Bitcoin Forum

Economy => Economics => Topic started by: wingding on April 19, 2013, 05:52:47 PM



Title: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: wingding on April 19, 2013, 05:52:47 PM
Bitcoin got real public attention in early March. At that point 11 million coins were produced by a very small community.
Since then only 7000 new coins has been created, or a 0.06% of the total supply. But the people interested in bitcoin have increased probably by thousands or even millions. So the only way for bitcoins to get massive adaptation is by sell-off from a small community that was in early. In other words, a small number of people is in charge of the money supply. I donít think this is a good starting point for bitcoin to obtain broad adaptation.




Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: RodeoX on April 19, 2013, 05:56:39 PM
Even if one bitcoin per day were produced it would be enough. We would simply be using amounts like BTC0.000024. It is not a dollar bill.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: deepceleron on April 19, 2013, 06:00:26 PM
When I was born, somebody else had all the money too.

25 BTC * 144 = 3600 BTC per day (or more) that are created. We are printing half a million dollars worth of Bitcoin a day, which would be inflation if it wasn't for more value and interest than that coming into the Bitcoin economy.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: wingding on April 19, 2013, 06:02:20 PM
Even if one bitcoin per day were produced it would be enough. We would simply be using amounts like BTC0.000024. It is not a dollar bill.

You are missing my point: First all bitcoins are produced (by one guy - or a few thousands, does not matter) then, the rest of the world are invited to come and buy their coins.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: bb113 on April 19, 2013, 06:06:35 PM
Even if one bitcoin per day were produced it would be enough. We would simply be using amounts like BTC0.000024. It is not a dollar bill.

You are missing my point: First all bitcoins are produced (by one guy - or a few thousands, does not matter) then, the rest of the world are invited to come and buy their coins.

People were being invited the whole time but being laughed at for it being a joke or pyramid scheme. First come, first serve is the fairest way to initially distribute an experimental currency. Just get some to try it out as currency.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: alexeft on April 19, 2013, 06:18:47 PM
To OP: isn't it fair that early adopters own more of the bitcoin wealth just because they had to endure more risk for more time than others? Not to mention mocking and outright accusations of crimes!!!  ???


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: myrkul on April 19, 2013, 06:30:41 PM
Life cycle of a Bitcoiner:
Hear about Bitcoin. Look into it, decide not to get in. Too risky.
Several months pass.
Hear about Bitcoin again, see how much the price has risen.
Buy a few coins, so as to not be left out.
Bitch about "early adopters" and how they "have all the coins."
"Early adopters" tell you to quit whining.
Post new thread about "fatal flaw" in Bitcoin.
Get told that "fatal flaw" is feature, not bug, get pointed to 9000 other threads where same "flaw" is discussed.
Tell friends about Bitcoin. They decide not to get in. Too risky.
Several months pass.
New users flood in, and start posting threads bitching about "early adopters" and how they "have all the coins."
Tell new users to quit whining about "early adopters".
Realize that you are now an "early adopter."


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: pinger on April 19, 2013, 06:36:40 PM
Life cycle of a Bitcoiner:
Hear about Bitcoin. Look into it, decide not to get in. Too risky.
Several months pass.
Hear about Bitcoin again, see how much the price has risen.
Buy a few coins, so as to not be left out.
Bitch about "early adopters" and how they "have all the coins."
"Early adopters" tell you to quit whining.
Tell friends about Bitcoin. They decide not to get in. Too risky.
Several months pass.
New users flood in, and start posting threads bitching about "early adopters" and how they "have all the coins."
Tell new users to quit whining about "early adopters".
Realize that you are now an "early adopter."

+1000 Really big knowledge in this words.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: justusranvier on April 19, 2013, 06:40:42 PM
Life cycle of a Bitcoiner:
Hear about Bitcoin. Look into it, decide not to get in. Too risky.
Several months pass.
Hear about Bitcoin again, see how much the price has risen.
Buy a few coins, so as to not be left out.
Bitch about "early adopters" and how they "have all the coins."
"Early adopters" tell you to quit whining.
Tell friends about Bitcoin. They decide not to get in. Too risky.
Several months pass.
New users flood in, and start posting threads bitching about "early adopters" and how they "have all the coins."
Tell new users to quit whining about "early adopters".
Realize that you are now an "early adopter."
You left out the part where you you assume you've discovered a fatal flaw that nobody in the entire history of the project has ever thought of before, so you start a new thread on the forum to announce your finding without bothering to perform a cursory search to see if there aren't already over 9000 threads and 42 wiki articles already talking about it.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: alexeft on April 19, 2013, 06:43:03 PM
Life cycle of a Bitcoiner:
Hear about Bitcoin. Look into it, decide not to get in. Too risky.
Several months pass.
Hear about Bitcoin again, see how much the price has risen.
Buy a few coins, so as to not be left out.
Bitch about "early adopters" and how they "have all the coins."
"Early adopters" tell you to quit whining.
Tell friends about Bitcoin. They decide not to get in. Too risky.
Several months pass.
New users flood in, and start posting threads bitching about "early adopters" and how they "have all the coins."
Tell new users to quit whining about "early adopters".
Realize that you are now an "early adopter."

So true and really irritating.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: myrkul on April 19, 2013, 06:44:07 PM
Life cycle of a Bitcoiner:
Hear about Bitcoin. Look into it, decide not to get in. Too risky.
Several months pass.
Hear about Bitcoin again, see how much the price has risen.
Buy a few coins, so as to not be left out.
Bitch about "early adopters" and how they "have all the coins."
"Early adopters" tell you to quit whining.
Tell friends about Bitcoin. They decide not to get in. Too risky.
Several months pass.
New users flood in, and start posting threads bitching about "early adopters" and how they "have all the coins."
Tell new users to quit whining about "early adopters".
Realize that you are now an "early adopter."
You left out the part where you you assume you've discovered a fatal flaw that nobody in the entire history of the project has ever thought of before, so you start a new thread on the forum to announce your finding without bothering to perform a cursory search to see if there aren't already over 9000 threads and 42 wiki articles already talking about it.
Oh, right. That goes in between '"Early adopters" tell you to quit whining.' and 'Tell friends about Bitcoin. They decide not to get in. Too risky'


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: RodeoX on April 19, 2013, 07:02:21 PM
Even if one bitcoin per day were produced it would be enough. We would simply be using amounts like BTC0.000024. It is not a dollar bill.

You are missing my point: First all bitcoins are produced (by one guy - or a few thousands, does not matter) then, the rest of the world are invited to come and buy their coins.
The coins are not given away. It takes time, equipment and a lot of electricity to produce coins. Anyone who wants to try can start mining. You could plop down $20k for a mining rig and do it yourself. I don't see how it could be more fair.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: botlove on April 19, 2013, 07:21:40 PM
The rate of new coins is a known number.   The whole world can plan and factor that into their calculations.  It's really not hard - supply versus greed, demand versus panic. Besides, it's only a few years old... improving every day...  And what have YOU done to contribute to improvements?


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: cbeast on April 19, 2013, 07:23:40 PM
The Bitcoin community of active miners is larger than the staff of Google, yet their stock is valued over $600. That hardly seems fair that we have to pay so much for something issued by so few people.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: ZephramC on April 19, 2013, 07:34:35 PM
Even if one bitcoin per day were produced it would be enough. We would simply be using amounts like BTC0.000024. It is not a dollar bill.
With the current transaction fees or with lower fees? :-]

Btw. : Lifecycle of the bitcoiner - This should be archived for future generations newbies. :-]


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: Severian on April 19, 2013, 07:37:39 PM
In other words, a small number of people is in charge of the money supply.

It sounds like you'd better get mining.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: tooniz on April 19, 2013, 07:53:47 PM
The Bitcoin community of active miners is larger than the staff of Google, yet their stock is valued over $600. That hardly seems fair that we have to pay so much for something issued by so few people.

Are you kidding, are you so blind that you don't see how much value Google provides? Everyday, I pay nothing to do ~20 searches a day, get best email service in the world, get best calendar in the world, and get a couple minutes of entertainment from YouTube.

Maybe I should correct myself, I am sure even blind people get a lot of value out of google.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: desired_username on April 19, 2013, 08:03:22 PM
The Bitcoin community of active miners is larger than the staff of Google, yet their stock is valued over $600. That hardly seems fair that we have to pay so much for something issued by so few people.

Are you kidding, are you so blind that you don't see how much value Google provides? Everyday, I pay nothing to do ~20 searches a day, get best email service in the world, get best calendar in the world, and get a couple minutes of entertainment from YouTube.

Maybe I should correct myself, I am sure even blind people get a lot of value out of google.

For what price??

Nothing is free my friend, google uses your personal details. I think they possess the most valuable lump of information and you can be sure that they get money for it. Think for a second, would you run these services if it wouldn't worth it financially? ;-) the devil is in the details.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: wingding on April 19, 2013, 08:25:23 PM
I do not intend to 'bitch' about early adapters and stuff like that. I have no problems with people making lots of money, especially not those who made bitcoin possible. I think more about the possibility for bitcoin to actually get massive adaptation. I believe the 'real' succesful coin will be one that has a fast growth during a few years while the world is accommodating it.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: myrkul on April 19, 2013, 08:47:29 PM
I do not intend to 'bitch' about early adapters and stuff like that. I have no problems with people making lots of money, especially not those who made bitcoin possible. I think more about the possibility for bitcoin to actually get massive adaptation. I believe the 'real' succesful coin will be one that has a fast growth during a few years while the world is accommodating it.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Total_bitcoins_over_time.png/300px-Total_bitcoins_over_time.png

3600 a day not fast enough for you?


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: wingding on April 19, 2013, 08:58:44 PM
I do not intend to 'bitch' about early adapters and stuff like that. I have no problems with people making lots of money, especially not those who made bitcoin possible. I think more about the possibility for bitcoin to actually get massive adaptation. I believe the 'real' succesful coin will be one that has a fast growth during a few years while the world is accommodating it.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Total_bitcoins_over_time.png/300px-Total_bitcoins_over_time.png

3600 a day not fast enough for you?

No that is not fast enough.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: wingding on April 19, 2013, 09:04:47 PM
This is what is needed:
http://i.imgur.com/o9mgkUh.png


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: myrkul on April 19, 2013, 09:08:27 PM
3600 a day not fast enough for you?

No that is not fast enough.
What about 3600000?
Or maybe 3600000000?
How about 360000000000?



Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: alexeft on April 19, 2013, 09:11:25 PM
3600 a day not fast enough for you?

No that is not fast enough.
What about 3600000?
Or maybe 3600000000?
How about 360000000000?



It wouldn't matter then. Bitcoin would be as worthless as fiat! :-X


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: wingding on April 19, 2013, 09:14:24 PM


It wouldn't matter then. Bitcoin would be as worthless as fiat! :-X

No. If those new 3600 coin were sold at $1000, it would only accomodate $1.2 billion a year. That is not enough for bitcoin to get out of the sandbox.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: bb113 on April 19, 2013, 09:17:15 PM


It wouldn't matter then. Bitcoin would be as worthless as fiat! :-X

No. If those new 3600 coin were sold at $1000, it would only accomodate $1.2 billion a year. That is not enough for bitcoin to get out of the sandbox.

So what are you suggesting? Dump all the bitcoins and adopt some "other" coin just because. No matter what there will be early adopters, those who scoff at it and then are angry later.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: myrkul on April 19, 2013, 09:20:16 PM
No. If those new 3600 coin were sold at $1000, it would only accomodate $1.2 billion a year. That is not enough for bitcoin to get out of the sandbox.

You have no idea what you're talking about. We're already a bigger economy than Nicaragua.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: luffy on April 19, 2013, 09:24:40 PM
don't stuck only to BTC. there are more coins out there and more to come, enough for every member of the galaxy.
enjoy this technological ride ;D


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: wingding on April 19, 2013, 09:32:37 PM
don't stuck only to BTC. there are more coins out there and more to come, enough for every member of the galaxy.
enjoy this technological ride ;D

A good point ;)


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: Frequency on April 20, 2013, 05:16:21 PM
Lots of hoarded coins will get in when they (hoarders) feel they get the right price .. Let say to buy stuff with coins or turn some in to fiat to spend on morgages and cars they never could afford, now is just not the time to buy everything u need with btc YET..

Longterm there will flow enough into the economie more then enough...!! Just no yet..!  ;)


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: alexeft on April 20, 2013, 06:06:33 PM
don't stuck only to BTC. there are more coins out there and more to come, enough for every member of the galaxy.
enjoy this technological ride ;D

Indeed!!

Hey, I just made alexeft-coin! Want to buy some?  ;D


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: batcoin on April 20, 2013, 06:38:52 PM
 ::) This thread...


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: ChanceCoats123 on April 20, 2013, 09:45:19 PM


It wouldn't matter then. Bitcoin would be as worthless as fiat! :-X

No. If those new 3600 coin were sold at $1000, it would only accomodate $1.2 billion a year. That is not enough for bitcoin to get out of the sandbox.

$1000 is not the current price. If btc is t to succeed, the value must be much higher. How do you think that value will rise if everyone has 50,000btc as soon as they open the program? You must do something for your btc and early adopters have done their share.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: Jobe7 on April 20, 2013, 09:48:56 PM
Life cycle of a Bitcoiner:
Hear about Bitcoin. Look into it, decide not to get in. Too risky.
Several months pass.
Hear about Bitcoin again, see how much the price has risen.
Buy a few coins, so as to not be left out.
Bitch about "early adopters" and how they "have all the coins."
"Early adopters" tell you to quit whining.
Post new thread about "fatal flaw" in Bitcoin.
Get told that "fatal flaw" is feature, not bug, get pointed to 9000 other threads where same "flaw" is discussed.
Tell friends about Bitcoin. They decide not to get in. Too risky.
Several months pass.
New users flood in, and start posting threads bitching about "early adopters" and how they "have all the coins."
Tell new users to quit whining about "early adopters".
Realize that you are now an "early adopter."

Excellently put.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: Jobe7 on April 20, 2013, 10:09:37 PM
Dear OP,

There are currently OVER

1,000,000,000,000,000 Satoshi's (bitcoin) - 1 Quadrillion (tbh, I think I did my maths wrong and it should be 10 quadrillion satoshi's atm)

(10 millionx 100000000 (1 btc))


1,000,000,000 billion
100,000,000,000 billion

Thats counting it at 10 million, and as I hope you know, there's over 10 mil btc around atm.

So.... my question to you OP is ..

Do you think 1,000,000,000,000,000, considering the current interest, and that the world population is roughly 7 billion, is enough to go around then?

Or do you still think there's not enough? And if you think that 1 or 10 quadrillion is NOT enough for the current supply/demand, and the upcoming supply and demand, then how much DO you think would be enough?


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: johnyj on April 21, 2013, 12:25:48 AM
Actually there was a discussion about keeping coin generation rate forever at 50 coins per block, but the linear increase of coin supply would still make any newly generated coins insignificant comparing to all the existing coins, just the curve is not that steep

But the impression is totally different

1. Daily coin generation is 7200 coins
2. Total coin generation will be 21M

Comparing the two statements, the second one obviously give the impression of a limited supply, while the first one still feels like endless supply. This impression affect people's interest and trust, in the first case, bitcoin might never reach the status it has today



Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: Jobe7 on April 21, 2013, 12:49:05 AM
Steady decrease over time = less produced as it becomes more widely accepted. Which means that the btc in circulation has the chance to grow appropriately. As money-inflation supply decreases value increases and the desire to hold some increases which in turn increases the market and the business desire to do business with a market full of bitcoiners eager to spend their btc.

Supply decreasing also gives incentives to miners choosing to mine transaction blocks primarily, which encourages businesses to adopt transaction fees, which will mean that by the time final production of btc ends that there will be a steady transaction fee market so that miners will be comfortable to stay mining.

The amount of new people being introduced each day, and buying 1 btc when they get introduced vs 3600 btc produced per day.

Bit hard to judge this one, as you need to look at various sites that show how many 'new wallets' they get, but then, how many of these are new people to btc?

When you have 3600 new people per day, buying an average of 1 btc per day .. what happens when you have 7200 people .. per day.

Anyway .. hope what I said is a bit understandable, cba to write a paper, and you probably wouldn't read it anyway.

A good way to understand why a 'low' rate of new coins and a steady decrease is a most excellent idea is to spin it on its head, and figure out what would happen if it was a steady increase in the rate of coins culminating at a sudden cut off at 21 million (which would probably happen within a couple of years at that rate).

Just to add .. IF btc was produced faster as you suggest, or even faster, and all 21 million were to be mined by this August 2013. Then don't you think that ALL the btc would most definitely be in the hands of the minority. THAT would be a bad thing, then btc would die, or at least grow extremely slowly, but most likely die. Spreading it out nice and steady and encouraging current holders to spread it out is a very very good thing. Don't think short term 'I wanna make lotsa money!!", think long term "I want to save the world."

OK, maybe saving the world is too much for a lot of people, but having some Satoshi is a good step towards that :)

Satoshi Nakomoto is a genius, and thought long term.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: batcoin on April 21, 2013, 07:46:36 AM
Quote
If bitcoin is to succeed...

I see this shit in just about every thread just like this one. I was going to save your asses a lot of trouble and just post the info here about all the businesses that transact in Bitcoin, but, alas, our trusty forum software only allows posts with less than 64 000 characters. I guess I will just have to put a link here instead and trust that you will click on it and actually read it.

 Bitcoin IS succeeding! (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade)

And quite nicely without all the meddling chimpanzery that the newcomers with their Keynesian economics degrees and certificates and training would like to impose upon it.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: myrkul on April 21, 2013, 07:48:57 AM
Quote
If bitcoin is to succeed...

I see this shit in just about every thread just like this one. I was going to save your asses a lot of trouble and just post the info here about all the businesses that transact in Bitcoin, but, alas, our trusty forum software only allows posts with less than 64 000 characters. I guess I will just have to put a link here instead and trust that you will click on it and actually read it.

 Bitcoin IS succeeding! (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade)

And quite nicely without all the meddling chimpanzery that the newcomers with their Keynesian economics degrees and certificates and training would like to impose upon it.
I like you, you're good people.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: wingding on April 21, 2013, 01:16:13 PM


Just to add .. IF btc was produced faster as you suggest, or even faster, and all 21 million were to be mined by this August 2013. Then don't you think that ALL the btc would most definitely be in the hands of the minority. THAT would be a bad thing, then btc would die, or at least grow extremely slowly, but most likely die. Spreading it out nice and steady and encouraging current holders to spread it out is a very very good thing. Don't think short term 'I wanna make lotsa money!!", think long term "I want to save the world."

OK, maybe saving the world is too much for a lot of people, but having some Satoshi is a good step towards that :)

Satoshi Nakomoto is a genius, and thought long term.

Thanks for  a reply with a rationale, rather than the religious kind.

You misunderstood me at a key point: Yes I want a faster coin production - but I want it to remain constant. Not to stop. I know the volume would be ever increasing, but I think the increased demand would keep infaltion well down, and one would still have defaltion.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: wingding on April 21, 2013, 01:32:59 PM
Actually there was a discussion about keeping coin generation rate forever at 50 coins per block, but the linear increase of coin supply would still make any newly generated coins insignificant comparing to all the existing coins, just the curve is not that steep

But the impression is totally different

1. Daily coin generation is 7200 coins
2. Total coin generation will be 21M

Comparing the two statements, the second one obviously give the impression of a limited supply, while the first one still feels like endless supply. This impression affect people's interest and trust, in the first case, bitcoin might never reach the status it has today


Do you have any reference to that discussion? I would certainly like to read it.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: jdbtracker on April 21, 2013, 04:38:50 PM
Dear OP,

There are currently OVER

1,000,000,000,000,000 Satoshi's (bitcoin) - 1 Quadrillion (tbh, I think I did my maths wrong and it should be 10 quadrillion satoshi's atm)

(10 millionx 100000000 (1 btc))


1,000,000,000 billion
100,000,000,000 billion

Thats counting it at 10 million, and as I hope you know, there's over 10 mil btc around atm.

So.... my question to you OP is ..

Do you think 1,000,000,000,000,000, considering the current interest, and that the world population is roughly 7 billion, is enough to go around then?

Or do you still think there's not enough? And if you think that 1 or 10 quadrillion is NOT enough for the current supply/demand, and the upcoming supply and demand, then how much DO you think would be enough?

+10000!!!!

Thank you! hopefully i'm not annoying people with my wild ideas, but here it goes.

here is the math:

Current bitcoin production average 3600 (+/- 400)/ day * 365 days = 1,314,000 BTC/ year   * (current value whatever it is, at the moment $130usd) = $170,800,000usd/year)

what if the interest increases? what if people are eager to enter the Bitcoin market? bitcoin will naturally scale so

increase the price to 1000  and you get = $1,314,000,000 USD/year  

what if it increases to world wide level demand?

increase the price to $200,000 USD/BTC =  $262,800,000,000 USD/year

what if the system tries to take the maximum amount of bitcoins possible all 21,000,000,000,000,000 USD/satoshiBTC?  = $27,594,000,000,000,000,000,000 USD/year

There is a lot of zero's past that decimal point.

The system scales my friends, the system scales.

In a way you got to remember that the fiat currencies inflate infinitely.... each coin can be worth an infinite amount of USD... one coin could be worth the entire world economy.

TO INFINITY AND BEYOND!


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: centove on April 21, 2013, 07:23:06 PM
Quote
If bitcoin is to succeed...

I see this shit in just about every thread just like this one. I was going to save your asses a lot of trouble and just post the info here about all the businesses that transact in Bitcoin, but, alas, our trusty forum software only allows posts with less than 64 000 characters. I guess I will just have to put a link here instead and trust that you will click on it and actually read it.

 Bitcoin IS succeeding! (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade)

And quite nicely without all the meddling chimpanzery that the newcomers with their Keynesian economics degrees and certificates and training would like to impose upon it.
And actually that list is missing some entities as well ;)


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: jdbtracker on April 22, 2013, 12:25:51 AM
Quote
If bitcoin is to succeed...

I see this shit in just about every thread just like this one. I was going to save your asses a lot of trouble and just post the info here about all the businesses that transact in Bitcoin, but, alas, our trusty forum software only allows posts with less than 64 000 characters. I guess I will just have to put a link here instead and trust that you will click on it and actually read it.

 Bitcoin IS succeeding! (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade)

And quite nicely without all the meddling chimpanzery that the newcomers with their Keynesian economics degrees and certificates and training would like to impose upon it.

+10

Good work


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: DeathAndTaxes on April 22, 2013, 12:31:40 AM
Bitcoin got real public attention in early March. At that point 11 million coins were produced by a very small community.
Since then only 7000 new coins has been created

If you are going to whine at least get the facts right.  Since March 1st there have been 7,392 blocks producing 184,800 new BTC.  The Bitcoin money supply is growing at roughly a 12% annual rate (12% monetary inflation).



[/quote]


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: RodeoX on April 22, 2013, 06:02:08 PM
Bitcoin got real public attention in early March. At that point 11 million coins were produced by a very small community.
Since then only 7000 new coins has been created

If you are going to whine at least get the facts right.  Since March 1st there have been 7,392 blocks producing 184,800 new BTC.  The Bitcoin money supply is growing at roughly a 12% annual rate (12% monetary inflation).




+1, and I would add that it is also incorrect to say they were produced by a very small community.  I think it is in the tens of thousands.
In any case, how many are produced is irrelevant. It is like saying there is not enough gold being mined to keep up with demand, therefore gold is useless as a store of value.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: manfred on April 22, 2013, 06:05:06 PM
Even if one bitcoin per day were produced it would be enough. We would simply be using amounts like BTC0.000024. It is not a dollar bill.

You are missing my point: First all bitcoins are produced (by one guy - or a few thousands, does not matter) then, the rest of the world are invited to come and buy their coins.
+1


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: myrkul on April 22, 2013, 06:09:18 PM
Even if one bitcoin per day were produced it would be enough. We would simply be using amounts like BTC0.000024. It is not a dollar bill.

You are missing my point: First all bitcoins are produced (by one guy - or a few thousands, does not matter) then, the rest of the world are invited to come and buy their coins.
+1
Bitcoins are still being produced, and this will continue for over a century. You're also invited to join in the production.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: RodeoX on April 22, 2013, 06:55:56 PM
Even if one bitcoin per day were produced it would be enough. We would simply be using amounts like BTC0.000024. It is not a dollar bill.

You are missing my point: First all bitcoins are produced (by one guy - or a few thousands, does not matter) then, the rest of the world are invited to come and buy their coins.
+1
Bitcoins are still being produced, and this will continue for over a century. You're also invited to join in the production.
Yeah, what he said. How come gold miners don't have this kind of scorn? After all, they mine the gold and you are invited to buy it. You could try mining gold yourself, but you will likely not be successful. Same thing.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: batcoin on April 23, 2013, 07:11:42 AM
FFS, people...That's why we have Freicoin, Commie-Coin and, what I think is the best invention yet, DirtCoin. With DirtCoin, you don't need ANY mining hardware. You don't need a computer or a shovel or a sleuce. ANYone can obtain it, at any time, practically anywhere on the planet. An extremely modest demurrage is built into its core and new, clean Dirtcoins are being produced in numerous places around the world. If you cannot get to one of these production nodes, well, then you can just bend over and pick up some Dirtcoins to spend wherever Dirtcoins are accepted. Anyone can obtain it at any time with practically no investment whatsoever!

DirtCoins! An idea worth spending, hoarding, speculating, producing, legislating, overdesigning!


Now, let's give the forum a few years for the quadriplegics to show up and bitch about how unfair it is that they can't obtain any. By all means, hold your breath...  ::)


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 07:19:34 AM
FFS, people...That's why we have Freicoin, Commie-Coin and, what I think is the best invention yet, DirtCoin. With DirtCoin, you don't need ANY mining hardware. You don't need a computer or a shovel or a sleuce. ANYone can obtain it, at any time, practically anywhere on the planet. An extremely modest demurrage is built into its core and new, clean Dirtcoins are being produced in numerous places around the world. If you cannot get to one of these production nodes, well, then you can just bend over and pick up some Dirtcoins to spend wherever Dirtcoins are accepted. Anyone can obtain it at any time with practically no investment whatsoever!

DirtCoins! An idea worth spending, hoarding, speculating, producing, legislating, overdesigning!


Now, let's give the forum a few years for the quadriplegics to show up and bitch about how unfair it is that they can't obtain any. By all means, hold your breath...  ::)

http://eatlosewin.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Gold-Star.jpg

/thread.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: Walter Rothbard on April 23, 2013, 07:23:02 AM
Life cycle of a Bitcoiner:
Hear about Bitcoin. Look into it, decide not to get in. Too risky.
Several months pass.
Hear about Bitcoin again, see how much the price has risen.
Buy a few coins, so as to not be left out.
Bitch about "early adopters" and how they "have all the coins."
"Early adopters" tell you to quit whining.
Post new thread about "fatal flaw" in Bitcoin.
Get told that "fatal flaw" is feature, not bug, get pointed to 9000 other threads where same "flaw" is discussed.
Tell friends about Bitcoin. They decide not to get in. Too risky.
Several months pass.
New users flood in, and start posting threads bitching about "early adopters" and how they "have all the coins."
Tell new users to quit whining about "early adopters".
Realize that you are now an "early adopter."

Apparently I will never be an early adopter, because I didn't take this course.  I was the same for only the first few steps:
Life cycle of a Bitcoiner:
Hear about Bitcoin. Look into it, decide not to get in. Too risky.
Several months pass.
Hear about Bitcoin again, see how much the price has risen.
Buy a few coins, so as to not be left out.
Realize that I am now in a new land, with a new currency, and penniless.  Start working for a living to earn coin.

I'm still pretty close to penniless, but at least I'm not whining all the time.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 07:32:07 AM
Realize that I am now in a new land, with a new currency, and penniless.  Start working for a living to earn coin.

Given the course of many people who did that with the USD, You may end up one of the richest bitcoiners around. Or living in a hotel, married to a pigeon.


Title: Re: Bitcoin's problem is the low rate of new coins
Post by: jdbtracker on April 23, 2013, 09:20:15 AM
Everyone has to remember that we are all Early adopters, we only have a 1.6 billion dollar market cap... we got 50 trillion dollars to go... spend your hard earned bitcoins, the more you use them the more valuable they become, So I'm going to order pizza with my bitcoins, that's my vote, I support pizza bought with bitcoins, I want to see more of that.

Bitcoin encourages saving; yes it does.

Bitcoin encourages hoarding? Certainly not; Your mindset has to change, with a system like this spending and saving makes what you have worth a lot more; Stop thinking like it's FIAT.