Bitcoin Forum

Hello.

I`m looking to raise 100k Euro and build 100 carbon / wooden acoustic guitars with it.

I made an investment proposition with 10 full shares of 10000 Euro (smallest available would be 1/4 share). Investing could be done with Euro bank transfer or BTC.

What % of gain is acceptable with a 2 year project from an investors point of view?

Are there industry norms?

Koen.

There are no industry norms.  Most lenders here take 10~20% interest, but most lenders here don't do 2 years loan.

There isn't a lot of lenders willing to do loans over 2 years, they want big profit in short time. You are not able to offer 10% each month like a lot of short terms lenders are able to, therefore you won't get picked up quite easily.

Even with just 5% (with is way below 10%) you will have to pay more then 60% each year.

Hmm, i thought about 130% back after 2 years (30% profit). There would also be other advantages, like the ability to buy for a dealer price for life (starts after the investment project is concluded). A 2200 Euro guitar would be 1700 for a dealer and can be resold.

It`s about my brand Dutch Luthier and a guitar called the Hybrid (3 years R&D and 30k spent). I need this 100k to get a largers space to fold out a proprietary production system.

https://www.instagram.com/dutchluthier/

Btw 2 years would be the last payment of the last investor, every time 1 guitar made from the investment is sold  50 cent per euro profit goes to investors imidiatly. There would be a vote if the first investor gets all profit from guitar 1, and the second investor gets the money from the second guitar sold

OR

everybody gets paid equally on every guitar sale. So the ROI payments start sooner then 2 years in both scenarios.

So you need Investors and not lenders?
Because if you are looking for a loan, that high, you have to know that you need a bigger collateral.

But i think you know that, right? ::)

I don`t like the word loan. I want people who see the potential and are not afraid to put some work in as well, like marketing. So smart money investors. They could get a bonus of 100 Euro every time they sell one of the guitars.

A loan guy just wants his money back, I am not presenting any get rich quick schemes or bubbles, I am offering an opportunity to affiliate with Dutch Luthier. The ones participating in this get the dealer licence as mentioned and will be the first to get offered equity if that comes on the table in the future.

You said you don't want to use the word loan. Does that mean you are asking for some kinda partnership?
If yes, what are you yourself willing to pay the investors who will invest in this project?
Will you display all the details here that how much will be possible returns? And if you don't gain as expected, what will you do to payback your investors?

There could be some equity as a thank you at the end.

I`m not sure what would be the solution if there are delays in the project. The only thing i can think of right now if the guitars don`t sell, is sending those guitars to the investors which then become their property until the value of their investment is repaid (dealer price , they dont pay full retail), but I don`t wish the dump a burdon of sales onto them. I`m not paying investors for a partnership, I am providing an opportunity, this market is big (acoustic guitars USA 2015 700M), and the barrier to entry is in composite instruments is huge. We all fall or win together.

There could be a contract where IP is partially signed over to investors if the project fails, that includes the IP of this gutiar model as well as the proprietary production system that can be used for guitars and basses. The thing is that the system much more valuable with me, the inventor in the mix. You could sell it to a large guitar company but they would need to know how to implement it. Even if people invest i can not simply show the proprietary production system, that is all NDA basis if it`s absolutely needed for them to see it. This system allows for a production of 10 units per month per employee. A wooden acoustic guitar builder with comparable quality does about 12 units per year for comparison.

I`m not gonna sign this IP over just like that, this is my life, this guitar model has 3 years R&D and many sacrifices. With 100k, i could guarantee the production of 100 units, but i will not pretend i can guarantee sales. I believe these units would have the quality of a 3000 Euro guitar, and Dutch Luthier would sell them for 2200. These 100 units can be built in 1 year, then the sales process begins.

This is why i want smart money, advice on building an international distribution network as well as online direct to consumer sales. These 100 units would bring in 220k, so the structure is sound, as I said year 2 would be to sell these units.

For now i`m just trying to hear from you guys what an acceptable gain would be, I am still finalising 8 units right now. Many guitar players (including double grammy winner Mark Lettieri from Snarky Puppy) tested 3 units of the Hybrid 1.0 guitar model, their feedback has been incoorporated into Hybrid 2.0, I am now making 8 units of the new generation. Only when that is done would this deal come into play to minimise risk for investors, all the R&D is then complete and the model is then production ready.

I`ll give some more thought to collateral and failsafe scenario`s.


Mark Lettieri https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwtUJfN9SaE

I deal with an investor group that makes loans like this.  Normally when they are looking to make a high loan risk like this, they are looking for an return of about $ .35 on the dollar (or) .35 BTC on the BTC.  The issue is that you have to convince the investors that there is a way you will make money and how you are going to do this.  Again, there are not to many lenders on this site that will make that loan, but there are a few.  Might I suggest that you put together a small business plan in order for the investors to see what they may invest in.  Good luck with all you do.

You would be extremely silly to take a 2 year bitcoin loan if you were in fact planning to pay it back.
Who knows what the price of btc will be then, you could end up owning hundreds of thousands of dollars worth, remember Dank he took a 52btc loan worth about $2000 at the time i think then the price shot up and he ended up owing around $52,000, not that he paid it but he did post pics of the new car and bike he purchased with the scammed bitcoin.

This should also be in the long term loan section.

No one would be willing to loan anyone on a forum for over 2 years unless he/she knows the borrower quite well in personal life or has some contacts which are believed to exist for the two years.
Added to this the forum members are nice and can help you for small amounts and quick times, they are no really here to help for loans such as banks give.

You want to base the interest you collect off of the loan amount and the term of the loan.  I normally try to collect 10% for every week the loan is out.  When it comes to customers who are good value, I will lower the rate and sometimes give small loans out with no interest.  Just some food for thought.

I would not pay back the ammount in BTC. The initial ammount in fiat value is returned at the BTC value of that time.

I wish there was a way to partner up with people instead of a loan. With ammount X, I will make guitars and sell them, share the profits according to the equity. I want to fail or succeed together instead of 1 person standing above another. I have 10 years luthery experience, a rare and valuable skill. People that bet on me win because I will build guitars for the rest of my life, like I always did. I did it in a tiny room so it can only go better in a larger space with better tooling.

Hi.

I have a business plan in Dutch and English as well as specific investor propositions. I even have the entire thread ready to go for the thing I described in the original post, a 14 page investment proposition with 10k shares and 13k return.

Is it allowed to sell equity on this forum?

Big difference between a common interest rate on here and for a normal bank. In the world of banking, the most common interest rate for a person like you would probably be around 6-10 percent from a bank.


From people on here, expect it to be much higher as these people aren't personal banks and you must NEED to lend from us as I guess you can't work with a bank.

Why dont you ask Banks for your loan? Euro has negative interest rate. I am pretty sure any offer from the banks will be better anything you will get from here. Plus, you can keep all the shares of your company, instead of sharing them with the other people.

I want a partner, not a loan.

I am not sure this is the place you are to advertise this on this forum, but go ahead and send over some information over to me through PM and I will review it.  If I like what I see, I will get a non-disclosure set up and we can talk business.  I hope you have something interesting!!

I PM`d you.

I wouldn' just loan to you simply because your name is bumface. I don't take you seriously and I don't  even think you going to use the loan for what you say you will. Please man... You don't even have a proper business plan in place and you want people to give you money ?

Would you give me money if I asked for some and did the exact some pitch as you ?

Seriously why did you reply 2 and a half month old topic?