back since transaction and irreversible and i dont think if B would recieve that money he would decide to give it back.

I agree but it also depends on your respective laws in the country you reside on. Here in the Philippines, my colleague interviewed the lawyer at our BSP (Central Bank) and discussed about bitcoin's legitimacy. The lawyer said that bitcoin being a digitalized currency, it needs to be taxed if you got it from mining since it falls under the category of "other income". Also, bitcoin is being regarded here as 'property' and not as currency, thus it is not subjected to legal tender or for payment of debt. Though even if it was categorized by  the BSP, in practice we still treat it as an alternative currency for the payment of our obligations or for investment.

It seems to me that this is a bad lawyer. What it proves is that bitcoin is a currency? What are the signs of currency right now is bitcoin does except the name. How can he indicate its real value. The value of any currency is based on the indicators of the interbank rate. Where does he find these figures? It seems to me that counsel for the government.

For me, BTC is the private property. If I have 10 BTC in my wallet then I am the owner of these coins and no one have the permission to access them except me.

Yes, bitcoin is the private property. It is not like the other currency, which is the property of the state and government. So it is the property of those people who are owed it.

Also in private property IRL, you can charge someone who is trespassing on that property. In our case,you cant charge someone who got access on your account. As op stated it is A's fault if B accessed A. Because even if we are showing our address to different sites, it is not supposed to be hacked easily, we could even see transaction of particular address. The same case with all other wallets.

Private property implies what is owned and accessible only to an individual and with this we can say that bitcoin is private property.

In order to be eligible for a private property you should be able to prove it. How can you prove that bitcoin account belongs to you? Bitcoin is more like public property. Any person who has the access code can dispose of the bitcoins. Fiat, for example, is not the private property of the citizens. It is the property of the state. You only have the right to dispose of it.

I'm sure it's not public, however I don't have any legal justify to argue Bitcoin isn't public... Bitcoin is surely private property, if someone takes your code and access your money it's theft. The problem is that there isn't guarantees on the law about it, for the local laws Bitcoin doesn't exist...

But as I know countries want Bitcoin holders to declare their coins as asset, paying annual tax and if they want it they must offer a guarantee back, no?

For me bitcoin is our private property that's why we called it a decentralized nobody can detect our transaction and no third party will allow.Maybe that is your mistake that somebody get your code.But there are some hackers or scammer who wants to get our coins and we need to be careful of that.

You are wrong.We can own,organize our bitcoins as we want,we can get profit from this and this is not illegal,it means that bitcoin is private property.In my country,This is a legal point of view.The combination of these  (ownership,profitability,usage)concepts are the  determinant of property.this is a part of economical-social life and bitcoin is persmisible in economical relations,this is the reason why i think that BTC is a private property.All prerequisites are satisfied to use general,legal norms and to  be considered as private property.

In my opinion bitcoin is private property due to its decentralized and no third party allow to transact our own transactions or a hackers that catch it up.I am sure that this is not public its for own safety and security why bitcoin is private property.

Bitcoin exchange transactions combines both private and public. the entire bitcoin transactions are done in the form of “address”. The “address” seems to be public but inside the address the value of bitcoin is private.

Bitcoin in your wallet is your private property until you have your wallet private key. Being decentralize, you don't have any legal right on your BTC if you lost your private key and being transferable easily you can't really claim it after making a transaction.  It is the game of the possession, whom so ever have the private key, have the possession and is the real owner.

I agree. In our laws, possession is not tantamount to ownership but in this situation lies the exception.

As you ought to know, Bitcoin exists online. All incidents that relate to it depends on who possesses it. Say for instance in your given example, when someone mistakenly transmits his Bitcoins to another, that another already owns it. You may argue in this instance that it is still your private property but you will be gratifying yourself with too much workload trying to prove such. You should know by now how heavily encrypted all data are in the world of cryptos.

But, if your Bitcoins is already stored in your wallet, it is already a private property. This will then be a battle of evidence to prove ownership.

No, I think Bitcoin is just data being shifted around. Just like a virus and worm. There is no respect but the amount of respect and attention you put into it. Bitcoin is a form of currency but something that is up in the air and not physical monies that can be spent in a bar or hotel or in a grocery store. It is like putting value on respect itself, when the physical currency that is spent in everyday life is (also respected). Nowadays, we have to move into the computer age and are still ill-equipped to handle just the respect itself. It's not currency till the data is paid for and used as a useful tool in everyday life. I think that the state should have a word in it, but, should leave it open to, an open interpretation.

This is why we should really be careful on transferring bitcoins because once it would be transferred,taking it back would really be nearly impossible since you didnt even know on whose the one is holding or owning it and making argumentations would really be hard too because we do know once it has been passed it cant really be reversed and anyone can claim that they do really earn those coins which would really end up for you on not having a choice but to move on.

hello bitcoin is not a bitcoin private property is the property of those who own it, if i have bitcoins in my wallet, i own it's bitcoins. I can buy or sell them I'm free

Bitcoin is not a private property.The simple defination of private property is "off limits" but that is not how bitcoin is circulating. As long as someone has the amount to invest he/she has access to it. Same as paper money how the bitcoin own by someone everyone can earn it in any kinds of legal works.

In my opinion bitcoin is private property of individual who are using for it and own .

Bitcoin is a private property  you own and control your bank yourself without government or theird party control

The opinions differ here but I still suppose that yes, BTC is some kind of private property.

As long as any property, asset and etc you own yourself is obviously yours, but when you loose your ownership of the anything, you can not get it back. Bitcoin is just a currency and as long as its with you, you own it and the moment you spend it, then nothing can be done. It feels good when you own something special to you right.

here depends on the country of the regulator. For example, if Japan and the United States went on the way of recognizing the cryptocurrency as a digital currency from the part, then in Russia there was a bill that recognizes the crypto currency under the civil code as a product, that is, in fact when you change one crypto currency to another, then there will not be a contract of sale, Everything will depend on the legal system of the country.

When we do talk or describe it on common sense way then its clear that this is really a private property since those coins either you attain by means of purchasing or earning the thing here is that its a digital currency which unlike on physical world where properties would be classified as things like house and any possession's that wont really correlate with fiat itself.

It all depends on what kind of wallet your bitcoin is in; if it is a hot wallet it is yours for that time being. However, if that specific wallet has to have a fall back and the app has to shut down then ALL your BTC or ETH goes with the app. If your BTC or ETH is a cold wallet then that is your property and will remain yours  unless you choose to make an exchange or so forth.

This is a good question. Although,  I think bitcoin is a private property yet it should be more debatable to accurate clarify. 

I think Bitcoin is a secret property for where countries banned BTC.Because in which countries bank dosen't allow Bitcoin transaction by bank.
Yeah i believe BTC and Cryptocurrency is our online future property.

To me i will say yes that bitcoin is a private property because when you earn a bitcoin it is coming into wallet and of which you are the holder of the private key until you release the private no body can access the bitcoin in your wallet so for the moment you are holding it it remains your private properity.

yeah and because of its characteristic of Bitcoin itself, I think it's still a matter of consideration for certain countries. This is one of the things that are related about the future, and I'm sure that later on., it will get support until it will build the country more advanced due to bitcoin-related technology as well as all things related to cryptos.

I don't think bitcoin can be consider as private property, it will be if it is under the government law and of it is physical.

One of the advantage and also the disadvantage of having a crypto investment is that it is not centralized. You can do whatever you want, send crypto to anyone you want, with fees on some countries, and that people youve transacted for doesnt know anything about you. Decentralized society also means no rules and no appropriate officer to handle any conflicts. Bitcoin and other crypto is a private property. All youve stated is the negligence of the holder.

There is a good list of civil laws to learn from
If A loses some cash, it is picked up by B, and A knows who B is.
Then unless A can prove that cash is owned by A, the judge will not support A because the money has no name.It's hard to prove!

No. Bitcoin will never be a private property but only an asset to many. A private property is something physical that someone's own legally.

You are just talking into its positive side when it comes to decentralization and anonymity but we do all know it do have corresponding negative side too. I dont consider Bitcoin as a private property since its not having a physical form.If we do really try to imply or compare on what a private property then it would be entirely different you cant compare bitcoin into house,car, and other physical personal belongings.

Yeah you're right bitcoin will be an asset to everyone who uses it. bitcoin will not be a private property for someone?
because the bitcoin is decentralized, so there is no owner and control center that bitcoin has.
that means anyone can easily use bitcoins for their investments and assets..

It is good question and as per my knowledge bitcoin is a digital currency and it is not centralized like normal currency like dollar etc. It means it is not a private property. If you have bitcoins in your digital voilet then you are owner of these bitcoins and you can use it for purchase or sale, that is your own decision.

As long as you own the currency that's your asset. Once that moves away from your hand then yes it's not yours.  So I would suggest you to hold the coins as long as you can as this can be kept it as an asset.  This is what so many have done in this forum and have become so rich.  Though they sell bitcoin when needed,  mostly they just hold back to see the value grow.  As much the value grows,  their asset size increases.

Currency is the main source of any asset. Everyone is aware of it and yes, as long as i have either fiats or any crypto currency, yes i am the owner of the currencies and yes that is my asset as long as it remains with me. Curency can be used for an illegal and legal purpose. At times what happens, once the asset goes out of out hand. Currency is for a public use, so just circulate which will bringmore value to the currency you circulate and hold. 

Bitcoin has many attributes, some classify it as currency, others see it as an asset whereas others regard it as private property. Anyhow it is considered, it is still Bitcoin and maintains its decentralized mode of operation.
Bitcoin is regarded as private property because owning the private keys to a bitcoin address gives the holder the sole right over the Bitcoin in that particular wallet.

Bitcoin does not owned by anyone and not owned by one person. bitcoin is an asset whereby many people can use it and invest in it freely without any control and intervention from anyone, that's the function of decentralizing bitcoin. no owner, no control, and free to anyone

Yes it is private property of his owner. if i have 5 bitcoine then that's my private property

From my point of view Bitcoin is a private property because no one can take your my Bitcoin from me with out my involvement.

There are several types of private properties but in among of them bitcoin is supreme in one reason because of ownership of other properties which can take it away from us. For example, Fiat money, land, Gold and any other form of wealth can be taken it away by force from us. But bitcoin is the only private property which cannot be taken it away from us, and it will be with you as long as you have the private key with you and pass it safely to your children.

It is generally accepted in all civilized countries that the right of ownership includes three rights: the right of possession, the right to use and the right of disposal. In the case of bitcoin, all three rights will be present, which means that its holder will have ownership of bitcoins. If such a right is infringed by others in the event of theft, robbery, fraud or other unlawful actions, anyone can apply to the local police station and demand that they be investigated as a common crime. It will be a bit difficult to do this before the states legalize crypto currency when there is no clear definition of the status of the crypto currency. After such legalization, no questions about the ownership of the crypto currency should arise in the courts.

I agree with you that bitcoin is a property that has assets in gital. If someone takes it intentionally or unintentionally by tricking or stealing a wallet (hack), then he is a thief

I agree that bitcoin can not be property in any way.  Even to hear this is kind of embarrassing.  In my understanding, property is something that you can touch and see.

Bitcoin is a private currency, but I think that it can be equated to private property.

Nope, I know that bitcoin provides confidentiality in your transactions and identities, so your privacy is maintained. but privacy and private are two different things, especially private currency and private property, both things are very different, private use by only you, while bitcoin is used by anyone #imo

Yeah bitcoin is a private property but even if so there are hundreds services and tools like https://bestmixer.io/en (https://bestmixer.io/en) that providing safe transfer of bitcoins fast and easy! Cause everyone who have even 1 bitcoin knows that its hard to transfer in a random wallet from cryptocurrency exchange.

As long a it is earned and circulated its a public currency. The expectation is to have it as a public currency. But when its earned and held back for days, months and years, then it becomes stagnant and a private currency which is not even said as bad as the individual has worked if for. As Bitcoin is trusted on its value's growth, people do keep it as an asset for times to have the value still increase. There is a big relaxation when keeping bitcoin as an asset instead of having other types of assets like properties, houses, money kept in houses and banks and etc.

I'm against the idea that bitcoin is private property. Yet, if it is considered as 'private property' which belongs only to the owner of bitcoin, I would be agree. It means that the owner have right to sell, to hold, to trade, or even to donate it at any time.

Bitcoin is a private property because we get money by buying, anyone cannot take it without an agreement or if we live in a country that prohibits the ownership of Bitcoin. so Bitcoin is indeed private property.

Well, It seems to me that it depends on how you think about bitcoin but for me it is a private key because I can earn it on my own and I can hold it as long as I can. Though Bitcoin can be earn by anyone or any person who wants to do it, still once we have a cryptocurrency in our hand it is now a private. We should analyzed more about cryoto to properly used it.

It is a private property because the government does not own any of it or they can't take control of it directly. The owner is the only who can access it because he knows where is the passphrase/private key of the wallet and nobody else.

Bitcoin is clearly a private property that must be secured very tightly because it is a valuable asset, even to the welfare of the family. Therefore, a wealth must be increased by trading, so that it will grow.
Bitcoin is indeed an extraordinary phenomenon where in just 10 years it has become a digital currency that is popular and widely used by people around the world.

Agreed .  bitcoin is a private property because its a currency and you just dont share your currency/money to other people because money is hard to earn  . but its not appropriate anymore if you cant share your bitcoin to your family  .   however bitcoin is not private in terms of transaction because anyone can see and track you .


Trading is risky . you cant say that when you trade your cryptos will grow .  i rather go on investing or on other less riskier business .

Bitcoin is a very personal wealth, even mysterious because nobody knows the real bitcoin owner. Because ownership of bitcoin is just a code, which is not easily known.
Therefore bitcoin investment is very promising if managed wisely because as long as bitcoin is in your wallet it is not taxed, regardless of the number of bitcoins you have, unlike investing in taxable banks.

Whatever you call it, everyone has their own perspective right? and in my opinion bitcoin is not a private property because everyone can have it. but Indeed, bitcoin does maintain your privacy and identity but that doesn't mean it's called a private property, Its public property and currency..

Nobody has a patent for the invention of Bitcoin. Therefore, anyone who legally owns Bitcoin in his wallet can be considered its owner. That is, any person owning Bitcoin should be considered its owner until the opposite is proved.
In this regard, Bitcoin can be fully regarded as private property.

The creator of Bitcoin Satoshi Nakamoto did not issue a patent for his invention. This means that the real owner of Bitcoin does not exist. therefore, the owners of bitcoins should be considered all persons who have a certain amount of bitcoins in their wallets and who have not been complained about their illegal acquisition. However, the best way to prove ownership of Bitcoin will be if the state legalizes cryptocurrency and during legalization legal status of cryptocurrency is established.

"Bitcoin is a digital currency" and is known to everyone ;D it uses encryption; we can't say that it as private property but we can save it in your wallet and the person who has that wallet access can buy and sell it  :)

My take is it is private property and as long as you hold the private key of a particular wallet you own the coins that are on that wallet because there is no way they can move the coins without you giving them your private key, but this is debatable I'd love to hear experts on laws about this matter.

As long as you don't give your private key, you can be sure that you still have what you have in your wallet. but if you make a mistake so that your private key is taken by someone, then you can't do anything when taken. and no one can help if taken because of your mistakes. therefore keep your private key as good as possible.

Property maybe because we no one owns the same wallet address we have.
Though the amount might be duplicated but it is coming from certain wallet owners, that's my opinion.
The government has to give exact treatment of bitcoin because they will also based on their definition on how to treat it for tax purposes.

The problem with this properly now is we are the only one who knows it's ours since it's not public, it's different from the usual concept, so
there should be a proper guidelines for owner's protection and that's again coming from government regulation.

This is a very interesting topic and I want to dwell more on this, a poll is very good for this kind of discussion, I consider Bitcoin a private property, because you are the only one who can send your fund to whatever address as long as you own the key, your coin can only be part of the circulation as long as you, move it because as an owner you are the only one with access on it.

Are you the owner of the paper bill, be it a dollar, euro or other common currency? No, you are not. Its owner continues to remain the state, and you are only the owner of this banknote on the value of its face value. You are only the owner of funds in the amount indicated in the note. If you intentionally spoil them, you can be liable.
However, the issue with Bitcoin ownership is very interesting. Legally, there is no owner for it as an invention. Nobody got a patent for it. This means that you have the right to be considered the owner of Bitcoin, and the funds that are listed in it as cryptocurrency.

Bitcoin is clearly a private property because the ownership is hidden in a wallet that is only known to the owner and protected by a very complicated password. In theory, it is very difficult to know the contents of a bitcoin wallet except the negligence or mistakes of the wallet owner.
Ownership of bitcoin stored in the wallet is very safe and can be very long depending on the owner wants to use or just investment while waiting to be a very expensive price.

Bitcoin is a private property because only the individual has the rights to access the amount of cryptocurrencies.
As long as only one has access to them and no other entity or 3rd party can be involved (such as banks) then it is considered private.
It is a very nice and debatable poll and it would be nice to see the outcome of it.

No Bitcoin is not a private property people just have their own private keys as they can prove that they have the ownership of one. just like with a faint note, if you have a bank note it doesn't make you the owner of the banknote that note is still the property of government as it is written on the note that government will pay you the value of the note when you pass it to government. so when people exchange money they are not exchanging any money they are just passing that contract of the government with each other as a value of money. and guess what government can print this lie as much they want even if they do not have that much money they are still gonna print this lie.