Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin => Bitcoin Discussion => Topic started by: hachacha on December 07, 2010, 04:50:47 PM



Title: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: hachacha on December 07, 2010, 04:50:47 PM
Anyone have any ideas for raising money for wikileaks? Some governments have frozens Julian Assange's bank accounts, paypal, and credit cards. I think Bitcoin would be a great way for them to get donations. Anyone think its a good idea? I would like to start accepting donations for wikileaks but I don't know who to contact at wikileaks about getting them to accept bitcoin donations.


Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: Timo Y on December 07, 2010, 05:02:28 PM
Satoshi is against it because Bitcoin is still in germinal stage.

Too much bad press too early could destroy the project.

Not that there a lack of solidarity towards Wikileaks in the Bitcoin community, but we need to help ourselves first before we can help others, or at least that's the idea.

Of course Satoshi's word should not be taken as gospel, but majority of the community seems to agree with him/her right now.


Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: genjix on December 07, 2010, 05:18:16 PM
Don't do this as it would fix a bullseye on the Bitcoin community. We'd be under intense heat and pressure.

We need to quietly build our infrastructure and expand. Sure a government can't shut down the network itself, but they can close exchanges and that would devalue Bitcoins into nothing. There's lots of ways to attack the Bitcoin currency without touching the tech.


Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: FatherMcGruder on December 07, 2010, 06:00:07 PM
Anyone have any ideas for raising money for wikileaks? Some governments have frozens Julian Assange's bank accounts, paypal, and credit cards. I think Bitcoin would be a great way for them to get donations. Anyone think its a good idea? I would like to start accepting donations for wikileaks but I don't know who to contact at wikileaks about getting them to accept bitcoin donations.
Nothing is stopping Wikileaks from using bitcoin. This community doesn't have to do anything about it. Let's just carry on.


Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: wumpus on December 07, 2010, 06:03:02 PM
Wikileaks admins are aware of bitcoin, but according to them it's still in its infant stages (true) and "too difficult to get dollars out again".

Let's just wait, bitcoin will be good for the wikileaks of the future :)


Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: davout on December 07, 2010, 06:11:06 PM
I disagree, deeply.

Wikileaks get lots of sympathy from lots of different people, mostly people who care about freedom of speech and freedom of information.
As for exchanges, closing one will bring ten other exchanges to life and stimulate decentralized exchange innovation.

Satoshi is against it because Bitcoin is still in germinal stage.
Confronting ideas and beta versions to reality is the best way to harden them.
Just as kids grow up by getting experienced falling and getting back up bitcoin should get the most possible attention, if it doesn't get destroyed in the process it'll mean it's rock solid and will greatly benefit from the advertisement.

If it ends up getting destroyed it'll just mean something need to be tweaked in order to make it better before rebirth.

Satoshi is over protective, see for yourself, just check out the thread about including listtransactions in the codebase.

Fear is always a bad counselor, but I guess it's proportional to one's wallet weight. See this as an opportunity, not a threat.

As far as I'm concerned I'll support such initiatives by donating and/or accepting donations for wikileaks.







Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: MoonShadow on December 07, 2010, 07:32:57 PM

Satoshi is over protective,


Indeed.  No offense to Satoshi, but the best way to teach a baby to swim is toss them in the water. 

Of course, you don't toss them in and go to get a beer, either.  And since there are few other developers able to jump in and save the baby if it panics, Satoshi's protective nature holds sway with me anyway.  I know that I couldn't do anything to help.


Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: RHorning on December 07, 2010, 08:05:47 PM
Wikileaks admins are aware of bitcoin, but according to them it's still in its infant stages (true) and "too difficult to get dollars out again".

Let's just wait, bitcoin will be good for the wikileaks of the future :)


I think that by far the largest problem for Bitcoin right now is trying to get the dollars into the system in the first place.  It isn't all that easy.  Getting the dollars out seems like it is a bit easier, but you do need to find somebody willing to make the trade.

Once Bitcoins is a bit more established, there may be more possibilities in terms of people who would take Bitcoins for various services including web hosting and other services that Wikileaks may need.

If somebody accepts LR dollars, however, I see little reason not to accept Bitcoins.


Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: SmokeTooMuch on December 07, 2010, 08:15:08 PM
Satoshi is against it because Bitcoin is still in germinal stage.
Satoshi is not more than a developer.
Especially he's not an authority.

(nothing personal against you, satoshi)


Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: kiba on December 07, 2010, 08:20:24 PM
Look, we don't need to take extreme risk to win. Time is on our side.

Once hyperinflation break out, the government can't do much of anything. By that time, the bitcoin economy would be ready to take on the economic load of the collapse.

We have no idea about the rate of growth and the ability of government to find flaws to attack bitcoin.


Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: Symbiosis on December 07, 2010, 08:43:31 PM
While there is no way to donate to wikileaks right now.  Another option for those who want to help those in the same mindframe for freedom of the press wikileaks would be The Electronic Frontier Foundation.  EFF accepts bitcoin payments.  Information is on their website at https://eff.org. 


Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: davout on December 07, 2010, 10:05:22 PM
Of course, you don't toss them in and go to get a beer, either.  And since there are few other developers able to jump in and save the baby if it panics, Satoshi's protective nature holds sway with me anyway.  I know that I couldn't do anything to help.

I wouldn't be too worried about that.

If somebody accepts LR dollars, however, I see little reason not to accept Bitcoins.

Definitely

Look, we don't need to take extreme risk to win. Time is on our side.

I think you're over estimating the risk of government attack while underestimating the benefits of lots new people getting to know bitcoin and contributing to the strength of the network.

We have no idea about the rate of growth and the ability of government to find flaws to attack bitcoin.

I'd rather find out sooner than later.

Anyway, that's just one of the PR opportunities that we have now, I think the other very promising opportunity is getting a headless bitcoin client included in the debian repos.



Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: kiba on December 07, 2010, 10:11:42 PM
Quote from: davout

I think you're over estimating the risk of government attack while underestimating the benefits of lots new people getting to know bitcoin and contributing to the strength of the network.


Time is on our side. There is no need to test this proposition when we can gradually grows and then catch the government off guard. Than they can't do shit.

Quote
I'd rather find out sooner than later.

Fund security bounties, or form a tiger team instead of letting a hostile force performing it for us. Max chance for accomplishing our goal, not max chance for extra publicity.

Quote
Anyway, that's just one of the PR opportunities that we have now, I think the other very promising opportunity is getting a headless bitcoin client included in the debian repos.

There are plenty of PR opportunity that doesn't make us get additional scrutiny from the government.


Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: davout on December 07, 2010, 10:33:23 PM
Time is on our side. There is no need to test this proposition when we can gradually grows and then catch the government off guard. Than they can't do shit.

Well, that also means giving time to a government to catch *us* off guard.
It's a self regulating system, the more attention bitcoin gets, the stronger its network becomes, the more resilient it gets to any attack, and it seems obvious to me that if we got loads of PR tomorrow, people would fire their GPUs before the NSA schedules a brainstorming session.

Fund security bounties, or form a tiger team instead of letting a hostile force performing it for us. Max chance for accomplishing our goal, not max chance for extra publicity.

I'd rather get out of my room and get creative with the girl I like instead of trying to anticipate everything she could say, try to guess what she thinks about me, try to come up with a master plan or anything.

Same thing goes for bitcoin, I'd rather see it getting out there confronting itself to reality rather than sitting in its room trying to imagine what the NSA people will come up with. Time is also on NSA side :)

There are plenty of PR opportunity that doesn't make us get additional scrutiny from the government.

Of course there are lots of governments around the world, lots of NSA-like organizations, that's something that shouldn't be forgotten :)
You can't just shut bitcoin down, you can shut an american exchange down, but once you've done that you won't be able to shut the european one.
You can overpower the network, but thats just temporary.
And if a government were to try these kind of tricks that would just be free PR bringing new users, strengthening the whole system as a result.

Anyway, it's nice to hear other people's opinions!


Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: kiba on December 07, 2010, 10:36:37 PM
Quote

I'd rather get out of my room and get creative with the girl I like instead of trying to anticipate everything she could say, try to guess what she thinks about me, try to come up with a master plan or anything.

Same thing goes for bitcoin, I'd rather see it getting out there confronting itself to reality rather than sitting in its room trying to imagine what the NSA people will come up with. Time is also on NSA side :)


Not if we make it extraordinary harder for NSA to discover new holes, cause we plugged them all.

A tiger team IS confronting reality. It just find holes through any mean possible. Find security vulnerabilities are like vaccination.


Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: davout on December 07, 2010, 11:03:31 PM
Not if we make it extraordinary harder for NSA to discover new holes, cause we plugged them all.

There is no such thing bug-free software, and there is no such thing as weakness-free protocol.
You might plug a couple of holes by investing a lot of resources but you will never have any guarantee that there aren't any remaining.
Waiting for perfection before confronting reality is the best way not to acomplish anything at all.

A tiger team IS confronting reality. It just find holes through any mean possible. Find security vulnerabilities are like vaccination.

Wrong. A "tiger team" tries to think and anticipate very hard on what will happen when the actual confrontation takes place.

Time will tell I guess


Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: kiba on December 07, 2010, 11:07:44 PM
There is no such thing bug-free software, and there is no such thing as weakness-free protocol.
You might plug a couple of holes by investing a lot of resources but you will never have any guarantee that there aren't any remaining.
Waiting for perfection before confronting reality is the best way not to acomplish anything at all.


It's called a surprise party. We will have a party at the deathbed of governments, while they try to furiously struggle to get out of the bed for one last confrontation.

But anyway, the idea of fixing vulnerabilities, in my opinion have merit. Software quality can get better.


Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2010, 11:22:14 PM
Wikileaks will use bitcoin of their own accord. When there is no other options left.

The thing is if the US government declares wikileaks a terrorist organisation then starts accepting bitcoin would anyone be game to donate?

Thats the real fear at the moment. Stupid politicians over reacting.



Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: davout on December 07, 2010, 11:31:08 PM
It's called a surprise party. We will have a party at the deathbed of governments, while they try to furiously struggle to get out of the bed for one last confrontation.
You have my war-lemur

But anyway, the idea of fixing vulnerabilities, in my opinion have merit. Software quality can get better.
Yes, absolutely.


Wikileaks will use bitcoin of their own accord. When there is no other options left.
Or when a big pile of LRUSD is thrown at them :)

The thing is if the US government declares wikileaks a terrorist organisation then starts accepting bitcoin would anyone be game to donate?
I would

Thats the real fear at the moment. Stupid politicians over reacting.
My fear is bitcoiners over-fearing if that makes any sense
As long as SHA256 hashes are still legal in France I'm fine with everything :)


Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: bitplane on December 08, 2010, 02:23:41 AM
Some trusted individual take BTC donations, convert, send cash in the post to WikiLeaks. No publicity, no worries, just good practical use of the currency.


Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: kiba on December 08, 2010, 02:31:52 AM
Some trusted individual take BTC donations, convert, send cash in the post to WikiLeaks. No publicity, no worries, just good practical use of the currency.

Just send money to wikileak directly.


Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: bitplane on December 08, 2010, 02:43:30 AM
Everyone? All pay conversation rates to Euros, all pay for postage and so on?


Title: Re: Wikileaks Bitcoin Fundraiser
Post by: da2ce7 on December 08, 2010, 02:59:52 AM
I live in Melbourne (suburbs), I could drop some cash straight into Melbourne UNI.