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Bitcoin => Bitcoin Discussion => Topic started by: Nathan047 on February 15, 2017, 02:26:42 AM



Title: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Nathan047 on February 15, 2017, 02:26:42 AM
So, currently in electrum, the recommended fee to get a transaction included in the next block, is 0.001835 BTC/kb. Thats 1.85$ PER KILOBYTE.

Now, to be fair, that is the recommended fee to get the transaction as soon as possible, but think of it this way:
I go to buy a cup of coffee and want to pay in bitcoin. I pay them but need to wait  some time for the transaction (obviously the coffee shop would want to receive a few confirmations on the transaction so they're sure I don't leave with a free coffee). Lets say I pay a high fee to get the transaction done soon, for this example lets say I paid a 1.85$ fee (and remember that is the recommended fee is per kilobyte, that's not the recommended total fee), now I've got to wait like 10 minutes and pay a dollar or two just to pay for a coffee with bitcoin (and remember that a few dollars is a high price to pay as a fee to buy something for a few dollars).

And this is in the current network. In order for me to pay for a coffee with bitcoin we'd probably need the mass adoption everybody seems convinced will happen. With mass adoption mean WAY more transactions on the network than now, and I feel mass adoption would cause the user base to grow much faster than the network (most of the people using bitcoin now are probably good with technology and would consider mining or hosting a node, if everybody joined then we probably wouldn't have a user base like that). Think of the kind of fees then.

I'd think that this should be a problem that is on the minds of the developers, and it probably is, so, what's the plan? Or perhaps there's already a plan coming to action and I'm just unaware of it. Anyway, please elaborate on this.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: shinratensei_ on February 15, 2017, 02:38:05 AM
Increasing the bitcoin blocksize .
There have planted to fixing the problem of bitcoin as you can see. SegWit, BU, 8MB blocks.
coin.dance/blocks
 ::) ::) ::)

But its competition is really strict.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Holliday on February 15, 2017, 02:47:21 AM
Transactions are almost instant. Confirmations depend on the competition to be included in the next block. That competition is what is going to have to secure the network moving forward. The sooner everyone realizes this, the better.

The days of free and ridiculously inexpensive Bitcoin transactions are slowly coming to an end. Many early adopters have turned into spoiled brats thanks to the early days of large block subsidies.

Bitcoin's unique properties allow censorship-proof transactions and a seize-proof store of value. There is going to be heavy competition to access these unique properties as authorities around the world continue the war on cash and proceed to implement increasingly strict capital controls.

People are going to have to compete to have their transaction included in the global decentralized immutable ledger. That is a good thing for everyone (as it will pay for network security) except those crybabies who think Bitcoin was designed for fast, cheap micro-payments.

Every transaction does not need to be censorship-proof as long as the option exists. Pay for your coffee with something else.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Peter R on February 15, 2017, 03:01:28 AM
@Holliday:

It is true that maximizing fees in aggregate will tend to maximize network hash power (security), but it does not follow that high fees per transaction would achieve that.  A large volume of low-fee transactions may generate more fees in aggregate than a smaller volume of high-fee transactions.  It comes down to the shape of the demand curve, many decades from now.  One thing that is clear though is that the future demand curve will be greater if bitcoin has more users then than if it has fewer. 

Erik Voorhees wrote a good article a few days ago on this topic:

http://moneyandstate.com/the-parable-of-alpha-a-lesson-in-network-effect-game-theory/


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Holliday on February 15, 2017, 03:14:14 AM
One thing that is clear though is that the future demand curve will be greater if bitcoin has more users then than if it has fewer. 

If Bitcoin does not retain it's unique properties in an attempt to accommodate "mainstream" usage, it's just a cumbersome PayPal, and no one is willing to use that.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Peter R on February 15, 2017, 03:23:19 AM
One thing that is clear though is that the future demand curve will be greater if bitcoin has more users then than if it has fewer. 

If Bitcoin does not retain it's unique properties in an attempt to accommodate "mainstream" usage, it's just a cumbersome PayPal, and no one is willing to use that.

I think everyone agrees with that.  Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer electronic cash system.  If it stops being useful as that (or turns into something else completely), then less people will use it.  Ultimately, the evolution of the network is up to network participants to decide.  I'm signalling to miners that I'm ready for bigger blocks by running a node which permits up to 16 MB today.  I do this because I think the biggest problem facing Bitcoin at the moment is the unreliable confirmations and high fees.  If in the future, Bitcoin faces another problem, I'll turn my attention to that. 


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Holliday on February 15, 2017, 03:28:42 AM
I'm signalling to miners that I'm ready for bigger blocks by running a node which permits up to 16 MB today

Good lord, you must pay a small fortune for internet service.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Xester on February 15, 2017, 03:37:20 AM
So, currently in electrum, the recommended fee to get a transaction included in the next block, is 0.001835 BTC/kb. Thats 1.85$ PER KILOBYTE.

Now, to be fair, that is the recommended fee to get the transaction as soon as possible, but think of it this way:
I go to buy a cup of coffee and want to pay in bitcoin. I pay them but need to wait  some time for the transaction (obviously the coffee shop would want to receive a few confirmations on the transaction so they're sure I don't leave with a free coffee). Lets say I pay a high fee to get the transaction done soon, for this example lets say I paid a 1.85$ fee (and remember that is the recommended fee is per kilobyte, that's not the recommended total fee), now I've got to wait like 10 minutes and pay a dollar or two just to pay for a coffee with bitcoin (and remember that a few dollars is a high price to pay as a fee to buy something for a few dollars).

And this is in the current network. In order for me to pay for a coffee with bitcoin we'd probably need the mass adoption everybody seems convinced will happen. With mass adoption mean WAY more transactions on the network than now, and I feel mass adoption would cause the user base to grow much faster than the network (most of the people using bitcoin now are probably good with technology and would consider mining or hosting a node, if everybody joined then we probably wouldn't have a user base like that). Think of the kind of fees then.

I'd think that this should be a problem that is on the minds of the developers, and it probably is, so, what's the plan? Or perhaps there's already a plan coming to action and I'm just unaware of it. Anyway, please elaborate on this.

You dont need to wait until the confirmation will finish and the payment in bitcoin will appear in your balance. What it needs is that there is a transaction that has been done and the transfer is ongoing. If I am a merchant I will not think of it as a problem I will give my products to him even if the transaction is unconfirmed. Sooner or later it will be confirmed and will appear on my balance.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Vaskiy on February 15, 2017, 03:49:39 AM
So, currently in electrum, the recommended fee to get a transaction included in the next block, is 0.001835 BTC/kb. Thats 1.85$ PER KILOBYTE.

Now, to be fair, that is the recommended fee to get the transaction as soon as possible, but think of it this way:
I go to buy a cup of coffee and want to pay in bitcoin. I pay them but need to wait  some time for the transaction (obviously the coffee shop would want to receive a few confirmations on the transaction so they're sure I don't leave with a free coffee). Lets say I pay a high fee to get the transaction done soon, for this example lets say I paid a 1.85$ fee (and remember that is the recommended fee is per kilobyte, that's not the recommended total fee), now I've got to wait like 10 minutes and pay a dollar or two just to pay for a coffee with bitcoin (and remember that a few dollars is a high price to pay as a fee to buy something for a few dollars).

And this is in the current network. In order for me to pay for a coffee with bitcoin we'd probably need the mass adoption everybody seems convinced will happen. With mass adoption mean WAY more transactions on the network than now, and I feel mass adoption would cause the user base to grow much faster than the network (most of the people using bitcoin now are probably good with technology and would consider mining or hosting a node, if everybody joined then we probably wouldn't have a user base like that). Think of the kind of fees then.

I'd think that this should be a problem that is on the minds of the developers, and it probably is, so, what's the plan? Or perhaps there's already a plan coming to action and I'm just unaware of it. Anyway, please elaborate on this.

You dont need to wait until the confirmation will finish and the payment in bitcoin will appear in your balance. What it needs is that there is a transaction that has been done and the transfer is ongoing. If I am a merchant I will not think of it as a problem I will give my products to him even if the transaction is unconfirmed. Sooner or later it will be confirmed and will appear on my balance.
Such confirmation delay doesn't create any issue. As mentioned when the amount gets deducted we can have a confirmation that amount is sent. But recent days the backlogs of transaction was increasing day to day from 300000 btc transactions to 900000btc transactions pending without confirmation in a very small time scale.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: AgentofCoin on February 15, 2017, 03:58:50 AM
One thing that is clear though is that the future demand curve will be greater if bitcoin has more users then than if it has fewer.  

If Bitcoin does not retain it's unique properties in an attempt to accommodate "mainstream" usage, it's just a cumbersome PayPal, and no one is willing to use that.

I think everyone agrees with that.  Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer electronic cash system.  If it stops being useful as that (or turns into something else completely), then less people will use it.  ...  I do this because I think the biggest problem facing Bitcoin at the moment is the unreliable confirmations and high fees.  If in the future, Bitcoin faces another problem, I'll turn my attention to that.  

I do not believe people use Bitcoin because it is a p2p e-cash system.
They mostly use it because it works outside of governmental control or censorship.
In fact, its origins and revelation was within the cypherpunk sphere which has no
interest in e-cash, but the idea of true unrestricted e-exchange.

Though Satoshi intended Bitcoin to be a true p2p e-cash system originally, it
quickly became evident that it would not be possible without major sacrifices.
When the 1MB cap was placed into the code it was an admission that not all
factors had been fully anticipated prior to release, though he worked on it for years.

For Satoshi's original dream to come true today, too much will be lost with a very
likely possibility of experiment failure. If we can hold off for a few more years, maybe 5 to 10,
then enough time will have passed for technology to properly allow a block size increase and
maintain the same amount of censorship resistance and unregulatability.

I support on-chain scaling, but within reason and without sacrifices to what makes Bitcoin special.

Satoshi's greatest failure may be that the Bitcoin idea is really designed for 2035 and beyond,
and he was 26 years too early. Which shows great vision, but leaves us with the problems and
limitations of our time.

Edit: typos


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: btccashacc on February 15, 2017, 04:10:07 AM
You dont need to wait until the confirmation will finish and the payment in bitcoin will appear in your balance. What it needs is that there is a transaction that has been done and the transfer is ongoing. If I am a merchant I will not think of it as a problem I will give my products to him even if the transaction is unconfirmed. Sooner or later it will be confirmed and will appear on my balance.
But the reality is many merchants require us to wait our transaction at least get 1 confirmation, and you know what sometimes it took many times even though i pay recommended fee, and it's really bother me, well maybe someone's fee higher than me cause i know that miners usually include transactions with the highest fees first. I don't mind with that but it would be a problem for merchants that accept bitcoin as a form of payment, the reason is avoid the likelihood of losses also to prevent people from double spending.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: BitcoinNewsMagazine on February 15, 2017, 04:10:34 AM
So, currently in electrum, the recommended fee to get a transaction included in the next block, is 0.001835 BTC/kb. Thats 1.85$ PER KILOBYTE.

Now, to be fair, that is the recommended fee to get the transaction as soon as possible, but think of it this way:
I go to buy a cup of coffee and want to pay in bitcoin. I pay them but need to wait  some time for the transaction (obviously the coffee shop would want to receive a few confirmations on the transaction so they're sure I don't leave with a free coffee). Lets say I pay a high fee to get the transaction done soon, for this example lets say I paid a 1.85$ fee (and remember that is the recommended fee is per kilobyte, that's not the recommended total fee), now I've got to wait like 10 minutes and pay a dollar or two just to pay for a coffee with bitcoin (and remember that a few dollars is a high price to pay as a fee to buy something for a few dollars).

And this is in the current network. In order for me to pay for a coffee with bitcoin we'd probably need the mass adoption everybody seems convinced will happen. With mass adoption mean WAY more transactions on the network than now, and I feel mass adoption would cause the user base to grow much faster than the network (most of the people using bitcoin now are probably good with technology and would consider mining or hosting a node, if everybody joined then we probably wouldn't have a user base like that). Think of the kind of fees then.

I'd think that this should be a problem that is on the minds of the developers, and it probably is, so, what's the plan? Or perhaps there's already a plan coming to action and I'm just unaware of it. Anyway, please elaborate on this.

Have you read the Bitcoin Capacity Increases FAQ (https://bitcoincore.org/en/2015/12/23/capacity-increases-faq/) published by Bitcoin Core? Segregated Witness will double transactions per second all miners have to do is upgrade to Bitcoin Core 0.13.1 or newer to signal a yes vote for SegWit. Bitcoin Unlimited supporters are trying to block adoption of SegWit so it is a political football unfortunately. You could already be enjoying lower fees if miners would just adopt SegWit.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: kingcolex on February 15, 2017, 04:23:13 AM
The issue is the community won't decided on plan A or B and it becomes A vs B and neither passes. I bet the block size will stay the same and high fees for priority transactions will become the norm and it won't be used for standard transactions but more large amounts. Cheaper transactions will just either be off chain through a service provider (unwise but people campaign for it) or an altcoin like Litecoin or Dash (oh no I said altcoin).


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Wind_FURY on February 15, 2017, 04:31:56 AM
One thing that is clear though is that the future demand curve will be greater if bitcoin has more users then than if it has fewer. 

If Bitcoin does not retain it's unique properties in an attempt to accommodate "mainstream" usage, it's just a cumbersome PayPal, and no one is willing to use that.

Politics aside, what is wrong with a payment layer built on top of the Bitcoin network? The possibilities for Bitcoin has become wider if there was a LN type network layer that could handle unlimited transactions and say could also become a bridge between blockchains. Real anonymous transactions could also be implemented. Why stop it just because "it does not retain its unique properties"? It is still there, you can still do transactions onchain.  


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: samuraijin on February 15, 2017, 04:37:50 AM
I have the same mindset that we need something that is good for the future both in the bitcoin transaction fee and can be confirmed quickly, the problem can actually be solved if the great man bitcoin make changes


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: kingcolex on February 15, 2017, 04:42:11 AM
I have the same mindset that we need something that is good for the future both in the bitcoin transaction fee and can be confirmed quickly, the problem can actually be solved if the great man bitcoin make changes

Great man Bitcoin? Who might that be? Last I checked anyone can make changes to Bitcoin it just depends if the group as a whole is willing to follow.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Holliday on February 15, 2017, 05:05:18 AM
One thing that is clear though is that the future demand curve will be greater if bitcoin has more users then than if it has fewer. 

If Bitcoin does not retain it's unique properties in an attempt to accommodate "mainstream" usage, it's just a cumbersome PayPal, and no one is willing to use that.

Politics aside, what is wrong with a payment layer built on top of the Bitcoin network? The possibilities for Bitcoin has become wider if there was a LN type network layer that could handle unlimited transactions and say could also become a bridge between blockchains. Real anonymous transactions could also be implemented. Why stop it just because "it does not retain its unique properties"? It is still there, you can still do transactions onchain.  

Where did I suggest that a layer could not be built on top of Bitcoin? Quite the opposite, keeping the underlying protocol and network lean and robust while scaling via additional layers (which could be peeled away if necessary) is probably the only solution which will allow Bitcoin to retain those unique properties.

My comment was clearly directed towards the idea that on-chain scaling via a massive block size increase is a viable solution.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: densuj on February 15, 2017, 05:06:25 AM
I think segwit is plan to fix slow transaction and high fees from developers,
unfortunately it is not activated because there are some people ( what I know the miners )
who disagree with activation of segwit and they won't update the software.
So we must wait and see other solution and what is the best can be accepted
by all of comunity of bitcoin until this problem finish.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: pooya87 on February 15, 2017, 05:14:37 AM
So, currently in electrum, the recommended fee to get a transaction included in the next block, is 0.001835 BTC/kb. Thats 1.85$ PER KILOBYTE.

that amount is for 1 KiloByte transaction size. a normal transaction is 1/5 of that amount making the highest fee (according to Electrum suggestion) about 0.00035119BTC or $0.35

with that said fees are high and have been rising at an alarming rate. and the "plan to fix" it seems to be just waiting around to see if miners decide to accept one of the proposals or not. which they seem to be more than happy about the higher fee situation aka fee war.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Kakmakr on February 15, 2017, 05:17:19 AM
As a creative coffee shop owner, I would find ways to work around that, for instance : I will train my staff to educate people on signing up for a service like Xapo where the transactions are instant and basically free. My regulars will then have no problem paying for their daily coffee and I would help with adoption.

I will even give discount on people paying with Bitcoin. < 10% less per cup of coffee and first 10 cups free, if you signup for Xapo >

This is not the ideal solution but it is a option until they solve the scaling problems.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Jewell on February 15, 2017, 06:43:32 AM
The issue is the community won't decided on plan A or B and it becomes A vs B and neither passes. I bet the block size will stay the same and high fees for priority transactions will become the norm and it won't be used for standard transactions but more large amounts. Cheaper transactions will just either be off chain through a service provider (unwise but people campaign for it) or an altcoin like Litecoin or Dash (oh no I said altcoin).
i think it is very much necessary to have some special rules for that and all the government have to follow that rules strickly and only after taking permission after certain conditions they will be able to increase the transaction fee.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Dudeperfect on February 15, 2017, 07:35:29 AM
It's really one of the complicated and important issues. I think we should find the solution for it as soon as possible, because today using bitcoin for local transactions is proving costly as many goods (daily needs) are available at the price of bitcoin transaction fees so why someone would pay it as fees if he can directly purchase those goods at that price. Fortunately, using bitcoin on international level is still cheaper than other payment options.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Amph on February 15, 2017, 07:39:09 AM
it's simple don't buy coffee with bitcoin until they fix the scalability issue, bitcoin is not currently suited for microtransaction, even with the fee of 10k satoshi it was still bad to send 100k satoshi to pay 1/10 in fee

so it's not even a problem related to the 1mb block restriction, bitcoin was always bad at microtransaction, and this will be more true the more the value go up

in theory the average fee in satoshi should be lower the more the value increase not that it remain the same, otherwise when bitcoin will reach 100k one day, you will have to pay $100 to send $1000 which is beyond retarded


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: CraigWrightBTC on February 15, 2017, 07:43:46 AM
The developers has plan but it is hard to be done,
as bitcoin's user I don't have any plan to fix slow transaction and high fees.
I don't have any choice except what I have to do waiting transaction up to be confirmed
and pay the fees although it is expensive.  ;D


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Flyskyhigh on February 15, 2017, 02:51:30 PM
Could use a different coin that's 20x faster and 20x cheaper like MINT. I think the problem is trying to make Bitcoin all things to all people. Trying to do everything is impossible for any 1 currency to do.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Kprawn on February 15, 2017, 05:51:12 PM
it's simple don't buy cofee with bitcoin until they fix the scalability issue, bitcoin is not currently suited for microtransaction, even with the fee of 10k satoshi it was still bad to send 100k satoshi to pay 1/10 in fee

so it's not even a problem related to the 1mb block restriction, bitcoin was always bad at microtransaction, and this will be more true the more the value go up

in theory the average fee in satoshi showld be lower the more the value increase not that it remain the same, otherwise when bitcoin will reach 100k oen day, you will have to pay $100 to send $1 which is beyond retarded

No I strongly disagree with that statement... if we cannot buy coffee with Bitcoin, then Bitcoin failed as a currency token. Satoshi developed

Bitcoin to replace fiat payment networks, and now you want to tell people not to use it to buy certain products? I would just change the way I

use Bitcoin. { Issue vouchers to customers : Buy $10 worth of vouchers and then subtract coffee as customer visit your shop... this will result

in return business too... because people who have not used up all their vouchers will return to use it again. }  ;D


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: kingcolex on February 16, 2017, 02:12:06 AM
As a creative coffee shop owner, I would find ways to work around that, for instance : I will train my staff to educate people on signing up for a service like Xapo where the transactions are instant and basically free. My regulars will then have no problem paying for their daily coffee and I would help with adoption.

I will even give discount on people paying with Bitcoin. < 10% less per cup of coffee and first 10 cups free, if you signup for Xapo >

This is not the ideal solution but it is a option until they solve the scaling problems.
Like I said earlier off chain and through a third party which I think is majorly dangerous. The customer has to use it like a going out wallet that he doesn't control, who is stopping Xapo from being the next company to have shit security and lose your money? So having to guess how much you'll need for the day and not too much as you don't want to risk losing it. For the shop owner, how often do you empty it? What happens if Xapo changes their terms and starts taking a cut per transaction, who do you switch to how do you get your customers to adapt?


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Wind_FURY on February 16, 2017, 02:47:06 AM
One thing that is clear though is that the future demand curve will be greater if bitcoin has more users then than if it has fewer. 

If Bitcoin does not retain it's unique properties in an attempt to accommodate "mainstream" usage, it's just a cumbersome PayPal, and no one is willing to use that.

Politics aside, what is wrong with a payment layer built on top of the Bitcoin network? The possibilities for Bitcoin has become wider if there was a LN type network layer that could handle unlimited transactions and say could also become a bridge between blockchains. Real anonymous transactions could also be implemented. Why stop it just because "it does not retain its unique properties"? It is still there, you can still do transactions onchain.  

Where did I suggest that a layer could not be built on top of Bitcoin? Quite the opposite, keeping the underlying protocol and network lean and robust while scaling via additional layers (which could be peeled away if necessary) is probably the only solution which will allow Bitcoin to retain those unique properties.

My comment was clearly directed towards the idea that on-chain scaling via a massive block size increase is a viable solution.

Good. I am glad we are on the same page. Smaller blocks and network layers on top might also be the solution for the developers and Bitcoin thinkers who want to utilize sidechains. Whatever politically motivated criticisms they throw at Core, I still believe in the direction where they want Bitcoin to go. It opens up a lot more possibilities for the network.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Nathan047 on February 16, 2017, 04:48:19 PM
Transactions are almost instant. Confirmations depend on the competition to be included in the next block. That competition is what is going to have to secure the network moving forward. The sooner everyone realizes this, the better.

The days of free and ridiculously inexpensive Bitcoin transactions are slowly coming to an end. Many early adopters have turned into spoiled brats thanks to the early days of large block subsidies.

Bitcoin's unique properties allow censorship-proof transactions and a seize-proof store of value. There is going to be heavy competition to access these unique properties as authorities around the world continue the war on cash and proceed to implement increasingly strict capital controls.

People are going to have to compete to have their transaction included in the global decentralized immutable ledger. That is a good thing for everyone (as it will pay for network security) except those crybabies who think Bitcoin was designed for fast, cheap micro-payments.

Every transaction does not need to be censorship-proof as long as the option exists. Pay for your coffee with something else.
I understand what your saying and respect your opinion, however I feel like if this is the case bitcoin will fail as a payment system, it'll lose value as an investment, and die out, bringing down all other cryptocurrencys with it.

Bitcoin was made to become a payment system, and if nobody will switch to it because of high fees and long waits then I feel like it'll become worthless.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Nathan047 on February 16, 2017, 04:52:10 PM
So, currently in electrum, the recommended fee to get a transaction included in the next block, is 0.001835 BTC/kb. Thats 1.85$ PER KILOBYTE.

Now, to be fair, that is the recommended fee to get the transaction as soon as possible, but think of it this way:
I go to buy a cup of coffee and want to pay in bitcoin. I pay them but need to wait  some time for the transaction (obviously the coffee shop would want to receive a few confirmations on the transaction so they're sure I don't leave with a free coffee). Lets say I pay a high fee to get the transaction done soon, for this example lets say I paid a 1.85$ fee (and remember that is the recommended fee is per kilobyte, that's not the recommended total fee), now I've got to wait like 10 minutes and pay a dollar or two just to pay for a coffee with bitcoin (and remember that a few dollars is a high price to pay as a fee to buy something for a few dollars).

And this is in the current network. In order for me to pay for a coffee with bitcoin we'd probably need the mass adoption everybody seems convinced will happen. With mass adoption mean WAY more transactions on the network than now, and I feel mass adoption would cause the user base to grow much faster than the network (most of the people using bitcoin now are probably good with technology and would consider mining or hosting a node, if everybody joined then we probably wouldn't have a user base like that). Think of the kind of fees then.

I'd think that this should be a problem that is on the minds of the developers, and it probably is, so, what's the plan? Or perhaps there's already a plan coming to action and I'm just unaware of it. Anyway, please elaborate on this.

You dont need to wait until the confirmation will finish and the payment in bitcoin will appear in your balance. What it needs is that there is a transaction that has been done and the transfer is ongoing. If I am a merchant I will not think of it as a problem I will give my products to him even if the transaction is unconfirmed. Sooner or later it will be confirmed and will appear on my balance.
Yea, but what if I issue a double spending attack and then leave with a free product? I know it's probably not as big of a deal with small purchases and you've got the same risk with the potential for checks to bounce, but I feel like this is a risk companys won't want to take (and if they do take it then this will become a regular and bitcoin will get a bad name).


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Nathan047 on February 16, 2017, 04:58:09 PM
As a creative coffee shop owner, I would find ways to work around that, for instance : I will train my staff to educate people on signing up for a service like Xapo where the transactions are instant and basically free. My regulars will then have no problem paying for their daily coffee and I would help with adoption.

I will even give discount on people paying with Bitcoin. < 10% less per cup of coffee and first 10 cups free, if you signup for Xapo >

This is not the ideal solution but it is a option until they solve the scaling problems.
Centralized bitcoin payment processors are miracle workers for things like this, the only issue is they're centralized, so you're back to using bitcoin like Paypal. This is a great band aid approach, but I feel like we'll need an official fix to bitcoin core at some point.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: DoublerHunter on February 16, 2017, 09:35:12 PM
I think as of now, there is no available solution for this kind of problem because i think that the reason why we are often experiencing slower transaction is lack of miners who are supporting the network but if the amount of miners will increased then the transactions will be faster than before. I wish that before this year ends the miners will be more, so it will not be hassle for people who are rushing to send money to their love ones.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: franky1 on February 16, 2017, 11:26:27 PM
the problem of fee's is the old 'priority mechanism
and
how the fee 'estimate' has replaced reactive fee's

but lets concentrate on a proper solution. by looking at the "priority" formulae..

(input_value_in_base_units * input_age)/size_in_bytes
target = 57,600,000

where someone with say 10btc($10,000)

100000000 *144 / 250 = 57,600,000 - gets priority

but someone with just 1btc($1000) with the exact same 'bloat' has to wait 10 days.
but someone with just 0.1btc($10) with the exact same 'bloat' has to wait 100 days.

i see a new 'priority formulae' being used onchain of bitcoins mainnet.
this is what i see as the logical punishment for bloating/respending spammers. whilst rewarding moral normal transactors, whether rich or poor

one which includes a CLTV voluntary option. where users gain priority points if they voluntarily agree to put their funds into a 1-day maturity. but those avoiding the one day before respend or have bloated transactions pay more to get into a block sooner.

EG
if you really need priority you agree that once confirmed you cant respend for a day.
it also means you can be selective of priority. by only putting a 142block wait if your happy to wait a couple blocks because it wont be priority for a couple blocks by not paying quite enough fee. allowing the age/maturity/fee variables to give a better flag of desire.

obviously those moral users that actually need to spend more than once a day could see the niche of LN as a way to transact often and cheaper.
and those that dont spend every day get priority and not need LN or to CLTV mature funds, because they are not spending everyday, anyway.

here is one example of a formulae that does not care about how much people are spending (not a rich gets priority, poor are victimised old formula), but rewards people willing to wait a day, have lean transactions. and penalises those that want to respend often or have bloated transactions

http://i.imgur.com/WnGb05Q.png

basically
if your transaction is 2x a lean tx. you pay twice as much. if 44x a lean tx you pay 44x
if you dont want to mature your funds for 144 blocks and only want to wait 1 block you pay 144x.
if the tx is both 44x bloated and wants to respend the very next block after getting confirmed then it costs 44x*144X


though my formulae is not finalised or perfect for every utility. i see how changing the priority formulae can cause more benefits for good people and penalise the bad, without making it used just to be snobby about rich vs poor. due to it no longer rewarding the rich with points just for being rich, which the old formulae done


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: asdalani on February 16, 2017, 11:30:34 PM
There isn't anything wrong with transaction fee's. If you are so interested in trying to get fast transactions then try to make a online wallet that holds a balance just for transaction fee's and when someone sends money into the wallet then you could send the money asap with a high transaction fee or physical wallet.dat transfers.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: hollandvan on February 17, 2017, 12:06:06 AM
Increasing the bitcoin blocksize .
There are have planted to fixing the problem of bitcoin as you can see. SegWit, BU, 8MB blocks.
coin.dance/blocks
 ::) ::) ::)

But its competition is really strict.

Yeah, blocksize needs to be scaling, the current speed sucks, and transation of higher fees is slow too.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: bravehearth0319 on February 17, 2017, 07:42:05 AM
So, currently in electrum, the recommended fee to get a transaction included in the next block, is 0.001835 BTC/kb. Thats 1.85$ PER KILOBYTE.

Now, to be fair, that is the recommended fee to get the transaction as soon as possible, but think of it this way:
I go to buy a cup of coffee and want to pay in bitcoin. I pay them but need to wait  some time for the transaction (obviously the coffee shop would want to receive a few confirmations on the transaction so they're sure I don't leave with a free coffee). Lets say I pay a high fee to get the transaction done soon, for this example lets say I paid a 1.85$ fee (and remember that is the recommended fee is per kilobyte, that's not the recommended total fee), now I've got to wait like 10 minutes and pay a dollar or two just to pay for a coffee with bitcoin (and remember that a few dollars is a high price to pay as a fee to buy something for a few dollars).

And this is in the current network. In order for me to pay for a coffee with bitcoin we'd probably need the mass adoption everybody seems convinced will happen. With mass adoption mean WAY more transactions on the network than now, and I feel mass adoption would cause the user base to grow much faster than the network (most of the people using bitcoin now are probably good with technology and would consider mining or hosting a node, if everybody joined then we probably wouldn't have a user base like that). Think of the kind of fees then.

I'd think that this should be a problem that is on the minds of the developers, and it probably is, so, what's the plan? Or perhaps there's already a plan coming to action and I'm just unaware of it. Anyway, please elaborate on this.

Giving the higher fee in every transaction is most common problems in the blockchain, because if you pay at low fees transaction it will surely takes an hour, or it can be 2 or 3 days before the unconfirmed become confirm. There are planing to implement the fix amount which higher fee for every transaction but this will not be in favor for the community like us.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: talkbitcoin on February 17, 2017, 08:29:41 AM
As a creative coffee shop owner, I would find ways to work around that, for instance : I will train my staff to educate people on signing up for a service like Xapo where the transactions are instant and basically free. My regulars will then have no problem paying for their daily coffee and I would help with adoption.

I will even give discount on people paying with Bitcoin. < 10% less per cup of coffee and first 10 cups free, if you signup for Xapo >

This is not the ideal solution but it is a option until they solve the scaling problems.
Centralized bitcoin payment processors are miracle workers for things like this, the only issue is they're centralized, so you're back to using bitcoin like Paypal. This is a great band aid approach, but I feel like we'll need an official fix to bitcoin core at some point.

it is not band aid, it is not even a solution, and it is not even good option.
you better say use fiat instead, because bitcoin is bitcoin as long as it works the same way, meaning you are your own bank and you spend on your own, only paying network fees and not rely on anybody else apart from miners to mine blocks in general.
if we go out of this line, then it is no longer bitcoin.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Nathan047 on February 17, 2017, 03:30:35 PM
It hasn't happened to me yet, fingers crossed, but even transactions where I have paid low fee's have gone through eventually.
Im not saying that block size isn't a problem, just that its doing bloody well considering!
Maybe Im one of the few lucky ones.
I've paid low fees also, but takes time (sometimes 1+ day(s), but I'm talking about making a small purchase in person, which would require a faster transaction.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: kingcolex on February 17, 2017, 05:41:39 PM
It hasn't happened to me yet, fingers crossed, but even transactions where I have paid low fee's have gone through eventually.
Im not saying that block size isn't a problem, just that its doing bloody well considering!
Maybe Im one of the few lucky ones.
I've paid low fees also, but takes time (sometimes 1+ day(s), but I'm talking about making a small purchase in person, which would require a faster transaction.
This is where litecoin or dash comes in litecoin has 2 minute blocks and dash can instant TX, the owner can shapeshift to bitcoin without worry later.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: royalfestus on February 17, 2017, 05:57:16 PM
.
They mostly use it because it works outside of governmental control or censorship.
In fact, its origins and revelation was within the cypherpunk sphere which has no
interest in e-cash, but the idea of true unrestricted e-exchange.


 I was just thinking if china holds that size of bitcoin and you addressed most of the owners to use to work out of government control or censorship. Seeing the indirect control of bitcoin by the chinese government. Can we still consider you statement to be void? or bitcoin is not serving that purpose anymore among the large users.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Vaccinus on February 17, 2017, 06:43:32 PM
It hasn't happened to me yet, fingers crossed, but even transactions where I have paid low fee's have gone through eventually.
Im not saying that block size isn't a problem, just that its doing bloody well considering!
Maybe Im one of the few lucky ones.
I've paid low fees also, but takes time (sometimes 1+ day(s), but I'm talking about making a small purchase in person, which would require a faster transaction.
This is where litecoin or dash comes in litecoin has 2 minute blocks and dash can instant TX, the owner can shapeshift to bitcoin without worry later.

litecoin has 2.5 minutes block time not 2, how can dash intant tx? they have a block time right, the confirmation can't be lower than 1 minute, i see a large amount of orphan for coins that have a lower than 1 minute confirmation time, and dash and litecoin i have lower volume on transaction than bitcoin, are they really comparable?


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: AgentofCoin on February 17, 2017, 07:44:06 PM
.
They mostly use it because it works outside of governmental control or censorship.
In fact, its origins and revelation was within the cypherpunk sphere which has no
interest in e-cash, but the idea of true unrestricted e-exchange.

I was just thinking if china holds that size of bitcoin and you addressed most of the owners to use to work out of government control or censorship. Seeing the indirect control of bitcoin by the chinese government. Can we still consider you statement to be void? or bitcoin is not serving that purpose anymore among the large users.

If I understand your statements correctly:
If those users keep their coins on exchanges and only exchange between exchange accounts,
that is not Bitcoin and its original designed purpose. That is speculative trading.

The Chinese government in theory can not control or regulate Bitcoin accept by going after the
Chinese miners or the Chinese exchanges. As long as you are not one of them, you are mostly
safe and free of censorship or control (until China fully outlaws bitcoin and hunts users and/or
node operators).

Bitcoin was designed to work without third-parties like banks or exchanges.
As long as Chinese btc users don't use bitcoin through those systems, they are fine (in theory).
Bitcoin was designed specifically for Person to Person, not Person to Exchange to Person.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: Nathan047 on February 17, 2017, 10:02:22 PM
This is where litecoin or dash comes in litecoin has 2 minute blocks and dash can instant TX, the owner can shapeshift to bitcoin without worry later.
Yea, Litecoin or DASH could work, although they're not bitcoin and if places don't adopt bitcoin then I don't expect them to jump strait to DASH or Litecoin.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: kingcolex on February 18, 2017, 02:50:32 AM
It hasn't happened to me yet, fingers crossed, but even transactions where I have paid low fee's have gone through eventually.
Im not saying that block size isn't a problem, just that its doing bloody well considering!
Maybe Im one of the few lucky ones.
I've paid low fees also, but takes time (sometimes 1+ day(s), but I'm talking about making a small purchase in person, which would require a faster transaction.
This is where litecoin or dash comes in litecoin has 2 minute blocks and dash can instant TX, the owner can shapeshift to bitcoin without worry later.

litecoin has 2.5 minutes block time not 2, how can dash intant tx? they have a block time right, the confirmation can't be lower than 1 minute, i see a large amount of orphan for coins that have a lower than 1 minute confirmation time, and dash and litecoin i have lower volume on transaction than bitcoin, are they really comparable?
Dash uses masternodes, which is a wallet that has 1000+ dash in it, it becomes a special node that allows for instant TX quorums to be processed, those who run the nodes get a POS style reward every so often.
It works great from everything I've seen about it, it doesn't seem like something we could bring to Bitcoin though due to the compensation of nodes.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: wizmo on February 18, 2017, 03:20:27 AM
I always pay recommanded fees and it only takes 3-4 minutes to confirm.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: kingcolex on February 18, 2017, 03:21:46 AM
I always pay recommanded fees and it only takes 3-4 minutes to confirm.
No, no it does not.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: poloniexwhale on February 18, 2017, 04:26:16 AM
SegWit, Bitcoin unlimited and 8 MB are the major solutions to us, the most popular one is SegWit, but it is still difficult to fully implement.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: dominikherzog5 on February 18, 2017, 04:30:00 AM
I think segwit is plan to fix slow transaction and high fees from developers,
unfortunately it is not activated because there are some people ( what I know the miners )
who disagree with activation of segwit and they won't update the software.
So we must wait and see other solution and what is the best can be accepted
by all of comunity of bitcoin until this problem finish.
why some people disagree it?
fast transaction and low fee will bring more people to use it


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: densuj on February 18, 2017, 03:08:36 PM
I think segwit is plan to fix slow transaction and high fees from developers,
unfortunately it is not activated because there are some people ( what I know the miners )
who disagree with activation of segwit and they won't update the software.
So we must wait and see other solution and what is the best can be accepted
by all of comunity of bitcoin until this problem finish.
why some people disagree it?
fast transaction and low fee will bring more people to use it
Some people usually the miners, they are disagree with segwit because
if it be activated bitcoin will become like fiat money the government or corporations
can be control the bitcoin and the other reason bitcoin's network will be down.


Title: Re: What is the plan to fix slow transactions and high fees?
Post by: dunfida on February 18, 2017, 03:12:04 PM
I always pay recommanded fees and it only takes 3-4 minutes to confirm.
No, no it does not.
You are right it doesn't always rely on recommended fees since transaction confirmation would really depend on the blockchain network because if there are lots of unconfirmed transactions no matter how big you will pay on the tx fee it would still took long.I don't know how to fix this at all since bitcoin cant really be controlled neither fix or edit the blockchain network.