Bitcoin Forum

Maybe this is a bit phylosophical topic, but the other day I was wondering at which Bitcoin amount it doesn't matter anymore if you're getting more Bitcoin, since you can't exchange it to fiat.

Example:
At the current price of app. 4500 $ per BTC you can exchange to fiat:
100 BTC = 450.000 $ / no problem
1.000 BTC = 4.500.000 $ / a bit of problem
10.000 BTC = 45.000.000 $ / a problem
100.000 BTC = 450.000.000 $ / a big problem
...

See where I'm going? And that's at the current price. I could get even more interesting when the price will be 10.000 $ per Bitcoin or even more. 

How do you exchange 45M$? or 450M? So does it make any difference if you hodl 10.000 BTC or 100.000 BTC, since you can't exchange it to fiat anyway without raising suspicion, even if you're very well connected?

What would be the breaking or maybe maximum point of Bitcoin still exhangeable to fiat?
What's your take on that?

I feel like at some level, you run into this issue with normal currency trading itself. You can't simply go to a currency exchange booth and say that you have 5 million in USD that you need converted to Euros asap. That will be an issue and almost just as impossible as getting the bitcoin converted. I think it's too tough and early to make any statements of the Bitcoin availability for high level currency exchange.

Why not convert it bit by bit? One would get problems if he/she converted too much of btc to fiat. In that cases owner should convert it by only sending 100 bitcoin at most per conversion and just wait for a week before converting again. Either way he/she is still in profit if the price of bitcoin dumped next week because most of those who holds that much bought it in low price anyway.

Yeah, I agree, that you can do it gradually, or even to travel around the world and converting at BTC atms in different countries.

But I was thinking more about if you want to "legally" convert and also pay tax - everything by the book - but which bank can cash out 450 million Euro? or 1 billion? That could be a problem.

Good question. Many banks cover up to $100,000 insurance where sums over $100,000 are not insured. In exchanging btc to fiat avoiding sums over $100k could work in principle. Other concerns might be things like transfer fees and the amount of interest yield on deposit. IRA roth and other "high interest yield" savings accounts could be one option for those who intend to save their converted btc in fiat. Another option could be converting to fiat to invest in stocks, bonds & other investments. DRIP (dividend reinvestment plan) could be a good option there.

Its difficult to imagine a scenario where btc is difficult to convert to fiat. If someday 1 satoshi (0.00000001 btc) is worth more than $100,000 there might be some difficulties finding a basic bank account to keep it in to insure your money. But if 1 satoshi was ever worth that much I think most of us would say the benefits are far outweighing any negative drawbacks.

My bank also has the limit - 150.000 EUR; so my plan would be to cash out and invest in real estate to avoid possible risk involving crypto (I'd do that with a portion and keep the majority in crypto). The real estate would then generate additional revenue stream in fiat.

if this is the case, i won't exchange all of my bitcoin into fiat, i just let it in bitcoin amount but i only exchange for small amount that will not make the banks suspicious with my account. i'd better to play safe than making third party service investigate me and asked me from where the money that i got. beside that, i feel comfort if no one asked me how much my finance especially the bank and the government.

Why such amount of cash? If you for some reason don't trust bitcoin or not you believe that the price of bitcoin will rise you can exchange to buy dollars and out on different people. This is not a problem. It would be a desire but a way is always there.

Even using majorly fiat, there is a limit to the amount you can move at once without providing an explanation both as an individual or as an organisation and those that move huge amount, there are already laid down rules and regulations to achieve that. Even if government decides to legalize bitcoin, there would still be some level of restriction on the maximum that would be flagged. For now, I think the equivalent of $10000 maximum can be moved without any issue.

Who will exchange 450 million?

The same concept can be applied to shares/currencies/gold

There are people who own 450 million of "A" shares but no one liquidates the entire thing in one day

Besides what will you do with 450 million dollars, there is hardly anything worth that much to buy

Hmm, indeed everything you say makes sense or is at the right point. Because there is a possibility that it has a problem if what we do in bitcoin is to sell many bitcoins at the same time, But you need to know that market in bitcoin is very big every day. so I think to sell 100.000 BTC is something easy, because we can do it in a few days. now the question is is it you can get bitcoin that much in a short time .. ?? , this is something that is not necessary to be discussed because it is definitely that much money we can get if indeed we have bitcoin

I don't see how could this be a problem. Why would you exchange huge amounts of fiat worth of bitcoin? If BTC has a big value, and you have a lot of them, you just exchange small amounts of BTC, that are accepted. That happens with everything you hold I guess, not just bitcoin. If you think you have so many BTC that you can't spend them in your life time, why don't you just donate some. Again, I don't really see this as a problem.

i don't know any exchange which is supporting usd or euro but i think the fiat i am using to save is chinese yen and it is available on bter exchange and most of the chinese use it to exchange in bitcoin and for converting bitcoin to the exchange to my country fait i use local bitcoin i think it is really a trusted site to watch.

It's not philosophical at all, it is a practical subject. Whales have to deal with this problem every single day. If they sell then it would likely mean that they have to take a much lesser rate on average for all their coins.

On Bitstamp, there is around 200 BTC worth of bids for bitcoin above the $4500 level. Cashing out 200 BTC shouldn't be a problem at all, if you spread your funds out on several exchanges instead of dumping on just one. Even localbitcoins traders can facilitate 200+ BTC trades sometimes.

There is no maximum. As long as there are buyers, bitcoin can be converted into fiat. What matters is the price you're getting them for. A 1k BTC dump could potentially mean you are getting on average 5% less for your coins than the spot price when you started selling. I'd say that anything above 5k dump would mean major market disruption.

The only thing that could drive the price up to those sort of levels would be BTC becoming mainstream. That is excepted by banks, exchanges and the rest of the financial industry. If that happens then it would be possible to convert as it would just be another currency, trillions of dollars are exchanged on the world forex markets every day. You might face some tax issues and be explaining where you got it from but that's a different issue.

Nope.

https://www.cryptoninjas.net/2017/06/08/cumberland-mining-offers-convert-bitcoin-held-mt-gox-cash/

This OTC broker offered a deal to buy all 202,000 coins in one deal.

No one with a significant amount of BTC should sell it on an exchange. There are extremely deep pockets off market.

Those high amounts you stated will not be a problem since Im sure no one will dump their coins at once. I can't imagined someone will sold all of their 100,000 BTC just to convert on fiat. Also the amount will depend on the exchange limits no matter how big your bitcoin is.

In here you need long period of time before you can convert all your bitcoin to fiat if you really need to cashout it all or maybe you can find a person who like to do big trades at once to avoid exchanges limit.

I, for one, look forward to having this "problem" some day.

"Woe is me.  I am having trouble converting my billions of dollars worth of Bitcoin to goods and services.  If only I had sold all my Bitcoins at $100 each then I would not be faced with such a difficult problem."

Unfortunately I don't have such large amount of Bitcoins to exchange but in my country everything above 100 BTC could reoresent a huge problem, especialy if the bank account is involved. The reason for that are anti money laundering laws and duty of all financial institutions and services to report such amounts. So, for this large amount of money financial investigstion could be condacted to establish the origin of funds.

Then keep a record of your Bitcoin buys and keep track of all your private keys. If you paid for it legitimately and sold it legitimately there's no problem.

It's no different than selling a classic car or painting. It's something you own that you've sold.

This turned out to be a nice debate :)

I guess if one should own that an amount he'd find a way to cash under the radar... But in general I'd hodl and then if it would arise to insane amounts that I couldn't spend in a lifetime I'd of course make some anonymous donation. Though my wife says - there's never so much money that one couldn't spend :)

The few that have those problems, the whales, are not cashing out, I think they are waiting for the day they can buy stuff with bitcoin directly, if I remember correctly some markets of luxury good for bitcoin have been created so you could use your bitcoin to buy those and then sell them if you want fiat.

Whales mostly never do saving like middle class people. They will choose the right option to invest the money in the proper channel for their money to work for them. Therefore, bitcoin is best channel for them. Most of the whales started invest and create a own gambling site to get all bitcoiners money easily without big efforts. In gambling always gambling site is winner since they have a daily winner or anything.

it is depend on trasn fee

sat/sec

so if you increase it trans time will run so fast but will limit

 i think 10M will take less than day with high fee

Well the price of the bitcoin is not yet stopped growing it is still increasing in the price and will be the best currency forever so in this situation I will not exchange my all bitcoin into fiat money. I want to leave my bitcoin as it is and not wanna change it so that in the future I will be able to increase my income I want to keep my bitcoin in the wallet so that it will not let other to steal my bitcoin so I am fine with keeping my bitcoin.

Why you dont exchange it little by little, if you exchange a huge amount the government will be suspicious, I know that feeling because I also ever thought about this problem, the solution is to exchange it a little by a little without rising suspicious, or you can borrow your friends account, for me the higher the price the better my life will be

I agree with the point - I too think that all the big hodlers wait for the times where you can buy directly with Bitcoin.

I think that people pay too much attention to the problems of how to save your money. It is not correct. I think you need to pay more attention to how to earn more money to have enough for the purchase of various goods and left for savings.

That's the problem and that's why a country regulate about exchanges or how much money you can transfer in a day using banks.
In that case, if you want to convert like BTC100, just go to the exchange office and transact over the counter, buy and sell directly to the exchange without trading in exchange (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw844AtuOAo). How much to buy or sell? Depend on the exchanges, how much they have in their wallet.

totally agree because in this way the transaction looks normal, so there is no arising suspicion from the government with the number of our transactions
while waiting for bitcoin prices to go up further for a better future

But while they are earning more bitcoin and that is always good, they are making the issue of cashing out even larger, by having and operating a bitcoin casino you are only getting more bitcoin not fiat, so it will be very difficult to turn all your coins to fiat immediately so you need to think of another way to do that if you were a whale.

True maybe it would be much more easier to cash out small portions of money, rather than to cash out a big ammounts. Also tax comission can enter your house if you will start getting huge ammounts of money on your bank account :)

You can cash out as much as you want.  All you have to to is pay the tax on the gain then the tax commission is happy and will not bother you.  Simple.

You can cash out millions of dollars worth of Bitcoins in a few days without affecting the market.  Pay the tax.  The gains are yours.

It isn't going to work like that. The balances of bitcoins is not going to be large enough to do that unless someone is sitting on a bag and the chain shows that no one has anything near that level. So, in the end, there are very few points in time when this could come up. At the same time, you need a buyer to match the seller and that is not going to happen. So, moot point.

There's no limit when you want to exchange your bitcoin. But remember that the government always eyes on those who has many liabilities and properties. And they will imply tax on your properties. Sometimes it really better if you just cashout small amount from your acct.

The truth is there is no limit on exchanging bitcoin, but you have to consider that Government is eyeing on those who has larger assets and properties. It would be suspicious if you exchange large amount, the wisest way is to cash out small amount without cathching attention for you to become suspicios. So if you really desire to cash out to its maximum, just pay the right tax and the government would not bother you

It's a very valid question when talking about exchanges. Have thought about it myself and the best solution I could come up with was to just open a trading account on localbitcoins, open a few bank accounts in several countries and start selling it. Just setting your price below the market would have you selling hundreds, if not thousands of BTC in weeks.

I'm certain if you also contacted one of this forum's escrows to hold an auction, you'd get a few bids.

It really depends on the amount you have for small holders that is a possibility but for the whale with thousands of coins that is not really a possibility, if they want to withdraw their money they will have to declare to the authorities about their earnings and where do they got them from.

exchanged 10,000 btc = 450M dollars suspicious finance ministers could be related to corruption incoming questions from every direction can be from where your wealth can be finance ministers suspect money laundering has done a major problem occurs

The article is not opening for me, but, wow, that's a big deal indeed. And I agree that depositing such a big amount on an exchange is a crazy thing to do. Don't tempt the exchange owners, guys. :) If you want to exchange big amount do it a part at a time, no need to do it in one deal. One can object that that the rate might become worse with time, but since it's unpredictable it can become better in the same way.

I for one would not want to withdraw that amount at once because over here there is a law that is even obvious in the banking hall that any transfer of an higher than the equivalent of $10,000 (which currently is not even up to 3 btc) should be reported to the authorities and there is no way cashing out such amount won't involve the bank.

Since I don't have the energy to give explanation after a ban would have been placed on all banks account connected to me and shut out of the resources I own,  then its better to avoid trouble all together.

I haven't come across lot of bitcoin exchanges. But I have started using localbitcoins for the conversion of bitcoin to fiat through different traders who have been listed to the trading page. Here I have found traders with millions of USD that can be provided for the users who exchange bitcoin for fiat.

First I understand your point that on how are we going to convert those in fiat and let the exchange grant our transaction. As for the exchanges,local or not here in my country the local exchange does implement daily limit so you can't really cash out that big amount. You need to be patient by cashing it out a little by little.

Agree, you can't trust the exchanges 100%. And of course it would also hurt the price.

No, there is always a limit. Let’s take for example– Mr. John has an account in Unity Bank, and for five years the highest amount he’s got paid is $5000. If he exchanges Bitcoin and gets $450,000, that will be suspicious. So there is a limit.

But for a true whale someone with a lot of money in bitcoin that is going to take forever while regulations and taxes are a pain if someone has tens of millions of dollars worth of bitcoin that he acquired legally then it could be a good idea to be open about it pay his taxes and enjoy his money without a worry.

That was my thought exactly - if you know you got it legally, than the only way to enjoy your wealth in full extent would be to exchange the desired amount, pay taxes and game on!
You can buy for example a car, computers, some travels with "un-taxed" money with no trouble, but you can't buy real estate without raising suspicion.

Correct, even if at some point bitcoin is accepted everywhere and you ca buy whatever you want, if you want to buy something expensive like real estate, the government is going to realize you are buying a house with bitcoin and are going to come to try to collect their share.

Many people are saying bitcoin is being illegal in their country but they does not give any announcement about bitcoin is illegal in any country, china is exception. So we can utiize the bitcoin without any issue. If you exchange your bitcoin with the trader, finally he transfer the money via internet banking only. Then it should be consider as legal only.

Why exchange to fiat? with more adoption you can spend your bitcoin without exchange it to fiat. The problem right now is there's not many merchants who accept bitcoin especially in developing country but if bitcoin is already big and popular, you can buy anything with it as everyone will accept it as form of payment (except in the country that banned bitcoin).

Yup with that kinda money there will be FBI standing outside your door knocking you down! That's huge money and even Wall Street was shook once when wolf was barking! The money is too much in terms of fiat and that should be converted very carefully. May be a small amount at a single time and another small in the another week or so on. Then you might be able to convert it all over a period of year or two which is still good as millions of dollars is not a joke.

With wide acception it eliminates the need to exchange to fiat - that is cool, but the problem with the source of wealth re authorites is still there. So for smaller day-to-day amounts you can do without announcing it to authorities (like people already do now with afternoon work) and for bigger amounts it is better to announce to avoid troubles with men in black  :D

There is as such no limit of cashing out bitcoins but as you said, try not to cash out large amounts because then you will be under strict observation. Big amounts are going to make governments and other authorities very much suspicious about you and you may be charged heavily in the name of tax as well.

Yep - easy does it, in this situation it's especially true ;)

Yes , this op is dreaming about future of bitcoin with a full-filling with money. But it can be happen if Bitcoin core updating and improving more to become a real currency that can become international. Happen or not ? That's still what we(bitcoin holders) want . Till that day comes, bitcoin still have to through every single problems.

I always take what people say with a grain of salt since their sources most of the time are facebook and their hunches, especially when we are talking about a topic in which I have a lot more knowledge than them, someone tried to same the same thing to me and then I asked to him if he knew what was the blockchain, he look at me with a puzzled look and thats all what I needed to know about the value of his opinion.

This would probably pose as a big problem for people who would manage to accumulate that much btc in their lifetime. I mean i won't have that much bitcoin even if i get lucky several times continuously. I think wallets would have issues holding that much amount at the same time

You are very much right. You need to be very careful about the Government and you should take necessary steps in case if it becomes legal then. I think you can keep as much amount of Bitcoin as you want, but you have to play very wisely then. You first need to make a proper planning before buying the Bitcoins like what to do next.

Good description.! but whether is  necessary to exchange the bitcoin into fiat currency with the amount you describe. Because now there are many payment systems that adapt bitcoin. And by letting our funds in the form of bitcoin provide benefits because of the higher bitcoin prices can be a long-term investment

That’s for you, I will prefer to be withdrawing my Bitcoin to Fiat whenever I feel it’s the right time to do so and there is no amount that should be regarded as max amount when it comes to withdrawing your bitcoin to Fiat.

It all depends on bank account, you know how much that comes into your account regularly, do you should maintain the same level of amount to avoid suspicion from bank which may lead to them blocking your account. If you’re getting billions into your account regularly, then there is nothing wrong with $450 million dollars.