Bitcoin Forum

BTC-e have just switched on their OKPAY service again for a few days, to allow people to move their cash into their exchange, before they switch off the service for another 2 months.

We are seeing all the various financial services throughout the world getting their cogs spun up to make the movement of fiat to a bitcoin exchange so difficult that without already having your cash in the exchange, you can't take advantage of any movements in value.  If you do want to move your fiat into bitcoins the whole process is taking longer and longer - last time it took me 2 weeks.

I don't expect US users to note how difficult it is for the rest of the world, but at this rate its going to be impossible to get enough bitcoins / altcoins into the mainstream to gain enough traction to make any success happen.

Anyone else having this problem, or am I just looking in the wrong place? - BTW, I really don't like MTGox, I don't trust them, and to only use that service to get your bitcoins seems to defeat to object of having them!

I live in Euro-land and I've had exactly ZERO problems with decent exchanges like bitstamp.net and bitcoin.de.
(and I used to trade on intersango.com as well but they're too small now, no significant volume going on anymore)

So yeah mate, I think you're looking in the wrong place :)

Why the hell would you go for a Russian exchange, having to deal with utter crap like OKPay, if there are plenty alternatives.

Because it is second largest to MtGox.

Well?  Where would you suggest?

Both bitstamp.net and bitcoin.de have their fair share of critics, and their prices do seem very high.

I also still need to transfer my sterling into something else before I can use them, so I am no better off!

Besides, I trust BTC-e far more than I do any of the other names in the exchange universe at the moment. 

of course no one is worried, we have plan Bitcoin in place, maybe they are just cracking down on regulation, maybe not, but there is still 11 million coins left to be mined.

more than enough to run the world economy, they've revealed their play, but there is still a long way to go before the end of the game.

when will the p2p exchange be built? It is already here, and there are still plenty of other exchanges that are still out of their reach; they are going to end up with a Gutenberg press problem, the more they fight it, the more they spread it.

They shut down Bitcoin, but LiteCoin is waiting in the wings with a lot of eager proteges in tow, will they be able to stop them?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=172705.0

Governments are shooting themselves in the foot when they clamp down on bitcoin exchanges.

I am depositing via SEPA to Bitstamp and it takes me ~24 hours every time, plus it costs me only flat €1.25 regardless of amount. It's not hard at all to buy bitcoins in Europe.

MtGox problems have nothing to do with government trying to shut down bitcoin, it's rather they try to shut down money laundering and black market money transfers - and everyone transferring fiat money without proper paperwork/licenses is breaking the law and suspected of these activities. This is where MtGox problems come from.

BTC-E deposit problems are similar - they care even less for paperwork and regulations so most of legitimate ways of depositing money are shut down for them. I'm not even sure if it's a registered company, at least I can't find any company details or even mention in their ToS or anywhere else on their site.

The whole thing of “bitcoin is being killed by governments” it's just a “kids were playing real money and adults catch them” issue, nothing else. If they wanted to kill bitcoin, they would hit harder. What they do is only to try to shut down unregulated mass fiat money transfers.

Isn't Webmoney.ru an exchange for bitcoin now?

You mean you have GBP and want to purchase bitcoins?

How about sending them to CurrencyFair and then withdrawing EUR to your BITSTAMP account?  (Just like you could do with TransferWise before TransferWise went away).

I'm curious, what are the most common complaints? I've had nothing but positive experiences with both (and traded quite some volume so far) but that's just me.

I'm curious, can you do a comparison of bitstamp.net and bitcoin.de's fees with those of BTC-e, including the deposit / withdrawal fees for fiat? Last time I checked, even just the ridiculous OKPay fees where already 10x as high as the total trade cost at other exchanges.

Bitstamp.net only does USD but uses very reasonable conversion rates to other fiat currencies. Seriously, have you tried them?

Why? (Note, they're Russian! ;))

Since when does the success of Bitcoin depend on being able to speculate on its value?  Bitcoin as a p2p payment system doesn't depend on that and neither should Bitcoin as a currency.  It's success shouldn't depend on being able to trade it like a commodity.

Movements of conventional currencies are already regulated and its those regulations which are affecting Bitcoin exchanges - they're not new regulations.  Exchanges know those regulations exist and know they'll be affected by them.  If they don't have the capacity to do that, then perhaps they shouldn't operate a financial service.

This is a theory and practice type of statement.

If I want to use bitcoin as a p2p payment system, I need to turn what value I have, which is in fiat, into bitcoin before I do anything.  The exchange rate that I get for my fiat is what puts an exchange value on the goods I want to buy.  So if I am spending an extra $8 on every bitcoin, then my goods are going to cost an extra $8 per bitcoin - compared to buying them with fiat in the first place!

Its the whole concept of financial regulations which created a need for bitcoin in the first place. If I have to tell a regulator who I am, what I am going to use my money on, and produce an audit trail to prove it, its going to take time. The only advantage left for bitcoin is the speed of making a purchase, and if the exchange transfer is taking forever, then I might be better off using fiat.

And, in the political paper shufflers world, that is exactly how you kill a competitor. Not through outright banning legislation, but through using paperwork treacle. It means they can always hold their hands up to any accusations of killing off with a simple it wasn't us, it was the free market that didn't want it.

How about polish exchange?

EURO in english
https://eur.bitcurex.com/


PLN currency
https://pln.bitcurex.com/

Works very well, way faster than Mtgox. IBAN/SWIFT transfers in 1 day :)

The answer is easy. Never!

P2p exchanges are only possible if you exchange p2p currencies. Fiat is meant to be centralized as much as possible. That is, if you attempt to handle fiat in p2p way you'll break a dozen of laws and regulations in every country!

Well killed is a strong word, but sending people to lobby govt. seems counter-productive for advocates of a disruptive network technology that was invented to specifically  to route around damage caused by previous regulations interfering with the natural efficient value exchange networks....

... unless they are lobbying to remove previous regulations to make the system environment freer then all they can hope to achieve is to create more obstacles that the next iteration will need to route around. We can play this game forever, why prolong it?

It seems like some people are determined not to learn ... more regulations are going to ultimately achieve nothing, if nothing else bitcoin must bear witness to that?

And it has a giant history of being reputable, and always working, and not going down.  Why WOULDN'T you use them?

Right, but you can make a "currency" out of any unique digital object.  Therefore, theoretically, you can trade anything digital.

The value of a dollar is as high as it takes to buy 1btc. These exchanges seem to me to be a way to trade in as many dollars as possible and as efficiently as possible until the dollar is regulated out of relevance.
That value, the oppurtunity to cash your $, is a limited time offer, and by definition, it will end before we expect it to.
The fall of the dollar has been eagerly anticpated.

Because OKPay.

It doesn't matter what you can make. In financial laws and regulations what matters is where you start from.

Fiat currencies are not digital objects. They are real objects. Any attempt to "map" such objects into the digital world is explicitly forbidden if you are not labeled a money service business that needs respective license from the gatekeepers!

You are mistaken, sir. More than 99% of all dollars and euros in existence are merely numbers in some bank's computer. It doesn't get much more digital than that.

And unlike gold or bitcoins, they can even be generated in any desired amount, at literally the press of a button. How 'real' is that :-\

Who cares. Peer2peer exchange infrastructure is coming soon. It doesn't matter what is 'explicitly forbidden' by some government, or how they label you. Decentralized peer2peer communication is beyond control of authority.

It does, my friend. It does. The decision of how many numbers should be created in some bank's computer is taken by some very real objects or rather subjects, not by some open source network protocol! And those real object/subjects will do whatever they can do to defend the privilege they have.

It is not "some" government. It is every government on this planet.

Face it! You can not legally create and operate p2p exchange for fiat currencies. Existing laws and regulations in every country are all targeted to prevent exactly this from happening.

Each time Governments fudge up an economy; or topslices a county's wealth; each time they impose themselves on their populations, they only encourage people to look to alternatives.

Each time Governments try to fight cryptocurrencies, they help to encourage people to think about what money is relative to wealth.

The worse-best action Governments could take, is buying up Bitcoins with a mind to scare the market later but that would only make their position worse. Those who did sell their coins would very likely only then come back later and buy more coins, having taken some profit from that investment. Probably those Governments that are limited by legal frameworks, might not be able to waste taxpayers money buying into the market they don't like. Perhaps then in frustration - or in inspiration, they might create their own cryptocurrencies and compete.

The Governments have themselves in a quicksand of their own making - having shat on us for so long they are lacking a sound foundation; their lack of imaginative ways out, is only matched by creative solutions from alternatives like Bitcoin.

Some problems are too big for Governments to solve and the crises we face will likely only be resolved by society widely; it seems rather less likely the crises will ever be solved by that which caused them in the first place.

Big Government; Big Fail.


btw - I thought btc-e was Bulgarian ~ bulgarian trading exchange.

If government wanted to hurt Bitcoin, they could create some shadow organization that claims to be open-source virtual currency but is really just a shell for consuming bitcoins and undermining the faith in the system.

Hmmm, sounds a lot like Ripple. . .

Ripple sounds like a wet fart.. I don't think anyone is fooled.

Ripple is a brilliant technical achievement as a p2p exchange, but has 2 big problems. One of them is the proprietary private currency XRP that is required to transact on the ripple network. The second one is the ripple gateway, which is unavoidable in every p2p concept, but has to effectively get banking license if respective gateway wants to operate legally.

Well I've yet to see anyone describe Ripple as more than half an idea, based on the theory that *if* everyone held XRP, *then* it would be useful. It seems to be a suggestion of communication and information exchange through water that you don't have.

Also that's offtopic from the more interesting OP about Government's interaction with Bitcoin. Ripple as a topic seems to leak into too many threads.. that's it's other problem is too much empty hype. If something works, it doesn't need hype - it grows by word of mouth. Bitcoin works; it will succeed, whether Government helps or not.

Governments are the main reason that Bitcoin will become highly successful.

In order to kill Bitcoin governments only need to do one thing however: Make it possible for a money services business to register in one jurisdiction (say one state of the United States) and then by agreement between all the regulators worldwide make that one money services business registration valid worldwide.

My personal expereince is that I have only deposided fiat cash into one Bitcoin exchange namely Virtex.  Virtex requires that one be both a Canadian citizen and resident in Canada to do business there.  Now when when it comes to purchasing goods and services with Bitcoin it has always been with businesses that are not based or resident in Canada or with individulas that are not Canadian citizens or residents.

Government is/will require detailed transaction info from exchanges.  Despite that, some users will prefer to trade with them.  That can still work.

For others, consider conducting Bitcoin transactions using incremental P2P, including face-to-face transactions.  Make government(s) less relevant.

Tips for local transactions
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137272.0;all

They will only succeed in exacerbating the problem they attempt to eradicate.

Bitcoin was brought about by world banks acting irresponsibly. If they had not bailed out everybody and their cousin to the tune of billions upon billions of fiat taxpayer money, it's likely something like Bitcoin would not appear for years.

Good job, you greedy bastards.

If the exchanges followed all of the laws and regulations, then there wouldn't have been an issue in the first place.  

This is what happens when people believe that they are above the law.

That is rather the line that the bully would take. Do what I say not as I do.

If the Banks and Governments would only do what is in the interests of the People, then there wouldn't be an issue.

What we see is a consequence of those in Government thinking they are above the law and that they can act without consequence.

Run for your life from any man who tells you that Bitcoin is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another – their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun.

The government is "the people" (or at least it is in the US). 


How is creating laws and regulations to prevent criminals and terrorists from laundering money acting "above the law" or "without consequence"? 

No.

No? The government isn't made up of US citizens who are elected by other US citizens to represent and serve them? 

Thats news to me.

No. The government is made up of US citizens who are elected by other US citizens to suposedly represent them, but actually serve Goldman Sachs.

Those citizens who are unsatisfied with how they are being represented should vote for people who represent their interests better or run for office themselves.

Our government is, as Lincoln stated, "of the people, by the people and for the people".

How is creating laws possible? Laws are not being created, laws are being discovered. Laws are fundamental truths about the reality, e.g.:
- Archimedes' principle (a law) was discovered by Archimedes. This law states a certain fundamental truth, namely any floating object displaces its own weight of fluid.
- Law of universal gravitation by Newton,
- many more

For a concept to qualify to be called a law, this concept needs to be universally true. Let me give you an example: any object drowned in a bathtube displaces the amount of fluid equal to its weight:
(the below will give you some sense of being universal)
- whether in year 1900 or whether in year 2090
- whether on Earth or on Mars or on Jupiter
- whether you like it or not
- whether you consider it legal or not
- whether it will cause someone's death or will save a life

Let's see a statist's examples of law:
- one year law says smoking pot is okay, the next law gets you in jail for smoking pot - you see the so called ''law'' is not universal in time, therefore it is not a law - it is legal pseudo-science
- in one place of the Earth law says possessing gold is okay, in other place of the Earth having gold gets you in jail - you see the so called ''law'' is not universal in space, therefore it is not a law - it is legal pseudo-science
- etc

The so called ''laws'' are bullshits named / sold to you as ''laws'' so that you perceive them as scientific and true, and do not protest when put in jail for non-crimes.

Trust me, no-one ''creates laws''. There are only people who write bullshit on pieces of paper, call it laws and then extract every penny out of you, if you fail to comply with the bullshit written on these pieces of paper.

Be a dear and give me a definition of a citizen.

Should. But they do not.

They vote for the guy they think can win during the primaries then vote for the lesser of two evils in the general election.

(A scarier thought is that the people elected are actually what people want)


Well, now you know. And knowing is half the battle.

Exactly. They're digital, and can be created at whim! (i.e. whatever these particular subjects prefer)
That makes it even less real or trustworthy than Bitcoin, which is also digital but created according to fixed, predetermined mathematical rules that nobody can temper with.

Sure they will, but it's a lost cause :) (and doesn't change the fact that euros and dollars are indeed digital, just as much as Bitcoin)

Theoretically, you can't legally do p2p file sharing either, due to copyright laws and what not. Yet it happens all the time.

Read also this topic (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=212490.0) about the new kind of p2p exchange that will soon become reality. Laws and regulations won't help. No government can intervene against this, because (as opposed to the existing Bitcoin exchanges or intermediate services like Dwolla) there is simply no particular person, company, website, server, or other entity that "they" can seize to take this exchange system down.

A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51 percent of the people may take away the rights of the other 49.

You are confusing scientific law with civil and criminal law.  

I think you are. You seem to think that creating laws against Bitcoin is going to have any more effect than creating laws against gravity or Archimedes' principle.

It's going to happen, whether they (=some government or whoever) like it or not.

That's not how the us government works.

The president isn't chosen by popular vote, and presidents have lost the popular vote and still won the election. Representatives and senators are voted in by localities and represent the interests of the individual states they serve (not 51% of the country).
 
51% of the votes in this country gets you nothing.

The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.

No, you are confusing science (laws) with pseudocience (jurisprudence, including non-valid concepts like civil and criminal ''laws'').

My real question about governments is:

1) With Bitcoins is really easy to launder money and do not declare your earnings. That means less money payed to taxes.
2) Even though everyone complains about taxes, the majority agrees, because they want public streets, schools, healthcare...
3) What if the state forces to remove Bitcoin because if people keep doing it they will need to increment taxes.
4) Taxes increment -> More people have nondeclared money. Go to 1).

How is that not a problem? In most "standard" (let me call it like that) countries, not only USA, is going to be a problem if it ends up being very popular.

Solutions? I don't know.

No one created "laws against Bitcoin". Exchanges failed to comply with existing anti-money laundering laws and regulations.

How exactly is civil and criminal law a "non-valid" concept? 

Most civil and criminal laws are not valid concepts.

They are mainly the initiation of force against people who have not themselves initiated force.

Laws are made, but they cannot be followed if the individuals choose not to believe in them.

Was segregation right? was it moral? It was a law once.

no government no matter how corrupt can truly rule without the consent of the people. Individuals may get elected into office and make ludicrous proclamations but if the people do not choose to follow those proclamations then they are invalid; The people will find a way around them, regardless of the consequences, these are individuals who have made it their motto to live with freedom without security.

In an ideal society there would be no prisons, because people accept the law on a logical and mutually beneficial basis, whenever force is needed to convince the population to concede then you are no longer living in a democracy you are living in a dictatorship free of logic, free of education, free of choice; You have no say in what is truly best for you, your choice is being delegated to someone else to make it for you.

That's a problem of the people, not a problem of the system.  The government doesn't force people to vote that way, the people choose to vote that way themselves.

The only vote you have is what you do with your time, or more specifically, how you act in every waking second.  Everything else is an illusion. 

Here is diagnosis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGIgOIFdnMQ&list=PL8BAD2CAEDA93AAD8 watch the whole series
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A

Here is the solution (download audiobooks and listen when you have time):
http://www.freedomainradio.com/FreeBooks.aspx
recommended: How (not) to achieve freedom, Practical anarchy, everyday anarchy

Exactly. When the people decided that segregation (Jim Crow laws), slavery, etc was no longer morally acceptable, the laws were removed.

The people of this country make the laws and have equal power to dismantle them.  Our laws represent the will of the people.

LOL, okay there, "SEC agent". Hahahaha.

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Therefore, Bitcoin was created.

Well the system perpetuates it. Politicians take money so they can spread their message in a favorable way. You cannot blame politicians for taking money, the system allows it so the output will trend toward them chasing the money. You cannot blame the citizens who try to get as much out of the system because the system allows it and the output will trend toward them chasing the money and voting for politicians that will reward them. You cannot blame the lobbyists since they are rewarded for supplying money to the politicians who will use the power of the government to favor them. The system allows it.

The one step in there that can be blamed is the use of force against people to gain money and power (at the point of the gun under threat of being kidnapped and held prisoner). That is the problem with the system.

Because civil and criminal ''laws'' are not laws; just a few examples of contradictions:
- ''criminal law'' says it is illegal (i.e. morally wrong) to initiate force against anybody to steal, yet it creates exception: when you do not pay the protection fee, i.e. ''taxes'', the so called criminal law ''allows'' to steal property from you to pay it against your will; can you imagine a gravity law that says ''every object dropped from a 10th story falls into the ground with an exception of a child (because child might get hurt)
- ''criminal law'' says it is immoral to beat the shit out of other people unless attacked, yet ''allows'' the police (guys in blue costumes with sign ''police'' on their huts) to beat the shit out of you if you do not appear in court on time; can you imagine Archimedes law that says ''any object drowned in a bathtube displaces the amount of fluid equal to its weight, except for guys in blue costumes who will displace 1/3 of their weight''?

That makes no sense. At all.

Ignoring the fact that you apparently think taxes are stealing (even though you are provided with education, fire dept, police and military protection, roads, social safety net, etc, etc with those taxes) and the fact that you believe that police can legally beat you for no other reason than a failure to appear in court; the fact that a rule/regulation/law may be specific enough to provide exceptions to said rule, doesn't mean that the rule is invalid.

Besides that, as I stated before, laws represent the collective will of the people. When laws like the Jim Crow laws are no longer considered acceptable by the general public, they are removed.

Using CaVirtex (Canada) as always been fast and easy !  Almost no delay, great customer service, good pricing.. I still very happy to use CaVirtex !

The act is still theft, what is done with the loot afterwards does not change the act.

No, because the citizens of this country elect officials who support taxation to represent them, and in some local/state governments vote on taxes directly.  

The power is always in the peoples hands.

Just because some people vote for theft does not make it any less theft.

Look at the actions of elected officials.

They create a separate retirement system for themselves.
They exempt themselves from our socialized medical system.
They have armed guards.

The power is always in the peoples hands?

I am provided these ''services'' at the barrel of a gun. I am forced to pay (taxes) for them even if I nether need them nor want them. If I do not pay for these fantastic ''services'', I get a letter from IRS, if I ignore the letter, a get another one from a court. If I ignore this one, guys dressed in blue costumes will appear at my door. If I do not want to speak to them, they will break into my house. If I resist, they will beat the shit out of me and break my legs. Then I will be sent to jail. If I believed your BS to be free and want to go home, a prison guard will shot me dead.

Do you think it is moral to provide a service at the barrel of a gun?


What you stated is irrelevant. I do not think your stating anything makes it true by the virtue of it being you who states anything. Laws do not represent the collective will of the people. Laws represent the observable and empirically (and to certain extend rationally) confirmed reality.

Your ''law'' is a misnomer. Collective will of the people has no power to stop a rock from falling down the hill, collective will of the people cannot make ''2+2=-5''. Finally, collective will of people has no power to magically make theft moral.

Why are people still talking to the troll?

agreed, CaVirtex so far has been stringent with following the regulations, not likely to be shut down anytime soon, banks in Canada can't shut them down because they are openly complying with the regulations.

Yes. Because you have equal ability to participate in the government, and should you choose not to run yourself, you have the power to vote the politicians who support those things in and out of office.

I used to read a lot. Did you know that in ancient Rome there were people called masters and slaves (the division was more complex - I want to keep it simple). A human called ''master'' could by virtue of ''law'' own another human called ''slave''.

Slaves were given certain rights, e.g. they could retain 10% of their income (90% must have been paid to the master). The master took care of his slaves. He provided services in exchange for 90%. He provided the slaves with:
- schools (if you were the master would you allow the slave to go to the school in which he might be taught how bad slavery is?)
- security
- medical care
- what not.

The slaves at that time could not choose their master. At their birth slaves became the property of a given master.

And you know what? In part of Europe I live in, cumulative taxes (income tax, VAT, luxury tax, social tax and others) account for about 83%.

Do you know what a factual difference between a slave in ancient Rome and a citizen is? A slave could not vote who his master would be. A citizen is given the right to change his master every 2 / 4 / 6 years (depending were you live in.

Citizen = slave. Citizenship = slavery. only the word to describe the facts is more sophisticated

Why do you call yourself a citizen. Are you a masochist?



Hahahahaha. Do they have the power to choose not to have a master / state?

I will agree to the fact that better systems can be built and everyone of us discussing this now is giving ideas to a fully formed system sooner or later to be created by us or others.

I love Democracy, but I think Direct Democracy would be better; Each and every one of us involved and having a say on the issues that are dear to our hearts.

that is Bitcoin for all of us, the Democratization of Money Directly to the people by the people.

by the way, have any of you checked out your local government site? nasa maybe, Cern? the information is open and government is actively trying to get closer to the people, we simply have to give them a chance, and yes you will get screwed sometimes, sometimes. I know from personal experience, but that just highlights the fact that I am not that good at law, or have enough money to hold out against them, but I can still read their transcripts through freedom of information on how they're going to give it to me: that is our current state of Democracy.

the governments will concede to us when we can see everything they do, it should be a law that all conversations by government employees be monitored and surveyed at all time and be open for the public to read online whenever they so damn please, but that is not happening any time soon
they are still human beings who value their privacy.

Everyone is thinking about the move, but what do we know of other governments? Somalia has no say on Bitcoin, neither does Mexico, Canada is embracing it as long as you pay your taxes and declare income from venture capital.

Many different Democracies with different ideals, you could say that they are all forks of the original idea of Democracy created in the Greek City States 5000 years ago, we sure have come a long way.

Again, if you don't like taxes, then you can run for office and try to get taxation repealed (which would be asinine, but it is your choice). You can even start your own political party that runs on an anti taxation platform. Failing that, you can vote for politicians and judges that support your political view.

Stop pretending you are being oppressed. We have a government that allows you to participate as much or as little as you want. If you fail to act on your own political goals, then that is your fault, not the government's.

This is actually true, here in Canada at birth I am a stewart of the state until I am 18 years old, I am under the care of her Majesty.

Same in the U.S. just that you don't have a Monarchy you belong to the state.

I could declare myself a non-citizen if I wanted but then all the rights and priviliges that government gives me would be out of my reach. I could smoke pot in public because I am a non-citizen a people of the land.  There is a law that the Natives here in Canada can proclaim that if they are born in Canada they are free of the laws and benefits of the aboriginal treaties, they are truly free and cannot be judged by a Canadian Court for being original inhabitants of the land.

You mean, you suggest that I join the mafia to change the mafia into something good and virtuous? What have you smoked today?

Oh I see. You don't actually want anything to change, you just want to whine about how "oppressed" you are and pretend that there is nothing you can do about it (like a spoiled teenager).

Can anyone show facts and evidence linking you to Elizabeth Alexandra Mary - I guess this granny is referred as to majesty. For millenia and centuries people calling themselves kings and queens were able to deceive others that power to govern other people comes from god, and that they (kings and queens) represent the so called god on Earth. This trick is still working in Canada.


The american revolution destroyed the myth of power to govern comes from god, and was replaced with another myth of power to govern coming from the so called nation, elections, and what not.


Here is something for you: go to call of shame and video first to get a taste of more lengthy materials
http://marcstevens.net/
 
You do not need to declare yourself  a non-citizen to smoke pot.

What have you smoked today?

If only Tosche Station accepted BTC in exchange for power converters... *ducks*

We didn't get to vote on the creation of the Federal Reserve, the same year income tax was imprelented. And you can't seriously say with a straight face the our government properly represents us.

If I do not like theft I should ask the thieves to let me be one of them so that I can tell them to stop stealing?

Slavery was common in the US until 1886. It was accepted, and common.

According to you, the slaves should have just run for office and changed the law.

Or, people would eventually realize that slavery was bad and outlaw it.

That is all well and good for history, but if you are a slave you are stuck waiting for the uninformed masses to start acting morally.

So what do you do? You escape, you find the underground railroad, you do whatever you can do to be free in a society that thinks you should be a slave.


Bitcoin is our underground railroad. Those that still believe in slavery are working to shut it down. Under the guise of "creating laws and regulations to prevent criminals and terrorists from laundering money".

The whole point of Bitcoin is change. Change you can certainly believe in this time around.

Anyone working toward its free, unadultered, use is working to free humanity from such oppression.

There is no political solution...

Spirits in the Material World - The Police
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k8ZW8wr68k

2% yearly inflation (seigneuriage)  is considered normal. Inflation is a tax (It lowers your purchasing power and devalues your savings).
Inflation is created by a central bank printing a little bit more money than it should.
This excessive money should be used for public streets, schools, healthcare but apparently it is not.
So where is this money going?
Hint: Banks are getting larger, The gap between the wealthy and the poor is getting larger.

It was never stealing in the first place.



Yes, which is why it was legal, it had the support of the general population.


No the law got changed exactly the way I have been talking about; through political action of the citizens. People ran for office and/or voted people into office that supported their views. 


That's generally how a society works.




The rest of what you wrote is appalling. Comparing yourself as a modern american (whom Id be willing to bet is white, male, and around 25-40 years old) to a slave in any way is disgusting, and a disservice to the poor people that had to suffer those atrocities.

More people need to start giving coins away then :)

It is possible to exchange value backed by crypto-currencies but denominated in fiat at full face value + interest.  
The *key* is to back the fiat-iou with crypto-currency collateral.   If someone 'defaults' on the fiat-iou they end up losing 2x that value to the network.

I posted this idea in one of the child boards but it hasn't gotten enough visibility.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=213588.msg2238954#msg2238954

A quick summary is this:

1) all balances (fiat or otherwise) pay interest
2) all fiat balances are created by someone borrowing against a crypto-currency used as collateral.  
3) payments from the collateral are distributed to those who hold a balance in that fiat currency.
4) people borrow against their crypto-currency because they expect it to go up in value relative to fiat AND the crypto-currency also pays dividends from transaction fees.
5) once you have a fiat balance it can be traded as easily as a bitcoin balance.
6) fiat balances are always 100% redeemable at face value (excluding transaction fees) so long as the underlying crypto-currency maintains any amount of value.
7) the effective interest rate on fiat balances goes UP when the value of the crypto currency goes up.

Given my approach we can now eliminate the centralized exchange.  Allow individuals acting as 'local-bitcoin operators' or posting on craigslist to 'deposit' and 'withdraw' $USD or EUR from other individuals without having exchange risk but only a potential 'transaction fee'.    There would be more people wanting to deposit $USD because their $USD balances pay interest and with more people wanting to deposit that means more people wanting to withdraw which equals more opportunities for local exchanges.   People could use the system without ever owning an asset denominated in a crypto-currency to trade $USD among themselves, etc.

The problem with fiat isn't the fiat, but the laws.  The way you fix laws is to make breaking them so easy and hard to find and desirable to so many people that they effectively nullify the law.   Copyright is effectively nullified by mass law-breaking and that is enabled by the internet.  Sure some people get caught, but most do not.  There are so many people doing it because it is 'profitable' to them that attempts to shut it down will be fruitless.

I believe in Change! I believe in getting my satoshis back!

we will only live in a truly free society when the implements of our lives are not run by Bourgeoisie capitalist pigs, but by proletariat capitalist pigs!

The implement is software truly free software, open and indiscriminate of ones social leaning, ones nationality or race. Software whose very openness takes a strike at Tyranny by the few, due to it's very nature. Software you are free to use to implement the change you wish to follow in the world, let there be people to create the change and let us choose to follow them if we very well so choose!

We may not all choose as one but we may find the many across continents and nations that choose as we choose, we have a right to know our brothers and sisters of equal ideological leanings.

I vote with my bitcoins for a better tomorrow a tomorrow with p2p shuttle services, that are free of central control; of exchanges where people with a over abundance meet those who are in need not just of cash, but of food! and dignity! A world where software is written openly with truths that are self-evident and free to be followed or rejected by the individual who so chooses to receive those services by an entity that is truly... by the people for the people.

When someone takes money away from someone else without their consent, that is stealing.


Slavery and the initiation of force against humans is disgusting.

People will look back at our current time in history with the same disgust.

Relying on theft for your goods and services because it is accepted is just plain lazy and immoral. Anyone who gave it just a bit of thought could figure out that it is not the only way.

-Quoted for Awesomeness.

Elwar will you be my valentine?

...You gotta stop feeding the troll first tho... This one is waaaaaaaaaaay too far gone.  Look at his avatar!

That was an awesome post.

sick avatar! I thought it was real lol

Yeah, you have it real bad in  the US because you actually have pay for the services you use on a daily basis.   Its not bad enough for you to take political action or leave apparently, just bad enough to act like a pariah and compare yourself to a slave.

I'd love to see you live under an actual oppressive regime, I doubt you'd last a week in a place North Korea. You live in the richest and most powerful country in the world, are likely of a privlidged class (white, male, and/or middle class or above), and have enough disposable income to throw some away on Internet play money.....and you are complaining about being oppressed?

Give me a break.

I am just stating a fact. Theft is theft. It is understandable if you are ok with stealing to pay for "society", you are in good company with most Americans.

Political action? You mean like when I ran for Congress or was a state delegate in Texas?

Leave? Done. It is 8:30AM right now where I live (time to go get some breakfast).


And how do oppressive regimes oppress? Through the initiation of force. Same offense, different scale. If you lived in North Korea you would be raving about all of the wonderful things that great leader gives his citizens while ignoring the theft.

Not if the volume of transactions are thieves and other non-tax-paying launders...

They are increasing value, instead of letting THOSE guys RAPE our dollars, giving US bitcoins that would later be DEVALUED.

Funny, the more regulation I see, the more value I see in bitcoins. Knowing that thieves can't just dump-out $100,000 in one lump sum, which reduces value by nearly half to us... is a good thing that the charts reflect.

Good news is, the thieves are slowly leaving. Thus, the volume is decreased, adding value to those honestly trying to earn MONEY from bitcoins, or honestly trying to BUY bitcoins for use. (And for those of us who mine also.)

If YOUR exchange refuses to "follow laws"... You might not want to be dealing with them. That is why THEY pulled support for LEGAL exchanges. Why would any legal exchange want to accept illegal operating transactions. They might as well be taking counterfeits and running pawn-shops themselves.

If enough HONEST people WANT that exchange... then it will come back. There are more honest users here now, and without that market, there is only trading among thieves and goons.

OMG they want people extracting more than $10,000 to declare a statement saying this was "earnings" or "a transfer of owned funds". Kill the connection! Kill the connection!

You are confusing honesty with legality.

I like the avatar I created for my alt account. It makes it more convincing right? I mean, if I did not set myself up so easily I would not be able to post such fun posts.

If you don't like paying for the "society" you live in and benefit from, thats OK too. It just makes you a freeloading societal leech, much like a welfare queen or career criminal.  

If/When you don't pay all of your taxes, you are stealing from the rest of us who do. You can try to justify it all you want, but the truth is YOU are the thief, not the government.

This guy gets it.

Could we not just sack the SEC and save on taxes?

Today's lesson is that there are far too many Asperger types interested in Bitcoin and Rand!

Tax could be considered theft, if you were not already aware of the deal for employment in your country.

If you are not willing to pay a percentage of your income in tax, you are not allowed to work.  That rule applies before you accepted the deal to work for an income. In an ideal Rand world, you would have read all the terms and conditions before you took on the contract - wouldn't you? ;)

If you don't work, you don't get an income, and might consider government charity - also known as welfare benefits.  If you are not willing to accept the rules of the country, you don't get those either!

The down side of some ideologies is that they don't work in the real world.  This seems to be true for all the isms like communism, socialism, Marxism etc, but also for Libertarianism and Capitalism.

The only system that actually works is corporatism - and that one is awful!

While bitcoin could make things better, it needs to get through the isms that wants it dead - and that is quite a task!

Jumping to stereotypes.. seems rather apt considering the lack of imagination coming from traditional economics atm.

In the long run, governments are handicapping their own currencies by making them incapable of buying Bitcoins. In the short term however, this really is a problem. I wrote an article about this a week or so ago. Kind of extreme, but it's really just food for thought. If you're interested...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=207764.0;all

That was really the lesson? I just learned that my ignore list is one name too short.

This is a fairly standard style of sophism that I like to call the "hypocritical parent" technique. Notable characteristics of this fallacy include rampant begging of the question, unilaterally imposed demands referred to as a "deal", faux fairness, and a complete avoidance of the question of why it's justified for the the people imposing the demands to do so, but it's not justified for the people ordered around to impose demands on the rulers. Many people have the misfortune of being the target of this kind of treatment at a young age. Sadly as most of them grow up they mentally convert this experience into, "this is how society should be organized!" and very few of them manage to achieve the enlightenment of, "actually my parents were just hypocritical assholes and I shouldn't seek to replicate that now that I'm an adult."

Merely living does not imply consent to be robbed.

Please do take away all government services, including the SEC, DEA, CIA, IRS, DHS, FBI, FDA, EPA, NSA, TSA, DOT, CPS, Foreign Aid, bank bailouts, automobile bailouts, welfare, warfare, and everything else.

Are you saying that anyone who does not pay taxes and still uses government services is a thief?

Just spending bitcoins incurs a tax when the value goes up compared to the dollar, no employment required.

And just because a government has its rules of theft if you perform your daily activities does not mean that you consent to the theft by performing your daily activities. We are born with inherent rights to life and liberty.

Where and when and in what circumstances was this deal you are talking about concluded? Can you offer us some facts on who made this deal?

What deal? I'm not aware of being part of any such deal, and I sure as hell didn't agree upon one.

I don't know what my country's employment has to do with this. I'm currently getting paid bitcoins for developing some software for someone else (who, as far as I know, doesn't even live on the same continent as me) and that's the only deal I'm involved in. I give code to him, he gives bitcoins to me. And now you're claiming it's not theft when some 3rd party would suddenly come knocking at my door and took part of my bitcoins by force?

I have sent 3 wires into Bitstamp from BoA and they all were credited in less than 24 hours. A bit costly for smaller amounts as BoA has a $45 international wire fee and Bitstamp a $15 fee but convenient and pain free otherwise.

I care, I WELCOME regulation.  It improves our ability to operate in a safe and legal manor.  It reduces corruption and the whole point is that no legitimate government, like ours, wants to allow a quasi-currency to fund terrorism.  Nor do I.



 

What kind of regulation do you welcome:
a) the voluntarily one agreed on and enforced between consenting individuals, or
b) agreed by a small number of people and coercively forced onto non-consenting individuals at a gun point?

Sorry dude, I am an American.  People don't tell me what to do at gunpoint because I am not a criminal.  And don't waste your time telling me some cock-a-mamy scheme that if I don't pay taxes men with guns will show up at my door.

No problem, that's not your fault.

Not as long as you comply to their rules, and pay whatever taxes they tell you to pay.

Stop paying your taxes, and by definition you become a criminal and will be treated as such.

Regardless of the whole tax thing, you Americans seem to think that the USA is the "land of the free" but it's actually one of the most restricted NON-free countries in the world.

Try it. Stop paying your taxes, and eventually, they will.

No they won't.  It's easy to think the US government is some evil group who shoots at non-tax payers but there is no evidence to support that.  

All the government does when you don't pay taxes is seize your assets.  They do not shoot at you or take you to jail or point guns near you because we are a civilized people who do not jail paupers.  You are spreading FUD.

Tell that to Ed and Elaine Brown who tried to live peacefully and free but because they did not pay taxes were survailed by SWAT teams and police for weeks for not paying taxes and then finally attacked. And when they chose to defend themselves (as a free person will do when attacked) they had more charges thrown against them and are now in jail for life.

Or Irwin Schiff who had all of his property seized and was taken away to jail after being in front of a judge who said "I will not allow evidence in my court room".

They take you to jail.

Do not ever claim that America is the land of the free as long as people cannot live free without being kidnapped and held prisoner.

Trust me, I am sorry too. All your regulation is supposed to be derived / based on the so called US constitution, i.e. a piece of paper with ink on it from year 1787 or something.

Trust me, there is no evidence to prove the US constitution or any other US laws apply to you. Just like there is no evidence that bible from 2000 years ago and church laws or regulations apply to you or anybody else.

If you can prove this with the evidence US constitution, laws and regulations apply to you, I will pay you BTC 100.

If you believe you easily earned BTC 100 from me watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngpsJKQR_ZE&list=UUFeK8ZdHbCqAq3gekWs8aEQ&index=38


All I want is to pay you BTC 100 if you can prove US constitution and other laws or regulation by the so called US government apply to you or anybody else othe than the so called US government.

Please don't do that again. My keyboard's warranty doesn't cover vomit damage.

Seize? You meant steal, using force if you happen to defend your property. Try to resist their seizure / stealing of your car and they will shoot you dead. If you somehow survive, you get in prison. If you want to leave the prison to have a beer with friends, the prison guard will shoot you dead.

But wait, why would you want to resist; they have all the guns in the world, they have tanks and combat airplanes. Why would you resist them? They are such nice people  ;D

+1. They have the highest incarceration rate in the world yet this guy claims they are civilized. He lost touch with reality.

The drug war does more to fund terrorism than anything Bitcoin could ever do. Only 20% of Afghanistan men can read. Do you really think they are using Bitcoin? I live among them, they do not even know how to use a toilet properly let alone a crypto currency. Whoever is telling you that all of these restrictions they are putting on Americans' freedoms is to help stop terrorists is blowing a lot of smoke up your ass.

Were those the same civilized people that genocided away roughly 100 million savages?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X78CYn_F6b8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X78CYn_F6b8)

Referring to the indigenous American populations, in case anyone didn't get that...

100 million is highly disputable. There were not statistics at that time. Region of 15 million is more realistic. But still very high.

Disputable yes, but not unfounded.

they are not in jail for taxes.. they are in jail because they have dark skin.

it can be done by using multisignature transactions to create a risk fund which makes it in the interest of both parties not to cheat. With this you can do blind trades with people on the internet that you know nothing about and have every expectation that they will actually send you the cash in the mail that they have promised to send.

like the government I am far more concerned about iran than Afghanistan.

Please correct me if I am wrong but Iran (Persians) did not attack any other country in the last 300 years. Why are you afraid of them?

you deny the fact that if you fail to pay taxes men with guns will show up at your door with every intention of kidnapping you and that if you resist their attempts to kidnap you that you will be shot?

thats sort of amazing. what DO you think would happen if you decided never to pay another tax? do you think the government would just say "ah well you win some you lose some" and then leave you in peace for the rest of your life? you really truely honestly believe this is what would happen? I think you must be trolling, no one is that stupid.

And that makes you civilized, right?

I don't jail people, I am not a judge.

+1

It's of constant amazement to me how few people seem to realise or acknowledge this.

Your concern is a paranoid delusion, unlike the government's which is based on strategies for geopolitical dominance.

you should be more careful with your words.  you are implying a fear that does not exist.  I said concerned not afraid.  if you are not concerned about Iran you don't understand how they censor the media and try to keep their people in the dark like the Chinese used to do.

In next week's episode Viceroy will try to claim that the U.S. government doesn't censor the media.

I love the cowards afraid of intelligent discussion who just immediately hit the ignore button on my posts...

the op implies the US government is hindering bitcoin somehow.  the same government who is the richest country in the world with GDP 10 times larger than most any other.  the same government who makes banking rules that match the Europeans and Asians and the same country who, despite regulation, is the richest on the planet.

I guess regulation is not a problem, unlike the ops supposition.

It is a fact fear does not exist. For something to exist it must have energy (like photon) or / and mass (like bicycle).

''Fear'' has neither of the two, just like unicorn. Unicorns have neither energy nor mass - therefore unicorns do not exists. Therefore ''fear'' does not exist.


Are you willing to drop bombs on Persians to protect them from censorship of media then?

I don't make such decisions.  I am not the congress.

LOL  ;D

But if you had power to decide, would you drop bombs on Persians to protect them from censored media?

fuck no, that's insane.  I would only kill a person who was endangering me or my family.  I would keep up the sanctions though and I'd use black ops to try to create a revolution from within. 

I sense some progress in you. That's very cool.


If I lived in your vicinity and refused to pay taxes, would you consider my refusal a danger to you or your familiy?


How would you finance keeping up sanctions and black ops:
a) from your own pocket, or
b) from pockets of other people (taxes) who might not support the sanctions and black ops?

I would do whatever the majority wanted.

If the majority wanted you to kill me for not paying taxes, then you would kill, right?

Would you feel proud of yourself?

sorry Osama I shoot you in the head.

and I laugh an evil laugh.

Woo hoo!!! USA! USA! USA!

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHzpUdIAVtkhfgz62rkRKyqQSwqvIoNEudfKt1EixEoh14oq9WPA

...said every gang rapist ever.

Maybe you should just pay taxes?  Even in the most libertarian of societies there will be things you have to pay for.

Thoughts and emotions don't exist because they don't have energy or mass? Do you actually believe we are beings without consciousness or sentience?  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie)

If so, your understanding of science is just as poor as your understanding of economics.  

No. Just those who don't pay their entire required share, as laid out by the law.

What's wrong with these statements?

Not a thing.

That's a false argument. Maybe it would be better to say democracy in the US is tyranny of 70% against the 30% (70% of the votes basically guarantees that you'll win in any US election, period).

Keep in mind that even if it was a popular vote with a 51% majority rule, because the participation rate is so ridiculously low (2008 was a highly anomalous 60%, usually it's around 50%), in reality only 26% of the voting eligible population would establish the majority rule...

Out of 464,000 adults in my county 293,000 cast votes last fall.  That's not bad at 67%.  (Marijuana legalization for recreational use passed by 10 votes). 

That's 49% of the population saying that they are basically OK with whoever wins and 51% who care enough to vote.  Which makes sense - the US is not going through any fundamental upheaval so you'd expect most people to be indifferent as to who wins elections.

You are wrong to assume 49% are basically OK... this 49% recognizes there is no REAL CHOICE and could not find anyone WORTH voting for.  End result is that 75% of the public is actively against the man in charge and only 25% voted for him.   Unfortunately, of the 25% that voted for him, half of those people were really voting AGAINST the other guy who they thought was worse.  End result is that only 12% of the population REALLY endorses and supports the policies of the elected official.

Probably in the wrong place. Have you considered OTC?

What world do you live in?  Where I live, every election has loads of local angry candidates fighting on local issues.  OK they lose but that doesn't mean there is no choice.  It means that people did not agree with them!

Just cos you can't win an election does not mean the process is invalid. 

The process is invalid because the winner claims moral authority to execute violence against those who did not consent to the results of the election via contract.   They claim the right to declare 'right and wrong' and to then 'reward' and 'punish' people based on an arbitrary definition of right and wrong with NO REGARD to the fact that the MEANS by which they exercise power (pointing a gun at people) is universally recognized as wrong and immoral for any other individual to do except in immediate self defense.   

In your system of many choices, half are still voting for the lesser of N evils. 

Dude, we don't "execute violence against those who did not consent" except those who are in jail/prison.  This is a modern country.  We ended slavery one hundred fifty years ago.

"(pointing a gun at people)"

Facts or it didn't happen.

So when you lose the result is because there is no REAL CHOICE and then the process is invalid because you think its immoral.

Who made you Ayatollah?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_and_Elaine_Brown

April 2007
 On April 24, U.S. District Judge Steven McAuliffe sentences Ed and Elaine Brown to five years and three months in prison each for concealing earnings and failing to pay federal income tax on nearly $2 million of income. Neither of the Browns appeared in court for the sentencing.

May 2007
 On May 18, Ed and Elaine Brown are reported as stating they do not intend to appeal their convictions on federal tax evasion charges. They said they have abandoned "man's law" and now follow only the rules and laws put forth in the Bible.
 
June 2007
 On June 7, police, SWAT teams, and armored vehicles are seen gathering in a field near the Browns' home. United States Marshal Stephen Monier confirms that one Brown supporter was detained near the Browns' property. Several sources later identify the Browns' supporter as a man named Danny Riley, and state that he was detained while walking the Browns' dog, Zoe. Monier's office later releases a press statement indicating that the government agents were not raiding the Browns' home, but were in the area to serve a warrant for the seizure of Elaine Brown's dental office in West Lebanon, New Hampshire. (Subsequent testimony at trial revealed that this operation was in fact an arrest attempt.) In the evening of June 7, Riley records a video describing his encounter with and detainment by federal agents earlier that day. In the video Riley claims that one camouflaged agent fired two shots over his head after he fled from the agent once happening upon him hiding in the woods near the Browns' property. Riley claims that after being tackled and tasered, he was threatened with 15 years in jail by the FBI unless he told the media that the siege was expected and planned for, and was not the outcome of an abortive attempt to serve a warrant.[

Seems fair enough.  You can't just "opt out" of the stuff you don't like.  If you have fiat money, then you render unto Ceaser what is due to Ceaser.

So some people can not pay taxes and use government services and not be considered thieves and other people can not pay taxes and use government services and be considered thieves?

Are those people forcing the government at the point of a gun to provide those services?

Approximately 50% of Americans 'pay no taxes' and we ALL benefit from services.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/only-53-percent-pay-income-tax.htm

Doesn't matter.  They have to pay.  There is no such thing as a perfect system that makes everyone happy.

Did you miss the word "income" there?  Almost all people pay taxes of some kind. 

Yes I did.

Edit  +income

:)

of course but we would like to have a choice in WHO should be providing those things that we have to pay for. with taxation there is no choice, the government will make that choice for you.

"Democracy" is tyranny of 1% against the 99%, but sadly most of the 99% are sheep and don't see this.

I agree completly

Yes, if we are referring to income tax (which is what most people are referring to when they complain about "taxes"). It would be asinine to expect people who are below the poverty level and live on a fixed government income to pay income tax.

However, these people still pay back into the system through sales taxes, and often (even disproportionally) "sin" taxes such as liquor and tobacco, as well as "stupidity" taxes like the lotto, etc. So no one really gets by tax free.

Did you forget to subtract out the NET benefits people receive vs taxes paid?   Many people receive more benefits than taxes paid via sales tax, gas, etc.   What about the NEGATIVE 'benefits' that people people were forced to pay for that actually worked AGAINST them such as paying for immoral wars, foreign aid, subsidizing their competition?   Regulatory expenses and delays and downright outlawing honest livelihoods?

Also since when does one party get to dictate the price someone else has to pay for the service received whether wanted or not?  If I show up at an intersection, wash your window, then demand $1000 at gun point on the grounds that 'you benefited' by the services I provided despite the fact that I left smears on your previously already clean window?  

So, make your case and if you can't find a politician who agrees with you, stand for election and see if you can get the votes.  I'm sure you will find persuading people to sure that the blind and aged stop getting Medicare an interesting experience.  I doubt you'll get many votes.

The logic here is simple.  Government is something the vast majority of people want.  All human institutions are a mess.  Democracy is a human institution so it too will be a mess.  But no better system has been found so you have to make the best of it.  

This guy gets it.

No better system has been accepted or understood by the masses... saying it hasn't been found is a lie.   I suspect most people dislike the government and don't want it interfering in their life, but most people also are not imaginative enough to consider who life could be possible without the government and therefore assume a government is needed.   Thus lack of imagination causes people to fall back to primitive use of force so they can avoid dealing with a mans reason.  Thus force is easier than reason and is the lazy way.  Someone who relies on force is not confident enough in their own position to persuade via logic.

You want to see a better system.. the-iland.net documents it.

You don't need to "suspect" - you can go door to door at election time and ask. Come election day you will know for a fact whether most people do or do not support your position.

I suspect the problem is that you know the answer, you don't like the answer and are looking for a way to deprive people of the right to vote.

"Deprive" implies force and I would never deny anyone the right to vote; however, I will never grant the outcome of a vote legitimacy.   If we were to vote on who gets to rape your wife, and then you object then by you logic I could claim you were trying to deny us our of our right to vote.

Vote all you want, but don't bind me to it!

Can you possibly use less emotive terms than "rape your wife?"  I'm old and have followed politics all my life and I don't ever recall an election on that subject.  Elections are generally about mundane things who picks up trash, how it gets disposed and how much is paid for it. 

It doesn't really matter if you regard elections as legitimate or not.  People want to have government; they want to have a right to vote on how things are done and you can either comply with their decisions or not.  Complying but saying "Its not legitimate" is fine.

If you consider mundane subjects such as killing millions of people in wars, subsidizing GMO crops, poising water with fluoride, debasing the currency, and raiding people producing fresh milk, legalizing torture to be any different than raping your wife... I would like to know how.  Your wife is one person and she doesn't die... millions are starving or being killed as a result of people voting and 'complying' with the result.

No, I will not comply I will ignore and evade and undermine the result of the vote when ever it is in my interest to do so.

 

Oh the heartfelt emotions! 

Well I also ignore laws that go against my interests.  Everyone does.  That doesn't make you special.

Working on Starting a Bitcoin town here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=216139.0

Huh? Fluoridation of your water supply is handled on a state level (assuming you are based in the USA), so if you disagree with it then feel free to talk to your local politicians for your state. And as said earlier, if you do not like all your politicians, feel free to run for a state position yourself. The only thing blocking you is if the majority of the states population agrees with you or not. There was a town that was mentioned on Arstechnica lately that was able to get rid of fluoridation of their water supply. Also, fluoridation has been proven time and time again to be very effective when in the water supply and done correctly, and in the USA it is done very well. Heck, it is even considered by some to be one of the best medical advancements of this century! Also, if you don't like it, feel free to get a water filter for ten bucks.

Subsidizing GMO crops is not a bad thing. It encourages further research for GMO's crops so the yield increases and therefore food would become cheaper, more accessible, and easier to grow. Though, how Monsanto handles GMO's is quite horrific, so I somewhat partially agree with your there.

Debasing the currency is a long and hard discussion. I don't want to get into that on a forum where this has been talked about over and over again, often times with misinformation on both sides.

Raiding people producing fresh milk, that I have no clue what you are talking about. Selling milk which you produce yourself is very illegal, as it should be without any sort of license.

You should know fully well that equating actions with a users wife getting raped is a very flawed and messed up way to get any argument across. Millions are not dying due to voting and complying with the result, I haven't got a faintest clue how you are getting that. People vote in for someone they wish to represent them, and those people who represent them handle how the government should handle and do things. If you do not like how they are doing things, either impeach them, vote for someone else the next time, get the public to show that they disagree with the recent action, or run yourself for office.

More like the government is being killed by Bitcoin and noone seems to care

Ha, true.

Don't forget the deregulation of the Financial industry which bankers lobbied for starting with the Clinton Administration and through the Bush administration.   When they merged commercial and investment banking, nullifying the Glass-Steagall Act, that is when the subprime mortgages started.  Traditional mortgages used to be  backed by deposits; but the new subprime mortages were backed by leveraged financial instruments (CDOs  - Collateralized Debt Obligations).  Subprime mortages were much more profitable for banks than the traditional mortgages that is why they pushed them.

Then when the shit hit the fan in 2008, the profits were capitalized and the loss was socialized.  Taxpayers paying for the dumb mistakes the bankers made.  And we are still paying for them.   Who are the dumb asses - us or them?   My point is, this is what got us in the trouble in the first place

The worst part is that very little has been done to solve the problem since the crash.  We desperately need to reregulate the financial industry so that this doesn't happen again, but I really dont see that happening, unfortunately.

check it. Is it just me or is this finally an implementable p2p exchange protocol?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=212490.0;all

It would be more correctly described as P2P price/trade discovery messaging mechanism married to a decentralised clearing/settlement system ... but basically, yes.

I'm still researching the nitty gritty details, but this seems like it could be what we've been waiting/looking for. Currently reading up on SEPA.

good, when your done reading dumb it down for the rest of us.

.... shall I link to a dictionary for words of more than 2-3 syllables or you can take it from here?

I was looking for details not repetition.

a detailed dumbed down summary?

did I say summary?

How can anyone say we have the ability to vote anyone out when a candidate can get 112% of the votes in a precint and no one goes to jail. Or when these politicians we suposidly elected fight every attempt to have everyone prove they are who they say they are, before voting.

I just wanted to point out that government crackdowns will only drive adoption.

The crackdown on Napster resulted in?  Bittorrent.

The crackdown on e-gold resulted in? Bitcoin, Voucher-Safe, Open-Transactions...

"The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

usually when I discover that something is prohibited by a government I think "wow I will use/buy/sell!"

Meanwhile in America, the cliques of CNN FOX watchers are voting DEM REP based on how on the dole or wealthy they are; states rights have been crapped on as a matter of principle since Lincoln, despite weed being less freaky than flouride; prewritten letters are the greatest possible reward for saying anything to a politician; elections are only for rich lawyers and politicians, and rape is almost completely practically legal and widely ecouraged- and very much tax funded according to millitary rape stats.