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Bitcoin => Hardware => Topic started by: Database on December 15, 2016, 02:03:45 AM



Title: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: Database on December 15, 2016, 02:03:45 AM
I've seen several people mention that using AC is not a good choice for Miner cooling, could someone explain why? (Don't worry, my current mining rig uses fans)


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: shinratensei_ on December 15, 2016, 02:45:47 AM
I've seen several people mention that using AC is not a good choice for Miner cooling, could someone explain why? (Don't worry, my current mining rig uses fans)
It will be increasing a lot your electricity cost, Over 15% in my opinions.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1348488.0


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: philipma1957 on December 15, 2016, 05:14:01 AM
Ac is okay to add in some cool air.

But. You need fans to suck the hot air out.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: milewilda on December 15, 2016, 09:07:49 AM
I've seen several people mention that using AC is not a good choice for Miner cooling, could someone explain why? (Don't worry, my current mining rig uses fans)
It will be increasing a lot your electricity cost, Over 15% in my opinions.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1348488.0
This is the main reason why AC is not necessary on cooling the miner specially on operation. There are fans which could really take away the heat but you must really pay attention on the ventilation of the mining farm. If you add up AC then expect the additional expenses unless if you have cheap or free electricity.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: ljudotina on December 15, 2016, 10:07:50 AM
Problem is that AC wont give you enough air flow to be efficient so you will have to crank it up and use much more electricity than if you had simple fans that would have greater air flow on places where most heat is created. Air flow is really really important when we are talking about cooling electrical components.
Having both (ac and vents is good idea...AC to keep air cool and vents to deliver that cool air to places that are most heated up. That way AC can work on some "low" regime and you would need less vents or same amount that would work on low speeds and save electricity that way.
You should do some math calculations to see if that pays off.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: QuintLeo on December 15, 2016, 10:25:03 AM
A modern high-efficiency AC unit will eat 15-35% as much in electric as the amount of rig wattage it can cool.

 Depends on the SEER/CEER rating for the specific numbers, but a typical SEER 9.5-10.0 window unit is very close to that "add 35%" figure.


 Evaporative cooling, *where it works efficiently*, can drop that to more like 5% which is a very small additional cost.



 Example - 1500 watts of rig generates a little over 5000 BTU of heat.
 A SEER 9.0 AC unit of 5000 BTU capasity would use appx. 550 watts of power, very close to 35% additional power usage to use an A/C to cool that rig with.





Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: takagari on December 15, 2016, 03:30:10 PM
Using the cool air from an AC'd house on the intake is fine
Many do this, as long as you are expelling the heat outside.
Trying to turn the heat around through an AC unit and reuse it is a MASSIVE waste of power, and kills any profit or ROI.

Heat must be expelled never cooled.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: Qartersa on December 15, 2016, 03:35:27 PM
I also think AC has a lot of moisture in the air it blows. So maybe if you want a the right AC then you have to remove moisture and that is added cost to your mining expenses. Also, I think fans can already deal with the heat just that it need proper ventilation. You have to suck out the hot air properly and not just blow air on to your miners.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: takagari on December 15, 2016, 03:39:16 PM
I also think AC has a lot of moisture in the air it blows. So maybe if you want a the right AC then you have to remove moisture and that is added cost to your mining expenses. Also, I think fans can already deal with the heat just that it need proper ventilation. You have to suck out the hot air properly and not just blow air on to your miners.

AC is actually great for pulling moisture from the air, It's generally fairly dry air.
People can dehumidify their homes with an AC unit.

It appears to have water as when it cools an object, the object then collects moisture, but the water is not in the actual cooled air so much as in the ambient air.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: QuintLeo on December 16, 2016, 10:12:32 AM
I also think AC has a lot of moisture in the air it blows.

 All modern mechanical AC units have a "dehumidify" setting, as the cooling coil is cold enough it condenses humidity OUT of the air passing through it - which is why you need a drain line on ANY AC cooling coil (or a drain hole that is clear of the wall for window units).


 Because of the way relative humidity works, the "relative" humidity of the cold air output by an AC unit might be fairly high - but the actual moisture content is quite a bit lower.



Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: Betwrong on December 16, 2016, 11:19:41 AM
I've seen several people mention that using AC is not a good choice for Miner cooling, could someone explain why? (Don't worry, my current mining rig uses fans)

Depends on the price of the electricty consumption in your area, but on avarage using AC will cost you additional $70-$100 per month, so you should do the math to find out whether it worth it. Fans are better IMO, especially if the temperature outside is lower than 20C.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: virasog on December 16, 2016, 05:26:45 PM
I've seen several people mention that using AC is not a good choice for Miner cooling, could someone explain why? (Don't worry, my current mining rig uses fans)

The Main reason is that it will be eating into your profitability and will take more time to get back your investments. And AC is not as much as effective when you compare it with running a fan to remove the heat produced from your rigs.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: coolcoinz on December 17, 2016, 01:34:49 AM
It's possible to use a cheap water AC, where water is sucked from a nearby pond or a well, flows in metal pipes in front of a fan and goes back to the pond. This system would eat up below 100W, but you'd need a water source and some skill to build it. Like this thing but industrial size.
http://forum.automoto.ee/attachment.php?aid=49259


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: Zadicar on December 17, 2016, 05:00:30 AM
It's possible to use a cheap water AC, where water is sucked from a nearby pond or a well, flows in metal pipes in front of a fan and goes back to the pond. This system would eat up below 100W, but you'd need a water source and some skill to build it. Like this thing but industrial size.
http://forum.automoto.ee/attachment.php?aid=49259
I dont think it would produce a cold air inspite of letting the water from water source pass through that pipe.It wont guarantee it would give cool air anytime but i appreciate this kind of invention though. Well i cant conclude since i didnt experience to use or invent this.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: takagari on December 17, 2016, 04:47:37 PM
It's possible to use a cheap water AC, where water is sucked from a nearby pond or a well, flows in metal pipes in front of a fan and goes back to the pond. This system would eat up below 100W, but you'd need a water source and some skill to build it. Like this thing but industrial size.

I dont think it would produce a cold air inspite of letting the water from water source pass through that pipe.It wont guarantee it would give cool air anytime but i appreciate this kind of invention though. Well i cant conclude since i didnt experience to use or invent this.

That will infact produce a fair bit of cold air.
Or cooler air anyway, but most people do not have the setup for this.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: coolcoinz on December 17, 2016, 05:21:31 PM
A typical AC works in the same way, it just uses much cooler pipes and radiators around them to increase the surface.
If the room temperature is for instance 30*C, the water from an outside source will be at least 10*C cooler. Passing air that is at 30* around the pipes that are at 20* will make it cooler, no doubt about it.
Similar technology is used in evaporative coolers, but they might not be suitable for mining because they increase humidity.
http://www.desertcomfortmechanical.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/how_a_swamp_cooler_works.67102743_std.jpg


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: Qartersa on December 17, 2016, 06:54:51 PM
It's possible to use a cheap water AC, where water is sucked from a nearby pond or a well, flows in metal pipes in front of a fan and goes back to the pond. This system would eat up below 100W, but you'd need a water source and some skill to build it. Like this thing but industrial size.

I dont think it would produce a cold air inspite of letting the water from water source pass through that pipe.It wont guarantee it would give cool air anytime but i appreciate this kind of invention though. Well i cant conclude since i didnt experience to use or invent this.

That will infact produce a fair bit of cold air.
Or cooler air anyway, but most people do not have the setup for this.

It's actually looking to be a promising investment for a miner. This way miners will not have to buy expensive air conditioning units nor pay for the electricity of running them. I think this would cool the air it blows as the fan and metal pipes will absorb the hot air and the cool water inside the pipes will cool the air. Really nice invention. I wonder if this would also help cool my room on a hot sunny day.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: takagari on December 17, 2016, 10:24:47 PM
It's possible to use a cheap water AC, where water is sucked from a nearby pond or a well, flows in metal pipes in front of a fan and goes back to the pond. This system would eat up below 100W, but you'd need a water source and some skill to build it. Like this thing but industrial size.

I dont think it would produce a cold air inspite of letting the water from water source pass through that pipe.It wont guarantee it would give cool air anytime but i appreciate this kind of invention though. Well i cant conclude since i didnt experience to use or invent this.

That will infact produce a fair bit of cold air.
Or cooler air anyway, but most people do not have the setup for this.

It's actually looking to be a promising investment for a miner. This way miners will not have to buy expensive air conditioning units nor pay for the electricity of running them. I think this would cool the air it blows as the fan and metal pipes will absorb the hot air and the cool water inside the pipes will cool the air. Really nice invention. I wonder if this would also help cool my room on a hot sunny day.
Yes it would, if you are blowing air over anything cooler then the ambient air, then it will come off cooler
you could even get to a point where using water cooling on the miners tied tot hat system would be HUGELY effective.
But the initial setup cost would be HUGE


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: Qartersa on December 18, 2016, 04:25:36 AM
It's possible to use a cheap water AC, where water is sucked from a nearby pond or a well, flows in metal pipes in front of a fan and goes back to the pond. This system would eat up below 100W, but you'd need a water source and some skill to build it. Like this thing but industrial size.

I dont think it would produce a cold air inspite of letting the water from water source pass through that pipe.It wont guarantee it would give cool air anytime but i appreciate this kind of invention though. Well i cant conclude since i didnt experience to use or invent this.

That will infact produce a fair bit of cold air.
Or cooler air anyway, but most people do not have the setup for this.

It's actually looking to be a promising investment for a miner. This way miners will not have to buy expensive air conditioning units nor pay for the electricity of running them. I think this would cool the air it blows as the fan and metal pipes will absorb the hot air and the cool water inside the pipes will cool the air. Really nice invention. I wonder if this would also help cool my room on a hot sunny day.
Yes it would, if you are blowing air over anything cooler then the ambient air, then it will come off cooler
you could even get to a point where using water cooling on the miners tied tot hat system would be HUGELY effective.
But the initial setup cost would be HUGE

How about those liquid cooling system used for computers? Would those work for miners? I haven't seen anyone really make a liquid cooled miner so far. I think along with a fan which blows cool air, a liquid cooling device similar to computers would also be a good way to cool down miners while operating. Though, I think this would really be more expensive than air type coolers as this is already expensive on basic and gaming computer rigs.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: Biffa on December 18, 2016, 08:53:53 AM


How about those liquid cooling system used for computers? Would those work for miners? I haven't seen anyone really make a liquid cooled miner so far. I think along with a fan which blows cool air, a liquid cooling device similar to computers would also be a good way to cool down miners while operating. Though, I think this would really be more expensive than air type coolers as this is already expensive on basic and gaming computer rigs.

Bitmain made one called the C1

Costs too much money on top of the cost of the miner.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: takagari on December 18, 2016, 05:10:31 PM
It's possible to use a cheap water AC, where water is sucked from a nearby pond or a well, flows in metal pipes in front of a fan and goes back to the pond. This system would eat up below 100W, but you'd need a water source and some skill to build it. Like this thing but industrial size.

I dont think it would produce a cold air inspite of letting the water from water source pass through that pipe.It wont guarantee it would give cool air anytime but i appreciate this kind of invention though. Well i cant conclude since i didnt experience to use or invent this.

That will infact produce a fair bit of cold air.
Or cooler air anyway, but most people do not have the setup for this.

It's actually looking to be a promising investment for a miner. This way miners will not have to buy expensive air conditioning units nor pay for the electricity of running them. I think this would cool the air it blows as the fan and metal pipes will absorb the hot air and the cool water inside the pipes will cool the air. Really nice invention. I wonder if this would also help cool my room on a hot sunny day.
Yes it would, if you are blowing air over anything cooler then the ambient air, then it will come off cooler
you could even get to a point where using water cooling on the miners tied tot hat system would be HUGELY effective.
But the initial setup cost would be HUGE

How about those liquid cooling system used for computers? Would those work for miners? I haven't seen anyone really make a liquid cooled miner so far. I think along with a fan which blows cool air, a liquid cooling device similar to computers would also be a good way to cool down miners while operating. Though, I think this would really be more expensive than air type coolers as this is already expensive on basic and gaming computer rigs.

Nothing off the shelf really any more. It's been done
Really all the ant miner boards are so close that if someone made a large one. They could maybe be moved from miner to miner,
Although I don't believe you can easily remove heat sinks off the latest models anymore.....


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: isoneguy on December 19, 2016, 08:13:56 AM
You could still submerge your miners in mineral oil and set up a pump to circulate the oil through a cooler environment.

...probably the cheapest way to cool your miners imho.

compared to fancy AC systems and what not.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: takagari on December 19, 2016, 03:31:51 PM
You could still submerge your miners in mineral oil and set up a pump to circulate the oil through a cooler environment.

...probably the cheapest way to cool your miners imho.

compared to fancy AC systems and what not.

True. Some simple pumps.
Car radiator. Hard to stop from getting hot spots though


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: Sweminer777 on December 19, 2016, 03:43:40 PM
I've seen several people mention that using AC is not a good choice for Miner cooling, could someone explain why? (Don't worry, my current mining rig uses fans)
It will be increasing a lot your electricity cost, Over 15% in my opinions.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1348488.0
'


if you can make a 14mm or 16mm whit this, it would be superefficent that it will be able to have some sick overlocks as stock, maybe sp100 at 200thz or why not 300thz ?...

a fridge use like 80 watts and its alot bigger, a 80w + on the montly bitt on a sp100 , it would not harm anyone?, change the blocks whit liquid cooled and use the same system as the fridge?...

just saying 80watts for a fridge.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: takagari on December 19, 2016, 04:39:50 PM
I've seen several people mention that using AC is not a good choice for Miner cooling, could someone explain why? (Don't worry, my current mining rig uses fans)
It will be increasing a lot your electricity cost, Over 15% in my opinions.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1348488.0
'


if you can make a 14mm or 16mm whit this, it would be superefficent that it will be able to have some sick overlocks as stock, maybe sp100 at 200thz or why not 300thz ?...

a fridge use like 80 watts and its alot bigger, a 80w + on the montly bitt on a sp100 , it would not harm anyone?, change the blocks whit liquid cooled and use the same system as the fridge?...

just saying 80watts for a fridge.

I have no idea what you are getting at?
You can't stick a miner in a fridge...


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: NotFuzzyWarm on December 19, 2016, 04:40:49 PM
<headbang>
How many times does it have to be said? A refrigerator keeps cold things cold. They are not made to be heat-removal devices and have only a very small heat-removal capacity! That is why they use so little power.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: Sweminer777 on December 19, 2016, 04:51:09 PM
<headbang>
How many times does it have to be said? A refrigerator keeps cold things cold. They are not made to be heat-removal devices and have only a very small heat-removal capacity! That is why they use so little power.


actually a fridge is a AC, wich keeps things cool but also disipates heat depending on the build of the "fridge".
Why you dont feal heat comming out because it have passive cooling, you might feel the top of your fridge warm. wierd?.


Put som fans on the Passive cooling heat pippes you got some cooling on going.

besides if you put your machines inside of a cold starage they stil have own fans to disipate heat and suck in cold air.


maybe think outisde the box?.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: NotFuzzyWarm on December 19, 2016, 05:09:43 PM
You seem to have missed where I said
Quote
have only a very small heat-removal capacity
Yes they work the same as an air conditioner.
A very very small capacity one. As a systems designer I deal with heat movement equations all the time so perhaps you need to rethink the premise  of using a 'fridge... There is no 'out of the box thinking' required here, even knowing a smidgen about the thermodynamics involved says no.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: HagssFIN on December 19, 2016, 05:25:18 PM
Yeah. Stop to think physics for a moment and then think about cooling miners with a fridge.
It is a no-go.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: takagari on December 19, 2016, 06:06:10 PM
<headbang>
How many times does it have to be said? A refrigerator keeps cold things cold. They are not made to be heat-removal devices and have only a very small heat-removal capacity! That is why they use so little power.


actually a fridge is a AC, wich keeps things cool but also disipates heat depending on the build of the "fridge".
Why you dont feal heat comming out because it have passive cooling, you might feel the top of your fridge warm. wierd?.


Put som fans on the Passive cooling heat pippes you got some cooling on going.

besides if you put your machines inside of a cold starage they stil have own fans to disipate heat and suck in cold air.


maybe think outisde the box?.

Man you cracked it,
Why use a high power AC unit when a little 8 watt fridge can cool just as good?

Please stick your miners in a fridge, and let us know how that works out for you.
The capacity it has to cool is VERY low, which is why it relies on insulation.

I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to argue this with you?

Here do a test.
Stick a 1000watt space heater in your fridge, close it up and let it go.
Than report back to us how long it took for your fridges compressors to blow


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: Sweminer777 on December 19, 2016, 06:42:41 PM
<headbang>
How many times does it have to be said? A refrigerator keeps cold things cold. They are not made to be heat-removal devices and have only a very small heat-removal capacity! That is why they use so little power.


actually a fridge is a AC, wich keeps things cool but also disipates heat depending on the build of the "fridge".
Why you dont feal heat comming out because it have passive cooling, you might feel the top of your fridge warm. wierd?.


Put som fans on the Passive cooling heat pippes you got some cooling on going.

besides if you put your machines inside of a cold starage they stil have own fans to disipate heat and suck in cold air.


maybe think outisde the box?.







Man you cracked it,
Why use a high power AC unit when a little 8 watt fridge can cool just as good?

Please stick your miners in a fridge, and let us know how that works out for you.
The capacity it has to cool is VERY low, which is why it relies on insulation.

I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to argue this with you?

Here do a test.
Stick a 1000watt space heater in your fridge, close it up and let it go.
Than report back to us how long it took for your fridges compressors to blow




you all take this so directly, arent you supposed to be all enginers and mathematicians.


Like how the fuck is to hard to change the cooling system.


2fans and cut on alu blocks are cheap, for standard and non caring custommer.




Everyone gets their miners home and look how to improve efficience.
but nobody does the job?.


Poeple talking about renting cooled Service Centers to put their miners on.


So, if you can put AC on a big room why cant you put ac on a miner as big as the sp100?


the only optional cooling system was c1 and it was one of the best home miners of the times.


Now a home miner gotta sound like a jumbo jet.



Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: NotFuzzyWarm on December 19, 2016, 11:16:14 PM
Quote
So, if you can put AC on a big room why cant you put ac on a miner as big as the sp100?
the only optional cooling system was c1 and it was one of the best home miners of the times.
#1: there is no 'sp100' and never will be. Spondoolies-Tech imploded long ago.

As for closed-loop cooling of said 10kw load, it's called using an enclosure or other way to channel all of the airflow through an industrial equipment enclosure cooler. Ones using chilled water and having pretty hefty blower are readily available up to around 30kw heat load while holding air temp to under 85F though at this point far better off using cold plate to directly cool the boards.

Yes the heat problem is removed from the immediate area of the miner(s) but now you have to pump the water elsewhere use a way to chill the water back down to around 40-45F (standard preferred water inlet temps for coolers). That all costs $$$ in a very cost sensitive business. Great if you live in the Artic so ya can use a dry cooler or have a cool running stream nearby to tap into but otherwise means more electric used. If using cold plates, ja Sidehacks upcoming miners could easily be put on them. AFAIK, in fact they should fitup to the C1 water blocks :)

as for
Quote
Everyone gets their miners home and look how to improve efficience.
but nobody does the job?.
Modding the likes of a s7 or s9 to use cold plate is economically impossible. Removing the glued heat sinks is uber difficult without damaging things... If you want to start carving into a very expensive miner be my guest and let us know how it turns out. (seriously, a how-I-did-it would be a great addtion)


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: JaredKaragen on December 20, 2016, 10:51:38 PM
OK, finally time to share my secret for attaching a heat pump to a miner with 100% no loss in electricity to cool your farm:

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSNvj14Lt_vW0TxY4ePRtOxWF5OyINFTUpxbbas4dj_F1Bt-zDV2g

A company called Dometic used to manufacture refrigerators for mobile applications.  They are a sealed system, no pump, no electricity in as far as cooling is concerned compared to a typical heat pump.  All you need to do is apply heat to the reservoir, and the condenser will get cold.....  This unit can run on gas heat to keep the fridge not using coach batteries on it's 12V heating element.

So..... if you pipe the hot air into it's evaporator section, it gets cold on the other side..... which you can pump the cold air right back into the miner.

If you don't know how a sealed ammonia/hydrogen setup works... read up.....   During the summer my fridge on my RV takes almost zero electricity to stay cold.....

It was a tough concept for me to swallow originally when I saw it had no compressor... so I did my research on the matter and was impressed.

Now;  I know;  it's just a heat pump; and far from 100% efficiency,  but;  at zero electricity cost, you are almost neutralizing the heat generated by the miners in a manner of speaking.....

Thoughts?
*edit* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator)


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: NotFuzzyWarm on December 20, 2016, 11:48:27 PM
Just need to pay for the propane/natural gas...
For a low BTU system like a refrigerator the heat input (gas) needed is minimal. Remember - a 'fridge does not deal with a continuous heat source in it. Put something warm in it and it eventually gets cold but - the 'something' is not generating more heat - it's losing it. But - scale the system up to handle a continuous heat input of several kW and your are talking about a much higher CU-ft/min of gas need to fire the (literal) boiler that gives the pressure differential needed for cooling.

To use a line from Robert A. Heinlein, 'There Is No Free Lunch'.

It would rather be like me using my house permanent 13kw backup genset - fueled by natural gas - to power my miners. Yes direct electric usage from the Utility is now zero. The gas bill however... dunna wanna think about it!

edit: ja, any source of heat to boil the working fluid will work, wood, coal, hell, even focused sunlight. I may be dating myself but at least through the 1960's you could by NG/Propane gas power household refrigerators and air conditioners. Probably still can for off-grid locations.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: coolcoinz on December 21, 2016, 12:06:19 AM
That differential cooler is an interesting invention, especially for an apocalypse scenario. Allows you to keep food cold without electricity. And you don't even need propane/ natural gas. How about a coal furnace with auto feed? Much cheaper, can easily and constantly produce 20kW, which is enough energy to cool a large building. Of course you'd need a large enough heat pump to use all that energy.

Another idea is a heat pump with underground pipes, people use these things to cool down houses in summer.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: JaredKaragen on December 21, 2016, 12:33:12 AM
Just need to pay for the propane/natural gas...
For a low BTU system like a refrigerator the heat input (gas) needed is minimal. Remember - a 'fridge does not deal with a continuous heat source in it. Put something warm in it and it eventually gets cold but - the 'something' is not generating more heat - it's losing it. But - scale the system up to handle a continuous heat input of several kW and your are talking about a much higher CU-ft/min of gas need to fire the (literal) boiler that gives the pressure differential needed for cooling.

The expelled heat from the miners..... no need to spend on the gas when using a system that literally operates on warmth if you can design the unit to transfer the heat efficiently between the systems.   Granted;  usually its ~95*F+ that the system begins to work properly;  The miners can easily overcome this.  Check wikipedia on how the water/ammonia/hydrogen system works.  Pretty neat.

That differential cooler is an interesting invention, especially for an apocalypse scenario. Allows you to keep food cold without electricity. And you don't even need propane/ natural gas. How about a coal furnace with auto feed? Much cheaper, can easily and constantly produce 20kW, which is enough energy to cool a large building. Of course you'd need a large enough heat pump to use all that energy.

pretty insane once you think about it more and more.  The issue is the large set of pipes to dissipate bubbles/foaming in the system.  But Ill tell you this;  my ice box is just that;  I regularly have to shut it all off and chisel away tons of ice that builds up.



But I digress.  It's food for thought for sure.  I don't see why it wouldn't be possible at all.  The intake form the miners and exhaust from the miners will do all of the work;  you just have to pipe the air through the evaporator and condenser to the respective places and it should provide quite a temperature impact.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: NotFuzzyWarm on December 21, 2016, 12:49:43 AM
Welll...
Technically one could possibly get significant re-use of the miners waste heat to power a fair sized room air conditioner? Directly use the miners as the boilers by using cold plates with the fluid flowing through them.

Keeping even a chip/plate temp of say 50-60C should give a fair bit of energy to drive the expansion side cold heat exchanger and generate some cool air. Ja there is still a net-gain in local heat generated (again, TINFL) but would be interesting to do the math so see just what the numbers are. If the cool air is fed back to the miners then ALL of the energy input will end up as local heat. Even if that energy input is used to  cool a different area, you now have the heat input from that to deal with so still no Free Lunch methinks...

Nice lil' twist to using AC with coin mining eh?


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: veleten on December 21, 2016, 01:55:43 AM
wow what is the next idea going to be-oil miner baths to cool the ASICS?:)
wonder if it has been implemented, by the way
AC has to be as energy efficient as possible and current ones do not allow you to
cool it efficiently enough energy/efficiency wise
but anyhow it has to be calculated case by case,after all cooling is just additional energy cost added to your bills that delay ROI
there are some epic solutions and ideas in this thread,particularly the home made ac systems -feel they could be very useful if implemented correctly
100-200 W + a fan,metal pipe and assembly costs are low enogh to be worth trying it out


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: nydiacaskey01 on December 21, 2016, 02:04:32 AM
I heard that inverter type AC's consumes less energy that those industrial type fans. A church near my house refrained from using those ceiling type fans in installed inverter type AC's and energy consumed is almost the same but effect of course is different because using AC gives out colder air than fans specially in a tropical country where I am from.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: coolcoinz on December 22, 2016, 06:42:48 PM
Welll...
Technically one could possibly get significant re-use of the miners waste heat to power a fair sized room air conditioner? Directly use the miners as the boilers by using cold plates with the fluid flowing through them.

Keeping even a chip/plate temp of say 50-60C should give a fair bit of energy to drive the expansion side cold heat exchanger and generate some cool air. Ja there is still a net-gain in local heat generated (again, TINFL) but would be interesting to do the math so see just what the numbers are. If the cool air is fed back to the miners then ALL of the energy input will end up as local heat. Even if that energy input is used to  cool a different area, you now have the heat input from that to deal with so still no Free Lunch methinks...

Nice lil' twist to using AC with coin mining eh?
One could even go farther and make a deal with someone, who needs the heat and would be willing to pay for it, like farmers. As far as I know, hemp needs a steady, warm temperature and a bit of wind. This could be provided by the miners at constant rate to supply a fairly large greenhouse ;)


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: toptek on December 23, 2016, 01:03:42 AM
I've seen several people mention that using AC is not a good choice for Miner cooling, could someone explain why? (Don't worry, my current mining rig uses fans)

THe cost for some it is nice to use if you want the cost of using it unless you mean some kind of AC on the miners that may not be good i read some place because of how bad that might turn out due to how AC works but using AC in a AC controlled room if you can afford to might be the best way but it cost to much .


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: takagari on December 25, 2016, 12:45:55 AM
It comes down to power/cost

Regardless of what you think are cheap methods to cool.
For pure power, it costs about as much to heat the air From Temp Y to X as it would to then cool it from X back to Y.

There are cheaper options for cooling, if you have a cold source of water. etc. But generally it's not feasible without free power.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: coolcoinz on December 25, 2016, 05:16:03 PM
It comes down to power/cost

Regardless of what you think are cheap methods to cool.
For pure power, it costs about as much to heat the air From Temp Y to X as it would to then cool it from X back to Y.

There are cheaper options for cooling, if you have a cold source of water. etc. But generally it's not feasible without free power.

The most cost efficient way to cool miners is to directly connect the chips to a cold metal surface that would act as a radiator, and then use a big, low rpm fan to cool it. Multiple small fans make a lot of noise and consume a lot of power. And yes, you can efficiently do it without free power, you just have to live in cold climate. Think about the profits of heating your home with miners. I live in a house with a coal boiler and it burns close to 3t of coal every winter. That's over 600USD per winter. If I wanted to heat the house with natural gas it would cost me twice that.


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: notlist3d on December 26, 2016, 09:53:49 PM
It comes down to power/cost

Regardless of what you think are cheap methods to cool.
For pure power, it costs about as much to heat the air From Temp Y to X as it would to then cool it from X back to Y.

There are cheaper options for cooling, if you have a cold source of water. etc. But generally it's not feasible without free power.

Also depends on location evaporation cooling is great for some.  But for someone like me it does not work in my location due to climate.   I used high RPM fan's to push heat from miner's and a commercial grade exhaust as standard attic exhust did not cut it for the amount of gear I was mining.   Here is my old thread about dealing with summer for me - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1020826.0

And I used winter air in winter... as free and cold where I am so was great.  Summers were all about fan's for me.   AC just is expensive I could have never justified it with my bitcoin the more I expanded. 


Title: Re: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?
Post by: jstew on December 27, 2016, 09:11:55 PM
A typical AC works in the same way, it just uses much cooler pipes and radiators around them to increase the surface.
If the room temperature is for instance 30*C, the water from an outside source will be at least 10*C cooler. Passing air that is at 30* around the pipes that are at 20* will make it cooler, no doubt about it.
Similar technology is used in evaporative coolers, but they might not be suitable for mining because they increase humidity.
http://www.desertcomfortmechanical.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/how_a_swamp_cooler_works.67102743_std.jpg

i use evap coolers at my data center , the manner in which i have my racks arranged allow me to use 2x 6k cfm evaps to keep everything nice and cool in 100* ambient temps , and most of the time i do not need to run them on high speed , my coolers both have 2 speed motors which on high are 3/4 hp and low speed is 1/2 hp . 1hp = 745w. so they are very cheap to run.

evaps only work if ur average humidity were u are stays below 20% , in my area avg humidity is about 5% so they work extremely well. this higher ur humidity is on average in ur area the less effective the evap coolers get



the way my racks are setup i could actually remove the fans from my miners and the evaps would force the cool air threw the miner , i leave the fans on though