Bitcoin Forum

Background
As you may be aware, a user on SatoshiDice had a BIG win recently.

On January 11, 2017, Underdog01253 (user ID 2789717) (https://www.satoshidice.com/user/ed10cec930365a1af6db2225843f6e36) placed a bet of 0.25 BTC and won a x1215.92 multiplier to walk away with a whopping 303.73 BTC.

This bet was placed on SatoshiSlot which shares the same bankroll as SatoshiDice.


Here's the scam
SatoshiDice claims they employ the Kelly criterion to limit the maximum profit to 1.9% per bet.

How did they allow this user to win ~14% of the bankroll in a single bet?

You have quoted the maximum for Satoshi Dice and where is the maximum for Satohi Slots stated?

Also, I recommend to make screenshots of everything, terms and conditions, winner, etc.

SatoshiDice and SatoshiSlot are both accessible from satoshidice.com, SatoshiSlot does not have its own website.

The quote I gave is from the "Bet on the house" page where one can invest in the bankroll which is shared between SatoshiDice and SatoshiSlot.

I have made screenshots and can post them if requested. But anyone can see the terms without logging in by going to https://www.satoshidice.com/ and clicking "Bet on the house".

Your analysis of the wording raises another interesting point. It's not even clear that an investor is part of the SatoshiSlot bankroll in the first place. However, the loss on this day and a look at the recent big wins makes it undoubtedly clear that the bankroll is shared by both games.




I think this site is going down the drain. All the claims of lost balances lately and their unwillingness to ever offer support. Even their cold storage has been depleted lately and only holds about 2/3 of current bankroll (ignoring customer balances that are not in the investment)

Based on their terms and conditions, you invest only in Satoshi Dice. They offer Satoshi Dice and Satoshi Slot, but they speak only about the possibility to invest in Satoshi Dice and not one word about to invest in Satoshi Slot.

How much is the house edge for Satoshi Slot?

I mean they do not expect that anyone will initiate legal action, so they write any kind of not valid or uncomplete nonsense in the terms and conditions.


It does not matter if they have only 2/3 left. Only a few victims will claim and first come first serve.


1) "Welcome to Satoshi Dice - The Original and Best Bitcoin Betting Game"

-> this statement on their website confirms that they speak about the Satoshi Dice game and not about Satoshi Dice as the website operator

2) "Satoshidice.com is operating under the gaming licence 1668/JAZ"

-> this confirms that the website operator is satoshidice.com and not Satoshi Dice




 

The edge on the slot game is higher than on the dice, so the Kelly criterion allows higher bets.

The SatoshiSlot has a theoretical payout percentage of 96.5%. This however cannot be determined to the same precision as the dice, as in the slot the RTP/edge is calculated by a simulation, known as the "theoretical payout percentage" or RTP, "return to player".
The max bet on the slot game is not automated as on the dice, it has to be done manually. The slot game has many paylines, it doesn't really work well if the bet sizes on the slot game would be in increments of 14.235, 18.503, 26.322 instead of 10, 15, 25 ect.

There are similar wins with lower bets. Overall, Satoshidice paid out more than the expected value to investors since the start, meaning that the bets actually generated more to investors than the expected outcome.

If the bankroll decreases further or more investors have an opinion about it, we will lower the max bet.

Your story about Satoshi Slot has nothing to do with the story stated in your "Bet on the house" terms and conditions:

1) "You have the opportunity to be part of Satoshi Dice's bankroll" -> not one word about to be part of Satoshi Slot's bankroll

2) "Satoshi Dice keeps the maximum profit a player can make on a bet to 1.9% of the bankroll (employing the Kelly criterion)."

-> again not one word about Satoshi Slot

3) You: "The SatoshiSlot has a theoretical payout percentage of 96.5%" = 3,5% house edge

Not that it would play any role, but how much is the maximum profit a player can make on a bet on Satoshi Slot?

4) No Satoshi Slot terms and conditions and therefore no idea based on what investors would be part of Satoshi Slot's bankroll?

Please quote the relevant to be part of Satoshi Slot's bankroll terms and conditions?

Btw, how much is the house edge for Dice?

its all a scam to suck more users in

It is very fishy, I doubt the player is hacker or the insider rat in the site, maybe the site owner wants to scam the bankroll, you know no one would place 0.25BTC for spinning a slot, even high rollers won't gamble like this.

Thanks for showing me this thread, I will never invest in SatoshiDice.

That is really scary if the admin decided to bet on his own site and rip off investor funds, better to invest your money somewhere else.

If the player placed a bet of 0.25BTC and won a x1215.92 multiplier well this is not a joke amount of winning. Its a big amount of bitcoin take note not satoshi. I don't know if this is only a way of hyping the people just to seek more player to play in the games. Do you have any proof of this things?

According to their announcement thread on bitcointalk SatoshiDice's betting conditions are: "Bet options are available with up to 64,000x multiples and a house edge of only 1.9%"
But opening post of that thread wasn't edited for a long time, so the info about house edge might not be accurate anymore.

According to their investment page the edge on dice is 1.9%. This agrees with their payout of x2.00003 when less than 32145 (49.049% chance)

A player made this bet and won, it is publicly viewable in the "big wins, last 30 days" list. I do not advocate playing or investing at satoshidice. In fact, I advocate the opposite; this site has gone to shit and everyone should cash out immediately.

This is bullshit, the game designer can determine the exact RTP because they programmed it; no casino would run a game on which they did not know their exact return. You deceive investors into thinking you are employing a legitimate Kelly criterion strategy but clearly there are no fucks given about your legitimacy. It's about time SatoshiDice went the way of the dodo, you've made Erik a sad man.

Thank you for the info.

This confirms that investors do not invest in Satoshi Slot, because the house edge for slot is 3,5% and in the "Bet on the house" terms and conditions is nothing metioned about a 3,5% house edge.

If investors get their account balance reduced because of house losses, is it stated what kind of game (dice or slot) caused this house loss?


When I click your link, it shows only the recent rolls for the past minutes. Do you have any other source for his win?

Based on what do Satoshi Slot share the same bankroll as Satoshi Dice?

No. The only reason I was able to find this out is because the bet showed up on the public big wins table.

https://s29.postimg.org/96aku5fev/Big_Win.png
You can see these stats live by going to big wins and clicking last 30 days.

1) Knowing my investor balance before and after that day.
2) Seeing this win of 303 BTC that correlated to the amount of site bankroll lost.

If Satoshidice would prove to run scam or default after an attack, that would be a a massive hit to bitcoin gambling community as the site is considered bitcoin gambling de-facto game.

Right now https://www.satoshidice.com/ returns 504 Gateway Time out error, any news on that?

Let's hope for the best.

~BitWAB Team~
Be the winner!

Thank you for the info!

I summed it up here: Satoshidice scam, 500+ Bitcoins defrauded and disappeared! (https://game-protect.com/satoshidice-scam/) If you have something to add, please leave a reply below the article.

I can inform that take Satoshi Slot losses out of the investor account is 100% sure a scam, as it is nowhere mentioned in the "Bet on the house" terms and conditions that investors are part of Satoshi Slot's bankroll.

 :-\ beware guys remember all gambling are same.All gambling games are bot not human playing.

"Here's the scam": Your quote about the Kelly criterion to limit the maximum profit to 1.9% per bet is in regards to Satoshi Dice only.

There are no terms and conditions in regards to Satoshi Slots, therefore a slot player can win whatever he likes. :)

The criminal offense is to reduce this 303 BTC slot win from investor balances!

Did they meanwhile put the Satoshi Slot loss reduction back to your investor balance?

I remember when Satoshi Dice scammed the shit out of me when their Company's shares were being sold on BTC-TC and Havelock.

Not surprised to see this.  Erik Voorhees is a piece of shit.

How did they scam you and how much was your damage?

First, the background:

August 26, 2016: Reports of leaked BTC-e accounts being attacked (https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4zqnc1/is_it_just_me_or_is_a_mass_btce_account_list_from/).

September 1, 2016: Leakedsource.com lists BTC-e and Bitcointalk accounts as available to hackers (http://archive.is/LNZgJ)
https://www.hackread.com/hacked-bitcointalk-forum-database-on-dark-web/

November 20, 2016: 2plus2 forum hacked
https://www.pokernews.com/news/2017/01/twoplustwo-discovers-user-database-hack-jan-8-26740.htm
December 24 2016: Betking.io hack hacked (http://archive.is/vbPAr)

December 27 2016 - January 9 2017: Whale accounts login and withdraw.
Whoever the person was that withdrew had the account details. The account emails were all present in one or more of the btc-e, 2plus2 and betking.io hacks mentioned above.

February-March 2017: 2fa implemented and whale accounts reimbursed plus the profit from their investments.

Regarding the 300 BTC Slot game win

January 11, 2017,The player  Underdog01253 (https://www.satoshidice.com/user/ed10cec930365a1af6db2225843f6e36) made a large win on the slot game. People have been wondering how such a large win could be allowed from the bankroll. The max bet amount on the slot game is not dynamic as on the dice, it has to be done manually. The slot game has many paylines, it doesn't really work well if the bet sizes on the slot game would be in increments of 14.235, 18.503, 26.322 instead of 10, 15, 25 ect.

With the Bitcoin price increasing rapidly and many users withdrawing from the bankroll, the Slot game ended up allowing relatively large wagers. Overall, Satoshidice paid out more than the expected value to investors since the start, meaning that the bets actually generated more to investors than the expected outcome.




To answer Game-Protect point’s directly:

For security reasons it advisable not to have a large sum of coins in a hot wallet. When the hot wallet needs funds we have to manually transfer coins from our cold storage. Because of this and the increase in withdrawals due to the btc price increase and naturally investors wishing to take advantage of this.
This was due to a combination of factors. The 4 investors were connected albeit coincidentally by the following. All compromised account emails were present in one or more of the btc-e, 2plus2 and betking.io hacks.
The below time line gives more detail  to game protects’ analysis.
August 26, 2016: Reports of leaked BTC-e accounts being attacked (https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4zqnc1/is_it_just_me_or_is_a_mass_btce_account_list_from/).

September 1, 2016: Leakedsource.com lists BTC-e and Bitcointalk accounts as available to hackers (http://archive.is/LNZgJ)
https://www.hackread.com/hacked-bitcointalk-forum-database-on-dark-web/

November 20, 2016: 2plus2 forum hacked
https://www.pokernews.com/news/2017/01/twoplustwo-discovers-user-database-hack-jan-8-26740.htm
December 24 2016: Betking.io hack hacked (http://archive.is/vbPAr)

December 27 2016 - January 9 2017: 4 Investor accounts login and withdraw.
Whoever the person was that withdrew had the account details. The account emails were all present in one or more of the btc-e, 2plus2 and betking.io hacks mentioned above.


There is no evidence of the servers being compromised. Part of the work is to exclude that the accounts in question simply made a withdrawal and then stated that they didn't make the withdrawal.

We got one report of a user who clicked a Bitcointalk phishing link, entered his information and then got his balance stolen on Satoshidice.

We have seen attempts of password guessing on what appears to be big lists of emails. We do not store password in clear text in the database but we looked at real-time password attempts and there thousands of login attempts made with different emails and password "password". All those IP addresses are blocked and stored for future evidence.

There is a large bet history for the user “Underdog01253”. The user continued to play and lost ~3/4 of their winnings

We did not update our description on the “Bet on the House” tab when we added the Satoshi Slot game to the site. This was an error, of course on our part. However, it is worth noting:
It was was the description that should have been updated, not the Terms & Conditions as agreed to when a user creates an account.
Long term backers affected by the big Slot win were also affected positively overall.


We of course took responsibility for the lack of 2fa on player accounts and reimbursed the 4 investors (including their profits) and players that were impacted by the lack of 2fa.
2FA was then implemented with additional security measures

The long term backers affected by the big slot win were affected positively by the slot bets before and after the big win:
https://www.megadice.com/images/graph.jpg
Overall, SatoshiSlot has given over 150 BTC to backers.

O.k., I understand that it is not adviseable to have a large sum of coins in a hot wallet.

What I do not understand is

1) Why you need so long to re-fill the hot wallet?

2) Why was the person who "hacked" those 4 accounts able to withdraw the 200+ instantly, while others were not able to withdraw 5 BTC?

I mean you said for security reasons the hot wallet had not large amounts, but curiously your security did not work for the 200+ defrauded BTC?


We can not check what happened on your gaming server and we can not check if the by you mentioned events are anyhow related to the 200+ disappeared BTC.

What remains is that your security feature "low hot wallet amounts" failed exactly for those 4 accounts!


You can see in the server logs what happened. If the customer logged in directly, if there were hacking attempts trying multiple passwords, if the 4 "compromised" accounts used the same IP, devices, etc. Server admin can check this within 1 day.


No one of us can check if this user really exists. Bet histories are irrelevant, as you can simply manipulate them! As we all know, your licensor Curacao eGaming do not control anything.

If you consider that

1) You destroyed a $12 million paid domain

2) Investors had started to withdraw 100s of invested BTC

3) Customers were not able to withdraw in a timely manner

4) 200+ BTC disappeared and instantly withdrawn, even though you had the security system of low hot wallet amounts

5) MegaDice obviously blatant lies

6) A new account registered, placed a $250 slot bet! and instantly won a x1215.92 multiplier 303 BTC slot and contrary to your terms and conditions, then everyone can think his part. I never said this was an inside job, because I have no proof, but everyone can think what this might was...


This is the only part where I call you a scam, because I have proof of this scam!

You have 2 descriptions of how investors bet on the house?

1) "Bet on the House" description

2) Bet on the House description in your Terms & Conditions

Even if you had 2 descriptions (what I doubt), the publicly visible 1) "Bet on the House" description is applicable.
 


Your argument it was o.k. to reduce the 303 BTC slot win from Dice investor balances, because longtherm backers were not affected is absolute nonsense!

If someone started to invest 2 weeks ago?

Despite of this, I was informed that no one knows what profits he received or losses were reduced from his Dice investor account balance.