Bitcoin Forum

I notice they always want $160 -- not $150, or $170, but $160 -- as in, they'd like to make a nice even "fifty" on their deal.

I've run into several of these guys -- but they (and their would-be customers) need to learn a few things:

1. The 5830 doesn't make BTC fly out of your orifices. It's just a good video card for mining at the $110 price point.
2. The 5830 is one of the best entry-level mining cards there is -- when purchased for $110 or $120.
3. There are other cards that perform as well -- if not better -- at the $160 price point.

...and...pay attention here, boys...

4. The BTC mining market, while still profitable, is hardly in a "manic growth" phase anymore (or at least it shouldn't be). Newsflash! BTC aren't trading for $30 anymore. Anyone who's bought cards for a quick buck is LATE TO THE PARTY. As in, 3 weeks late. And we've had one Difficulty Reset since those halcyon $30 days as well (with another coming at the end of this week!)

5. The 5830 brings in 0.26 BTC per day (going by 255 MH/s). At the current market price of $11/BTC, that's $2.86 BEFORE YOU SUBTRACT ELECTRICITY and any conversion to USD fees. It will take a long time to earn $120 back, nevermind $160.

No dude, the market's on its way to recovery and that's actually a bargain.

Quit being such a troll.

You really cheapen the meaning of troll by throwing it around at anyone who disagrees with you.

Go ahead, think that we're still in a manic bubble -- I'll stay over here in reality, thanks. You buy that 5830 for $160, and I'll buy it off you for $70 in a few weeks.

Oh c'mon you're smarter than that aren't you?

What, were you being sarcastic when you said I was being a troll and that we're on the way to recovery?

You got me; I thought you were serious.

You're a troll Angelus, all you do is post systematic propaganda for your own financial gains.

Can someone here define troll for me?  I mean, objectively?

A troll is someone who joins a forum to "troll for responses" by offending the members of a given forum. He's messing around with their heads, and doesn't really belong there.

Just for starters, I have 3.5 Gh/s of mining hardware going right now -- I belong here as much as any of you.

I just disagree with certain posters here, and I oppose those who would take advantage of the ignorance of certain people. Selling a 5830 to somebody for $160 today is like trying to trade a king size candy bar to a small child for their "stupid piece of paper" $5 bill. It's just WRONG. It's taking advantage of ignorance.

I don't need to talk up bitcoin mining -- greed does just fine in that department. What we need is more of ME around to keep people thinking rationally.

The truth hurts though, and I didn't ever expect to popular for spouting it. Oh well. C'est la vie.

Agreed. Just look at his posts all over the FS section.

FYI -- Borito's just mad because I'm dispelling the ignorance he's preying on.

I'm costing him his "quick $50"s and he doesn't like it. Well, that's natural and to be expected.

How about someone attack me with some FACTS -- tell me why the 5830 is great at ANY price -- rather than calling me names. You know, it makes you look childish like you've lost the argument. It's called an "ad-hominem" attack. That's where you attack the arguer instead of his argument. It's the last resort of those who have no rebuttal to an argument...

Oh man, ad hominem and red herring constitute 95% of this userbase's debate arsenal.

C'mon you've seen that already Angelus. Don't let yourself start slipping now.

You're right, I've seen plenty of that around here.

Angelus Stats:

Total Posts:   230 posts
Total Topics Started:   41 topics

Jebus. 5:1 Post:Topic creation ratio.

Im not mad, I sold my cards at their asking price.

5830s can very easily do 300Mh/s btw

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

It just means I'm used to leading the conversations on fora.

It also might mean I have more to contribute than the average member. I certainly have more age, knowledge, and experience than at least 1/2 the members here.

I've run a message board for the past 5 years. So I'm used to being more of a leader than a common member; it's a habit any forum owner can probably relate to.

Yes, in theory. But I don't screw around with OC to the max -- I had one of my Sapphire 5830's running pretty cool at 292 MH/s for over a day -- then I almost couldn't get the card working again. I decided to be more conservative in my OC after that. If I want more MH now, I'll buy another card. It's not worth my time to overclock. I'm a professional web developer; I make a lot more than $8 or $10 an hour :)

As always, it depends on the person. For example, if I had only 1 or 2 video cards, a $10/week allowance, and was living with mom, I might be more inclined to overclock...

Good for you. I'm just going to make sure that everyone is armed with sufficient knowledge, so that you (and others like you) won't be able to sell them for $160 next time  ;)

To those complaining about people buying 5830s for resale.  Get a life.  

People can do whatever they want.  It's called freedom, and while I don't agree with buying an item only to resell at a profit, I don't have an issue with it.  I do have an issue with you trying to tell people what to do.  Grow up and stop trying to play god.  It's freedom that makes bitcoins enticing and your attitude doesn't belong in this community no matter how much computing power you bring to the network.

Someone who claims to be a miner, but all of his posts are about how much bitcoin sucks, how it's a "bubble" that is about to burst,
how Satoshi is the antichrist and a CIA agent, how the price will never go past $12 and it will just be banned in every country in the world.

If it's not worth your time to even setup your rigs properly why are you spending abnormal amounts of time filling this forum with garbage?

Someone who claims to be a miner, but all of his posts are about how much bitcoin sucks, how it's a "bubble" that is about to burst,
how Satoshi is the antichrist and a CIA agent, how the price will never go past $12 and it will just be banned in every country in the world.

I'm not telling anyone what to do.

I'm giving them food for thought. "Free information" is quite in the spirit of Bitcoin.

If anyone has a problem with it, it's because their own greed is being thwarted.

All you who are "poisoning the well" by trying to get people to ignore what I have to say -- you're the ones with the agenda.

Your information is free sure, but free information != accurate information.

Not exactly a definition of troll, but at any rate it doesn't describe me. You seem to have me confused with someone else.

Oh yeah?

Quote me just ONE THING I SAID that was inaccurate.

I'm waiting.

Which of my concrete facts do you have a problem with?

Very first post I found by you was inaccurate:

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20066.msg252182#msg252182

I publicly admit I don't know for sure; I only know that it's probably not a good idea. It can't do your fan any favors.

I might be wrong about the fan lifespan.

I am always willing to admit when I'm wrong, and I never want to claim certitude about anything I'm not 100% certain about.

(As an aside, I don't think many people on this forum are professional engineers -- most are going by personal or anecdotal evidence at best)

I heard many knowledgeable people say that running a fan at 100% will drastically shorten its lifespan. That seems reasonable to me. I certainly would not crank it up that high, just in case.

At any rate, I'm not willing to stake my credibility or reputation on this one point.

Matthew

Is that it?

What a disappointment.

The closest thing to an agenda that I have is wanting to kill zombies in Call of Duty.

You however, obviously have an agenda.  

ok, except I grabbed ten 5830 from newegg at $109 last week, and posted in the sell forum here, they were sold out at $160+ price in matter of hours, and tons of people asking me if I got more.

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=17624.msg225276#msg225276 (http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=17624.msg225276#msg225276)

Sorry I was elsewhere; dealing with trolls isn't my full time hobby, but your full time hobby of trolling obviously means more to you than actually mining bitcoins. Pfft to you sir.

Every post you try to spin, it's laughable.

already running at the maximum power in my basement, any more rigs I'm afraid they'd melt my power wiring or something.

Hahahaha, lightspeed, this is funny..


The sky is falling! 

 - No its not...

   - YES IT IS!

- not its not....

The anti climatic response by angelus admitting he could be wrong was just that...




Cool story bro!

At this point buddy..

No one cares... I didnt even write what you put above me..

meh..

Also, I have some 5830's for sale for around 160. PM if interested.


this is the appropriate thread right?

Ill take 2 :D

Assuming 300mhash/s, bitcoin price of $17 and difficulty of 877k, a 5830 will create ~$188 per month at current difficulty (wont last that long - just an example), $141 per month at the next difficulty level, and about $103 per month at 1,500,000 difficulty.

If you buy today, it will pay itself off if you bought at $109 or even $160. More so if BTC price rises. While no difficulty level at this point will generally last a month (2 weeks or less actually), the rises aren't steep enough to make mining unprofitable. Even after you gain back 100% of the buy price at 1,5m difficulty, you will be gaining $80 per month profit at current prices.

Worth it with a single card? If you are just some random gamer then sure. Don't count on it for a living though. At 2 million difficulty you will be making $50 bucks per month at current prices.

At 3m difficulty, either prices will go up or ~90% of casual miners will give up and thus drive the difficulty down to about 2.4m.

Jack of Diamonds, I respect you for being the FIRST PERSON SO FAR TODAY to actually argue with the numbers themselves, rather than just shooting the messenger.

I personally don't think 300 MH/s is a reasonable expectation. Overclocking carries risks, and not every card can reach 300. I had problems at 292 with a Sapphire card (which are the best, BTW). AND if you're overclocking you're also using more than 160W, so the greater electricity usage must be subtracted at the other end.

Bitcoins aren't $17 at the moment -- we should go by the current price to be fair. Naysayers could just as easily calculate at $10, while you calculate at $17. Maybe the answer is to show the figures for $10, $15, $20, and $25? Let the would-be buyer make the choice about what he thinks the market will do. So if he loses his money, he'll have no one to blame but himself. But at least he'll know what he's getting himself into.

How many BTC are you saying they'll make per day? According to Deepbit's estimator, which I believe takes Pool commissions into account, one would make 0.30 BTC/day at a hashrate of 290MH/s.

.30 BTC/day times $17 (a generous figure -- which I'm sure we both hope for. I'm a miner myself) is $5.10 a day. But difficulty will go up before any cards bought today could go online. It will be at least 30% (this much is fact). So your monthly projection is already way off.

Monthly projections are *very, very* deceptive because they always fail to take Difficulty increases into consideration. And difficulty increases are a fact of life. It's foolish to deny them or treat them like they don't exist.

Matthew

I bought 2 about a week and a half ago, costing $240 with fees and crap. I was on track to pay them off, but one of the fans died on one card, so now I'll be lucky if I break even after I have to pay for repairs.

I'll shoot the messenger. Stop being a troll/douche and freaking people out about your perception of the current numbers of one possible function of the cards, and leave it here. Not only do you troll your own topic, but you troll all the 5830 postings out there. It's not like its mines btc exclusively, and who knows what the numbers will be like in X months, where mining does or doesnt pay off. You're no different than (BUY! SELL! MINE! DON'T MINE! THE SKY IS FALLING! I'M BEING USEFUL!).

IN THE END, it's still a decent card, and for a decent price, it mines well and plays great (and alot better than most of the comparable cards out there). You can have your opinion, we don't have to respect it (especially when you act like a hypocritical troll).

I covered the issue of difficulty in that post, even taking in account the profit at 1.5m and 2m.
Also, $5.10 per day is still $153 per month. At the next difficulty level the user will create about $122 worth of bitcoins per month, and even at 1.5m about $100 dollars per month.

Those are for arguments sake. In reality, expect difficulty rises at least every 14 days or more often. This could change though if difficulty rises too high.

I'd say 3 million is already too high at current prices because it will make mining unprofitable for nearly every casual miner, even those who freeload electricity.

If you review some of this guys posts, all he posts is negative trolling comments. I really think this guy may just be a pimple faced nerd trying to feel big on the internet.

Anyway I'm one of his victims where he trashed my thread not only with his trolling, but ignorance as well.

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=19643.0

When you want to sell a car for $3000 your always going to list it for more, same concept here. I never expected $160, I stated anyone can make a offer.

I really need some of this...
http://www.idratherbecrawling.ca/pics/TrollSprayBillyMays.jpg

Yeah, I think the troll started this thread in response to yours, and his mom buying back the cards he was selling for a large loss.

I love theorycrafting when people project profitability months ahead based on a fixed BTC value.  If you're going to get all goofy and assign it a fixed value, why not $50 or $83.26 per BTC?  Difficulty can be predicted, with a fair degree of certainty.  Exchange rates can not.

Try 8 days -- that's been the reality for some time now...

Ok...8 days...4 days....1 day...constant difficulty increase!

Still, troll, what's the exchange rate? What's the pool like? Are you mining bitcoin? Are you mining namecoin? Are you mining newcoin? Are you playing COD4 on awesome?

A card is still worth a card, troll.

A 30 day average is a good starting point. BTC is still sold and bought even if Mt. Gox is down.
I don't understand why so many people fail to realize this.

Go to bitcoincharts.com and see that thousands of bitcoins are still being traded in other places.

I know you are but what am I  ::)

What are we, in 3rd grade?

Of course, you were probably in 3rd grade when Call of Duty was first released...

 :P burp  ;D

OH SNAP!

Star Trek FTW! :D

Just beat them with data! Put up some nice graphs + calculations and let everyone make up their own mind, if a 5830 @ 170USD is really worth it (hint: It isn't!).

$170, probably not. $109/$100/$125/$85, troll-proof.

At the risk of being thrown onto the spit to roast with the OP, I thought it was a good post.
With so much talk about the scarcity and great value of the 5830, it can be easy for one to get carried away and jump on any one that comes along.  Now there's more information out there.

Who's the bigger troll, the guy who starts a "troll thread" or the guy who comes along and trolls it? Yes, paying $50 or $60 more for the card will mean paying it off later, or never as in the case of the casual miner who loses interest. No, there's nothing wrong with reselling the cards for whatever people will pay, as long as you're not misrepresenting the product. Yes, it's probably debatable whether 300 Mhash is a reasonable expectation, although 320 is easily possible with at least some cards. And no, the 5830 doesn't have the best power efficiency of cards in its price range, although it's hard to beat in that price range for Mhash per dollar spent.

You are definitely a troll.

$160 for a 5830 isn't near as bad as the greedy people that want $300+ for a 5870

Angelus, to me at least, seems to stick to posting fact or math based information, which can only lead to everyone making better decisions, and yet everyone here seems to think he's a troll because the conclusions he comes to, based on empirical data, are not in line with everyone's expectations. The post of Angelus have been useful to me several times. If anything, the people attacking him without discrediting any of his arguments are the trolls.

Okay, this thread has gone on long enough. There are no actual posters in this thread, just trolls.

I am tired of getting this thread reported to multiple times a day.

It is now locked.