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Economy => Economics => Topic started by: JA37 on June 27, 2011, 03:44:23 PM



Title: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: JA37 on June 27, 2011, 03:44:23 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/five-economic-lessons-from-sweden-the-rock-star-of-the-recovery/2011/06/21/AGyuJ3iH_print.html

Interesting, but it does go against the economic theory popular here.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: caveden on June 27, 2011, 04:24:00 PM
Haven't yet read the text but US leftists which use Sweden as example so much should realize this country is, in many senses, much closer from a free-market than the US is, even though it's many miles away.

I've seen many economical freedom indexes ranking these Nordic countries as very easy on regulations, which are much more critical (do more damage) than government spending.
And even when talking about government spending, although true that they rob their subjects insanely, more than the US gov does, it is also true that the government gets to decide what to do with the money less than in most big governments. A considerable amount of the stolen money is just redistributed to the people so they decide how to spend it. For example, instead of using tax money to finance public schools, they give this money to parents so they choose which school to put their children in. I don't know how their socialized health care works, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was in the same line. This is still far from free market, but much closer than the majority of US school systems. Another major point regarding government spending is that they don't finance huge mass murderers military forces, doing multiple wars at a time - this counts a lot. They didn't even join any of the WW as far as I know, what is obviously great for the economy in the long run.

Ah, also, did the article mentioned that the Swedish government did not bailout large corporations like Saab (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/23/world/europe/23saab.html)? Bailing out failing companies is horrible to the recovery.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: AyeYo on June 27, 2011, 05:04:40 PM
It's amazing what you can accomplish when you aren't spending $1.5 trillion/year on pointless wars and you don't have to fight against an ignorant population that thinks your central bank is a illuminati run organization sent by Lucifer to steal souls and rape children.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: HappyFunnyFoo on June 27, 2011, 06:05:08 PM
Clinton handed Bush a HUGE surplus, and Bush readily spent it and then some on pointlessly invading Afghanistan (failed to get biLaden) and Iraq (no WMD? ORLY!), as well as missile defense shields (defend from those... uhm... high tech nuclear missile producing terrorists, ya know), and a massive massive massive dividend tax cut (for the majority of you forum folks out there that don't know what a dividend is (e.g. the guys that are probably mad at me already for making fun of BushmoronJR), it's what rich & smart folks make most of their money from).

Sweden really sets a great example.  Nice article!!


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: shady financier on June 27, 2011, 06:46:51 PM
Clinton handed Bush a HUGE surplus, and Bush readily spent it and then some on pointlessly invading Afghanistan (failed to get biLaden) and Iraq (no WMD? ORLY!), as well as missile defense shields (defend from those... uhm... high tech nuclear missile producing terrorists, ya know), and a massive massive massive dividend tax cut (for the majority of you forum folks out there that don't know what a dividend is (e.g. the guys that are probably mad at me already for making fun of BushmoronJR), it's what rich & smart folks make most of their money from).

Sweden really sets a great example.  Nice article!!


Starve the Beast they call it, dumbasses. Take the pooled resources of the community (the "stolen wealth" libertards refer to because they are idiots) and spunk it all on crap like wars, tax-breaks for the 1-percent and massively-unrealistic weapons systems to point at nations that really don't need to have weapons pointed at them.

This deprives "the beast" of the resources to do useful things it's supposed to do, healthcare, education, infrastructure, income-support etc. You know, useful stuff, the kind of public goods and services that should be the only fucking excuse an agent made of pooled communal resources exists to supply in the first place.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: hugolp on June 27, 2011, 06:59:12 PM
I recomend to some of the poster here to stop insulting to other members of the community.

Regarding the article is a bunch of non-sequiturs. I would appreciate if the op would bring a serious economic analisys and not the economic political propaganda.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: lemonginger on June 27, 2011, 08:29:02 PM
Iceland is a better example. Compare Iceland to the PIIGS. Iceland gave a big fuck you to the banksters while the PIIGS are taking on ever more severe austerity measures. What's the interest rate on Icelandic bonds compared to Portuguese or Irish?


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: Oldminer on June 27, 2011, 08:32:39 PM
Iceland is a better example. Compare Iceland to the PIIGS. Iceland gave a big fuck you to the banksters while the PIIGS are taking on ever more severe austerity measures.

Yea well who could blame them?

It was the banksters that were responsible for Iceland's economic capitulation in the first place lol


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: JA37 on June 27, 2011, 08:41:08 PM
I recomend to some of the poster here to stop insulting to other members of the community.

Regarding the article is a bunch of non-sequiturs. I would appreciate if the op would bring a serious economic analisys and not the economic political propaganda.

Being the OP I apologize that the article doesn't fit your world view. I know how frustrating it must be to find that something you've academically decided doesn't work, actually does in the real world.

People in these forums say "the market will fix it, just leave everything be" and it turns out that the highest performers out there are actually those who DON'T do this.
If I'm not misinformed Lithuania was also a big mess not too long ago, then they employed some strict economic policy and turned everything around, doing quite well now.

If everything in the article are just "non-sequiturs" was it just blind luck that made Sweden come out on top?
Please point out the flaws in the article instead of just dismissing it as propaganda.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: hugolp on June 27, 2011, 08:57:22 PM
Being the OP I apologize that the article doesn't fit your world view. I know how frustrating it must be to find that something you've academically decided doesn't work, actually does in the real world.

People in these forums say "the market will fix it, just leave everything be" and it turns out that the highest performers out there are actually those who DON'T do this.
If I'm not misinformed Lithuania was also a big mess not too long ago, then they employed some strict economic policy and turned everything around, doing quite well now.

If everything in the article are just "non-sequiturs" was it just blind luck that made Sweden come out on top?
Please point out the flaws in the article instead of just dismissing it as propaganda.

Can you try to argue without putting in my mouth words that I did not say? Why do you need to be dishonest? If you are right, you dont need to be dishonest. That you are manipulating and adopting a trolling attitude shows that you are insecure because probably you already know the article does not hold.

I did not say the article is fustrating or that the article "works in real life". What I said is the article is a bunch of non-sequiturs. This article is quite ridiculous. Anyone with a bit of critical thinking capacity can see it. Lets take for example the part on monetary policy. It almost does not explain how this aggressive monetary policy is good. If you take the explanation of the situation and the rethoric out, this is all that is left to explain why this aggresive monetary politcy is good:

Quote
The impact of low rates on the economy, however, are clear.

“Interest rates fell very low, and households had more money available for consumption because their mortgage payments dropped,” said Lena Hagman, chief economist of Almega, an association of major employers in Sweden’s services sector.

First of all, the first sentence is a typical form of propaganda. This is clear. Period. Nothing to discuss here. Is typical rethoric from a cult.

Then you have the typical falacy that lower rates call always create more consumption, and then the even bigger fallacy that more consumption helps the economy (how did that work for Greenspan and Bush?).

Have you consider that the reason why this abuse by the central bank did not have a worse effect and the economy did not suffer too much from it, is that there was no housing bubble in Sweden? No, lets compare a Sweden without a housing bubble with a USA with a housing bubble. Yeah, that makes sense...

How about Germany performance when the ECB wasnt as aggressive as the article suggest a central bank has to be? Oh well, Germany did not have a housing bubble and they are doing good. While Spain also under the ECB policies is doing very bad, and, surprise surprise, they had a housing bubble. So the countries that didnt have a housing bubble are doing a lot better than the countries that had a housing bubble, all with more and less agressive monetary policies. But hey, its the agressive monetary policy, no doubt!

The whole thing is propaganda, and anyone with a bit of critical thiking can see it. But I dont think you want to really discuss the issues, nor the rest of your "budies" want to rationally discuss neither. This thread was just opened for name calling, so you can proceed.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: hugolp on June 27, 2011, 09:07:15 PM
Iceland is a better example. Compare Iceland to the PIIGS. Iceland gave a big fuck you to the banksters while the PIIGS are taking on ever more severe austerity measures. What's the interest rate on Icelandic bonds compared to Portuguese or Irish?

Iceland is the best example of what one should do. Default on the debt and start over again.

The austerity mesures without defaulting on the debt will never ever work, and in reality are condenming Greece to years, maybe even more than a decade, of stagnation. The only objective of the EU is that the bankers get their debt repayed. Its a real shame.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: lemonginger on June 27, 2011, 09:22:43 PM
The austerity mesures without defaulting on the debt will never ever work, and in reality are condenming Greece to years, maybe even more than a decade, of stagnation. The only objective of the EU is that the bankers get their debt repayed. Its a real shame.

Yes, it is just another way in which the international criminal conglomerate of corporate/state interests can make the average person continue to "suck it up" and "sacrifice" while they laugh all the way to the bank (that they own and run).


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: JA37 on June 27, 2011, 09:55:04 PM
Can you try to argue without putting in my mouth words that I did not say? Why do you need to be dishonest? If you are right, you dont need to be dishonest. That you are manipulating and adopting a trolling attitude shows that you are insecure because probably you already know the article does not hold.

I did not say the article is fustrating or that the article "works in real life". What I said is the article is a bunch of non-sequiturs. This article is quite ridiculous. Anyone with a bit of critical thinking capacity can see it. Lets take for example the part on monetary policy. It almost does not explain how this aggressive monetary policy is good. If you take the explanation of the situation and the rethoric out, this is all that is left to explain why this aggresive monetary politcy is good:

Quote
The impact of low rates on the economy, however, are clear.

“Interest rates fell very low, and households had more money available for consumption because their mortgage payments dropped,” said Lena Hagman, chief economist of Almega, an association of major employers in Sweden’s services sector.

First of all, the first sentence is a typical form of propaganda. This is clear. Period. Nothing to discuss here. Is typical rethoric from a cult.

Then you have the typical falacy that lower rates call always create more consumption, and then the even bigger fallacy that more consumption helps the economy (how did that work for Greenspan and Bush?).

Have you consider that the reason why this abuse by the central bank did not have a worse effect and the economy did not suffer too much from it, is that there was no housing bubble in Sweden? No, lets compare a Sweden without a housing bubble with a USA with a housing bubble. Yeah, that makes sense...

How about Germany performance when the ECB wasnt as aggressive as the article suggest a central bank has to be? Oh well, Germany did not have a housing bubble and they are doing good. While Spain also under the ECB policies is doing very bad, and, surprise surprise, they had a housing bubble. So the countries that didnt have a housing bubble are doing a lot better than the countries that had a housing bubble, all with more and less agressive monetary policies. But hey, its the agressive monetary policy, no doubt!

The whole thing is propaganda, and anyone with a bit of critical thiking can see it. But I dont think you want to really discuss the issues, nor the rest of your "budies" want to rationally discuss neither. This thread was just opened for name calling, so you can proceed.

Quite a long answer. I'm honoured. I don't mean to put words in your mouth. I just thought I could sense a little bit of frustration in your reply, if that was wrong, I apologize. And yes, the response was written a bit 'tongue in cheek', I didn't mean to be trollish though.

Now, if I extend such courtesy to you, perhaps you could do the same and refrain from statements such as "anyone with a bit of critical thinking capacity can see" which clearly implies that anyone who doesn't agree with you lacks such capacity.

Why do you only focus on one of the points mentioned?
But OK, let's talk about that one point.
What's so controversial about mentioning that lower rates gave households more money to spend? It generally does. Was it all spent? I don't know. Some of it probably was. And why wouldn't consumption help the economy?
I don't know enough about Greenspan/Bush to address that, but feel free to enlighten me.
And I don't agree with you assertion that "the first sentence is a typical form of propaganda. This is clear. Period. Nothing to discuss here. Is typical rethoric from a cult" at all. If you want to make that assertion, do so with facts and not some hand-waving and "everybody knows this".

I agree that the housing bubble is a problem. It's the same in Ireland afaik. There was a housing bubble in Sweden in the 1990s (google it) and from what I've read they recovered quite fast from that too.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2008-04-01-sweden-financial-crisis_N.htm
http://www.businesspundit.com/10-of-the-worlds-most-dramatic-financial-crises-and-their-lessons/
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-04-02/us/japan.sweden_1_japanese-banks-interest-rates-resona-bank?_s=PM:US
I don't recall if these were the exact articles, but I'd imagine they say pretty much the same thing.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: carlerha on June 27, 2011, 10:09:59 PM
I'm from scandinavia and I really don't give a shit whether we managed to stand upright through the financial crisis or not. We're getting less free every year with increasing privacy intrusions and ever increasing taxes to fund the paychecks of a growing state-employed & political elite. Sorry to disappoint any leftists "looking to norway and sweden", but this is just not working out at a base human level. The only thing I can appreciate about living in a humongous welfare state is that going Galt is pretty damn comforting!


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: JA37 on June 27, 2011, 10:22:02 PM
I'm from scandinavia and I really don't give a shit whether we managed to stand upright through the financial crisis or not. We're getting less free every year with increasing privacy intrusions and ever increasing taxes to fund the paychecks of a growing state-employed & political elite. Sorry to disappoint any leftists "looking to norway and sweden", but this is just not working out at a base human level. The only thing I can appreciate about living in a humongous welfare state is that going Galt is pretty damn comforting!

I have no idea what "going Galt" means. Apart from that what was mentioned in the article was that Sweden has done quite well recovering. They have done so by "meddling" in the market, which goes against the Austrian school which many here subscribe to. I found that interesting and thought I'd get some comments on that. I'm sorry you feel less free. Where would you rather be? Are there other places that you feel "work out" better at a base human level.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: onesalt on June 27, 2011, 10:33:37 PM
I recomend to some of the poster here to stop insulting to other members of the community.

Regarding the article is a bunch of non-sequiturs. I would appreciate if the op would bring a serious economic analisys and not the economic political propaganda.

I would advise you to give a point by point refutation of why the points made in the article aren't valid and not to just dismiss things out of hand becuase you say it's "propaganda".


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: shady financier on June 27, 2011, 10:57:53 PM
Iceland is a better example. Compare Iceland to the PIIGS. Iceland gave a big fuck you to the banksters while the PIIGS are taking on ever more severe austerity measures. What's the interest rate on Icelandic bonds compared to Portuguese or Irish?

Iceland is the best example of what one should do. Default on the debt and start over again.

The austerity mesures without defaulting on the debt will never ever work, and in reality are condenming Greece to years, maybe even more than a decade, of stagnation. The only objective of the EU is that the bankers get their debt repayed. Its a real shame.

With this I agree.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: carlerha on June 27, 2011, 11:04:30 PM
I'm from scandinavia and I really don't give a shit whether we managed to stand upright through the financial crisis or not. We're getting less free every year with increasing privacy intrusions and ever increasing taxes to fund the paychecks of a growing state-employed & political elite. Sorry to disappoint any leftists "looking to norway and sweden", but this is just not working out at a base human level. The only thing I can appreciate about living in a humongous welfare state is that going Galt is pretty damn comforting!

I have no idea what "going Galt" means. Apart from that what was mentioned in the article was that Sweden has done quite well recovering. They have done so by "meddling" in the market, which goes against the Austrian school which many here subscribe to. I found that interesting and thought I'd get some comments on that. I'm sorry you feel less free. Where would you rather be? Are there other places that you feel "work out" better at a base human level.
I suddenly realized that my rant may have been perceived as an attack on you for posting the article, which of course is not the case, thank's for posting. I'm just tired of seeing propaganda (e.g. on the UN best of lists) that the scandinavian socialism is so good, when in fact close to 80% of a typical person's income goes into taxes in some way or another, and one have to settle for whatever the government hands back to you. This way, wealth is distributed somewhat evenly; however, it's at the point of a gun, and the collectivists aren't satisfied with people's money, they want to control our lives as well with very intrusive regulations in the private sphere. The numbers usually only show statistics about material wealth – not happiness and quality of life.

Going Galt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Galt#Cultural_significance


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: cunicula on June 27, 2011, 11:14:50 PM
I recomend to some of the poster here to stop insulting to other members of the community.

3 posts later...

This is clear. Period. Nothing to discuss here. Is typical rethoric from a cult.

Hmmm... Hard to have a low enough opinion of hypocrites like this.

Proposed Options for you, 'hugolp':

a) Cite empirical evidence published in peer-reviewed journals
b) GTFO, Bitch!


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: MatthewLM on June 27, 2011, 11:20:20 PM
"Growth" is usually measured in nominal GDP per capita right?

Well all governments need to do is print loads of money and see the GDP rise loads and the economy get worse.

Of-course that is never the only variable.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: Jack of Diamonds on June 28, 2011, 01:00:04 AM
ever increasing taxes to fund the paychecks of a growing state-employed & political elite. Sorry to disappoint any leftists "looking to norway and sweden", but this is just not working out at a base human level

I've dug into this subject. In the name of forced gender equality, Nordic countries are employing nearly all working age females in state-run jobs that do not necessarily produce anything of value, but full salaries are paid out from taxes  (= people who do real work in private businesses)

These include nominal desk jobs, bureaucrats, various do-nothing organizations, 'social consultants' etc.
(But also some vital jobs such as healthcare and teaching, still state-funded nonetheless)

In that sense, the American system is superior. Sure, there's the "rotten elite" who get paid for nothing. But for the average Joe (or Joanne), nope. They only get paid according to what they can do and produce.

There's no secure desk job answering a phone and filing some papers for a 20-something who finds him/herself unable to find any meaningful work in the private sector.
There's no reward for deciding you don't want to take part in work life & fund your kids life through the state and life a relatively rich life (compared to single parents or small households in other countries of the world).

It's as if, in your countries, the state is just an arbitrary substitute for a husband.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 28, 2011, 01:40:14 AM
Quote
I've dug into this subject. In the name of forced gender equality, Nordic countries are employing nearly all working age females in state-run jobs that do not necessarily produce anything of value, but full salaries are paid out from taxes  (= people who do real work in private businesses)

Nothing scarier than blondes who earn the same as you ....


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: byronbb on June 28, 2011, 02:06:52 AM
Remember when Ireland was lauded for taking on the Scandinavian model?


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: Anonymous on June 28, 2011, 04:03:58 AM
I'm from scandinavia and I really don't give a shit whether we managed to stand upright through the financial crisis or not. We're getting less free every year with increasing privacy intrusions and ever increasing taxes to fund the paychecks of a growing state-employed & political elite. Sorry to disappoint any leftists "looking to norway and sweden", but this is just not working out at a base human level. The only thing I can appreciate about living in a humongous welfare state is that going Galt is pretty damn comforting!

I have no idea what "going Galt" means. Apart from that what was mentioned in the article was that Sweden has done quite well recovering. They have done so by "meddling" in the market, which goes against the Austrian school which many here subscribe to. I found that interesting and thought I'd get some comments on that. I'm sorry you feel less free. Where would you rather be? Are there other places that you feel "work out" better at a base human level.
I suddenly realized that my rant may have been perceived as an attack on you for posting the article, which of course is not the case, thank's for posting. I'm just tired of seeing propaganda (e.g. on the UN best of lists) that the scandinavian socialism is so good, when in fact close to 80% of a typical person's income goes into taxes in some way or another, and one have to settle for whatever the government hands back to you. This way, wealth is distributed somewhat evenly; however, it's at the point of a gun, and the collectivists aren't satisfied with people's money, they want to control our lives as well with very intrusive regulations in the private sphere. The numbers usually only show statistics about material wealth – not happiness and quality of life.

Going Galt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Galt#Cultural_significance

Well, this pretty much settles this thread.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: hugolp on June 28, 2011, 04:42:03 AM
Quite a long answer. I'm honoured.

Why would anyone answer with a long answer to a thread were basically some nicknames have gathered together at the same time to throw some insults using a propaganda article?

Specially when I lost my time writting a critique post about Keynesianism to one of those nicknames in another thread just to discover that person has no idea about keynesianism, takes it as faith, and was not only unable to answer (which is fine, not everybody has to be an expert on economics) but decided to ignore my post and go in a nonsense rant as if he knew what he was talking about. Am I supposed to take this kind of behaviour seriously? Am I supposed to keep loosing my time?

Quote
Why do you only focus on one of the points mentioned?

Why not? Criticizing the whole thing would be a endless task. If you are willing to pay me I can write the whole critique.

Quote
But OK, let's talk about that one point.
What's so controversial about mentioning that lower rates gave households more money to spend? It generally does.

"It generally does": So basically you are acknowledging my point that it not always does.

Quote
Was it all spent? I don't know. Some of it probably was. And why wouldn't consumption help the economy?

How did consumption in housing "help" the economy in the USA, Ireland or Spain? What type of consumption has happened in Sweden? Is it sustainable or only a small bubble created by the central bank? Will the capital created by the entrepreneurs due to the signals produced by that consumption be productive in the future? Or will it be waste because that artificial consumption will desappear when the artificial conditions are not there?

Consumption is not an abstract blob of data. Consumption means that the people has consumed some specific types of products.

Quote
I don't know enough about Greenspan/Bush to address that, but feel free to enlighten me.

Greenspan kept lowering the rates at any sign of economic downturn, to "stimulate" the economy. He create the housing bubble.

Quote
I agree that the housing bubble is a problem. It's the same in Ireland afaik. There was a housing bubble in Sweden in the 1990s (google it) and from what I've read they recovered quite fast from that too.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2008-04-01-sweden-financial-crisis_N.htm
http://www.businesspundit.com/10-of-the-worlds-most-dramatic-financial-crises-and-their-lessons/
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-04-02/us/japan.sweden_1_japanese-banks-interest-rates-resona-bank?_s=PM:US
I don't recall if these were the exact articles, but I'd imagine they say pretty much the same thing.

Yes, I like a lot the example of Sweden in the 90's and how they handled their housing bubble. You know why? Because they liquidated their debt. No need for massive increase of government spending in the economy (wrongly called "stimulous"), just liquidate the debt.

Basically, the way these kind of things are solved in a free market is by letting companies go bankrupt. The debt is liquidated and the remaining assets can be realocated. But because Sweden (and any modern occidental country) has a comletely regulated banking system that allows the banks to overextend credit way beyond what the free market would allow, this solution would be very painful (quick and effective, but very painful). Therefore the government took care of the mess it had created. And honestly I have to say is one of the more responsable actions by a government I have ever seen. They basically said they would not pay for the banks debt, so basically the debtors lost it, and also liquidated the position of the shareholders. They only went in to save the money of the depositors. Once it was done they sold the banks back to private owners to recover as much money as they could.

The key here is that they liquidated the debt, so the economy could start over.

Realize that both lowering interest rates and massive government spending goes into the other way. It tries to keep the debt obligations being payed by devaluation of the currency. Its a slow default, so its a slow recovery. Liquidating the debt in a quick default allows for a quick recovery.

Also, its worth noticing that by lowering interest rates and government spending (the keynesian solution) you are helping banks and the politically connected while hurting the poor. Instead, by defaulting on the debt you are hurting the banks and the investors. This is the reason why the keynesian solution is almost always the choosen one.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: hugolp on June 28, 2011, 04:42:46 AM
I recomend to some of the poster here to stop insulting to other members of the community.

3 posts later...

This is clear. Period. Nothing to discuss here. Is typical rethoric from a cult.

Hmmm... Hard to have a low enough opinion of hypocrites like this.

Proposed Options for you, 'hugolp':

a) Cite empirical evidence published in peer-reviewed journals
b) GTFO, Bitch!

Im quoting this here so anyone can see how ridiculous you are.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: cunicula on June 28, 2011, 04:53:22 AM
You tell people not to engage in name-calling, but your arguments reduce to
a) name-calling
b) labelling information you disagree with propaganda.

Say something that can be falsified, or crawl back in your hole, [edited, no insults, this is the first warning]



Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: hugolp on June 28, 2011, 04:55:36 AM
You tell people not to engage in name-calling, but your arguments reduce to
a) name-calling
b) labelling information you disagree with propaganda.

Say something that can be falsified, or crawl back in your hole, [edited, no insults, this is the first warning]

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=23242.msg295321#msg295321


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: blogospheroid on June 28, 2011, 06:10:36 AM
Responsible behaviour,  by anyone, anywhere, is welcome. Sweden's government behaved responsibly. That is good.

In the crypto-currency world, almost all government fiat would lose value unless maintained in a very nice equilibrium with the leading currency ( I can't say that it would be bitcoin). But if a government  devalues its currency, then people will become very wary of holding that currency in the future. Swedish Kroner is surviving because the swedish accept it. If that faith is broken, who knows?

The financial crisis might not have happened in the crypto currency world because very few very large bets would have been taken on any sector.

I'm not saying that there will be no big bubbles in the future - life extension and space are two very prominent technological frontiers on which most people don't know anything.  There will be bubbles, but there may not be an extensive financial crisis.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: The Script on June 28, 2011, 06:25:29 AM
Hugolp, I agree with your posts and am on the same "team" so-to-speak, but aren't you getting a little heavy handed with your moderation here? The OP, at least, has not engaged in any sort of behavior that anyone and everyone else on this forum regularly engages in. Also, cunicula was at least partially justified in asking for specific refutations rather than hand-waving (refutation which you did provide several posts above).


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: caveden on June 28, 2011, 07:48:04 AM
Iceland is a better example. Compare Iceland to the PIIGS. Iceland gave a big fuck you to the banksters while the PIIGS are taking on ever more severe austerity measures. What's the interest rate on Icelandic bonds compared to Portuguese or Irish?

Iceland is the best example of what one should do. Default on the debt and start over again.

That's only true if you mean what was done after the crisis, not what was being done before.

Although quite laissez-faire in many aspects, Iceland had an insane central bank, printing much more money than US Fed. The M1 yearly growth rate has touched 90% in 2007. The average was between 20% and 30% from 2002 to 2007. An immense increase of credit through money pumping. No wonder the crisis hit them so hard. For a more complete reading: http://mises.org/daily/3499


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: smellyBobby on June 28, 2011, 07:53:41 AM
Hugolp, I agree with your posts and am on the same "team" so-to-speak, but aren't you getting a little heavy handed with your moderation here? The OP, at least, has not engaged in any sort of behavior that anyone and everyone else on this forum regularly engages in. Also, cunicula was at least partially justified in asking for specific refutations rather than hand-waving (refutation which you did provide several posts above).

+1


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: hugolp on June 28, 2011, 10:40:28 AM
Hugolp, I agree with your posts and am on the same "team" so-to-speak, but aren't you getting a little heavy handed with your moderation here? The OP, at least, has not engaged in any sort of behavior that anyone and everyone else on this forum regularly engages in. Also, cunicula was at least partially justified in asking for specific refutations rather than hand-waving (refutation which you did provide several posts above).

I have not removed any post on this thread. Not one. The only act of moderation that I have done in this thread is to remove 1 word (only 1 word) that was an insult. The text that I have added instead of the insult is very similar to the text that I have added when removing insults in other threads. I have allowed all kind of vocabullary, like libertards and similars, I have only removed 1 direct insult.

I dont know if you are getting the impression that I have removed some post or something. I have not. I have only removed 1 word, that was an insult. Thats all. Do you still consider its heavy handed moderation?

Maybe I should post my opinions from a different account so as not to give the impression that I am bullying.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: shady financier on June 28, 2011, 12:55:06 PM
Also, its worth noticing that by lowering interest rates and government spending (the keynesian solution) you are helping banks and the politically connected while hurting the poor. Instead, by defaulting on the debt you are hurting the banks and the investors. This is the reason why the keynesian solution is almost always the choosen one.

Savers and investors are two sides of the same coin... well, at least they were when banks did their job instead of playing the casino thanks to deregulation.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: hugolp on June 28, 2011, 01:06:36 PM
Savers and investors are two sides of the same coin... well, at least they were when banks did their job instead of playing the casino thanks to deregulation.

In spite of what the oficial propaganda says, the regulation in the USA has increased in each of the last decades.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: The Script on June 29, 2011, 07:23:33 AM
I recomend to some of the poster here to stop insulting to other members of the community.

Regarding the article is a bunch of non-sequiturs. I would appreciate if the op would bring a serious economic analisys and not the economic political propaganda.

Hugolp, thanks for responding to my criticism. It boosts my opinion of you as a moderator. I agree with you that insults are counter-productive but I see people of the libertarian and anarcho-capitalism persuasion making insults and moderators don't say anything. While I disagree with the above posters, and their methods, I will defend their right to express their opinions. And I while I don't know what the word was that you deleted, it can't be any worse than the things that are normally said on the forum. However, I realize it is your prerogative as a moderator and I respect that. I just encourage you to make sure you treat everyone the same even if you disagree with them.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: hugolp on June 29, 2011, 07:50:38 AM
I recomend to some of the poster here to stop insulting to other members of the community.

Regarding the article is a bunch of non-sequiturs. I would appreciate if the op would bring a serious economic analisys and not the economic political propaganda.

Hugolp, thanks for responding to my criticism. It boosts my opinion of you as a moderator. I agree with you that insults are counter-productive but I see people of the libertarian and anarcho-capitalism persuasion making insults and moderators don't say anything. While I disagree with the above posters, and their methods, I will defend their right to express their opinions. And I while I don't know what the word was that you deleted, it can't be any worse than the things that are normally said on the forum. However, I realize it is your prerogative as a moderator and I respect that. I just encourage you to make sure you treat everyone the same even if you disagree with them.

Of course anyone can express their own opinion. I dont think there is any doubt on that.

Regarding the moderation of insults, I (or the other moderators) can not be everywhere. The forum has grown big and I can not read everything that it is posted. Insult that I see, insult I remove. That is all I can do. Keep in mind I am a volunteer, Im not getting payed for this.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: The Script on June 29, 2011, 08:00:30 AM

Hugolp, thanks for responding to my criticism. It boosts my opinion of you as a moderator. I agree with you that insults are counter-productive but I see people of the libertarian and anarcho-capitalism persuasion making insults and moderators don't say anything. While I disagree with the above posters, and their methods, I will defend their right to express their opinions. And I while I don't know what the word was that you deleted, it can't be any worse than the things that are normally said on the forum. However, I realize it is your prerogative as a moderator and I respect that. I just encourage you to make sure you treat everyone the same even if you disagree with them.

Of course anyone can express their own opinion. I dont think there is any doubt on that.

Regarding the moderation of insults, I (or the other moderators) can not be everywhere. The forum has grown big and I can not read everything that it is posted. Insult that I see, insult I remove. That is all I can do. Keep in mind I am a volunteer, Im not getting payed for this.
[/quote]

Fair enough. This is the first time I had seen an insult deleted, but I also cannot be everywhere on the forums so that doesn't mean it's the only one that has been removed. You do what you can, I do understand that. Thanks again for caring enough to respond, I appreciate it.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: JA37 on June 29, 2011, 09:07:13 AM
I agree that insults are counter productive and I don't think I've ever insulted anyone on this forum. Not intentionally anyway. I might write things tongue in cheek sometimes though, which I assume some could find provocative, but the goal is never to insult.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: LokeRundt on June 29, 2011, 09:25:50 AM
The only thing I can appreciate about living in a humongous welfare state is that going Galt is pretty damn comforting!

"Going Galt"

Seems like it would go well in  a poem with "De gale har det godt"

I'm just learning Norsk now, and I'm worthless with the poetry scheming in this language.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: AyeYo on June 29, 2011, 03:22:46 PM
Savers and investors are two sides of the same coin... well, at least they were when banks did their job instead of playing the casino thanks to deregulation.

In spite of what the oficial propaganda says, the regulation in the USA has increased in each of the last decades.


Citation required.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: hugolp on June 29, 2011, 03:46:51 PM
Savers and investors are two sides of the same coin... well, at least they were when banks did their job instead of playing the casino thanks to deregulation.

In spite of what the oficial propaganda says, the regulation in the USA has increased in each of the last decades.


Citation required.

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/1443/tumblrl380skhaal1qap3vj.jpg


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: AyeYo on June 29, 2011, 03:51:52 PM
Savers and investors are two sides of the same coin... well, at least they were when banks did their job instead of playing the casino thanks to deregulation.

In spite of what the oficial propaganda says, the regulation in the USA has increased in each of the last decades.


Citation required.

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/1443/tumblrl380skhaal1qap3vj.jpg


That doesn't mean a damn thing.  They could have increased the font size. ::)

I want you to list some actual regulation increase milestones.  If you can't do that then I'm going to start listing repeals of major regulations over the last decade and make you look like a fool.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: hugolp on June 29, 2011, 07:56:54 PM


That doesn't mean a damn thing.  They could have increased the font size. ::)

I want you to list some actual regulation increase milestones.  If you can't do that then I'm going to start listing repeals of major regulations over the last decade and make you look like a fool.

Stop acting dumb because you are not dumb. Regulations have changed, some have been added some have gone. But the net result has been an increase of regulations. That is a fact. You can try to deny reality but that is not my problem.

Btw, during the Bush era there has been an increase of the money handled by regulators. So its not only an increase of the amount of the reuglations but also an increase of the monetary impact of those regulations.

I know a lot of so called "economists" and the official propaganda says that there has been de-regulation, and they use it as explanation for everything, but if you look at the data you can see that there has been an increase of regulations.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: The Script on June 30, 2011, 01:17:02 AM
Savers and investors are two sides of the same coin... well, at least they were when banks did their job instead of playing the casino thanks to deregulation.

In spite of what the oficial propaganda says, the regulation in the USA has increased in each of the last decades.


Citation required.

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/1443/tumblrl380skhaal1qap3vj.jpg


That doesn't mean a damn thing.  They could have increased the font size. ::)

You think they increased the font by a factor of seven?  :P

This was a quick google search because I have to go to the gym to meet a friend, but looks like the number of regulators has doubled since the 70s.  That is a significant increase, no?  I suppose they could all be sitting around doing nothing and not actually writing regulations, but I think you would have to admit the reason to have more regulators is to write and manage more regulations.  Right?


http://www.truthfulpolitics.com/http:/truthfulpolitics.com/comments/u-s-federal-government-employee-and-regulation-growth/


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: AyeYo on July 01, 2011, 12:52:31 PM


That doesn't mean a damn thing.  They could have increased the font size. ::)

I want you to list some actual regulation increase milestones.  If you can't do that then I'm going to start listing repeals of major regulations over the last decade and make you look like a fool.

Stop acting dumb because you are not dumb. Regulations have changed, some have been added some have gone. But the net result has been an increase of regulations. That is a fact. You can try to deny reality but that is not my problem.

Btw, during the Bush era there has been an increase of the money handled by regulators. So its not only an increase of the amount of the reuglations but also an increase of the monetary impact of those regulations.

I know a lot of so called "economists" and the official propaganda says that there has been de-regulation, and they use it as explanation for everything, but if you look at the data you can see that there has been an increase of regulations.


Show me the numbers.  This refrain will always remain the same with regards to your baseless statements.  Show me the numbers or you have no point.  Insulting me and telling me I'm denying reality is NOT proving your point for you.  Show me the numbers.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: JA37 on July 01, 2011, 01:42:30 PM
Do you think regulations in Sweden has gone down and that is the key to their success recovery? Or do you expect the same development in Sweden as in the US? I'm guessing that regulations are increasing everywhere in the world, due to the fact that the world is becoming more and more complex.
And there's also the key of where the regulations have been expanded. I know that regulations wrt Pharma has increased to prevent abuse, and regulations in automotive has increased due to environmental concerns and safety.
I'm not sure the increase in regulation is the culprit here.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: CNMOH on July 01, 2011, 02:25:09 PM
I'm just tired of seeing propaganda (e.g. on the UN best of lists) that the scandinavian socialism is so good, when in fact close to 80% of a typical person's income goes into taxes in some way or another, and one have to settle for whatever the government hands back to you.
The typical Swede does not pay 80% in taxes. The typical Swede pays 25-30% in taxes.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: niemivh on July 01, 2011, 07:15:39 PM
Government spending (if done correctly) can and has been the best medicine for economic depression.  Look at the Russian recovery program and how they've built their middle class over the previous decade.  You can find many examples of other countries that have done the same.  


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: AyeYo on July 02, 2011, 02:38:20 AM
Government spending (if done correctly) can and has been the best medicine for economic depression.  Look at the Russian recovery program and how they've built their middle class over the previous decade.  You can find many examples of other countries that have done the same.  


Middle class?  Pshh... no care.  What's a middle class?  I'm only interested in helping the wealthy and crushing the poor.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: niemivh on July 04, 2011, 09:28:38 AM
Government spending (if done correctly) can and has been the best medicine for economic depression.  Look at the Russian recovery program and how they've built their middle class over the previous decade.  You can find many examples of other countries that have done the same.  


Middle class?  Pshh... no care.  What's a middle class?  I'm only interested in helping the wealthy and crushing the poor.

Well the best thing you can do to promote that is keep building the myth of the "Free Market".  It's worked great so far.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: AyeYo on July 04, 2011, 02:07:32 PM
Government spending (if done correctly) can and has been the best medicine for economic depression.  Look at the Russian recovery program and how they've built their middle class over the previous decade.  You can find many examples of other countries that have done the same.  


Middle class?  Pshh... no care.  What's a middle class?  I'm only interested in helping the wealthy and crushing the poor.

Well the best thing you can do to promote that is keep building the myth of the "Free Market".  It's worked great so far.


Indeed.  I love promoting stuff that hurts myself.  I hope to someday be lucky enough to be in a serf position, serving my rich masters in a totally unregulated marketplace.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: Sovereign on July 04, 2011, 03:56:40 PM
Government spending (if done correctly) can and has been the best medicine for economic depression.  Look at the Russian recovery program and how they've built their middle class over the previous decade.  You can find many examples of other countries that have done the same.  

Government spending is stupid and never works. For the government to spend, it has to tax. When it taxes, it is suctioning up capital from one sector of the economy, to decide what sector it will inject it in. Government cannot create wealth out of thin air.



Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: Sovereign on July 04, 2011, 03:57:28 PM
Government spending (if done correctly) can and has been the best medicine for economic depression.  Look at the Russian recovery program and how they've built their middle class over the previous decade.  You can find many examples of other countries that have done the same.  


Middle class?  Pshh... no care.  What's a middle class?  I'm only interested in helping the wealthy and crushing the poor.

Well the best thing you can do to promote that is keep building the myth of the "Free Market".  It's worked great so far.


Indeed.  I love promoting stuff that hurts myself.  I hope to someday be lucky enough to be in a serf position, serving my rich masters in a totally unregulated marketplace.

Do you even know what a free market is?


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: AyeYo on July 04, 2011, 04:57:29 PM
Government spending (if done correctly) can and has been the best medicine for economic depression.  Look at the Russian recovery program and how they've built their middle class over the previous decade.  You can find many examples of other countries that have done the same.  

Government spending is stupid and never works.

Baseless statement that is a direct affront to the evidence provided in this thread.  Baseless statement is baseless.  Try again.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: hugolp on July 04, 2011, 05:50:04 PM
Baseless statement that is a direct affront to the evidence provided in this thread.  Baseless statement is baseless.  Try again.

Says the king of hand waiving. AyeYo you become more sureal as time goes.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: JA37 on July 04, 2011, 07:43:37 PM
Government spending (if done correctly) can and has been the best medicine for economic depression.  Look at the Russian recovery program and how they've built their middle class over the previous decade.  You can find many examples of other countries that have done the same.  
Government spending is stupid and never works. For the government to spend, it has to tax. When it taxes, it is suctioning up capital from one sector of the economy, to decide what sector it will inject it in. Government cannot create wealth out of thin air.
So, even though that's just what Sweden has done, and they've come out on top after the recession, what they just did doesn't work?
Interesting.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: Anonymous on July 04, 2011, 07:46:21 PM
Government spending (if done correctly) can and has been the best medicine for economic depression.  Look at the Russian recovery program and how they've built their middle class over the previous decade.  You can find many examples of other countries that have done the same.  
Government spending is stupid and never works. For the government to spend, it has to tax. When it taxes, it is suctioning up capital from one sector of the economy, to decide what sector it will inject it in. Government cannot create wealth out of thin air.
So, even though that's just what Sweden has done, and they've come out on top after the recession, what they just did doesn't work?
Interesting.
It won't work if it is applied to a larger society.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: hugolp on July 04, 2011, 07:49:43 PM
Government spending (if done correctly) can and has been the best medicine for economic depression.  Look at the Russian recovery program and how they've built their middle class over the previous decade.  You can find many examples of other countries that have done the same.  
Government spending is stupid and never works. For the government to spend, it has to tax. When it taxes, it is suctioning up capital from one sector of the economy, to decide what sector it will inject it in. Government cannot create wealth out of thin air.
So, even though that's just what Sweden has done, and they've come out on top after the recession, what they just did doesn't work?
Interesting.

You never addressed my reply about how government spending does not work. I find curious that you keep repeating the same.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: JA37 on July 04, 2011, 07:55:54 PM
You never addressed my reply about how government spending does not work. I find curious that you keep repeating the same.

Reply #25?


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: carlerha on July 04, 2011, 08:05:34 PM
I'm just tired of seeing propaganda (e.g. on the UN best of lists) that the scandinavian socialism is so good, when in fact close to 80% of a typical person's income goes into taxes in some way or another, and one have to settle for whatever the government hands back to you.
The typical Swede does not pay 80% in taxes. The typical Swede pays 25-30% in taxes.
You're talking about income tax. Add sales tax, car tax, property tax, inheritance tax, import/customs taxes, liquor tax, tobacco tax, gas tax, fortune taxes, stamp taxes, CO2 tax, and double taxation on some of these and you're quickly approaching 80%.

Calculation for norwegian conditions (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fonarki.vgb.no%2F2010%2F08%2Fdette-betaler-du-i-skatt%2F&act=url)


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: hugolp on July 04, 2011, 08:10:17 PM
You never addressed my reply about how government spending does not work. I find curious that you keep repeating the same.

Reply #25?

Yes.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: JA37 on July 04, 2011, 08:21:04 PM

"It generally does": So basically you are acknowledging my point that it not always does.
I acknowledge that economics isn't an exact science and that you'll have to go by probabilities. If something has a high probability of succeeding that's the thing to do, even though it might not work every time.

Quote
How did consumption in housing "help" the economy in the USA, Ireland or Spain? What type of consumption has happened in Sweden? Is it sustainable or only a small bubble created by the central bank? Will the capital created by the entrepreneurs due to the signals produced by that consumption be productive in the future? Or will it be waste because that artificial consumption will desappear when the artificial conditions are not there?
I don't know what kind of consumption has taken place? What do people usually buy when they get extra money? Who decides waste? If the consumption disappears when the country is out of recession it doesn't really matter does it? It did what it was supposed to do when it was needed.

Quote
Consumption is not an abstract blob of data. Consumption means that the people has consumed some specific types of products.
Yes. I agree. Your point?

Quote
Greenspan kept lowering the rates at any sign of economic downturn, to "stimulate" the economy. He create the housing bubble.
Again, I don't know enough about US economy to refute this. I doubt that it's so simple as low rates though. It rarely is.

Quote
Yes, I like a lot the example of Sweden in the 90's and how they handled their housing bubble. You know why? Because they liquidated their debt. No need for massive increase of government spending in the economy (wrongly called "stimulous"), just liquidate the debt.

Basically, the way these kind of things are solved in a free market is by letting companies go bankrupt. The debt is liquidated and the remaining assets can be realocated. But because Sweden (and any modern occidental country) has a comletely regulated banking system that allows the banks to overextend credit way beyond what the free market would allow, this solution would be very painful (quick and effective, but very painful). Therefore the government took care of the mess it had created. And honestly I have to say is one of the more responsable actions by a government I have ever seen. They basically said they would not pay for the banks debt, so basically the debtors lost it, and also liquidated the position of the shareholders. They only went in to save the money of the depositors. Once it was done they sold the banks back to private owners to recover as much money as they could.

The key here is that they liquidated the debt, so the economy could start over.

Realize that both lowering interest rates and massive government spending goes into the other way. It tries to keep the debt obligations being payed by devaluation of the currency. Its a slow default, so its a slow recovery. Liquidating the debt in a quick default allows for a quick recovery.

Also, its worth noticing that by lowering interest rates and government spending (the keynesian solution) you are helping banks and the politically connected while hurting the poor. Instead, by defaulting on the debt you are hurting the banks and the investors. This is the reason why the keynesian solution is almost always the choosen one.

If it's that easy to liquidate debt then why doesn't more do it? It discourages investments, doesn't it? Something that is essential for a thriving economy? I agree that the way Sweden handled the housing crisis was a good way, but I doubt you can do it over and over.
There are poor people in Sweden? They're one of the biggest welfare states out there, right? I doubt the poor in Sweden are very poor.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: niemivh on July 04, 2011, 09:13:59 PM
Government spending (if done correctly) can and has been the best medicine for economic depression.  Look at the Russian recovery program and how they've built their middle class over the previous decade.  You can find many examples of other countries that have done the same.  

Government spending is stupid and never works. For the government to spend, it has to tax. When it taxes, it is suctioning up capital from one sector of the economy, to decide what sector it will inject it in. Government cannot create wealth out of thin air.

Ignorance overload.

http://www.stellarpath.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/exploding-head.jpg


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: Anonymous on July 04, 2011, 09:15:10 PM
Government spending (if done correctly) can and has been the best medicine for economic depression.  Look at the Russian recovery program and how they've built their middle class over the previous decade.  You can find many examples of other countries that have done the same.  

Government spending is stupid and never works. For the government to spend, it has to tax. When it taxes, it is suctioning up capital from one sector of the economy, to decide what sector it will inject it in. Government cannot create wealth out of thin air.

Ignorance overload.

http://www.stellarpath.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/exploding-head.jpg

Taxation is wealth. Monopoly is growth. Freedom is decline.

All hail the state!


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: niemivh on July 04, 2011, 09:16:06 PM
Government spending (if done correctly) can and has been the best medicine for economic depression.  Look at the Russian recovery program and how they've built their middle class over the previous decade.  You can find many examples of other countries that have done the same.  
Government spending is stupid and never works. For the government to spend, it has to tax. When it taxes, it is suctioning up capital from one sector of the economy, to decide what sector it will inject it in. Government cannot create wealth out of thin air.
So, even though that's just what Sweden has done, and they've come out on top after the recession, what they just did doesn't work?
Interesting.
It won't work if it is applied to a larger society.

Yeah, poor China is doing so terrible with it's economic growth statistics and massive government spending.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: Anonymous on July 04, 2011, 09:17:16 PM
Government spending (if done correctly) can and has been the best medicine for economic depression.  Look at the Russian recovery program and how they've built their middle class over the previous decade.  You can find many examples of other countries that have done the same.  
Government spending is stupid and never works. For the government to spend, it has to tax. When it taxes, it is suctioning up capital from one sector of the economy, to decide what sector it will inject it in. Government cannot create wealth out of thin air.
So, even though that's just what Sweden has done, and they've come out on top after the recession, what they just did doesn't work?
Interesting.
It won't work if it is applied to a larger society.

Yeah, poor China is doing so terrible with it's economic growth statistics and massive government spending.
It may look fine on paper but when is the paper relevant? All I see is disillusionment, illness and sometimes hunger when I look at the populace.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: niemivh on July 04, 2011, 09:17:59 PM
Government spending (if done correctly) can and has been the best medicine for economic depression.  Look at the Russian recovery program and how they've built their middle class over the previous decade.  You can find many examples of other countries that have done the same.  

Government spending is stupid and never works. For the government to spend, it has to tax. When it taxes, it is suctioning up capital from one sector of the economy, to decide what sector it will inject it in. Government cannot create wealth out of thin air.

Ignorance overload.

http://www.stellarpath.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/exploding-head.jpg

Taxation is wealth. Monopoly is growth. Freedom is decline.

All hail the state!

When you are done misrepresenting my position let me know.  Hopefully we can have a dialogue at some point.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: niemivh on July 04, 2011, 09:23:39 PM
Government spending (if done correctly) can and has been the best medicine for economic depression.  Look at the Russian recovery program and how they've built their middle class over the previous decade.  You can find many examples of other countries that have done the same.  
Government spending is stupid and never works. For the government to spend, it has to tax. When it taxes, it is suctioning up capital from one sector of the economy, to decide what sector it will inject it in. Government cannot create wealth out of thin air.
So, even though that's just what Sweden has done, and they've come out on top after the recession, what they just did doesn't work?
Interesting.
It won't work if it is applied to a larger society.

Yeah, poor China is doing so terrible with it's economic growth statistics and massive government spending.
It may look fine on paper but when is the paper relevant? All I see is disillusionment, illness and sometimes hunger when I look at the populace.

The paper is irrelevant when you can no longer buy anything worthwhile with it, when nobody wants to exchange anything for it.  China is a 'dirigistic' economy and focuses on making things that people want to buy, a novel concept I know.  The USA sells derivatives and other paper forms of fraud as what's left of our export economy is left to wither on the vine or be scuttled in favor of bigger and bigger bailouts.  I wonder who's currency will be worthless if both countries continue on their path?


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: Anonymous on July 04, 2011, 09:26:40 PM
Government spending (if done correctly) can and has been the best medicine for economic depression.  Look at the Russian recovery program and how they've built their middle class over the previous decade.  You can find many examples of other countries that have done the same.  
Government spending is stupid and never works. For the government to spend, it has to tax. When it taxes, it is suctioning up capital from one sector of the economy, to decide what sector it will inject it in. Government cannot create wealth out of thin air.
So, even though that's just what Sweden has done, and they've come out on top after the recession, what they just did doesn't work?
Interesting.
It won't work if it is applied to a larger society.

Yeah, poor China is doing so terrible with it's economic growth statistics and massive government spending.
It may look fine on paper but when is the paper relevant? All I see is disillusionment, illness and sometimes hunger when I look at the populace.

The paper is irrelevant when you can no longer buy anything worthwhile with it, when nobody wants to exchange anything for it.  China is a 'dirigistic' economy and focuses on making things that people want to buy, a novel concept I know.  The USA sells derivatives and other paper forms of fraud as what's left of our export economy is left to wither on the vine or be scuttled in favor of bigger and bigger bailouts.  I wonder who's currency will be worthless if both countries continue on their path?
I'm talking about the statistics.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: Sovereign on July 04, 2011, 11:01:43 PM
Government spending (if done correctly) can and has been the best medicine for economic depression.  Look at the Russian recovery program and how they've built their middle class over the previous decade.  You can find many examples of other countries that have done the same.  

Government spending is stupid and never works. For the government to spend, it has to tax. When it taxes, it is suctioning up capital from one sector of the economy, to decide what sector it will inject it in. Government cannot create wealth out of thin air.

Ignorance overload.

http://www.stellarpath.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/exploding-head.jpg

Governments are run by corporations through lobbies that lobby congress to appropriate funds to their corporations. The people from the corporations also lobby other departments of the federal government to regulate industries so that only the few big corporations that can afford to lobby can compete, while regulating the smaller corporations out of business.

If you think government is benevolent and will appropriate funds 'fairly', then you would have loved to live in one of the command economies of the 20th century (you would have probably starved to death under those conditions)

It's because people like you are ignorant of how the price system works to allocate resources, and how governments mess that up and cause shortages and economic depressions.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: AyeYo on July 05, 2011, 12:05:39 AM
Government spending (if done correctly) can and has been the best medicine for economic depression.  Look at the Russian recovery program and how they've built their middle class over the previous decade.  You can find many examples of other countries that have done the same.  

Government spending is stupid and never works. For the government to spend, it has to tax. When it taxes, it is suctioning up capital from one sector of the economy, to decide what sector it will inject it in. Government cannot create wealth out of thin air.

Ignorance overload.

http://www.stellarpath.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/exploding-head.jpg

Governments are run by corporations through lobbies that lobby congress to appropriate funds to their corporations. The people from the corporations also lobby other departments of the federal government to regulate industries so that only the few big corporations that can afford to lobby can compete, while regulating the smaller corporations out of business.

If you think government is benevolent and will appropriate funds 'fairly', then you would have loved to live in one of the command economies of the 20th century (you would have probably starved to death under those conditions)

It's because people like you are ignorant of how the price system works to allocate resources, and how governments mess that up and cause shortages and economic depressions.



What you're talking about does not apply to all governments.  It applies to ineffective governments that no longer service the good of society at large, like the US government.

Proper management by government and central banking, as in China, Japan, Sweden, etc. betters society and produces more growth - this is not speculation, it is a proven fact.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: hugolp on July 05, 2011, 06:46:33 PM

"It generally does": So basically you are acknowledging my point that it not always does.
I acknowledge that economics isn't an exact science and that you'll have to go by probabilities. If something has a high probability of succeeding that's the thing to do, even though it might not work every time.

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How did consumption in housing "help" the economy in the USA, Ireland or Spain? What type of consumption has happened in Sweden? Is it sustainable or only a small bubble created by the central bank? Will the capital created by the entrepreneurs due to the signals produced by that consumption be productive in the future? Or will it be waste because that artificial consumption will desappear when the artificial conditions are not there?
I don't know what kind of consumption has taken place? What do people usually buy when they get extra money? Who decides waste? If the consumption disappears when the country is out of recession it doesn't really matter does it? It did what it was supposed to do when it was needed.

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Consumption is not an abstract blob of data. Consumption means that the people has consumed some specific types of products.
Yes. I agree. Your point?

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Greenspan kept lowering the rates at any sign of economic downturn, to "stimulate" the economy. He create the housing bubble.
Again, I don't know enough about US economy to refute this. I doubt that it's so simple as low rates though. It rarely is.

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Yes, I like a lot the example of Sweden in the 90's and how they handled their housing bubble. You know why? Because they liquidated their debt. No need for massive increase of government spending in the economy (wrongly called "stimulous"), just liquidate the debt.

Basically, the way these kind of things are solved in a free market is by letting companies go bankrupt. The debt is liquidated and the remaining assets can be realocated. But because Sweden (and any modern occidental country) has a comletely regulated banking system that allows the banks to overextend credit way beyond what the free market would allow, this solution would be very painful (quick and effective, but very painful). Therefore the government took care of the mess it had created. And honestly I have to say is one of the more responsable actions by a government I have ever seen. They basically said they would not pay for the banks debt, so basically the debtors lost it, and also liquidated the position of the shareholders. They only went in to save the money of the depositors. Once it was done they sold the banks back to private owners to recover as much money as they could.

The key here is that they liquidated the debt, so the economy could start over.

Realize that both lowering interest rates and massive government spending goes into the other way. It tries to keep the debt obligations being payed by devaluation of the currency. Its a slow default, so its a slow recovery. Liquidating the debt in a quick default allows for a quick recovery.

Also, its worth noticing that by lowering interest rates and government spending (the keynesian solution) you are helping banks and the politically connected while hurting the poor. Instead, by defaulting on the debt you are hurting the banks and the investors. This is the reason why the keynesian solution is almost always the choosen one.

If it's that easy to liquidate debt then why doesn't more do it? It discourages investments, doesn't it? Something that is essential for a thriving economy? I agree that the way Sweden handled the housing crisis was a good way, but I doubt you can do it over and over.
There are poor people in Sweden? They're one of the biggest welfare states out there, right? I doubt the poor in Sweden are very poor.

You have basically avoiding answering.

This:

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It did what it was supposed to do when it was needed.

is faith, not logic or empirical evidences or anything related to economics.

Honestly, the keynesians in this forum are very very weak. Its mostly hand waving, repeating the same mantra over and over again, and avoiding addressing arguments. It seems more like a histeric propaganda squad than thinking people.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: JA37 on July 05, 2011, 09:28:01 PM

You have basically avoiding answering.

This:

Quote
It did what it was supposed to do when it was needed.

is faith, not logic or empirical evidences or anything related to economics.

Honestly, the keynesians in this forum are very very weak. Its mostly hand waving, repeating the same mantra over and over again, and avoiding addressing arguments. It seems more like a histeric propaganda squad than thinking people.

I'm not that educated in macro economics to explain everything, however by observing the world I can draw some conclusions about what appears to work and what doesn't.

The quote you pulled was about businesses going out of business when certain programs were removed, after a recession. So, it kept the economy going during the recession, making sure people had money to spend. How is that "faith, not logic or empirical evidences or anything related to economics"?

If you think Keynesians make weak arguments you should have a look at the AnCap/Liberts.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: hugolp on July 05, 2011, 09:36:09 PM
I'm not that educated in macro economics to explain everything, however by observing the world I can draw some conclusions about what appears to work and what doesn't.

Then you should keep an open mind and try to learn instead of giving lessons.

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The quote you pulled was about businesses going out of business when certain programs were removed, after a recession. So, it kept the economy going during the recession, making sure people had money to spend. How is that "faith, not logic or empirical evidences or anything related to economics"?

I already answered to this, but let me try again from another point. First answer to this: ¿This programs you want the government to do when there is a recession can be anything, like getting people to dig a whole and then others to cover it, or should it try to be a productive investment?


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: JA37 on July 05, 2011, 09:53:25 PM

Then you should keep an open mind and try to learn instead of giving lessons.

I already answered to this, but let me try again from another point. First answer to this: ¿This programs you want the government to do when there is a recession can be anything, like getting people to dig a whole and then others to cover it, or should it try to be a productive investment?

I keep an open mind. Whenever I hear something that makes some kind of sense I listen. I won't however keep my mind so open that my brain falls out. Listening to conspiracy theorists and general nutters isn't really my cup of tea. Unless it's for entertainment value.

It would be better to have some kind of productive that can grow to a regular business after the recession, but to keep the economy going it needs people to use services and purchase goods, so it really doesn't matter how people get money, as long as they have money to spend.
That's what Sweden is doing, and it obviously works.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: hugolp on July 06, 2011, 05:07:16 AM
I keep an open mind. Whenever I hear something that makes some kind of sense I listen. I won't however keep my mind so open that my brain falls out. Listening to conspiracy theorists and general nutters isn't really my cup of tea. Unless it's for entertainment value.

Ok, calling me, the only person who is trying to make sense here, a conspiracy theorist and a nut is enougth. Im done.

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It would be better to have some kind of productive that can grow to a regular business after the recession, but to keep the economy going it needs people to use services and purchase goods, so it really doesn't matter how people get money, as long as they have money to spend.
That's what Sweden is doing, and it obviously works.

You keep repeating the same mantra without any proof. You guys are just propagandists without no interst in reality. Good luck.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: JA37 on July 07, 2011, 09:12:15 AM
Ok, calling me, the only person who is trying to make sense here, a conspiracy theorist and a nut is enougth. Im done.

You keep repeating the same mantra without any proof. You guys are just propagandists without no interst in reality. Good luck.

Don't be so sensitive, this is the Internet. I wasn't talking about you specifically. There's a lot of "the gub'mint EEVILL I tell you. EEEEEEVILLLLL" going on here. Anyone can clearly see that governments needs improvements here and there, but the rage going on here isn't proportional.

What reality? Your reality? Or the reality I can observe in the world? I'm supposed to take your theory over real world observations?
If want to convince me that your theory is superior you'll better be prepared to argue for it.

And what's your economic training? I acknowledge that I'm not an expert in the subject, but since you're trying to educate me please give your credentials so that I know that you're better informed about the economic works of the world.


Title: Re: Five economic lessons from Sweden, the rock star of the recovery
Post by: Osnaz on July 07, 2011, 12:50:33 PM
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