Bitcoin Forum

Hi guys, im new to btc and bitcointalk.org however since the emergence of ebay in early 2000s paypal has been the standard for e-payment solution, and for some f***ed up reason, paypal became a horseshit here if u want to try to buy your first bitcoin.

i have been using paypal since 2004 and ive used them to purchase itunes songs, app store, goods from online merchant, buy GuildWars2, buy virtual items *cough*epic virtual items*cough*, pay outsource freelancer, pay indian programmers, etc.

the bottom line is i want to use my paypal balance to buy some btc, im a very legit buyer but due to recent popular "paypal-reversible-scam" i became a victim that i cant use my paypal to start into this btc world.

So, may i propose this to you kind sir.
1. Lets just think this way, i want to buy your epic virtual item, thus im going to use my paypal to purchase this epic item. As a token of gratitude you sent me a btc, unbeknown to paypal system. 
I've bought alot of virtual items for my MMO games eg: WoW, Lineage2, GW2, Path of Exile, diablo3. And i think its similar concept of me buying btc.
Can you as a seller use a screenshot from chat/msg confirming that buyer has received the item? thus if the scammer-buyer try to do reversible maneuver u have the proof of that screenshot?

2. Lets pretend that you are a freelance designer and im hiring you to do an epic logo design, then i pay you for your service using my paypal account. As a token of gratitude you sent me a btc. If you really into roleplaying, just sent me some random logo from google.
Why cant this work? this is what people are doing in daily basis when they are hiring freelancer. what seems the problem here?

what say you? 

You simply tell PayPal you want to return the "epic virtual item" and get a refund for it.They won't ask you to transfer back the free BTC.

Or you can tell them that your PayPal was hacked, and get a refund as its an untangible goods purchase.

Its also a possibility that the buyer is actually using a stolen PP.

Not going to work any better.   "PayPal I don't recognize this purchase for [insert virtual item here] my account must have been hacked".

^ The account actually could be hacked as the "buyer" is using a stolen paypal account OR it could be the buyer just lying to PayPal about their account being hacked.

PayPal response to you will be ... there is no seller protection for virtual items, transaction reversed, no appeal possible.

You seem to think that the problem is not on *your* side.

There is simply no risk to you - but the seller must take all the risk on your behalf - do you see the problem here?

If you want to buy bitcoins then *forget about paypal* and then move on (if you keep at it then it will be assumed by most here that you are not trying to anything but *use* the paypal system to get free bitcoins as has happened many times before).

but the seller have a proof from our conversation that ive received the items.

Also, if this is the case, what happen to those people who usually buy virtual items or gold from chinese farmer? they coulda say the same shyit to paypal? is it paypal really that dumb and easy to give people refund??
i bet paypal will ask the corresponding seller about the complain first right? and the seller can present paypal about the screenshot of the conversation??
for some weird reason, ive never heard about this uproar about reversible/refund to paypal in MMORPG ecosystem.

Just do some searching and you'll see paypal will reverse *anything* for *anyone* (it is their basic principle to protect the buyer and not care about the seller - and especially if the seller is some nobody to them).

As suggested *forget about paypal* and enjoy Bitcoin.

Been living under a rock? This has been going on for years.

Doesn't matter, PayPal's policy is no protection for virtual goods.


90% of the time, yes.


There is an appeal's process, once they figure out its a virtual good, however, seller looses no matter what.


I have. http://paypalsucks.com

Yes PayPal is that "dumb" (it actually isn't dumb.)  PayPal doesn't give a crap if you lose money.  Investigating hard to prove disputes is costly.  The time to investigate it is worth more than their 2% fee.   They aren't in the business of losing money.


Nope read the PayPal TOS.  There is no seller protection for virtual items.  If disputed as "not authorized" PayPal will refund it.  Period.  They won't even ask for screenshots and won't care what "proof" you supply.

i understand the risk that the seller will have. but what eating me alive is the fact that im a legit buyer that want to use my paypal, but so frustrated because some people before me use paypal as their scamming disposal and now im left with the consequences.

well, in that case... how about option #2 ??

Welcome to reality.

So assuming you are legit (and I'm not assuming anything else) then *please* just *let paypal go* (even better - delete your account as I did).

:)

if i know paypal was this broken, i wouldnt use it back then.
but then again, i have a few thousand usd there.
i live in South East Asia now, so i need a convenient way to buy itunes songs, app store, mmo virtual items. Apple,Inc seamlessly withdraw the fund from my paypal.

Long ago I managed to convince PayPal that a buyer who made multiple purchases of digital goods and reversed them was doing it on purpose and gaming the system. I forwarded emails, screenshots of conversations (including from within eBay), and a ton of other proof. It took a lot of work and like a month for them to agree with me. Two weeks later, the buyer created credit card disputes since the PayPal were closed. PayPal immediately refunded all of her money, closed my account because I was a fraudulent seller, and held all of my funds for 6 months.

You're living in SE Asia and are paying for any of those things?

Well one can only admire your willingness to pay for things that you don't need to. :)

(hint - use Android and get your money out of paypal)

thanks for the fast respond guys, i really appreciate it.

However, we still left option #2 open.
what happen if i use paypal to pay someone for their service (freelance designer, outsource dev house) ?? their work isnt consider as virtual item right? it fall into "service" category, does paypal protect the seller in this category??

any input Blazr? CIYAM Open? KWH? DeathAndTaxes?

A long story cut short - it's trivial to reverse anything on PayPal if you ask your CC company to reverse it for you. QED.


I'm in SEA now, and I do pay for those stuff too. What's wrong with the region?  ???

I just don't think it will work no matter how you want to try and frame it (reminds me of Sunday trading fights back in Australia when you could buy a *book* for a thousand dollars and *get a free pool table*).

I honestly cant see this working much better... Granted, I really have not used PayPal in a few years.
Maybe the risk is still there, maybe not. The bigger challenge will be getting someone to go along with it. It really does not matter how PayPal views the transaction if no one trusts the most worthless payment processor to ever exist.

I didn't say anything was *wrong* - just that copyright and patents are not so important in much of it (not a bad thing IMO).

Yep. Freelancers get hit with chargebacks as well, its still considered an intangible good, if there is no tracking number then the chances are a chargeback will be successful.

OP - is that a US paypal?

Hi,

Today I buy just 2BTCs for test the localbitcoins.com network and I used Paypal; the only thing asked by the seller was my Paypal account were verified and pay the fee for international purchase (8%). Fast and easy I got my first 2BTCs.

Just search a seller who accept PayPal.

When I bought what I thought was a legitimate WIN7 ultimate, which turned out to be a fake, it was not an easy task to get a refound.

Might have been that I flat out refused to return the counterfeit item (still got it).

-I had to provide proof in the form of pictures and referals from Microsoft before I finally got a refound. And then I think it really was the seller who caved in(MS did not care too much either.). To bad I'm not a rich man, cause then I would have turned up at his home adress with some goons. ;)

To learn all about the concept of risk...
Why don't you just mail cash to your new friends...
And they will promise to send you BTC.

Everytime you're dealing with Paypal on a regular basis you're going to get hit with these kinds of scams. It always happens, there's no way around it.


Here are the steps you follow to win every dispute. This is when you're dealing with virtual currencies.


1) Get an email from the person who is buying the item from there VERIFIED Paypal email address. What you want them to include is a filled out order form, you will send this from your REGISTERED paypal email.

Include all the item specifics. So say if you are going to be selling someone a Bitcoin, the order form would look something like this. You can also give them a random order # which will just add onto the evidence.

Product:
Bitcoin Address:
Amount of Purchase:
Is this purchase for Bitcoins (y/n):

2) If you can you need to get some other form of proof such as ID or there phone # attached to the Paypal account. You call the number and ask if they're okay with the payment and you're just making sure etc.

3) Screenshot all the chat logs and your transaction being sent to the BTC address

4) If they reverse the payment upload all the screenshots and information to Paypal Resolution center


I've had disputes filed against me three or four times and using these methods I have won all of them.

I hope you are getting a nice premium on those coins, cause I probably wouldnt do that.
Sell coins, PayPal > Bank - 3 days. Bank > Dwolla - 3 days. Buy coins. A lot can happen with BTC in 6 days.
Then you are still at risk, even if you won every other time. Plus, that is a lot of work just to hopefully be able to prove a legit purchase.

If they dispute the charge with the credit card company, you will loose. If the account is hacked/stolen, you will loose.

I've won them even when they dispute with there CC company. What I do is designed to weed out hacked/stolen paypal accounts. Obviously someone using a hacked/stolen Paypal account wouldn't be able to provide that kind of Info.

Not really, it takes like 30 seconds to send an email and another 30 seconds to call there registered phone # or to ask for ID. Screenshots take about 30 seconds. That's what you have to do if you want to use Paypal, unless you can find an easier way, let me know.

Well then you are extremely lucky, I've had disputes filed over physical goods that were ordered with a stolen CC via PayPal and still lost even though I had tracking info etc. If the CC company take back the funds, your SOL, PayPal aren't going to pay you out of their pocket.

Yeah that's why I follow those steps to weed out the people using hacked/stolen Paypal accounts and CC's.

yes i use US paypal, its linked to my Bank of America account (CA branch).

I'll get you BTC if you can send money by western union or Xoom. US paypal can be used in both the cases, I think.

guys, check this out.

paypal for paying goods and services (covered with BUYER PROTECTION)
http://i34.tinypic.com/23iib2c.jpg


paypal for sending money to friend or family as a gift (no BUYER protection)
http://i36.tinypic.com/oiamqg.jpg


does this seems reasonable?

The forum is all a bunch of retards when it comes to paypal I sell for paypal everyday and have for 11 months and have sold tons of coins on ebay too. It is VERY VERY easy to get fucked, but I have had a total of 2 charge backs both for small amounts. If you do it right you can sell for paypal without a bunch of bullshit. Everyone here hates on it and hates on it and this and that, but I like paypal it is my prefered payment method it is not 100 percent but the way I do it fucking works!

Look at the source when these hero members tell you paypal is the devil, they have a financial incentive to keep people with limited access to coins. There is a safety concern but just be diligent and learn the risks, then but a process in place that prevents them.   

+100
QFT

Traded with 18RATT, his paypal usd for my ltc all went smoothly after we got on the same page about limits.
Thanks

I've been doing business using Paypal for about 7 years now. I say that Paypal is not my preferred payment method not just because of the chargebacks and totally buyer friendly nature. But I've had terrible nightmares when contacting their customer care and talking with the representatives. I was/am selling SEO services on my websites. Even with the dispute team, trying to make them understand that I'm only selling virtual item and no actual shipping is possible, they just dont heed to the seller, whatsoever. In all these years, I've had few many chargebacks, not because of the service I was providing, but mostly because of the nature of payments made (hacked accounts, unauthorized transactions.. you name it, they have it). Every time you call them up to explain your situation, they simply turn you down with a robotic 'buyer is right' message. I've lost quite a chunk of money because of these chargebacks and buyer initiated disputes. If you still havent had any problem with Paypal, well, wait until you get one. I'm sure every dog has its day, especially with Paypal. They simply love fcuking those innocent small businesses. I'm not a kid to have used Paypal for a few weeks and then to start whining about them. My business account's history and transactions speaks for how much they've earned as fees, from the transactions I've done. I was/am waiting for that day when Paypal goes down. And I really hope that BTC is 'the one' to take 'em down.

you sound like a cry baby. You are selling an item that they cant verify. Let the seller beware. Oh boohoo paypal wont insure my transactions. I insure my own transactions for digital items. If you know how to trade when the transaction isnt insured then you will have no problem.

All it boils down to is "let the seller beware"   

I should have clarified I have been selling coins for the last 11 months I have been using paypal for 5 or 6 years 

Oh well, not everyone are as smart as you smartypants. Atleast, I dont claim that way. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If you've been doing something with good success rate, well, thats good for you. And you dont have declare that in an open forum just to make a winner out of you. I never even mentioned about you in my post and I dont know what made you to initiate a personal attack.
If they cant verify a transaction, then they should never even allow sellers doing such transactions in the first place, right. They've allowed virtual goods to be bought, and that simply means there has to be equal protection for the buyer and the seller. Disputes have to be analyzed well before they even close it in buyer/seller's favor. Do they do that? NO, they dont. It boils down to seller beware just because of this.
Now, would you let all the 'cry babies' here know your ideas and tips about trading carefully using Paypal? NO, you wouldn't  ::)

I never even mentioned about you in my post and I dont know what made you to initiate a personal attack.

Really who do you think you quoted?
 
No personal attack I was just letting you know your vagina is bleeding, its okay everyone is butt hurt at paypal   

I will gladly give tips to avoid scammers

The best way to avoid a charge backs is to establish the identity of your buyer and confirm that they are the owner of the account. Then put limits in place and raise them slowly.

I confirm identity several ways, with my system email, facebook, paypal, location, name, Ip address must all match.
The best way is to get your buyer to up load a picture Id and check it against their PP account.

I have tons of other tips but if you follow these you will prevent 99.98 percent of scammers and charge backs

I insure my transactions buy charging 6 percent above spot and raising limits slowly that way if a buyer charges back it will be partly profit form selling to them.

thanks for the trade sublime, recommended seller.

I'm not sure about 99.98% but your methods will certainly provide a lot of protection. What it amounts to is that selling BTC for Paypal requires a trust relationship with the buyer. This takes time and effort to build up, and you still have to build a risk premium into the price. Most sellers and buyers don't want to go to all that effort, break their (illusion of) anonymity, and spread a deal out over multiple small transactions. They want to press a few buttons, receive their money and go do something else. Paypal doesn't work like that when you're selling something equivalent to cash; especially when that something is delivered electronically.

Exactly it is an uninsured transaction so you have to trust one another the only good way to establish trust is the build it slowly over time. It is a ton of work for me to sell coins and I spend a lot of time messing with people who are trying to scam. I always follow my rules and almost never get screwed.

I am in process of creating a service that solves the paypal problem.  Stay tuned.