Bitcoin Forum

the network is in disarray, the price crashed, the exchanges give out our info to the governments, the accounts got hacked, the money stolen.

bitcoins lost to the bankers' covert action, better luck next time.

Um. I already made a country on here. Be gone.

We are just getting started.

Price is fine
Everything's up and running at full speed
hell are you talking about?

He's not the one talking. It's the free coke he got to make troll posts. That's who's talking.

I made a country here. In my country you have to pay for your coke. No freebies.

Just like they've been "winning" against P2P filesharing all this time...oh wait...

This.

If governments and bankers defeat bitcoin, they will not defeat the many similar systems that are created to replace it, each designed to resist such attacks in a new way. Bitcoin was designed to resist attacks that defeated other internet money systems.

We will win because most people agree that communication is everyone's right, and Bitcoin is just a decentralized calculator, not even complex enough to have a multiply and divide, just plus and minus.

Yes, I think you made a good point. It's not Bitcoin that's the threat so much as it's the cryptocurrency concept in general.

SURE IS FEARMONGERING IN HERE

*cowers in corner*    ::)

for me this is about open source... i started using linux bout 8 year ago, i have resurrected machines without hard drives and converted about 6 of my friends.. it never ceases to amaze me. The concept of complete transparancy is an amazing one anyone and their dog can suggest an improvement or a tweak to any line of code at any level. Nothing is hidden... This must scare bankers sh*tless.... To me bitcoin has got to be worth a punt at the very least so get a few bob you can afford to lose and buy bitcoins... i believe in transparency it equates to honesty and integrity and strength.. that is why i will not flinch... bring it back down to pennies i will still be in.....

Largely agreed. I am rather certain there will be a US crackdown on Bitcoin within the next couple years, and that typically results in most other western governments jumping on board given the complete absence of sovereignty in monetary and security policy today. However, as with P2P there will be many Sparticus-like successors after said crackdown.

Bitcoin is already being blamed for funding illegal activities today, but if it thrives significantly into the future I imagine it will also be blamed for "currency fluctuations" and the death of the world's reserve currency. There is a great void of scapegoats on the horizon and a voluntary, open source currency will fit the bill for governments when the proverbial shit hits the fan.

Government can't ultimately win as long as people resist with innovation and defiance of immoral laws, but it sure can make things painful in the process.

The machine controls the shit and the fan. Bitcoin is taking control of the fan or the shit depending on whom you ask.

If they outlaw arithmetic (buyer subtracts and seller adds), then there are simpler things that decentralize their power. For example, counting is simpler than arithmetic, but what would happen if somebody offered a lot of money to count the number of federal laws in USA and prove it to the standards of science (not even including the state and city laws, something simple to start with). Many people, motivated by the large offer of money, would start to research just the quantity of laws in USA and, to their surprise, would find that nobody knows or can calculate it. So you offer a lot of money to count something simpler, to work up to counting the laws... Offer money to count how many letters are in the USA constitution, proven to the standards of science. It's an integer. Prove what integer it is, and you win X amount of money. Somebody does that. They continue offering money prizes and counting more and more complex things, motivated by the observation that after each thing is counted people start to notice more things wrong with the system as it is now, until somebody offers a million dollars to count the number of people carrying guns in a certain area the government thinks is important. And all of a sudden, the government outlaws counting. First they outlaw arithmetic then outlaw counting. When people see how rediculous that is, things change.

Are the bankers making fake accounts again? lol

I don't think, that anybody will win against bitcoin.

Its the power of many!

:)

Plot the price with semi log scaling. The chart looks perfectly ok, still no singns of trend reversal, only a massive rally and its inevitable 50% correction afterwards.

If you ever spent some time (years!) trading the markets you will notice this looks completely normal in volatile markets, 50% correction of any given price-difference between start of the rally and end of the rally (on all time scales, minutes, weeks, years, etc.) happens all the time in all markets. The 50% is a significant number, traders place orders at these levels and patiently wait for it to happen.

lame attempt at lowering prices is lame.

Well, the banks I cant attest victory or defeat to, but i can say as far as governments go, they cant win the fights with thier own currencies, let alone bitcoins.

Bitcoins have something that the world has almost forgotten the true concept of. The free market.

The real death of the the bitcoin will be when u can start depositing them in chase bank and use them at 7-11 for a soda

You forget how easy it is to stop all bitcoin network traffic by blocking packets with deep packet inspection. Maybe bitcoin over freenet has better chances, but with the resources goverments have it's almost impossible to not get blocked by DPI and packet fingerprinting/statistical methods, I think.

I have yet to see evidence that government or banks are even attempting to fight bitcoin.

Philipp

P.S.: A senator or two giving an interview calling for action doesn't count.

Governments have already trained the mindset of the public to reject new concepts such as Bitcoins. There's no need for an urgent massive attempt when the audience that Bitcoin needs to please are naturally fearful. Just look at the CBS report. In this sense, the government already has an upper hand.

Plus, it's very easy to use dis-info agents as well. There was something in the news about how the US have developed training and "personality generators" designed to spread propaganda on the net, specifically in message boards.

Yes. Take it from someone who was in the room when the loot was distributed.

This is true. No government has been able to defeat P2P network so this is the strenght of bitcoin. The internet and P2P are here to stay. Down with the Matrix

Everything goes according to my plans... :)

I was hopeing for a worthwile read from op.  Good stuff in th comments though.

They can't win, and even if its outlawed, the outlaws will have bitcoins, and many will turn to being an outlaw.

I'm appalled that you think they wouldn't want to and considering the little effort involved in debunking the trollfest on these threads (wonder where it came from) why no one should be careful.

Why would "the government" or "the banks" wnt to shut down bitcoin? Those thinking startegically about a possible loss of power due to bitcoin replacing fiat currences most likely do not see bitcoin as a real threat yet: They won't act unless bitcoin becomes a real problem for them (if they cared for every little project that showed some potential there'd be a thousand things they's have to fight at once).

What we see now is two senators discovering something that can be connected to drugs, noticing that no one else tried to turn it into political profit yet; they just grab the opportunity to appear "tough on crime".

I do think that some governments will try to take action against bitcoin at some point in the future, and so will some banks. But I do not think that there are any governments or banks actively fighting bitcoin today.

If bitcoin fails today, it is not governments or banks winning a fight, it is bitcoin failing without any action from governments or banks.

Philipp

Every one fears a goat from in front, a horse from the rear and a fool on every side.

You answered your own question right there. It takes almost 0 effort for someone high up in the executive branch to kill off the American portion of bitcoin. FBI has jurisdiction on interstate commerce and the Secret Service has jurisdiction on counterfeiting (I am not saying bitcoin is counterfeiting, I'm saying they can successfully sell it to the media as an anti-counterfeiting operation).  There are dozen of bureaucrats in DC with this much power, and all they have to do is sent out a memo to their underlings. A simple email.

If they succeed, they gain political prestige. Tough on crime, war on drugs, et cetera.

If they fail, they can claim it's just part of their job. In the very worst case they are still protected by the Executive privilege.

So far, two Senators have cashed in on this free "political profit". I expect many more to follow suit. This is how ugly our democracy has become.
 

There are other senators pushing other issues the think they can get politiccal profit from. Only some of these pet issues will amke it into legislation; we, the Bitcoin community, notice these two senators, since their issue is Bitcoin. All politicions are pushing for or against some issue. I do not see why Bitcoin should be among the few issues that make it into legislation. Then I don't know that much about your democracy.
I have seen the call for internet censorship to fight CP in Germany, it became a big political issue, made it into yellow press and legislation, and nevertheless in the end it failed, with the law now revoced. Bitcoin might be in for a similar treatment, but it might take a few years.

Philipp

What really saddens me as much as the potential for something like bitcoin to be made illegal is that we all see it as a very real possibility.  What has our government come to when we all expect it to eventually outlaw a brilliant new innovation just because it would be something that benefits the people at the potential expense of the banking industry?!  Imagine this discussion in another context, such as the invention of cars.

Driver: "Check out my new motorized buggy!"

Observer: "The government is going to outlaw that because it will let people travel easier and it will hurt the horse industry."

So why waste the opportunity to be prepared when it's easy?

I emphasized "executive" twice in my post because I expect only politicians in the Executive branch can damage the bitcoin economy.

Politicians in the legislative branch are not a real threat to bitcoin because exactly like you said, legislative issues could take years to become laws and they cannot prosecute people retroactively. That means even in the worst case scenario American bitcoin users could have months to gradually leave the market, thereby minimizing their losses and with no legal precautions to worry about.

Politicians in the executive branch, on the other hand, has the ability to freeze Mt Gox's funds within a day and subpeaona the withdrawl records of all American users. Like I said before, this can be branded as "war on drugs" operation, or "anti-money laundering" operation, or "anti-tax evasion" operation. Many law enforcement agencies, such as FBI, Secret Service, and even the IRS has enough authority and manpower to accomplish this. These types of politicians are the ones I'm worried about the most.

The victory condition for them is trivially low. They do not a need a successful conviction. They do not need a successful arrest. They do not even need to press any charges against anyone. They only need a subpoena from a Federal judge to crush Mt. Gox's reputation and destroy people's trust in bitcoins. Big media will spin it into "underground currency under investigation by XXXX", then critics of bitcoins will then spin that into "bitcoins declared illegal".



Sorry if I sound like a troll, but I'm just voicing my personal fears. If anyone can point out any errors in my arguments then I would love to hear them, since it would make me sleep much better at night.

 





  

Well, time to pack up and go home, kids.

I think most of us are home, kekekeke.

iamzill:  It would be rather difficult for any US agency to shut down or subpoena Mt Gox, since it is not a US-based company.  It is located in Japan.  That said, even if they did manage to shut down Mt Gox, Bitcoin is decentralized.  The void in the market will create further incentive for new such services to arise to meet the growing demand.  And, if the fear is that the US will attempt to shut them down again, they'll simply put these companies in countries that are uncooperative with US Authorities.

Also, consider the following:

Total BTCs in circulation: approx 6,584,000
Total in Mt Gox: 29,893.83
Total percentage of BTCs held by Mt Gox: 0.45%, or 1 in 220.

Bitcoin will go on.  The single effective threat right now is for the media to demonize Bitcoin and discourage people from getting involved.  But the system has been built such that any attempt to 'shut it down' is rather likely to fail.

The public media in the US doesn't even take itself seriously. I doubt the corporations have a chance.

Time for me to initiate phase 3 of the new world order.. MUAHAHHA

My god. The air is thick tonight with the classic self-confidence of the INTJ crowd.

Just about everything going on right now (fraudulent war, fraudulent bank foreclosures, economic disasters, theft of infrastructure by corporations) should be triggering alarms at all times.

The unlikelihood of success in attacking bitcoin is irrelevant.
What's relevant is the need of bitcoin to mature regardless of what uses one or another might find.
What's relevant is the fact that those who want to build something with bitcoin are the most vulnerable to even the slightest marginalization.
What's relevant is the amount of risk and loss they face regardless of how others might escape a lame attack.

A failure of anti-bitcoin legislation is still a painful reality.
The drug war failed, right?