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so i've been playing with the idea of buying land in montana and exploring the non-traditional home options. i've looked at tiny homes, mobile homes, and RV's. today i discovered pre-fab homes. i find this topic interesting. figured i would share and see what you guys think.

http://revolutionprecrafted.com/
http://www.thebackcountryhutcompany.com/
http://www.leckiestudio.com/residential/
http://www.dubldom.ru/index-eng.htm
http://www.kodasema.com/en/
http://www.rocioromero.com/

Some things to think about:

What are the building code requirements in:
- Montana
- County
- City

You will most likely need to have the foundation designed, the plans for the house and foundation will most likely need to be stamped by a Montana licensed engineer (or architect).

You will still need a water supply (municipal, drilled well, etc.) and a septic system.

Prefab sounds great, but there are still many other costs to factor in.
Usually, there is very little to no price difference from Prefab to traditional construction.
The only advantage can be speed, but depending on the backlog at the prefab place sometimes there is not much advantage there either.

i didn't post here to ask questions. just wanted to share and see what people have to say.
>> response to deleted post.

some of these companies already have the foundation designed for their homes and a company that constructs for them. solar panels is an easy solution for electricity. lots of people who live off grid have designed self contained septic systems. the legality of this is dependent on the location. plumbing will be a bit more challenging than solar but what i currently have no answer for is internet. i'm sure if you get carried away you can match the cost of a traditional house. but taking the dubldom for example that's 22K. most homes are around 250K. i have doubts about spending the difference on foundation solar septic permits etc.

Pre fabricated houses are quite nice. The builder has a lot of options to make a design. Because of this, prefab houses are in lot of county's over here only used for vacation means on specific area's. The building requirements for houses which are used for permanent living are stricter.

The term "self-contained septic system" makes it sound like the problem goes away, but most people don't realize what that really means, and when they find out they are not very willing to go that route.

Here is one example: http://www.iatp.org/news/afton-inventor-designs-a-self-contained-home-sewage-treatment-system

They need constant monitoring, maintenance, cost $55,000 and you are drinking/re-using your shower/sink/etc water.

I can't imagine the $22k prefab in an equivalent to a $250k house. That is Apples to Oranges.

i am aware the "problem" does not simply "go away" but i have doubts about a 55K price tag for a small septic system. below is just one example of the many low cost solutions available. some of these systems either involve composting, purifying, or disposal once or twice a year.

i'm not comparing pre-fab to a traditional house. my comment is in response to you saying pre-fab can offer little to no price difference after utilities and legalities.

http://www.off-grid.net/a-small-diy-septic-system/

That is not a "self-contained septic system". That is just a diy system, which will most likely not meet code requirements. I don't know what the regulations are like in Montana, but many states require engineer stamped plans for septic systems, which need to follow the required codes.

I agree there is the potential for low-cost solutions, a "self-contained septic system" is not low cost. The key is water usage, you need to either re-use the water or dispose of it. The traditional method is disposal in a leach field or similar. Re-use is expensive to make safe.

The third option, as you mentioned, is a holding tank style system that gets pumped as needed. These can get expensive, most holding tank systems are around 2000 gallon capacity and cost around $250-$350 to get pumped. The average household uses around 100 gallons per bedroom per day. So say you have a small single bedroom house and conserve water, you might only use 50 gallons per day. Your 2000 gallon tanks gets filled every 40 days, so you end up getting it pumped 9 times a year for a total around $2700 each year.

You mentioned a prefab costing $22k and then said most homes cost $250k. My point was that if you were to traditionally build an equivalent house to the $22k pre-fab, that it would not be much different in price. Likewise, if you tried to replicate a $250k traditional built house with a pre-fab it would cost close to the same. The only real advantage is speed of onsite construction.

i will admit, the plumbing aspect is not something i have spent much time looking in to but i know it will be the most challenging aspect. i'm not sure what are the requirements for a "self contained system" but i have seen a few different solutions that do not require being connected to the municipal water supply.

about water usage. google says average water usage for a shower is around 17 gallons. i don't take a daily shower and i don't drink or cook with the municipal water so there is no way i use 50 gallons of water a day. there are plenty of rivers and lakes in montana. with views like this why would i want to use the shower? i would only use a shower during the winter and i would collect rain water for my water usage.

the whole point of pre-fab is cost effectiveness, off grid, and environmentally friendly living. taking about trying to build a pre-fab to the equivalent of a 250K house is redundant. the real conversation is can you supply the utilities and permits for the 200k difference between the pre-fab and the traditional. i think you can. sure, you will have to spend money for waste removal. but that cost is insignificant compared to a mortgage and property tax. being off grid and self sustainable also means no electric gas and water bill.

https://i.imgur.com/optVDdp.jpg?1

I'm not talking about being connected to a municipal water supply. I agree that you most likely use less water. My point is just that there are many things to think about, especially what things are required by code.


That might be what you are trying to accomplish, but not the point of pre-fab.

The point of pre-fab is to create houses in an assembly line style with the hopes of reducing cost and construction time.

My point is that you could spend less building an equivalent house to what the pre-fab company is offering. You are not saving $200k because you are not building an equivalent house. You are comparing a 1 bedroom cabin for 1 person to a 4 bedroom 2-1/2 bath house for a family of 4. If you price out what it cost to construct a 1 bedroom cabin the same as the pre-fab it would probably be very close.

I'm not trying to argue with you, I just don't want you to get surprised.
I am an Engineer (I do house plans, site design, septic systems, stormwater control, etc.) and I often see people that go through the whole process and realize when they are all done that they could have traditionally built for less than the pre-fab cost. The pre-fab usually only saves them two or three months of construction time.

i agree, there is alot to consider.

the point of a pre-fab is subjective and depends on who you are and what side of the table you are on. buyers will care about the things i mentioned. manufacturers will care about the things you mentioned. you will also find buyers who don't care about living off grid as well as manufacturers who are passionate about sustainable living. it's kinda like asking different people what they see when looking at art. view points will vary.

i find your suggestion that i could build a comparable 1 bedroom house for around the same price an interesting suggestion. i don't believe this for one moment. but it's still a mind blowing idea.

i am aware you are not trying to argue with me. nor am i with you. i've enjoyed our conversation.   ;D

You could pick up three or four two-door travel trailers. Then hook them together door to door to make a single structure. Of course, where you live in Montana might get you to add some additional insulation for the winter. Travel trailer roofs wear out, often in 10 or 12 years, so you might consider taking some waterproofing along. Could be rather inexpensive this way, yet give you a lot of indoor space.

8)

designers are already doing shipping container homes. it sounds wacky, but they can make some really nice homes.
https://www.google.com/search?q=shipping+container+homes&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=950&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiI-qnex-DQAhXGeCYKHXeeCqQQ_AUIBigB

for roof / insulation i would totally go with a living roof.
https://www.google.com/search?q=living+roof&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=950&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjd3_qlyODQAhVHllQKHdStDzQQ_AUIBigB

Remember the word equivalent when comparing. Same size, layout, finishes, etc.
You mentioned the DIY septic, which tells me that maybe you are willing to do some stuff yourself. If that is true there are also other areas where you can save. Even things as simple as doing the painting can save a fair amount.
Additionally keep in mind that any changes or custom options will be easier for someone to implement if they are not on a production line.


Good, me too.  ;D

i am aware you are talking about an equivalent home. i'm still not buying it. these companies spent tons of time and money on R&D to come up with these designs. they have the contacts for the materials and the labor. the people who work with them probably have a contract to work for less than they would charge an individual due to the scale of the contract. maybe somebody like yourself who is an engineer could build something comparable. no way is the random individual with no experience going to pull together all the required talent and resources needed to build the equivalent home from the ground up for around the same price.

Again, look into it, I'm not sure about Montana, but I know in many states it would not meet code requirements for insulation. Additionally, the roof/building would need to be designed to support the additional weight.

These types of things sound great, but when you try to make them meet code requirements they either don't or become very expensive to implement.


I am just saying to check into it. And I'm not talking about a "random individual", I am talking about contractors that build houses for a living, they have all the same resources as the pre-fab companies. They have contracts with material suppliers, they get contractor discounts, they know exactly who to hire for each particular job, etc.

Here is a recent example:
We had a couple come to us and asked us to prepare building plans for them. After months of laying out exactly what they wanted (the woman was very detail oriented, thinking about how she would walk through the house, etc.) for a house and completing the plans and they took them to two contractors for prices. The prices came back at approximately $225k and $245k. They thought both were too high, they ended up not using our plans (wasting $4k+) and buying a pre-fab because the price looked good, even though the layout and size were not the same. Then they needed to come back to us for a foundation design for the pre-fab. Then they needed to still hire the excavation contractor for the site work, the concrete guy for the foundation, etc. When they were all done it cost them $200k for a house that was not exactly what they wanted, smaller, laid out differently, etc. What they saved was they were able to move into the house about 2 months quicker. Yes, they saved $15k but if they had built the same house as the pre-fab the price probably would have been even lower. The house was about 250 +/- sf smaller, typically (around here) you can expect to pay about $150/sf so 250 sf X 150/sf = $37,500. So potentially the equivalent to the pre-fab house could have been built for $188k to $208k.

Now, Montana could be and most likely is completely different. Labor and material cost could impact things significantly. Just don't assume a pre-fab company with a nice looking website is going to better/cheaper than the guy with no website but does have his name on the side of his truck.

Another thing that I always think about when I see business names:
Best Builders Inc. vs Smith's Contracting  <- I like it when the owner's name is right there, it tells me the guys stands behind his work.

i know code requirements will be an issue. i'm "assuming" building in the city vs living off the grid in a rural area will be much different.

i know what you are saying with the story about that couple. fuck around trying to save a buck "may" end up costing you more and getting an inferior product in the long run. i get it. it's just such a drastically different situation it really is the apple to oranges comparison you made earlier.

although i have my doubts about hiring a contractor to both design and build a 1 bedroom house for around 25K i will still talk with them to see what kind of numbers they say before making any decisions.

i appreciate the suggestion.

Not always, around here the building code is issued by the state, sometimes cities have their own extras, but the minimum is the state building code.

The majority of the work I do is in rural areas, and often the codes are stricter because everyone is trying to "save the environment" and "preserve nature". Lakefront can create issues with local agencies, there are setback requirements from the lake to the house. The main reason for the setback requirements is visibility, there is also tree cutting restrictions within a certain distance of the lake. They don't want to see someone's house when they go by in their canoe. I did work for people that had 600+ acres and their own 8-acre lake in the middle. They still needed to meet all the setback requirements and cutting restriction even though no one else would ever see the house from the lake since they owned it.

not sure if anybody else is interested in this stuff but figured i would share this as well. was looking at the shipping container homes. they can be quite nice. i found 8x40 shipping containers for $1700 shipped. this was the first site i clicked so if you look around i would not be surprised if you can find them for $1500. that size is 320 square feet. your average 1 bedroom apartment is 500-550 square feet. two containers would be comfortable. for $3000 you could have the bones of your home. at this point i can see maybe hiring a contractor to weld them together, cut out doors and windows, and do the interior exactly the way you want it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLsuwNfRU_8&t=334s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=665hEWbhjFM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4G197kNPUk

I am at work so I did not watch the videos yet, but I did read the description on the first video.
It took some convincing and work arounds to get through code requirements and he said the house still cost $55k to $60k.

I'll watch them when I get home.

I do know a guy who used them for the walls of his unheated storage barn.
Also, that is agricultural and there is very little code requirements for agricultural.

a brand new home for around 50K is a damn good price.

That was for just the house, not the property, utilities, etc.. He was trying to sell it for $135k.

I agree even $135k sounds good for a new house, but not for a house that is only 300 sf.
Maybe for a 800sf to 1000sf house.

i know 50K was just for the house. he also bought a lot for 40K in an urban area and spent another 25K to hook the utilities up traditionally. i've seen lots rent for $250 a month. depending on location and if you buy or rent the land there is alot of flexibility and 40K isn't necessarily an additional expense all buyers would be subject to.

the home wasn't 300 SF, it was 672. i noticed you keep comparing these to a house. maybe you should look at this a different way. look at them as a home instead of a house. if you keep comparing it to a house then yes 672 SF doesn't seem like much. but when you consider how many people live in a studio or 1 bedroom apartment and call it home then 672 SF is more than enough for a single person or a couple.

Yes, agree 600-700sf is great. I was just looking at the price per sf.

So at $135k / 672 sf = $200 per sf

Around here to build a typical house it cost around $150 per sf. This includes property, utilities, etc.

$200 per sf is usually a more high end house with granite countertops, stone fireplaces, etc.

where do you live? build brand new for $150 x SF seems unusually cheap. i live in chicago. prices "start" at $200xSF / 250K and climb rapidly. most people are looking at a 300K price tag for a "used" home. i just got done watching something about how housing costs in california are causing people to leave the state cause a small "fixer upper" in a shitty area sells for 300K.

The price is good, and the land would be better owned, I agree

I'm in NY state.

do you know anything about codes for trailer homes? i'm "assuming" since it's not fixed to the ground and mobile it would not be subject to the same regulations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McliXXlg9Vg

In NY they are still subject to the building code.
They are also "fixed" to the ground, you need to place them on a concrete slab and they are anchored to the slab.

so i briefing played with google to discover the proper terms regarding mobile homes, modular homes, manufactured homes, trailers homes, etc. seems they all have different regulations. i did find this information though and based on the little bit that i have read mobile homes are not subject to the same building codes. i'm not trying to have this legality conversation since local laws will differ. but since you are an engineer was just curious what your response would be regarding your state. you were right on the dot about the anchoring part. but i noticed it says "can require" anchoring as if not every zone will require it.

Unlike modular homes whose constructions are regulated by state and local building codes, mobile homes, double-wides and trailers, are regulated by the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), via the Federal National Mfd. Housing Construction and Safety Standards Act of 1974.

This national regulation has allowed many manufacturers to distribute nationwide because they are immune to the jurisdiction of local building authorities. There are, however, windzones adopted by HUD that home builders must follow. Depending on where a mobile home is located, these wind zone regulations can require special anchoring or tie downs to reduce the chances of the home being overturned in a storm.

So I guess I was wrong on them needing to meet state building code.  :-[
I guess that is the new thing I learned today.  :)
I rarely get involved in Manufactured Homes other than design for the slab that they sit on.

Here is what NY says about them: https://www.dos.ny.gov/dcea/manufinfo.htm

Since you are looking at Montana here is a useful page: http://bsd.dli.mt.gov/building-codes-permits

learning is good, and fun!!    ;D

so kinda curious what role you play as an engineer? do you do designs, blueprints, etc. do you do the actual construction? or both?

I am partners with another Engineer, our firm does mostly residential design and some small commercial. I mostly design septic systems, stormwater controls, drives/roads, subdivisions, campgrounds, potable water systems, etc. Mostly site work. My partner mostly does the architectural and structural building plans. We all do a little of everything at times.

We do all the plans required and go to planning/zoning board meetings to help people obtaining their building permits and approvals. Often we also go and do inspections during construction.

sounds like you lean more towards planning and designing than construction.

lets say an individual or another company approached you and is looking for somebody to design these modular or mobile homes. would you be interested?

Yes, we are planning and design.

Individuals and companies come to us all the time for design work, however, we do not do design work for modular/pre-fabs, other than foundations for those to sit on or the septic system, stormwater, etc..

Additionally, we are only licensed in NY state.

i am aware you currently don't do designs for modular and mobile. not interested in expanding to new areas? are you not able to design something that will be built in another state?

We are not legally allowed to stamp drawings for projects in another state.

I am willing to help and can do some drawing/design, but I just can't stamp anything for outside of NY state.

gotcha, i will keep you in mind.