Bitcoin Forum

I started to define "functioning economy" but I'll leave it to the reader to interpret.

You have to make bitcoin both safer and more usable.

The next step is a better functioning community. As garzik has said all this forum spamming, political hoity-toity, whining, begging, witch hunting has driven most of the business types away from here and here is where they get there info.

Make it easier within the client to dump your bitcoins onto a flash/thumbdrive, making them inaccessible until re-imported into the client. 

For example, say you have 50 bitcoins.  You want to take half of them and put them on your thumbdrive.  Insert the removable drive, and choose "export bitcoins to drive" in the amount of 25 bitcoins.  After doing this, the client would report that you have 25 bitcoins available.

When you want to pull those coins off that thumbdrive, you could just "import bitcoins from drive".

Except that you don't "have" bitcoins.  You have keys that you can use to control bitcoins in the blockchain by giving control to a different key.

The metaphor you are using doesn't really work.  You could sorta simulate the behavior that you are talking about by making a new key, sending half of your coins to it, then copying it to the flash drive and erasing from the main computer.  But that doesn't do what you want either, because a stolen key remains useful to the thief for as long as there are coins in the chain that can be controlled by it.  An attacker with your key can steal your coins at any time, even when you think you are safe because your flash drive is unplugged.

Wallet security is very hard to do, not because no one bothered to make a simple way to secure them, but because security is very hard to do right.

If the program created a new wallet file and keys, moves coins to that wallet, and quickly move them both (new wallet and new keys) to an external drive, and I quickly unplug that drive...  That wouldn't leave much of a window of vulnerability, would it?  

If that is possible, I think it would be of enormous use to end-users who might have enough bitcoins to consider putting them in a safety deposit box or other kind of safe.

Epinnoia does have a point though, regarding widespread adoption.

To fully gain traction, the client and other backup devices have to be as easy to use as a credit card. I know that the underlying mechanics aren't simple, but if such a thing could be done it would be easier for people to use them in their lives without having to plumb the depths of bitcoin security.

How hard would it be to make an embedded linux device on a USB stick that performed the functions mentioned seamlessly? I don't have that immediate answer, but it would be very cool if such a thing existed. Also, extend the concept to a chip-on-a-credit-card device. People would sign up for such a thing in droves, since they are very familiar with using credit cards.

I respect the technical underpinnings of bitcoin and the clients, but we have a long way to go before regular people will be comfortable using this technology.

This (OPEN-TRANSACTIONS): http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20425.0 (http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20425.0)

If Bitcoin makes you giddy, then this should too.

It provides the technical groundwork for an entire financial industry done right.

AND IS THERE ANYTHING WE CAN DO TO ACCOMPLISH THAT GOAL?

P.S. WHY ARE WE SHOUTING?

In my opinion, neither mainstream businesses nor users are willing to install, learn and run bitcoin software.  There are other ways to use bitcoins (i.e. instawallet), but the barrier to understanding how one uses a bitcoin is huge.

PORN.

Remember the Internet was made for porn! We need the same for Bitcoin. Once por is onboard the rest will follow.

I actually proposed something like this earlier. But even messing around with multiple wallet files is too messy and risky for the average user (lots of risk for confusion and over-writes). So rather than creating new wallet files, you would create bitcoin containers, which is basically a small wallet with just one key pair and a different file ending (maybe *.btc) to distinguish it from the regular wallet.

So to create a btc container you could have a menu somewhere in the client saying "create bitcoin container", then you would choose the amount for the container, and then where to save it. The amount would be drawn from your regular wallet and sent to the randomly created adress of the new file. If you take this file offline directly, all the bitcoins in it would be safe as long as your computer were not already compromised.

For maximum ease of use the client could even recognize *.btc files, and if you try to open them on a computer with the client installed it could ask you if you wanted to add them to your main wallet. This would make it really easy to backup and restore your bitcoins, without having to touch your wallet file, creating a new one or moving it around.

This also serves some other purposes, like sending bitcoins over e-mail to someone who hasn't given you an adress and so on.

This. Its almost impossible to have a conversation around here any more.
Its like if there was only one message board for the dollar or euro and everyone tried to project their personal agenda onto it.

The best way forward is multiple clients IMO. Right now its pretty monolithic and there is no true API.
A portable library in all the major languages that didn't require you to run the monolithic client would be a boon to the community.

Its going to be extremely hard though. Mike laid out why this is somewhere I'm too lazy to track down.

1. Better ways of communication with bitcoin users are needed, accessible for emerging bitcoin businesses. Maybe someone could create a mailing list, sending one mail per week about new sites, new versions of software, new opportunities, etc.
2. Software development is too slow, both bitcoin client, and services surrounding bitcoin. I do not see any excuse for that.
New developers are discouraged. Good ideas are ignored. Users' feedback is not listened.
3. People in charge should stop talking about government regulations, because it discourages friend businesses like Silk Road, which is basically Bitcoin's eBay, and LulzSec, who do great job as public relations in global mainstream media.
4. Stop excess moderation. People who are here disrespectfully called trolls are in fact true world's elite, influential businessmen, skilled developers, trader sharks, breakthrough thinkers and greatest philosophers of this century. Their posts should not be under any circumstances deleted, even when are annoying for unprepared minds.

I think there needs to be a gambling/ponzi scheme sub-forum. The people with creative ideas to share in regards to legitimizing BTC are being drowned out.

We need to think of more creative ways to use BTC. Something to bring outsiders in. A game like Second Life, or Civilation which will create an economy where BTC will always be worth something.

We need ways for people to earn BTC based on skill, not luck.

I think a game would be perfect for bitcoin.  My group actually has one in development, but it won't see the light of day for months and months given all our other projects (and the time it takes to code a solid non-buggy game).

I actually voted for the jobs option.  I don't have any statistics, but it's my estimate that the reason most people don't spend bitcoins is that they don't have any.  Sites like yours, especially since it seems well polished and usable, are what I see as the key.  Most regular people aren't going to go through the hassle of transferring money through 10 intermediaries so that they can buy bitcoins.  I think they might be willing to offer services though.  Once they have bitcoins, they'll probably spend them rather than sell them because, again, it's not really easy to convert to their fiat currency.

How is business on your site?  I see plenty of people posting.  Are people buying?

We need a user-friendly preconfigured live-USB Drive, and we need to make it clear to users that running bitcoin from inside their windows or mac OS is unsafe.  This liveUSB needs to be made availble right at the bitcoin.org front page.

For-profit hackers are going to find more and more sophisticated ways of getting into people's systems. The average Windows/Mac user simply does not stand a chance against an attack targeted at stealing her/his wallets, no matter how many firewalls and antiviruses she/he installs.  Also, it is unreasonable of us to expect them to be security experts.

If that doesn't happen soon, there will be thousands of cases of wallet theft and even more bad press.

EDIT: Even a liveUSB is only going to hold off the hacker storm temporarily, because it doesn't protect against rootkit, MBR, and BIOS attacks.  In the long term the only satisfactory solution for the average joe user is a dedicated piece of hardware just for bitcoin (perhaps based on a cheap smartphone).

Would it really though?  Is the average Amazon user going to say to themselves: Okay, I want to buy this Microsoft Zune (Let's imagine it's Bill Gate's daughter).  Instead of purchasing it with a credit card, I'll make a deposit with Dwolla, transfer the money to MtGox/TradeHill, beam the coins to my home computer, and then purchase the Zune.

However, offering services in bitcoin is, in my opinion, easier/better than the other options.  It's completely online, yet nobody takes a cut.

bitcoin must be safer and easier for any user to use, that means that transactions have to be reversible in the cases of frauds or mistakes. People here do like to complaint about charge back frauds from buyers/consumers, but most (volume and amounts) of ebay's early frauds were perpetrated by sellers (and large volume of small sum frauds are still from the sellers - personal experience).  ebay's (and amazon) really took off when it adopted the aggressive buyer protection program at the small expenses of the sellers, but that policy helped accelerate the adoption of online purchases by the consumers. 

most people could care less about the underlying principle of bitcoin, 99.99% of people don't care about some tinfoil conspiracy theory about currency manipulation by the fed.  most people on this forum are interested in bitcoin because they hope that bitcoin will gain value and they will benefit from it as early adopters, most don't subscribe or care about crazy conspiracy theories. 

bitcoin has a long way to go before real adoption can occur, it is now not easy or safe to use for by any standard.  it will likely be replaced with a better version of digital currency.  like they say, pioneers get slaughtered, second/third wave of settlers get the land.

I'm a newby but since I discovered bitcoin two weeks ago, the thing I notcied more is the relative pain you have to go through to get your initial bitcoins.

- Mining is not for everyone, but as of now, it's probably the most user friendly way of getting some coins (download a client, join a poll, leave your computer on).

- Buying coin... way too many hoops to go through.  It needs to be as simple as putting your credit card number and receive the coin... I understand the problem with the chargeback, but still this is where it hurt.

- Working for coin... Sure, I'd do that is I could find someone that want a service that I could offer. But as with real cash, most people are not entrepreneur. They will look at job posting and take jobs, but they don't have the skill to actually maket themselfs as a product and find clients.


Now comes the spending bitcoin...

A good part of the offer seems to be Lotto/Ponzi junk or web services. I don't buy porn or drugs.  So right now I have very limited use for the coins I have.

If the economy move to the next level, you need an easier way to find jobs that pay in bitcoin and find real value goods and services for bitcoin.

99.99% of people in the USA perhaps. Please remember that USA != World and that Americans may be a large minority, but a minority nonetheless among Bitcoin users.

Today, many countries in the world face the threat of a currency crisis, including America.  This isn't some crackhead dystopian fantasy. This is a real threat. How do I know this? Because even big corporations' CFOs are taking steps to be prepared for a possible collapse of the EUR for instance. Money doesn't lie.

I have experienced a currency crisis first hand when I was a child, where people lost more than half of their cash savings overnight.  It is a traumatic experience that scars people for life.  Those kind of people are emotionally attracted to a currency that can't be manipulated.  Currency crises happened as recently as 2001 in Argentina and 1998 in Russia. Those aren't exactly small countries.

Americans perhaps don't feel that way because they live in a bubble.  They feel that just because something has never happened it will never happen. If (when?) a currency crisis hits the US, it will take everyone by surprise, and it will be ugly, and then ordinary people will come flocking to alternative currencies.

If you can reverse a transaction for a good reason, you can reverse a transaction for a bad reason too.  And since there is no central authority, your options are "anyone can take back their coins at any time for any reason" or "no one can take back their coins ever".  One of these options is useful in the real world, the other is not.

Transaction risk, which is real, will be handled in the bitcoin world just like it is in the real world.  By third parties that are paid to manage that risk.

True you can reverse transactions for bad reasons too, some charge backs are frauds, some are just careless judgements by the arbitrators. But fraud is a business cost that is a part of any serious business calculation.  The question here is the acceptance and growth of bitcoin, without consumer's adoption, there is no bitcoin (practically speaking, not niche underground population).  

The introduction of a third party to manage transaction risks will involve fees, which party will shoulder the cost?  Right now, mtgox is eating the 25cents cost for accepting dwolla transfer, while tradehill makes the user eats the cost (which is really miserly and reflect their underlying mentality, which is why only a little faith should be placed on tradehill for responding to a crisis of their own).


The education of the average american or citizens of other developed countries is shockingly disappointing compares to the technical advancement of modern man.  With that said, the technical sophistication of an average American is still vastly superior to the citizens of the developing countries.  If an average American can't use bitcoin easily, what makes you think an average russian/argentinian can do better?  If an average American who makes $50K/yr worries/bitches about losing a $20/1btc due to fraud that can't be reverse, I am sure an average argentinian who makes $20K/yr would worry more than an average American if the same 1btc is at risk.

You say that bitcoin can't be manipulated, but how can you say that knowing (or reasonably suspect) that 2 or 3 early adopters have control of at least 10% of the total float?

And so far, bitcoin has been proven to be risky and unpractical in its current framework.

I think you missed my point.  A transaction can be reversed be the sender, the recipient, or someone else.  In bitcoin, there is no someone else, and the recipient can already reverse transactions by sending the money back.  All that is left is a way for a sender to recall their own coins.  Why would anyone accept what amounts to a loan from you in exchange for anything of value?

All fees are always paid by the buyer.  This is true even if the seller claims to be paying them, since the seller really has no choice but to pass the costs on the the buyer in the form of higher prices.  Note that this is the model currently in use around the world for virtually every non-cash transaction.

For a better functioning economy, the early adopters need to start really spending and cashing out their bitcoins.  It's never going to be a currency if it doesn't circulate.  If Bitcoin doesn't take off, it will be because of its deflationary properties, not (in the end) because of any security flaws and/or user interface issues.  Those issues can be solved relatively easily. 

If I had a stash of Bitcoins, I'd be spending them like crazy.  There's a huge labor arbitrage opportunity for people with large stashes.  There are skilled developers who are accepting them and pricing their services low in bitcoins.  So if you have a stash, start cashing it out and spending it instead of leaving it sitting around unwatched in an easily-breached account.  Don't led greed make you wait until it's at $100 a bitcoin -- you're already a millionaire.  And the chances of it reaching $100 a coin are small if more people don't start buying and spending it.

That said, I'm still optimistic.

I understood your point, what I am saying is that the consumer/buyer does not have the protection of a legitimate charge back, the sender can't reverse the transaction.  The bitcoin sender is at the mercy of the receiver.  A less nefarious example, you send btc to a business, the owner dies in an accident, there is no way for the buyer to reverse the charges. 

Also regard to tradehill, businesses exist to make money, good businesses make money without resorting to nickle and dime-ing their customers.  Passing on the 25cents for deposit is nickle and dime-ing, especially when they can make up that amount back with a $30 transaction.  I suspect that they won't be easy to deal with if there are future monetary disputes.  I do have an acct with them btw.

This is where the third party comes in.


The end result is the same.  You are paying the fee one way or the other.  Option A is to pay the fee, and know that you are paying the fee.  Option B is to pay the fee, but think that you are not.

IMO the Bitcoin community needs:

--- Anonymity. This will drive new businesses that were not possible before, and thus enlarge the Bitcoin economy. (Such as darknet hosting...)
--- Instant finality of settlement. (Necessary for e-commerce.)
--- Security. Wallets and Exchange Accounts should not continually be hacked.

IMO my own OT software goes a long way towards solving the above issues.

Additionally needed are:
--- "iPhone-easy" user interface. My own client Moneychanger is meant as a reference implementation using the OT-API; it is not meant as the best possible interface. I'll predict right now that whichever one of you writes the slickest wallet software is going to clean up. This software still does not exist in the Bitcoin community and it is sorely needed.
--- An easy e-commerce API that can be consistent across merchants. Such a system could be built on top of the OT-API. (OT does transfers, cheques, cash, and receipts. YOU have to use those tools to build your e-commerce.)
--- I think there is also a big opportunity for such an ecommerce app to provide more safety and reversibility, similar to services the credit card companies provide, except as a voluntary system. For example, escrow. (Although escrow will eventually be added to OT itself.)

how can the third party force the reverse of the charge under the current framework?

the credit card companies can reverse the charges because they control the accounts.  Are we suggesting a bitcoin banking system?

Black Markets

Silkroad is a good start, in my opinion. As fellowtraveller mentioned, anonymity (or as much as anonymity as bitcoin provides, with a little bit of effort) is one of bitcoins edges in the market. It's a reason people will go through the trouble of transferring their government issued cash through the pain in the ass process of converting it to bitcoins. As long as this process, along with the purchase of drugs, is reasonably or comparably easier than going through traditional black markets, then people will continue to use Silkroad. Providing better tools to help maintain anonymity and spreading good, solid information on how to utilize them will help.


Goods and Services to Miners

Miners are the ones who have bitcoins, right? If you're starting a brand new business in the bitcoin economy (rather than adding bitcoins to the forms of payment you accept at an existing business) then miners should probably be your target market. I've heard a lot of people call them hoarders, but that might just because they have very few things that they can buy with their bitcoins. They expect to have better and/or more options in the future to spend their bitcoins on than exist today, so they're not spending. One major service that miners utilize on a consistent basis is exchange services. Also think about their input costs and equipment requirements. I know there are folks who are already starting businesses in this area. Another category would be consumer goods for miners. Bitmunchies is a great example.


Local Meetups

A lot of people believe in Bitcoin and would gladly trade locally. I'm looking for a second hand weight set, used work boots, and a deer rifle, for instance. If there were an active meetup community then there's a good chance I'd be able to find one of the aforementioned items. Plus, there's plenty of stuff in my garage that I'm no longer using that I'd like to offload. Classifieds probably aren't the best venue for this, because there simply isn't a large enough market for people to bother checking bitcoin classifieds sites. A meetup, on the other hand, would be a great, locally oriented venue for sales of used and second hand items.


This is just off the top of my head. Personally, I think it is too early to expect brick and mortar businesses and established websites to adopt bitcoin.

Reasonable. But I do feel that the bubble help bitcoin find its way to be widely accepted.