Bitcoin Forum

Hey Guys,

I have invested into BTC quite a bit, when talking to family and friends about its potential etc. many are against it and say it's a bubble waiting to pop.

What are your thought on this? the price has gone ridiculously high from since the beginning of this year and the general vibes on here are that it is going to hit 8000 by year end!
Question is how long before it pops and will it be a be bang drop or gradual ect...

Thanks! :o ::)

No one knows. Purely speculation but I think the recent pump has been due to the hard fork coming up in a few days time and the promise of 'free money'. I think we'll see it find its true value after the fork has happened and given enough time it should stabilize.

It's not a bubble, it's not just speculation. It is a technological paradigm shift. And by design it has to keep increasing its value in long term indefinetly.

As bitcoin always increases, a lot of people alway say it is a bubble and are about to explode. They believe that what they say and do is always right but BTC is still growing steadily, it isn't too dangerous here.

it's already gone on 6th bubble. There's no cure for bubbles other than running its course, then accumulation phase again. you know the market cycle. Our psychological price is 10k/btc. So sit tight.    

Will reach 10k soon (Last November was at 800$). If we have a price floor of 10k usd, Lightning Network and the Launch of Kim Dotcom's Bitcache we will be unstoppable.

I don't think people understood what the hard fork is going to be and that you are not guaranteed to get free money and you could even lose your existing bitcoins. I'm sure after that bitcoin is going to suffer greatly but I don't think it will crash ''too hard'' even 1000$ still puts it at 5k and that is still huge.

We have people saying this for years and it is still going strong. This must be the strongest bubble in the world. Let's say this

is a bubble for arguments sake... then this bubble could have been managed by a lot of people to reduce the risks. You buy

on the dip and you sell on the spike. {take profits and put it aside} then you re-invest and repeat this strategy until you have

received back your initial capital you invested of your own capital. Those people who are saying this are too afraid to take

risks and only want to be spectators pointing fingers from the side... they will never make money, because they are too afraid

to take risks.  ;D

The coming of hard fork has given a great pump to bitcoin price, due to which ones again it is seen as a bubble which will explode. The same view was observed when Bitcoin reached $5,000 but at that time it survived and this time it will also survive. After the fork one can expect a decease in the value of Bitcoin but that does not mean it will pop like a bubble, after fork their will be increase in sell orders due to which bitcoin market value will decrease but it will stable after a while, and one can expect to rise again after few day creating a record by the end of the year. And then again one will see statements like "Bitcoin is a bubble waiting to pop."

Most of the people saying BTC is a bubble. Notable are US billionaires, who are either spreading FUD so they can control the value or just purely insecure with BTC because its a threat to their banks. This bubble issue has been long ago, a segwit happen and FUD spreads, but still bitcoin managed to hold its own. No one can say it BTC will die, but the fact is more people are getting interested on it.

Most people fall victim to such thoughts because they are using analogy. This means that they are trying to understand Bitcoin by comparing it to company shares and fiat money. It's nothing like that. Companies rarely have a chance to change the balance of power in the world. Cryptocurrencies are something totally new as there has never been something like independent money! There was always an issuer that you could target to weaken its creation.

I suggest you stick to your position, do not listen to what others say, even if it is your family. you are better understanding the field, if it is profitable for you I suggest that commitment with your investment.
I see today more and more potential that can make bitcoin value will continue to rise, among others is the increasing number of investors.

i think after hardfork bitcoin price can down
maybe can down to reach 4000 dollar/bitcoin, wait and see

Thanks for the positive comments gives me a little more reassurance now  ;D
I Will hold tight and ride though all this!! May do some selling and buy back again when it dips ect...

Thanks!!

It might be a bubble; it might be waiting to pop; but nobody knows when it will pop. It could pop at $8k or it could pop at $80k. Can you afford to take that risk and not be part of the rally. This is the fear of missing out at work.

What will be the behavior of bitcoin in the future, nobody knows. I doubt that this year we will see the price is $ 8,000 but the price will continue to grow that's for sure. Those people who think that bitcoin is a bubble are right to think so but bubble bitcoin is only when it will burst. Up to this point is a very beneficial investment asset.

Yup it's a bubble but a long one im sure there will be few price correction but the price will remain stable unfortunately the current price is stable and it is supported by the hardfork and going up because of it because of the hype that bitcoin will rise after the fork is surely will happen because the users has chosen bitcoin over BTG it will be another airdrop and free money for everybody just like what happened to Bitcoin cash. Bitcoin will surely reach news heights after this. It is best to hold bitcoin for now.

what people who call bitcoin a bubble neglect to also mention is the fact that bubble doesn't have to be too huge and "pop" doesn't mean price going down to dumb low numbers.

a bubble can also be a small one. be as big as $500-$1000 and the pop can be small consequently. meaning a $500-$1000 drop for example and call it a "pop" and back to normal

If that's what you think then please enlighten us why it is so. If it's a bubble then it has to be based on some false assumptions. What are those? That Bitcoin can't be used as a store of value that is easy to hide and move around and gives you access from various electronic devices? That it can't be used as a payment system?
When a bubble pops it goes to 0 or very close to it. People realize it's worthless. Bitcoin isn't!

It's quite high and if the fork is good upgrade for blockchain technology then we could see new paradigm of bitcoin market capitalism. That's what make up the bitcoin price and this time it could reach more than 10K really. But if doesn't go as planned then I'm sure we are going down to 3k to 4.5k again. It's all upto people how they look at the fork and don't go panic selling. Hopefully.

About sketchoin so skeptics respond only because bitcoin and crypto-currency in general is a completely new concept for us. We live in an era of digital technology, and the emergence of e-currency is logical. I believe that bitcoin has a great future and he will bring in income after many years. But if in doubt, you do not need to invest all your money in bitcoin. And even if something happens to him and your money is gone - you do not need to get upset. But if everything goes as well as now, you have a very real chance to get rich with even one bitcoin.

People love to hate Bitcoin, they  always have. They will also regret it oneway when btc is $100k.

The example you put out is interesting. Bitcoin can be said to be a bubble, but as it grows, the bigger it gets, the bigger and thicker the bubble will be, the more I can tolerate the pressure of the economy. Bitcoin has existed for nearly ten years and there is no reason for it to disappear like a broken bubble

not every rise is a bubble, waiting to pop! not every rise is a pump, nor every drop is a dump.

there are times where price goes up fast and with people fearing to miss out (FOMO) on something like the BTG airdrops. but there are also times that bitcoin is being added to real legal forex exchanges or with forex brokers and people who never knew about bitcoin shift their money into it.

I think Bitcoin will drop after the forks, but only temporarily. Long term it will continue to go up - it's a safer store of value than 'real' currency which is continually being printed.

I think bitcoin will cost 20 000$ and more..... But not now. At the moment the price is too high and bitcoin will fall to 4000$

The increase in price to 6000 is due to the fork coming in November so that they can get free BTG for the ratio of 1:1.  It is like extra free money on top of keeping your BTC.  You can invest in BTC as after the fork, you can sell your newly generated BTG on the market!

maybe it is or maybe it is not. that part is hard to tell.

but i am more interested in knowing why you (and some others like you) are always surprised about bitcoin price!
i mean have you even looked at bitcoin supply, ever? there are about 16.5 million coins mined. they speculate about 1-1.5 million belongs to Satoshi. and there are lost coins for many different reasons. that is about 2.5 million gone.
that leaves us with 14 million coins only. with all the recent media attention and the performance of bitcoin there is a lot more than 14 million people investing in bitcoin, even if every one buys 1 bitcoin, price goes to the moon. much more than $8000!

and that is not even taking into consideration big players like JP Morgan guys and Goldman Sachs,.... who have been investing in bitcoin this year.

it's hard to give certainty and price speculation that's right for bitcoin, personally I believe bitcoin prices will find a stable price and after that will slowly rise again, bitcoin will always rise in price when viewed from the stage every year, and to reach the price $ 8000 for the end of this year hopefully can be achieved.

Safe if the price hold. But if not, you'll be losing money quicker than you'd expect. Bitcoin is a great value keeper as of these moments since the price only keeps on increasing day by day. The real question is will it hold? Until when? These insane price increases also makes me question whether bitcoin is another bubble or not. Supply and demand cannot answer these questions alone, and basic economics tells me that something isn't right about these rapid increases.

the price of bitcoin, of course will not grow infinitely. The law of overflowing liquids in containers has not yet been canceled. Bitcoin will destroy some overvalued fiat currencies and financial instruments, but not all. Once the equilibrium is established, at which the price of bitcoin is stabilized. But for the present it is far away.
The problem is that bitcoin, like any other sophisticated high technology, is very vulnerable to the attack of intruders, especially against the actions of hostile states. When bitcoin begins to have a serious impact on the markets, we will immediately see all these hostile actions. For the present there are none, but it is already close. We must prepare.

No one surely knows what will happen in the future. It all about predictions and stuff. But I think right now, with bitcoin's popularity over people and big companies, it will surely maintain its pace to reach a big amount. Well, I think there will be a limit to how much it will achieve but lets just hope that bitcoin will not pop in the future. Yes, it really has a future so I hope that it will not drop to 3 thousands or so after the forks. Goodluck bitcoin!

Same thing they said when BTC was 30 cents...let them keep talking while we keep earning :)

I also think that bitcoin will hit 10k soon. Experts have already said that Bitcoin will hit 50k in the future. I always thought that this will be it. I think that it will will be around 50k dollars.

Don't forget that bitcoin is also unstable so if its 10k worth in the future. It can also go down to 5k dollars.

no one cant predict exactly bitcoin price soon, but i read some analyst, bitcoin will go 10k USD at end year. keep update about crytpo if you very seriously invest in bitcoin or othe  coin.

Of course it's a bubble. But these bubbles keep getting popped, then blown bigger. Long term - just HODL. It's that simple.

If this is your question, then I don't think you should get into it at all. In my opinion it also means that you should do some more research about bitcoin and it's potencial, because you are not seeing it right.

Peter Schiff is an expert in gold, and he is against bitcoin because he says that unlike gold, bitcoin has no inherent value. If he was correct, then yes, bitcoin would be a bubble, because people would get in it because the price is rising. Once it stopped rising or started falling, everyone would sell and we would have a crash. The thing is, he is wrong. Bitcoin has value, and although we hear a lot of people advocating and explaining it's value, either here in the forum, or in many other specialized sources of information, most people still get into crypto for JUST fast profit.

I know one country that understands the value of bitcoin. And that country is Venezuela, and we should really try to learn from them. Their economy has crashed, and where are they turning to in order to survive? To bitcoin. That's the value of this amazing technology. It gives the power back to the people, and protects them from that minority that is supposed to aid them, but instead, destroys their lives because they were in politics for power and profit, and didn't really care about them.

Bitcoin is a big step in evolution of money. In fact it's a big step in the evolution of Society itself. Banks were kings, and of course they will continue to be, but now they have some competition, and we, the "common" folks have bitcoin as protection from their bad decisions. The system can become more just with bitcoin, and we all need to understand the opportunity we have here, and not waste it because of our greed. If everyone continues to get into bitcoin for it's price, then it will be a bubble and it will burst, and we all have missed an amazing opportunity to evolve into a more fair society.

So please don't ask how bitcoin will pop. Try to understand it, so you can then teach others what the purpose of BTC is.
If you do that, it wont be a bubble, it will never pop, it will get real use, and it's price will of course be huge, because it's scarce and everyone want's it.

its always been a bubble that will keep bubbling every explosion. once it gets dumped soon price may drop to 4k but will also rise up more than the previous ATH. its always going to do the higher highs which is why bitcoin is more than gold. sooner its going to be more than 10k. so its not yet too late to buy BTC.

learning and understanding those things that happen to this bubble i think you will make your own perception whether it is a bubble or a real deal that you will be able to gain a lot, bitcoin always surprises those fuders which always got their bad side of this investment, but for those who already learned and already open their minds for sure they will treat this system as a gift.

We have this this countless times already so I don't think that we are in a bubble. This questions have bee raised so many times, this year alone most people said that bitcoin is a bubble when Japan enter the market and push the price to new levels like $1K a day, touching new ATH every day. At that point we really don't know if we are a bubble. So its really hard to spot what a bubble is, are we in a bubble when we hit $3000?,$5000? and now $6000? This sudden price hike is based of a renewed interest specially in Asian region. Can Japan, South Korea and other Asia countries sustained bitcoin's growth? If we can answer this questions then we can say it bitcoin is a bubble or not.

Yes there is a persistency in increasing in rates and values of bit coin and i think that bit coin provide us a uniform plate form for both male and female similarly because there is no restriction of gender age and other things so bit coin is like a bubble which is becoming pop but needs no long time.

Competency and persistency in you temperament is crucial for getting profit from bitcoin and I also recommend that all the investors should stick to bit coin because bitcoin is the only entity which has promising results and we are observing most of the people who has become very rich after their investment in bit coin.

It is right that all human being don’t know about their future but we can say on the grounds of the previous past of bit coin profitability as well as the present rates of bit coin which is clear indication that bit coin has a promising future for which you will have to take risk of investing your capital in bit coin.

Of course bit coin profitability is very much stable as compare to other crypto currencies in the market I am also of the view that holding of bit coin at this stage will have a satisfactory profit which is definitely dependent upon the financial status of the individual as if you are having very low capital and facing basic problems then wait for your profit will become very difficult. 

honestly that's like saying gold was in a bubble when it was 1% the price of what Bitcoin is now.  Compare the market cap of Gold (or anything, like Bonds) to BTC and you'll see that we are actually early adopters, believe it or not  :o

Bitcoin is not a bubble...many more people are now investing. Even some hedge funds are silently investing their excess cash in bitcoin as can be seen by recent developments.

I couldn't agree more, it is nebver a bubble, it never was and it will never be because people are investing by the day and the demand is on a constant rise. They said the same thing when it reached 4k$, same when it got to 5k$ and now gone past 6k$ and they still think it's a bubble and will burst somewhow? They must be kidding me.

I think in half a year we'll see bitcoin at $10,000. I'm not sure if we'll need to wait until 2022 to hit $25,000. As stated in this article (http://coincodex.com/article/72/wall-street-strategist-claims-his-25000-bitcoin-price-prediction-is-conservative/), it is a really conservative estimate.

I can't clearly say what will happen because trading is clearly unpredictable but in my part, i am expecting that it will continue to pump @8,000USD

Bitcoin is not a bubble .. Bitcoin is the Future  8)
It will cross the 8k line soon

Damn, i cannot even count how many times this topic has been talked about. Not even with the help of both my fingers and toes.
I mean, damn bruh?! This surely has happened so many times already with bitcoin. Price hikes like these are really bound to happen along with its dips(corrections) until bitcoin has been stabilized.
But hey, nothing's sure in the crypto world, so maybe bitcoin dies or lives to be more better after any adversity it faces.
I don't know about you, but i sure am not just gonnna sit around and watch hiatory happening without experiencing it myself.
Im in this ride win or lose and will be staying for a long ride. Don't care about the bumps and cracks along the road. As long it is moving forward.

Either i lose money, and earn experience,
Or hit it bigtime plus the unforgettable journey and more.

The price of bitcoin is going up simply because there is supply and demand and there is an element of hype ,you will understand that if you are watching the market for a long time,i do worry a bit with the sudden surge in price as we might see a dip sometime soon,but not sure when that would be as it is breaking records every month,lets see what happens after the segwit 2x fork.

No one knows if it's going to happen or not but personally, i don't believe it will because this bubble has existed for more than 6 yrs and is always promising.

They said it's a bubble because your family didn't really know what the bitcoin is. Last 2010 people call bitcoin a scam coin, don't invest into it, they just need your money, that is just another money laundering machine and now to the present times where it proves that they were wrong and the price is overflowing and setting another record over the market, they have another vibe into it. A Bubble that pops out and then the value will be zero, what's next people? they will regret it again because they did not invest when the bitcoin is still thousands of dollars.

Quoting the great film of wall street: ''Number one rule of Wall Street. Nobody... and I don't care if you're Warren Buffet or if you're Jimmy Buffet. Nobody knows if a stock is gonna go up, down, sideways or in fucking circles. Least of all, stockbrokers, right?''

A lot of people claim they know the exact price of bitcoin in ''x'' days or when it's going to pop, etc etc. Most of the times they don't even research into that, you can look it up, there is no evidence supporting their statements most of the times.

I dont really care at all on those things being said by those famous traders either on stocks or forex or what field they are good at. When they do make comments on bitcoin they do always say that it is a bubble and they do really say such things like price predictions on a certain span of time.They cant even predict on stock movements how much more on bitcoin? They should do their own business. lol

It is hard to determine the extrinsic value of bitcoin. Other than the electricity and mining equipment costs, there is no other factor that can determine the true value of bitcoin. It does have a limited supply. So it is more a balance between supply and demand and there are lots of speculation in there. That is why it is so volatile.

I also think like your family. Actually it is just a bubble when many investors are trying to buy to hold on to bitcoin gold. After the end of hard fork may value it will fall and the $ 8000 price may not be achieved this year.

I am more interested in knowing why you (and some others like you) are always surprised about bitcoin price!
i mean have you even looked at bitcoin supply, ever? there are about 16.5 million coins mined. they speculate about 1-1.5 million belongs to Satoshi. and there are lost coins for many different reasons. that is about 2.5 million gone.
that leaves us with 14 million coins only. with all the recent media attention and the performance of bitcoin there is a lot more than 14 million people investing in bitcoin, even if every one buys 1 bitcoin, price goes to the moon. much more than $8000!

No one knows, but somehow this is the speculations of every people when bitcoin was struggling to pass $500, $1000, $2000, $3500, $5000. And then what? Their speculations are wrong. Now they are feeling bad for doubting bitcoin. Bitcoin just reached $6k and I think it will be hitting higher ceilings sooner or later. Remember that bitcoin is not just a shitty coin out there, bitcoin has been here for almost a decade.

Right, because hedge funds are investing in bitcoin, it can't be in a bubble.  Solid logic.   <not>

Some people like ^^^ are completely deluded or very ignorant of how markets and bubbles work.  Very few folks call a bubble before it pops, and the price that keeps going up and up is not evidence for bitcoin being in a bubble.  In fact it's the opposite.

Then again, threads like this are filled with so much gibberish that you never know what people are really thinking.   I do hope peeps like the above aren't that stupid.

The pop will come after the second fork in november, so you can ride the bubble until than. I am thinking to move onto altcoins before the second fork and hopefully will have some good profit from this rise. Timing is everything i guess. :)

Hmmm, it does benefit the most are the things we want to get a beauty late in us. Bitcoin is indeed profitable as you say, but one thing that does you should know that bitcoin can give you an advantage because they know and understand how to beat or looking for opportunities in the bitcoin. So this was all indeed must have the intelligence and the right thinking in order to earn a profit.
 

I thin after the fork the rally will continue and may cross 7k mark also if the event happens like last time hard fork where the rally was continued. I do expect the btc to become more stronger after such events and might be we will have a new high again in coming time.

I firmly believe this is not a situation where typical economic occurences like a "bubble" can actually occur.  At least not in a comparable way, especially since bitcoin was coded in such a way to go indefinitely upward- and we are all so used to the laws of inflation as it is built into traditional fiat by default.  Bitcoin can only get more and more  and more pricy, more valuable and any momentary dips in the price or value will not affect the ultimate outcome of the bitcoin phenomenon. 

Cheers.

How many already mentioned and speculated that bitcoin will bubble, bitcoin will go down, bitcoin will disappear, etc etc etc. But where's the Bitcoin now? Still the strongest crypto and it's keeping the high phase despite of many attempts to dump it. Lets just wait, invest what you can and if you have extra and we will benefit on it :)

Probably during or before the fork there would be a big drop. Mark the date on your calendar. At October 25, the fork of bitcoin. In there you can buy big amount of bitcoin for low prices.

A little over 72 hours and the whole house of cards will come down. Yep, Thursday is when we'll see the bubble burst. Then we'll drop to $200, stay there for 6 months (so all you newbies can get in at an early price) before Bitcoin resumes it's journey to the moon.

I'm kidding, of course. There's no way anyone can predict future market movements. All we have is the past to give us an indication of what could happen in the future.

I wouldn't worry too much about what your family and friends say, particularly if they don't own any Bitcoin or haven't been involved in the market. Why do you think their knowledge is deeper than yours on this topic?

Let's pop the bubble. I'm ready to buy in at a much lower price but I fear we will never see such low prices as in the beginning of 2017 anymore. Even with bursting bubbles you will end with a nice profit long term and long term we will see prices like $25.000 or more but if there are bubbles bursting it could take some more years to reach higher prices. Just hodl and relax. And buy more if you ever see much lower prices.

This is not new, every time that bitcoin's price is rising it is already expected that there will be some people or groups of speculators or maybe haters of bitcoin that would say such word a "bubble" ;D and I think many speculations regarding to bitcoin out there that saying a word bubble are made only to start a panic selling do that they can be able to buy at lower price .

No one can really tell what will about to happen in the future as there is no one came from it, so it is only a gut feeling for you if you are investing blindly but there is a price history of Bitcoin that you can take it for your basis in investing into it. 'Bitcoin is a bubble' how many people did already said this line, I think that until the end of time that phrase will not vanish as there is doubters and haters along the way. Decide for yourself if you really want to do this and don't rely too much even in your own family as this is a modern age with a modern technology that most of the modern people can only understand.

Yeah lol I'm pretty sure critics won't stop calling bitcoin a bubble until something else overtakes it. I say let them bark. We're not the ones missing out on anything.

Seriously, no one really knows (including me), whether Bitcoin will push up beyond 8K within the next two remaining months...

Still, many have faiths on BTC and hopefully, it will breach the 8k milestone asap  ;)

PS: There's always some so-called, "Fiat currency experts" that yield BTC is a bubble or hoax - well, just let them say whatever they want, after all, they just need to do some good dramas in front of public  ;D

What's happening now is not a bubled it naturally happens. This is because of the free BTG (Bitcoin Gold) receipt. The bitcoins are fast rising. But when it's finished we expect the drop of bitcoins.

Exactly my thoughts. I've been hearing that bitcoin is a bubble over and over again yet it remains to be strong. Indicators such as the massive surge of price increase and the volatility of bitcoin has suggested that bitcoin is a bubble. True, the price increase has been ridiculous especially for this year but it cannot be said that bitcoin is a bubble.

Also, just because the price goes down a bit, it does not mean that it will fall or the 'bubble' is about to burst. It's normal to experience some price corrections especially after a rise. Bitcoin will experience some dips but in the long run, it's price will just continue to rise.

BTC are subject to bubbles like we all noticed in the last few years, but the bet part of it is the raise right after; after the drop it's the right time to invest, just dont be scared of this drop, keep holding, invest during the drop and wait at the window for the new rise :) We might see a new top for BTC

Just asked at work what they think BTC will be in exactly one year. They thought about 7500$, I think 25.000$. I believe BTC is a bubble but it is just the beginning of the bubble. It will eventually burst (maybe years from now), and run completely out. BTC is not suited for retail, too slow, too expensive (fee). Some other coin, with a technology that can rival the ease and speed of credit cards and cash, will emerge and win the day. When….. now that is the million $ question.

It may be a bubble and no one knows when the bubble will pop. But I feel that this is just the start of the bubble as well and there is a long way to go before something big really happens. Grab the opportunity and follow your guts and feeling. Learn more about it and always aim to make the right decision!

Very cautious about this at the minute, considering the fork.

Having said that, I've been cautious for a while on BTC and have just watched it rise and rise and thought...damn, need to stop this and just jump in.

While you are saying BTC is a bubble, notable US billionaires like Mark Cuban getting richer investing in BTC. https://www.bitcoinmarketinsider.com/mark-cuban-backs-nick-tomainos-20-million-token-fund/

For the next bubble, bitcoin has got too powerful a spread in the world. All states talk about it, people invest money, and people of various social strata, including big politicians and businessmen. Very soon it will function on a par with other currencies. I think that only bizarre skeptics say that the bikoin is a bubble. I see in it a new format of the world economy, convenient, functional, safe, promising.

In my opinion, bitcoin being called a bubble is just part of strategy of the big whales to cause panic selling/FUD for them to be able to buy when the price hits the fucking dip. Most investors are business minded people and they will not let their investments/business to pop like a bubble in just a matter of time. They will always take the opportunity to take profit from the weak hands. We should just ride with the whales and hope for the best to come.

If it comes to the whole ‘’bubble’’ concept... I remember that 1 year ago some people were also talking that it is the bubble and? Actually the value of BTC has increased rapidly! So? HODL ? this is the best strategy for me.

There are probably that before the year end the value of bitcoin will hit 8,000 USD and probably more-than. But many speculation are emerge now that stating bitcoin is bubble and pump up it value. Notice that nowadays bitcoin is constantly moving up and down it's value because bitcoin is unpredictable. And no one can tell what will be happen to bitcoin before the year end.

bubble or not bubble, bitcoin is still growing and trend is bullish.... so I personally hold my btc and not sell them...