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Hi was thinking about maybe starting to mine altcoins the only problem is would you say 0.07 USD per KHw is to expensive?

I pay 0.19 USD per KHw and mine Equihash and even with the market down I'm making $3 a day profit.  With that being said, getting your rig capital back went from @ 100ish days a few months ago to over a year now--provided coin value doesn't go up.

check out whattomine.com and choose what cards you'll be using at the top then plug in your power cost near the bottom and see what it shows...

If you are saying $3 per day with 1 graphics card then I must say that your are the greatest liar ever, not even with 1 x gtx 1080 ti which you pay $700 - $800 makes $3 per day and it is the best card for mining to date, I just checked whattomine and it says 1 gtx 1080 ti $1.24 profit with electricity paid mining equihash, so where is the $3 per day you said is beyond me, see that is why people start get in mining cause you trolls are liars about the profit you are making, now tell me whatthehell did you say that? do you have a mental brain problem, illness or that kind sort?

And by the way, at the current price, $750 for a gtx 1080 ti divided by $1.24 = 604.8 days to get your money back, that is almost 2 years and if we also add other parts of the equipment for example motherboard, cpu and other things that will make the target to get back around $900 per card which the true value to get back is $850 divided 1.24 = 685.4 days to get your money invested back, so meaning mining is the worse thing to do right now. Go buy coins and hold, trust me you will earn a lot more money doing it without hassle.

what is it with the angry replies on this forum, where did you get one GPU from?  I've got 5 x 1070s.  I answered the OPs question with his concern with electricity and brought up the hardware ROI.  You apparently have the mental brain problem as you read into things that are simply not there.

If your electricity bill is USD0.07 per kw, then it is quite good for mining. And in order to save more power cost, you can under-volt your gpu.

You should have put how many cards cause usually people think is just one gpu cause $3 per card used to be few weeks ago and when people say without putting how many cards then other people think is just 1 gpu.

so now you are dictating what should be standard responses to questions? 

Look at the ops original question, he was asking about power costs...there's nothing about GPUs mentioned.

ultimately you will try to justify your angry reply, but there are several ppl like yourself that have "issues".

I'm not dictating anything, I'm just saying your answer was incomplete cause if was complete you would not have got a reply from me.

I mean think about how you said it, this is what I read "hey, I pay $0.19 per kw and yet I make $3 profit per day" That sounds like is 1 gpu and not 5 cause in reality you are not making any profit at all, so meaning if you had said you have 5 cards and justified your roi then your answer would be complete and very good. Your answer was poor and incomplete and made people think how the hell are you getting $3 on a $0.19 per kw and yet 1 card.

My electricity cost is quite similar, and I still have a rig of 7000 series cards running. It's not immensely profitable, but I still recoup power costs and then some (if I were to trade my coins for USD immediately, which I usually don't).

I also have a rig of 3GB 1060s that is much more successful. When power costs are a concern, you should try to go for more power-efficient cards, even though used upper-tier cards of previous generations sometimes offer better hashes for the initial investment (when they are available in sufficient supply).
(Both rigs are currently mining Zcash.)


When it comes down to it, you'll have to look at the mining profitability estimates on your own (see online calculators), and then decide whether or not certain hardware is worth mining with. I will caution you, however, that this may not be the best time to invest in new hardware, given the uncertainty created by some of China's recent policies. (To be honest, I suspect that the Chinese are attempting to use their influence to conduct insider trading after encouraging users to panic sell.)

I'm not dictating anything, I'm just saying your answer was incomplete cause if was complete you would not have got a reply from me
 
 --lol yeah, you just did it again and you don't even know it.  It's OK bro, I forgive you for saying that I had mental problems.

Are you sure that $ 0.07 is your total electricity cost or is it your shopping price? Where I live electricity is advertised @ $ 0.079 per kilowatt but that does not include distribution, transmission and other  charges. So while it is listed @ $0.079 it is more around $0.14. That's almost double the quoted price. Just look at your power bill real close and deconstruct it with math. Otherwise you are going to be setting yourself up for a disappointment.   

no
in all countries there is a reserve for electric power.
price isnt linked with mining

Well it's not "too" expensive and I can surely say that a lot of miners mine with a much higher rate.
Anyway I could only speak for myself.

I pay about 0.045 per kW/h where I live. And it's pretty awesome. Right now with three gtx 1060s I pay about $16 only in electricity.
If zcash pops back up to $245 per coin, I'd be getting about $5 per day from these three cards.

That's about $135 per month without almost any efforts. Do your calculations yourself and see if the profits are acceptable.
Each gtx 1060 takes about 120w and for the system itself add another 110w.

Do the math and decide (take into consideration how many months are needed to get roi).

I don't know when you bought them, but if someone were to by them right now new they are over $400 each and that is what you need to consider when answering peoples questions who are considering getting into mining right now. So using your rig as an example you have 5 x $400 or $2000, plus another $300 for the rest of the system making for at least a $2300 investment in hardware.

Inputting this data into whattomine with a $0.19 electric rate shows about a $5/day profit after electrical costs, which is bit higher that the $3 day you listed. So even with this information you have $2300/5 = 460 days before getting your money back.

To the OP, using this same information, you will do slightly better with your $0.07 power rate, as you shoudl earn ~$6.70/day after electricity. So you have $2,300/6.7 = 343 days to achieve ROI.

Of course the problem with both of these predictions is that difficulty will continue to go up. This means the coins price will need to also continue to go up to keep profitability at the same levels. If the coins price goes down than you could be looking at 2 years or even never before achieving ROI.

So this brings up the point I usually give to people looking into buying a rig at this point in the game. Since both mining and directly purchasing a cryptocoin outright are counting on the fact that the coin's prices needs to increase to make any profit, you will be better off just buying the coin and skipping all the mining.

The time to get into mining is when the hardware prices are actually below MSRP and not when they are at a 150% premium. I expect over the next 3-6 months we may see a selloff of mining hardware as profits are continuing to go down, but people are still adding hashrate at a feverish pace expecting everything to correct.

The problem is is that difficulty usually lags price by some amount, so there will be a long period of negative profits coming up when mining. People will probably tough it out for a month or so expecting the correction, but eventually they will realize they are actually just paying more for the coins they are mining than if they simply just went out and bought them. At this point everything will come crashing down and you will be able to pick up those same 1070's new for probably under $300 and used for under $200.


UPDATE: As I was writing this I see someone else has posted just before me that illustrates my point perfectly:


So this guy is not doing his calculations at today's Zcash price of ~$175, but instead of a (hopeful) future price of $245 to make his calculations. So "if" Zcash goes up another $70 he will be making $5/day with a $660 investment in GPUs (not including the system).

So we have two scenarios, one invest $660 in GPUs today to earn $5/day (again if the price goes back to $245) and two just take that $660 and buy 3.77 Zcash coins. (I am leaving system costs out as to make the example easier.)

So let's look at the mining route. The 3 1060's are making closer to $3.60/day right now as Zcash is actually trading at $175 and not $245. So $660/$3.60 is 183 days to ROI. If the price does go back to $245 we are looking at only a 132 day ROI, which is quite good actually.

If we instead invest in Zcash we have 3.77 coins in our wallet for the same $660 investment. Those coins are worth $660 today, so in effect you already ROI on them. If the Zcash price "pops" back up to $245 as per the posters argument, your Zcash would then be worth $923.65. This represents a $263.65 profit.

If you are mining instead and the price pops up to $245, you still need to mine for those 132 days to just pay off the GPUs, much less make the extra $263. To earn the full $923.65 you would need to mine for 184 days even using the $5/day profit target.

I think most miners also calculate the resale value of their GPUs as a hedge which your calculations don't account for above.  Granted this summer has been an anomaly when it comes to GPU resale pricing, but even getting 50% of the original value of your GPU a year after purchase is probably do-able.

So... add an extra $1000 from that initial $2000 GPU purchase investment.

The problem with the hedge argument is if the mining profitability were to go poof I do not think you would get 50% for you cards. One factor is most retail prices are actually 150% of MSRP. So a card that normally would sell for $200 such as a RX580 8 GB is going for $300+. So if the market collapses you will not be selling a "normally" $200 card for $150 (which 50% of the overpriced $300 you paid) but probably closer to $75 which is a little more than a 50% drop from the MSRP. And even this may be too generous as there is a lot more GPUs out there now than back when scrypt mining went away.

Also the hedge as you put it is still offset by the pure profit buying coins would give you. So instead of hoping for ROI in 6+ months and then hedging by selling your GPU, you could come out just as much or more by buying the coins directly. Also in the event of a sudden and violent market downturn, it is much easier to get in and out of coin potions that it is a mining setup.

I disagree, but we can agree to disagree.

There are still plenty of miners who will snatch up your GPUs at a reduced cost because they have cheap power or are willing to stick it out.  And the gaming market is much larger than the mining market, and gamers are always on the lookout for a bargain GPU.

Usually people mining is linked to electricity cost, so if electricity cost is the same within that region then if one stops mining cause is not profitable then all the other will likely follow and they will not buy gpu's, if profitable then all buy cards, if not then all sell cards. Within the US power cost is different so if one stops the other which is not where the electricity costs is high may not stop, so within the US is something, rest of world may or may not be the same, meaning if is not profitable, people will sell and nobody will buy.

The way things are, with roi getting higher and higher, right now is around 1 year and 6 months to break even, few months ago was 120 days.

It's good to have your own opinion I have no argument with that. I am simply trying to paint a different viewpoint as most people new to mining did not live through the last boom bust cycle to see how things play out.

As far as your statement about still plenty of miners willing to buy GPUs, yes that is true because we haven't went bust yet. Even once mining profitability turns negative you are correct in predicting many people will try to tough it out for a month, maybe more thinking things will return to normal. It is when we start to grind on for months on end where you are either mining at an outright loss or at most making 20 cents/day off that 6 GPU rig that people will wake up and begin the exodus.

And if and when that day comes it will be just like a market crash in that once GPUs start selling off in bulk, the floodgates will open and people start undercutting each other to get out while the getting is good. Gamers will indeed have a field day, but they will mostly be looking at the now discounted retail cards as most of them are now wise to the used (but not used for mining; wink, wink) GPU market.

Yes this is very true that higher electricity rate miners will be the first to shut down their rigs. Just like the last bust cycle, I am sure there were miners with under $0.04 electricity rates that continued on while making some small profits. However for people who were paying much more that $0.06 there were stretches of time where it was at best break-even. Of course people then resort to rationalization, such as well my miners are also heating up my space so the electricity bill is really for heat and mining is a bonus. While there may be some truth to that, when things are starting to get that tight in terms of mining profits you know the game is about up.

I don't disagree with the warnings for newer miners, but I disagree with the calculations people provide in those arguments.  The disagreement comes from the advice that buying a coin is a better prospect than mining a coin, and not taking into account at least *some* capital recovery when selling the GPUs, and motherboards on the secondary market.  Those proceeds from selling old GPUs will either bolster overall profits when the miner quits, or will go towards upgrading to more powerful/efficient equipment.

I do agree that new miners thinking they will recoup their capital investment costs (not ROI) in less than 6 months are gone for now.  They must be prepared to stick it out for a year or more at this point... and no one knows what the future will bring.

The problem is that warranty usually lasts one year and in some cases warranty requests are not granted, meaning you will take the loss and move on, so if we see a roi of 1 year and 6 months right now for the whole system then we see no profit at all cause think about, leaving 24 hours the computer on is challenging, there are too many internal and external problems in which you have no control, thunderstorms, thieves, natural disasters, accidents and so many more, so meaning, mining really needs to be profitable for you to be mining, i'd say at least $2.50 for a card that cost $400. A roi to be okay must be less than 200 days, if more than 200 days then is a problem and right now gpu mining profit is terrible cause hardware is overpriced and profit is underpriced hehe

 1080 ti DOES in fact make very close to $3 a day on some coins currently - even with the big dump - it's just not CONSISTANTLY doing so the last 3 days.


 On the other hand, the days of "2-3 month ROI on gear" are gone, and unlikely to return anytime soon IF at all.
 It would take a major VERY SHORT TIMEFRAME big price jump (much like Feb/March timeframe THIS year) to manage that - or it would take a major price DUMP for quite a while to convince most miners to get out, then sometime AFTER that a big price jump.


 People got SPOILED the last few months with the crazy VERY ABNORMAL level of profitability.

Not sure whatthehell you are mining cause this link says otherwise, 1 gtx 1080 ti gives $1.80 net per day on Signatum(SIGT) which is on top on the profit list. So in turn if you paid $700 then your roi will be 433 days and that is assuming you make the same as whattomine says which is not true, expect 20% less than whattomine says and not counting problems, downtime and many other things, meaning your roi will likely be 500 days.

https://whattomine.com/coins?utf8=%E2%9C%93&adapt_q_280x=0&adapt_q_380=0&adapt_q_fury=0&adapt_q_470=1&adapt_q_480=1&adapt_q_570=0&adapt_q_580=0&adapt_q_750Ti=0&adapt_q_10606=0&adapt_q_1070=1&adapt_q_1080=0&adapt_q_1080Ti=1&adapt_1080Ti=true&eth=true&factor%5Beth_hr%5D=35.0&factor%5Beth_p%5D=140.0&grof=true&factor%5Bgro_hr%5D=58.0&factor%5Bgro_p%5D=210.0&x11gf=true&factor%5Bx11g_hr%5D=19.5&factor%5Bx11g_p%5D=170.0&cn=true&factor%5Bcn_hr%5D=830.0&factor%5Bcn_p%5D=140.0&eq=true&factor%5Beq_hr%5D=635.0&factor%5Beq_p%5D=190.0&lre=true&factor%5Blrev2_hr%5D=64000.0&factor%5Blrev2_p%5D=190.0&ns=true&factor%5Bns_hr%5D=1400.0&factor%5Bns_p%5D=190.0&lbry=true&factor%5Blbry_hr%5D=460.0&factor%5Blbry_p%5D=190.0&bk2bf=true&factor%5Bbk2b_hr%5D=2800.0&factor%5Bbk2b_p%5D=190.0&bk14=true&factor%5Bbk14_hr%5D=4350.0&factor%5Bbk14_p%5D=210.0&pas=true&factor%5Bpas_hr%5D=1700.0&factor%5Bpas_p%5D=210.0&skh=true&factor%5Bskh_hr%5D=47.5&factor%5Bskh_p%5D=190.0&factor%5Bl2z_hr%5D=420.0&factor%5Bl2z_p%5D=300.0&factor%5Bcost%5D=0.19&sort=Profitability24&volume=0&revenue=24h&factor%5Bexchanges%5D%5B%5D=&factor%5Bexchanges%5D%5B%5D=bittrex&factor%5Bexchanges%5D%5B%5D=bleutrade&factor%5Bexchanges%5D%5B%5D=bter&factor%5Bexchanges%5D%5B%5D=c_cex&factor%5Bexchanges%5D%5B%5D=cryptopia&factor%5Bexchanges%5D%5B%5D=poloniex&factor%5Bexchanges%5D%5B%5D=yobit&dataset=Main&commit=Calculate

But how about if in one year there in no longer any mining profit? Past ROIs of 3-4 months were not only fantastic opportunities, but they were also short enough to at least have some semblance of what the actual ROI period would be in real life. Even with a fudge factor built in to the predictions an extra month or two would not materially affect the miner's long-term plans.

But now that we are entering the phase of 12 month+ ROI forecasts, with some as long as 18 months to 2 years, even the calculations comes into question as there is no reliable way to predict that far out. So even if I am fine with spending $2400 today on a 6x RX580 rig that gets 180 Mhash/sec and nets (after electric) $5 a day, I do the math and say well 480 days is not so bad. There is no way that calculation is going to hold up for a 480 days period. Next month profit will most likely be down to $4 day, the month after maybe $3 a day, by the end of the year maybe it is $2/day.

So we have the following hypothetical example:
September - $5/day * 30 = $150 (I use the whole month to make it easier)
October - $4/day * 31 = $124
November - $3/day * 30 = $90
December - $2/day * 31 = $64

So a new miner who just invested $2400 in hardware might make $428 of that back by year's end.

So using your capital recovery argument, they see reason at that time and then liquidate their hardware assets. Well by then the GPU craze will be over and retail prices will be back to MSRP or even at a slight discount due to the (now flooding) used market. So that $2400 in hardware might only get $1200. But even if we are generous and say it is still worth $1600 used, we can add to it the $428 in profit and the investor only has $2028 to show for his $2400 investment, or a $372 loss, not counting the time and effort.

And yes, a massive increase in coin prices would push off the inevitable day of reckoning a little bit longer, but then we get back to the "better off to buy the coin directly" argument you do despise.

...and you guys are not even taking into account that there will be GTX 11 generation next year. This will kill resell value and make your hashrate not competitive against GDDR6 etc.

Last time gpu mining profitability went close to zero buying hash was really profitable. We'll see how it plays out this time.

Most trolls think about now, reason you see many saying "my 1080 ti is awesome, i got my roi already!", all lies, that is what they do, brag lies, the only ones who got the roi many times were the traders. ETH before the pump was $7, 90% of miners sold at that price, 5% sold at $14, 3% sold at $28, 1% sold at $100, 0.01% sold at $400, see there you go hehe, traders got more than 2000%, miners got at most 120% if they come from the beginning which is march last year, new miners that started on april did not even get 30% of their roi hehe but they will tell you they did hehe

Agreed, this is another reason that ROI estimates greater than 12 months are really unrealistic, in that new hardware will come out making the calculations even less likely to hold up over such a long period of time.

This is a valid hypothetical scenario... but only one of a thousand different hypothetical scenarios.  What happens if you buy a coin, and it never goes back to the price that you bought it for?

Gamers will still buy GTX 10 cards.  The market will determine their value on the secondary market, and that price will fluctuate depending on how many miners are dumping to upgrade or to get out of mining completely.  Heck, gamers are still buying GTX 900 cards if the price is right, and they are up to 2 years old at this point.

This is also disingenuous.  Traders also bought and sold at those price milestones as well.  Very few people actually bought in at $7 or less and held for long term.

Where I live secondary market cards are trash, people just want the new and best marketing card.


We cant say traders sold like the miners, traders don't need to pay electricity, miners do, so miners will always sell coins at whatever price is at moment cause they need the money to pay the electricity, now traders don't have that problem, they can hold much much much longer.

Then you are in the same boat as the hypothetical miner above who invested $2400 to mine the same coin, however by holding a coin you can cut your losses a lot quicker than a miner can.

I am not against mining or am I against trading as I do both. However, there is a time to do one or the other and getting into mining right now just isn't a good investment. Early this year it was a good investment, simply because the run-up in prices in virtual every coin. So now we have this big group of people who either bought a bunch of mining gear and got rich, who maybe held a lot of coins (almost anything) and became rich, and those who first invested into cryptocurrency (again almost anything) and become rich. So most of the people we see posting really never went through the bad times, they have only seen good times where almost any decision right or wrong has paid off since everything has went up so dramatically.

So now myself and a few others try to inject some reason into to all these "you can't lose money" type of posts but are just meant with ridicule and disdain. Yeah, everyone wants to party to keep going and easy money to keep flowing in, but at some point you really need to sit down, do the calculations, the real ones and not rosy "if the price shoots up I will be golden" type ones, and come to your own conclusions. Markets do have boom and bust cycles and mining follows along with that but also has unique dynamics all its own.

As I type this the mining difficulty for most popular coins continues to rise even with the recent downtrend in price. This means even if prices recover, the amount of coins a given hash-rate can produce will be less than it was in the past. So prices not only need to recover, they need to go up enough to offset the increase in difficulty that has occurred in the meantime. This would mean Ethereum would probably need to hit $500-$600 to even remotely return to recent mining profitability numbers. So eventually one way or another the mining glory days will come to a halt, either by a sustained market downtrend or after a complete saturation of network hash-rate.

That's not the scenario for miners at all.  Miners don't have a price point for the coin to wait for... they can either dump for profits now, to offset their capital investment, or hold and wait for higher prices at any time.  At no time does a miner operate at a "loss" except when electricity costs more than the revenue the mining is bringing in.



This is very true.  I think Alan Greenspan called it "irrational exuberance" prior to the markets crashing in 2008.




And I agree with a little bit of sanity checking... my only disagreement is when people say just buying the coin is a better way, and they don't take the full life cycle of a miner into account when trying to show the calculations.  Ignoring resale of equipment is not painting the correct picture between mining versus just buying a coin.



People have been saying this about Bitcoin for years now, but people still mine it for a profit.  Granted, the barrier to entry is a lot higher now, as you have to continuously purchase better and better ASICs.  But, as long as there are PoW coins, there will be miners.

I think your cost for electricity is pretty cheap, here I have a friend he paid 0.12 per kw per hour, he still got some profits for gpu mining.

i made the mistake of selling my gpu's the last time mining became unprofitable. then eth came out and i had to buy them all again. there will be new coins come out from time to time. keep the gpus and mine the new coins that come out and wait to see if they go like eth did

yes the power 0.07 $ is too expensive for KWH but you can seeking for other source would more reliable the used manufacture / government the solar option is batter one

if you want to details calculate, i wouldn't advise that you can make big profit and return cash in short period
i would suggest just buy some coins and hold it for a year if you decide want to make profit simple

 Sounds like Alliant Energy, where the "extra fees and taxes" were often a majority of my total bill.

 Nice thing about the 3 counties of Central Washington "Super Cheap Power Rate", the rates are very simple the only "extra fees" not spelled out in the BASIC RATE SCHEDUAL are the local/state sales tax, and the ALL UP price for 2 of the 3 counties for ALL service types comes to around 3 cents/kwh OR LESS (the third has 4.5 ballpark all-up cost for residential and small business).


 Solar is MORE expensive when you factor all the costs in, unless you get some HUGE government rebates on the equipment costs - and you have to tie into the electrical grid ANYWAY for when the array isn't producing full output or close, or you have to have HUGE battery banks which tend to increase your investment cost a lot AND the batteries wear out and need replacement over time.

 Wind - is similar, but is closer to being competative with normal power generation in many areas and in some high-price electric areas like in California that also have fairly high average winds (Tehachapi Pass or the Cajun Pass areas as examples) it might BE the low-cost option.

Nothing can beat hidro.

How are ROI's that high? shouldn't I be making anywhere from $2-3 A day, even with 580's

I guess you are a newbie, profitability now increased a bit compared to how it was back when i posted that reply. There was a time when people with 0.1 per kw was getting nothing no profit at all from mining, if you had to pay 0.2 per kw then you would be broken and in debt in a matter of weeks.

I think it's too late to start mining now.
It is better to invest the money that you spend on equipment for mining directly in promising crypto / ICOs.