Bitcoin Forum

I was really wondering If exchanges could be considered as a free alternative for Mixers like Bitmixer ? Mixers make transactions confusing to whoever is trying to track you , and I guess It's the same thing for exchanges as you don't own your address but there are transactions coming to and going from your address.

I was looking to my address at CoinsBank (AKA bit-x) and I couldn't find much about the addresses I was withdrawing to and there is also transactions that I didn't make in the first place . So yeah , could exchanges be an alternative ? (at least a cheaper/free one)?

I am already using exchanges as alternative of mixers, with my exchange and with my xapo account I do not need any bitcoin mixer system, I think with that service of exchange we do not need any other mixer.

I guess you could argue that they do act as free mixers, however I think it kind of depends on how the exchange operates and what their set-up is for things like that. I guess it would also be considerably harder to track transactions and who owns what, especially for exchanges that have the rotating address set-ups. I personally think that exchanges could be a viable alternative for mixers and so.

your right and i thought that before myself, lets just hope tho that the day you send your bitcoin out that the exchange gets hacked.....lol

from the point of view of blockchain taint. yes exchanges can be considered mixers as you are not usually going to get the same taint you deposited in, when you withdraw.

however if you registered with an exchange using the same username/email/ip as you use for this forum. then its not really anonymous.

so if you were to talk about something illicit on this forum, where what was said here appears to relate to a real life crime.. authorities can check your post history to see if you mention any particular exchange you have talked about and get a court order for all records related to a username that matches yours on the exchange..

most exchanges have a 'order history' where you can see not only the trades but the deposits and withdrawal logs too..
they then know where you withdrew to, to "follow the money" even after you think you removed taint by syphoning it through an exchange

other scenario
you may even have done a bad trade/escrow on this forum with a employee of an exchange you use. and he decides to revenge-doxx you and reveal all bitcoin addresses linked to you.

I've been known to get up to this as well and it works fine. I certainly wouldn't do it if my anonymity was vital for whatever reason. They're not in the business of disguising you and I'm sure plenty of logs are kept.

its not a mixer at all and it is possible to trace the addresses i believe

The problem with exchanges is that you get your details attached to the coins you withdraw. Especially when you have verified your account with ID and stuff. Governments forcing an exchange to release information about you is a realistic danger. Mixers such as Bitmixer removes everything related to you and doesn't save logs and stuff. That's the good thing.

1) Use a US IP address (VPN) to register an email address on mail.com.
2) Set up a BTC-E or 1Broker account with VPN using the anonymous email address.
3) Deposit and withdraw coins. In the case of 1broker, wait until your deposit has been sweeped (otherwise they may send the same outputs directly back to you).

Yes, there is a still a point of failure -- the VPN. Use a no-log VPN. Even then, can't be sure. Maybe Tor --> VPN.

Never used a mixer, never had to (yet).

I was kind of wondering the same thing.  If I send bitcoin to an exchange address, then buy an altcoin (for example)...how is anyone going to track that?  I've heard on other threads that that's how you remain anonymous.  Is that true?

That's right because we can generate a new address if we wanna making a transaction of depositing. like we are wanna for depositing into the x site and we can generate a new address for sending them. i think exchanges is simple mixers.

Well I guess you need to have blackhat Bitcoins to do that anyways. If you definitely just need to hide from someone (not cops) you'll just use it without proxies.

Yeah you'd need rather shady sources for those btc and I'm not sure how I feel about it. But in principle using an exchange could perfectly work as a sort of mixer.

It's true that exchanges act just like mixers, because they are off-chain. the one key difference is that it's 100% that the exchange is logging your addresses and transactions, especially after the Bitfinex hack. At least with mixers, it's likely that they're legit and don't log anything.

yes and no.
i don't know about bit-x (coinsbank) because they recently changed how their addresses work whereas before it wasn't like this. you deposited in your address and it remained there unlike other exchanges.

but technically it is possible to mix your coins this way and cut the connection and i have done it myself although you have to trust that exchange service to deposit your money and be able to withdraw it afterwards.

You can consider exchanges a cheaper alternative, but not free. They charge transaction fees right?
Aside from that, using exchanges does not satisfy the need of "anonymizing" your coins. Because exchanges require you to provide your identity information.

that's the saddest truth because you needed to provide private info to exchange in order for you to use their service in full and it is not really safe or use as a mixers for your bitcoin mate.

it is not exactly free, and especially not free on coinsbank because they charge a percentage fee (if i am not mistaken it was 0.5% fee) on withdrawals unlike other exchanges where they only charge a fixed 0.0002BTC fee on withdrawals.

but you are right about the rest of it and i have said it before too, exchanges are a good way of mixing coins for the average Joe only.

It could probably be argued as to whether or not they are decent when it comes down to being a decent alternative for a mixer, however it definitely is ok when it comes down to making it difficult to take your coins. What goes in will be very hard to find when it comes out. However anyone who has access to the website's data can find out who you are, so it isn't necessarily good unless you take steps to anonymize yourself on the exchange first.

What about yobit and such exchanges?   I don't think I had to provide much info at all, but I don't deposit cash.  Just bitcoin and altcoins.  And when I used cryptsy i specifically remember not having to give them anything other than an email addy.  I think the kyc requirements are much less when you don't use cash.

The problem with centralized entities is the authorities could force them to release information they need to trace the transactions of the target. So be careful if you think you are safe and anonymous by using the exchanges to "mix" your coins. Not even Bitcoin mixers can be fully trusted because the authorities can do the same to them.

I would not throw the FREE label around, when it comes to exchanges. They have fees too, and sometimes these fees are much higher that Mixer services. Also, some exchanges are operated by incompetent people with poor security, as we have seen with many exchanges being hacked over the years.

How many Mixer services do you know, that have been hacked?

I'm speaking  from an experience when I say that CoinsBank didn't ask me for any real information's (at least not for the moment) as I didn't ask for the Visa card or wanted to rise limits and I'm not trading fiat , BTC coming in and going out only.

No popular exchange asks you for your ID unless you are depositing Fiat or withdrawing into Fiat. Anything related to fiat you will have to verify, because that's usually the local law. But since there are no laws against cryptocurrencies, you can trade it for another cryptocoin or Fiat credit without limitations.

An exchange can always have financial problems you do not know of.
Or even being hacked, just at the moment where you deposit your money there.
And they charge fees for every transaction and withdrawl.
A bitmixer just sends the coins around, at least as far as I know.
I see a much lower risk in using a bitmixer than in using an exchange.

I think more be anonymous using bitcoin mixing services are like bitmixer or cryptomixer, because they don't asking about verification when use their service, it is different with markets who ask about our indentity.

Short answer: yes :)

Long answer: mixers (say they) don't log transactions. Exchanges log everything. If you've provided your real identity to the exchange, you make it easier to find you instead of making it harder.
I guess it depends on who you're trying to hide from. If it's law enforcement, they're likely to get information anyway (assuming they can find which address belongs to which exchange). Then again, if you go through several exchanges in several countries, and add a few online casinos to your chain, it takes a lot of effort to track you.

well, mixing coins has kind of a big definition. it is not just taint analysis and not being able to know where the coins ended up.

yes for regular users it is possible to do it but only if you trust the exchange service enough to deposit and withdraw there because even 1 minute of deposit can be risky on exchanges that are getting hacked left and right.

but for some, who don't want anybody to be able to track them it is not a good idea to use an exchange for mixing because the exchange service is obligated to keep logs of all the transactions so it can easily be tracked.

Guess this can be done with little fees and transferring money into altcoins then in other exchanger into bitcoins again.
Probably even that can be followed, but if its true that someone can follow coins from beginning to the end then all stolen founs from the past would be found. Well nobody found them and hackers are still free. Lets ask them how and where they mixed stolen coins. They would give us best answer.

It seems right, because your withdrawals from exchanges are transferred from exchange's hot/cold wallet, so daily transactions are a lot, people can't trace your withdraw, at least they can't know your bitcoin address to another wallet.

you can use exchange as free mixers also in this way:

send btc --- exchange for ltc/doge --- withdraw this coins in a new address.

Then send this coins to another (or the same exchange) and you can get back your btc !

Probably you loss a bit because there is a couple of passage but I think this is also a fair solution ;)

* if you are doing something illegal for example gained the coins through a hack then doing all that is pointless because authorities can contact both exchanges and ask then to release your information (the addresses, your IP and a lot more)

* if you are not doing anything illegal then there is no point of doing all that. just do a simple deposit and withdrawal and you are good to go.

I think exchangers (legal/registered one) should co-ordinate with government or laws in time of investigation and at that time they may supply your personal details to them on which they can find address they are looking for in withdraw list of the member and it will be easy for them to catch the guy.

And in worst scenario if you keep your coins in exchanger than in case of hack like bitfinex all of the coins you have will be lost.

This doesn't change the fact that an exchange still knows where your coins are going. With a mixer they delete all things linked to your transaction as soon as your clean coins are received by you. That's the main benefit compared to using an exchange or other service as a mixer.

it depends on what you want to achieve from mixing your coins. if you want to prevent other bitcoin users to find out about your cold storage for example or find out how much bitcoin you own then yes it is a good and cheap way of doing it.

but for other purposes that may be shady coins then you have to use mixers.

If I'm not mistaken, Coinbase (another online wallet like Xapo) creates a new Bitcoin address for every transaction you make. So it would be hard to follow Coinbase transactions as well...

Unless you stick to using the same address, of course

Well the only issue is with mixers no one will trace your coins overs the wallets, as this is their service, with exchanges i do believe if some problem happens they can and will trace the wallets and find the coins. But i never used mixers and i dont need them why to hide my balance being it 1 btc or even 1000 bitcoins makes no sense for me.

I'm afraid this is not so. There was a discussion here about this matter some time ago, and it was proven that mixers do keep logs of the transactions they process. For example, if you have a dispute with a mixer over some issue, the legit one will have to prove that they received funds from you and did actually send them back to you (you guess what it means in respect to the matter in question)...

The consensus was that no matter what the mixers might say and want you to believe, you'd still better not hope that they "delete all things linked to your transaction"

You are right, exchanges work like a good mixer, so I do not need any mixer and I totally rely on exchanges for mixing my bitcoins on addresses and I did not face any issue in doing that.

But exchanges keep your record which defeats the purpose of mixing.What do you mix your coins for? to keep them anonymous obviously but do you think your identity keeps anonymous when you use exchanges?

It all depends on whom you are trying to hide your transactions from. It is quite possible that using an exchange outside of the US jurisdiction (say, in China) may be a safer way to mix (hide) your coins than using a US based mixing service if you aim, for example, at tax evasion in the US...

Anyone who ain't paranoid simply ain't paying attention

you are right, i never use exchanges as mixers because i know that it is impossible to be completely anonymous with it to be honest

I also have used the exchange as an alternative mixer!
 with the exchange and with VIP Bitcoin accounts that exist in Indonesia
I do not need bitcoin system mixer
I think with that we do not need to exchange services other mixer.

There are more things to consider. Why do you want your Bitcoins mixed? Just to hide it from your Mother, so she does not see what you buy? This would seem safe to me, at least regarding the privacy. But Exchanges will keep book of your addresses and if the right authority (or for some other reason someone else) comes into possession of those book, then your privacy is gone. But there is more to consider. It is an additional risk to have Bitcoin at exchanges. A hack might be the obvious but unlikely risk, but there are problems from time to time if you want to withdraw again from the exchange. Just be aware of that.

I don't think anybody cares whether or not you mix your coins if you have got any at all, mixers are a solution to hide the origins of your coins. If you are mining large amounts daily and don't want anyone to find your location by tracing the mined bitcoins you can use BitMixer.io so they receive the mined coins on your behalf and with different fees and timing send some other coins to as many addresses as you instruct them to send.
There is no use for average joes in mixing their few bucks worth of bitcoins.
When you send your coins to mixer they become the decoy while you already done your trades and finished those tracking you still busy thinking they are on your tail.

If you are a miner and don't want to pay tax when you decide to exchange into fiat a mixer is also your solution.

And of course a mixer is only good if they are trusted especially with large amounts.

Its not really anonymous mixing if you have your name associated to the deposit of your BTC.
You may get other BTC's than you deposited.. but there is still the association of your Name (or at least of your account)
and your coins.
A Mixer gives you the opportunity to get "clean" coins to your address without any association to your old ones (or to your name).

But if you got your coins without any illegal activities.. i guess you can use those exchanges as a kind of Mixer..

I know mixers are probably a better way but both gambling sites and exchanges usually don't require any names unless you want to use fiat for trading etc... It's never needed to provide your personal info when you trade between crypto only. CoinsBank , Poloniex are both an example for that.

This is only if you are going withdraw amounts below some fixed limit (per day)

I'm not sure about CoinsBank (and they may in fact have stricter rules in this regard), but I well remember the day when Poloniex set such limits. I don't know about right now (I don't actively trade there nowadays), but back then it was about 1k worth of dollars allowed to withdraw daily without proper identification of yourself

in a way, yes it's mixing for a small fee for withdrawing however, there are few issues with that:

- most exchanges (I know bitstamp and btc-e) do not welcome you doing that at all, no rigid rules but a possibility to be asked for ID, address particularly for large amount, altcoin exchanges don't mostly though.

- There are records of everything, the main thing about mixers is not keeping any records for the exchange, but here there are records for the incoming and the outgoing tx's accessible for the website, as well as even potential identity information, Therefore people doing mixing for large orders would mostly prefer using mixers and paying rather than exchanging websites.

I wouldn't harbor much hope on this

I remember when some dude involved with mixer services admitted here that mixers do keep logs (at least, for some time) of all transactions that they have processed. This is required if a dispute should arise between the service and their clients. Other than that, if a mixer is taken over by some government security agency (or even created by them), they will keep all logs of all activity. If you are in a money-laundering business and that's for real, you might not want to have any delusions on this account, I mean that they don't keep records (but that you would know yourself)