Bitcoin Forum

Economy => Speculation => Topic started by: AquaMan on June 14, 2013, 05:37:49 AM



Title: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: AquaMan on June 14, 2013, 05:37:49 AM
http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/02/calculating-the-long-term-value-of-a-bitcoin/

Interesting, make your own argument...


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: suryc on June 14, 2013, 06:00:51 AM
http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/02/calculating-the-long-term-value-of-a-bitcoin/

Interesting, make your own argument...

Just to clarify, if you read that article it says that there is a 10% chance that 1btc will be worth $13,500 in 10 years time. And that is after they make a bunch of assumptions.

Also, there "interactive calculator" is not working at the moment, so I can't even see how they came up with the $13,500.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: AquaMan on June 14, 2013, 06:05:24 AM
http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/02/calculating-the-long-term-value-of-a-bitcoin/

Interesting, make your own argument...

Just to clarify, if you read that article it says that there is a 10% chance that 1btc will be worth $13,500 in 10 years time. And that is after they make a bunch of assumptions.

Also, there "interactive calculator" is not working at the moment, so I can't even see how they came up with the $13,500.
Yea, 1% chance itll succeed, $1350, 100% chance of succeeding, $135,000. Can only hope itll be true one day, calculator works fine for me.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: tutkarz on June 14, 2013, 06:19:34 AM


Bitcoins are coming down, and the clones (alt coins) will go up.

There is no limited supply of 'bitcoins' and all it takes is copy and paste, and can create lots of coins.



said creator of altcoins ;)


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: WinVery.com on June 14, 2013, 06:24:02 AM


Bitcoins are coming down, and the clones (alt coins) will go up.

There is no limited supply of 'bitcoins' and all it takes is copy and paste, and can create lots of coins.



c++ disagrees.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: BitBank on June 14, 2013, 06:30:12 AM


Bitcoins are coming down, and the clones (alt coins) will go up.

There is no limited supply of 'bitcoins' and all it takes is copy and paste, and can create lots of coins.



said creator of altcoins ;)

^^^^^  :D


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: AquaMan on June 14, 2013, 07:29:30 AM
lol... yes, thanks for the laugh...


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: dave111223 on June 14, 2013, 08:22:13 AM


Bitcoins are coming down, and the clones (alt coins) will go up.

There is no limited supply of 'bitcoins' and all it takes is copy and paste, and can create lots of coins.



Thanks for the tip, I just copied and pasted myself 10 million bitcoins...time to party


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: naphto on June 14, 2013, 09:19:09 AM
Quote
it has lots of great properties — negligible transaction fees (...)


Bullshit.
My credit card is free of charge for me (as a customer), I don't give a shit if the merchant have to pay an American company for providing this service. But I know, and I care, that everywhere in the country I can use it, without paying any fee. Bitcoins fees are way too high.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: naphto on June 14, 2013, 09:22:56 AM
The article does not into account the whole picture


+ the main argument should not be based on stupid assumption like "the bitcoin market should represent xxxx in the future", but "how much an average human being is willing to pay for 1 bitcoin?".


Considering a 10 % chance of loosing it all, does anyone will be willing to spend 13.5 k usd for that? Not even close...


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: AliceWonder on June 14, 2013, 09:23:27 AM
Quote
it has lots of great properties — negligible transaction fees (...)


Bullshit.
My credit card is free of charge for me (as a customer), I don't give a shit if the merchant have to pay an American company for providing this service. But I know, and I care, that everywhere in the country I can use it, without paying any fee. Bitcoins fees are way too high.

Oh with credit cards you pay the fees, it's just not separated out of the item cost in most cases.

Historically anyway merchants were not allowed to charge less for cash, many wanted to.
Now some actually do.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: CanadianGuy on June 14, 2013, 09:25:33 AM
The article does not into account the whole picture


+ the main argument should not be based on stupid assumption like "the bitcoin market should represent xxxx in the future", but "how much an average human being is willing to pay for 1 bitcoin?".


Considering a 10 % chance of loosing it all, does anyone will be willing to spend 13.5 k usd for that? Not even close...


You're assuming people would be dealing with entire bitcoins regularly. what's wrong with a satoshi


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: awsww on June 14, 2013, 09:33:55 AM
I think this will happen in 100 years.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: suryc on June 14, 2013, 09:35:38 AM
Quote
it has lots of great properties — negligible transaction fees (...)

Bullshit.
My credit card is free of charge for me (as a customer), I don't give a shit if the merchant have to pay an American company for providing this service. But I know, and I care, that everywhere in the country I can use it, without paying any fee. Bitcoins fees are way too high.

Bitcoins fees are not too high. Whether or not you realize it you are indirectly paying a fee every time you use your credit card.
Merchants pay credit card fees that average around 2.5-3% of the transaction and that cost is passed on to the consumer (you're kidding yourself if you think it isn't). That's why more and more merchants offer cash discounts.
Bitcoin fees are negligible compared to that. .0001 btc on a .1btc transaction is only 0.1%
All that is needed is an easy method for mainstream implementation.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: naphto on June 14, 2013, 09:37:31 AM
The article does not into account the whole picture


+ the main argument should not be based on stupid assumption like "the bitcoin market should represent xxxx in the future", but "how much an average human being is willing to pay for 1 bitcoin?".


Considering a 10 % chance of loosing it all, does anyone will be willing to spend 13.5 k usd for that? Not even close...


You're assuming people are going to want an entire bitcoin.. what's wrong with a satoshi


That's about human psychology.
Why the top was about 250 usd a few weeks ago? Because 250 is 1/4 of one thousand usd. That's why ... People understood that it was overestimated. It could have been 500 or 1 000 as well.

You can find 1 guy stupid enough to pay 1 000 usd for 1 btc, but not enough people to maintain the price that high.
Bitcoin was not designed to be used for anything else that it is now:
- wannabe-traders-willing-to-make-money
- negligible trades (for drugs, geeks, or money laundering)


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: naphto on June 14, 2013, 09:46:50 AM
Bitcoins fees are not too high.

If my credit card would charge me any fee higher than bitcoin I would agree with that.
But considering the fact that the fee with my credit card is 0, I disagree.

Whether or not you realize it you are indirectly paying a fee every time you use your credit card.

I don't. My bank does not charge me anything for providing me a credit card, and using it. Mercants do.
Not to mention that if my credit card got stolen, I can get my money back. If my btc address is stolen, I can't do shit.

Merchants pay credit card fees that average around 2.5-3% of the transaction and that cost is passed on to the consumer (you're kidding yourself if you think it isn't).

The only restriction I have is to pay more than 10 euros with my credit card (else I have to use cash). But the price is the same if I pay with check, credit card, cash, so...

That's why more and more merchants offer cash discounts.

See above.
Not to mention that I can withdrawn cash without being charged any fee.
Not to mention that before paying anything with btc, you have to buy them, and the fees are even greater than btc transaction fee.

Bitcoin fees are negligible compared to that. .0001 btc on a .1btc transaction is only 0.1%
All that is needed is an easy method for mainstream implementation.

That's bullshit again.
Some website said they accept bitcoin, like that "DigiDeals" in Australia. When you want to pay online, guess what:

Quote
Credit or Debit Card (2% processing fee)
  
PayPal (2% processing fee)
  
Bank Transfer
  
Bitcoin (5% processing fee)



Bitcoin fees will always be higher that credit card fees.
Try to figure out why by yourself.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: semaforo on June 14, 2013, 09:57:45 AM


You can find 1 guy stupid enough to pay 1 000 usd for 1 btc, but not enough people to maintain the price that high.
Bitcoin was not designed to be used for anything else that it is now:
- wannabe-traders-willing-to-make-money
- negligible trades (for drugs, geeks, or money laundering)

   Don't forget that it can revolutionize global remittance market, really can be used effectively for tax evasion, can be used to cheaply move around international sanctions in big markets like Iran, and can provide a hedge against inflation in countries like Sudan, where inflation is at 30%, and the black market exchange rate for the dollar is nearly double the official rate.

  I believe Mr. Nakamoto had a paradigm changing disruptive technology in mind that could completely change the political and economic landscape of the planet when bitcoin was designed. The global remittance market is over $500 billion right now. Bitcoin offers substantial efficiency gains in speed and ease of transfer. If bitcoin captures 1% of this market then bitcoin market cap will increase to 6 billion, with each bitcoin being worth $545. For credit cards in countries with built up payment infrastructure, maybe you as a consumer can see charges associated with electronic payments as the sellers problem. If you trust the banks, including your country's central bank.
   And do you think in a country where monthly income per capita is around $300 dollars, and then one family starts getting a payment from a family member working in Sweden for $550 a month through BTC exchanges instead of the $510 a month they were getting with Western Union, do you really think their neighbors are just going to ignore this and keep using Western Union?


  Get real, speculators. You're in a new dimension now. Newtonian laws do not apply in quantum or relativistic space. Welcome to hyperspace.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: torba on June 14, 2013, 10:06:05 AM
Bitcoins fees are not too high.

If my credit card would charge me any fee higher than bitcoin I would agree with that.
But considering the fact that the fee with my credit card is 0, I disagree.

Whether or not you realize it you are indirectly paying a fee every time you use your credit card.

I don't. My bank does not charge me anything for providing me a credit card, and using it. Mercants do.
Not to mention that if my credit card got stolen, I can get my money back. If my btc address is stolen, I can't do shit.

Merchants pay credit card fees that average around 2.5-3% of the transaction and that cost is passed on to the consumer (you're kidding yourself if you think it isn't).

The only restriction I have is to pay more than 10 euros with my credit card (else I have to use cash). But the price is the same if I pay with check, credit card, cash, so...

That's why more and more merchants offer cash discounts.

See above.
Not to mention that I can withdrawn cash without being charged any fee.
Not to mention that before paying anything with btc, you have to buy them, and the fees are even greater than btc transaction fee.

Bitcoin fees are negligible compared to that. .0001 btc on a .1btc transaction is only 0.1%
All that is needed is an easy method for mainstream implementation.

That's bullshit again.
Some website said they accept bitcoin, like that "DigiDeals" in Australia. When you want to pay online, guess what:

Quote
Credit or Debit Card (2% processing fee)
  
PayPal (2% processing fee)
  
Bank Transfer
  
Bitcoin (5% processing fee)



Bitcoin fees will always be higher that credit card fees.
Try to figure out why by yourself.
Someone on the bitcointalk forum who doesn't support bitcoin/altcoin 100%? Burn him at the stake!


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: naphto on June 14, 2013, 10:23:44 AM
Someone on the bitcointalk forum who doesn't support bitcoin/altcoin 100%? Burn him at the stake!


Being here does not forbid/prevent from using your brain  ::)


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: naphto on June 14, 2013, 10:28:29 AM
  And do you think in a country where monthly income per capita is around $300 dollars, and then one family starts getting a payment from a family member working in Sweden for $550 a month through BTC exchanges instead of the $510 a month they were getting with Western Union, do you really think their neighbors are just going to ignore this and keep using Western Union?


How the hell would bitcoins be able to reduce those fees?
If you want to buy btc with kroners, you have to convert kroner to usd first (or euros), and then convert usd (or euros) into bitcoins.
You will get charged:
(1) by your bank for converting kroners.
(2) by mtgox for converting usd.



But, if you find a reliable way to convert kroner => btc and btc => usd, maybe you can save money.
But at which price? Too much of a hassle compared with the easiest way: international wire.


So, yes, it could save money, but not likely to be used by most of the world population.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: johnyj on June 14, 2013, 10:38:55 AM
QE3's 2.8 billion new USD per day vs 3600 new bitcoin per day, $778K per coin, at 1% acceptance, $7.8K per coin

People tends to forget how much new USD were created daily, out of nothing


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: superduh on June 14, 2013, 11:26:26 AM
It's alright guys, naphto is attempting to use his head


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: semaforo on June 14, 2013, 11:43:01 AM
  And do you think in a country where monthly income per capita is around $300 dollars, and then one family starts getting a payment from a family member working in Sweden for $550 a month through BTC exchanges instead of the $510 a month they were getting with Western Union, do you really think their neighbors are just going to ignore this and keep using Western Union?


How the hell would bitcoins be able to reduce those fees?
If you want to buy btc with kroners, you have to convert kroner to usd first (or euros), and then convert usd (or euros) into bitcoins.
You will get charged:
(1) by your bank for converting kroners.
(2) by mtgox for converting usd.



But, if you find a reliable way to convert kroner => btc and btc => usd, maybe you can save money.
But at which price? Too much of a hassle compared with the easiest way: international wire.


So, yes, it could save money, but not likely to be used by most of the world population.

    Compare fees to double digit inflation in many countries, and how are 1% exchange fees more expensive than WU fees of up to 20% for comparable speed. The cheapest Western Union fees are 5%, and it takes several days. This is to places where banking institutions are not widely distributed. I am guessing it is hard to imagine life like this in Denmark.

    I understand there is a gap here, because bitcoin adoption is mainly happening in post-industrial societies. There are barriers. Once the dam starts to crack, what starts as a trickle will soon start to grow.

    Take this example- in the Congo-Kinshasa, dollars are the defacto currency, with the Congolese franc being totally mismanaged. Small purchases like vegetables, coffee, or time in an internet cafe are paid with francs, but cars, real estate, diamonds, oil, and so forth, is all dollar based transactions.
    The dollars role as de facto world currency is the only reason that the Fed can print dollars with impunity without inflation skyrocketing. It's because hundreds of millions of people believe they have value, and this trust is being horrendously abused right now.

   So in the Congo, where all big purchases are made with dollars, someone can buy 50 BTC for $5,550 right now from their job in a fish processing plant in Alaska to Kinshasa. The purchase takes 4 days, and costs a 1% exchange fee of $55.50. They are sent in 30 minutes to Kinshasa, where someone can change the BTC back into dollars for another 1% fee. Okay, it cost over a hundred dollars to send the money, plus fluctuations could have resulted in a loss or gain of another couple of hundred dollars.

    If you compare this to a bank wire transfer fee, which are usually $35 to $75 for the same amount, the BTC-USD exchange rate entirely determines whether or not it was more efficient.

Both:

1) Recognition of its value in countries with high inflation and use for major purchases
2) More efficient exchanges

   could make BTC a better option than wire transfer. Also the scarcity of banking services or capital controls in some countries also add cost barriers that make BTC, especially mobile BTC transfers more cost effective.

   I don't expect people who haven't spent time in Africa to understand this, but take my word for it- this could become an international currency see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_inflation_rate

   This idea will not be stopped.

      


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: chiropteran on June 14, 2013, 11:45:08 AM

Some website said they accept bitcoin, like that "DigiDeals" in Australia. When you want to pay online, guess what:


Quote
Credit or Debit Card (2% processing fee)
  
PayPal (2% processing fee)
  
Bank Transfer
  
Bitcoin (5% processing fee)

It seems like you are taking a singular example and assuming all business everywhere forever will follow the same fee schedule.  Don't you realize how absurd of an assumption that is?

Here is a singular example that blows your whole theory out of the water: http://www.slysoft.com/en/

ZOMG!  10% discount for using bitcoin, in comparison credit cards have an 11.1% increased "fee".  Your silly 5% fee at DigiDeals doesn't seem like such a big deal anymore.



Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: BitcoinAshley on June 14, 2013, 12:24:00 PM
Quote
it has lots of great properties — negligible transaction fees (...)


Bullshit.
My credit card is free of charge for me (as a customer), I don't give a shit if the merchant have to pay an American company for providing this service. But I know, and I care, that everywhere in the country I can use it, without paying any fee. Bitcoins fees are way too high.


Nope. You are incredibly, retardedly, wrong. CC fees are priced into the goods/services you receive, as they are contractually prevented from adding a charge for CC billing in most cases. So the lower the tx fee for ANY service, the lower the overhead. If you think you're not affected by a recipient tx fee vs. a sender tx fee, you're wrong ;D

Merchants are allowed to charge less for cash but not more for CC. Most don't do this. Gas stations are a notable exception. For the most that don't, it's equivalent to everyone paying a little more to cover CC cost. For those that do, it's equiv. to getting a discount for cash payments. Just like I give my customers discounts for BTC payments as it's less trips to the bank for me, less hassle, and no fees (I don't use BitPay.)

The article does not into account the whole picture

+ the main argument should not be based on stupid assumption like "the bitcoin market should represent xxxx in the future", but "how much an average human being is willing to pay for 1 bitcoin?".


Considering a 10 % chance of loosing it all, does anyone will be willing to spend 13.5 k usd for that? Not even close...
Ok, so here naphto really reveals his stupidity as he obviously does not understand decimal points. Go back to highschool dude!  ::)

Why a "bitcoin" and not a "megabitcoin" or a "kilobitcoin" or a "minibitcoin?" Why "they wouldn't spend 13.5k for that" and not "they wouldn't spend 13.5k for a kilobitcoin" or "they wouldn't spend 10k for a yodabitcoin" like wtf for real? That's like the most noob mistake you could possibly make. Fungibility. Lrn2monetarytheory.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: Coinseeker on June 14, 2013, 12:49:50 PM
As was posted in another thread, Bitcoin will never be able to survive as an international currency.  Store of value maybe, but not a currency.

In 2011 Visa maxed out at 11,000 transactions per second.  Two years later, 2013, Bitcoin can only handle 5-7 transactions per second.  So no, Bitcoin won't be helping Africa or any other nation.  It can't even match the number of Visa transactions, let alone trying to surpass King Dollar.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: notme on June 14, 2013, 03:52:36 PM
Quote
it has lots of great properties — negligible transaction fees (...)


Bullshit.
My credit card is free of charge for me (as a customer), I don't give a shit if the merchant have to pay an American company for providing this service. But I know, and I care, that everywhere in the country I can use it, without paying any fee. Bitcoins fees are way too high.


Nope. You are incredibly, retardedly, wrong. CC fees are priced into the goods/services you receive, as they are contractually prevented from adding a charge for CC billing in most cases. So the lower the tx fee for ANY service, the lower the overhead. If you think you're not affected by a recipient tx fee vs. a sender tx fee, you're wrong ;D

Merchants are allowed to charge less for cash but not more for CC. Most don't do this. Gas stations are a notable exception. For the most that don't, it's equivalent to everyone paying a little more to cover CC cost. For those that do, it's equiv. to getting a discount for cash payments. Just like I give my customers discounts for BTC payments as it's less trips to the bank for me, less hassle, and no fees (I don't use BitPay.)


Exactly.  2-5% CC fees are a cost of doing business for merchants that accept them.  When conducting transactions has a cost, it doesn't matter who pays them because the one paying always factors it into their pricing.  If they are socialist (or contractually obligated to act as if they were) they may spread the cost across all customers, but the cost is still part of the price.  BTW, if you want a real world example, check out bitcoinstore.com.  Their huge product database is still a little tough to sort through, but it is getting better.  More importantly, by only accepting bitcoin, they are able to offer better prices on most electronics than any other site on the web.  Not only do they save CC processing fees, but they avoid the extra costs incurred in dealing with cases of fraud or attempted fraud.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: ElectricMucus on June 14, 2013, 03:55:26 PM
The error in this calculator is that it presents the percentage of "store of value" and "black market" to unrealistic values.

If you enter more realistic values like 0.01% in there you come to more realistic values.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: notme on June 14, 2013, 03:57:54 PM
The error in this calculator is that it presents the percentage of "store of value" and "black market" to unrealistic values.

If you enter more realistic values like 0.01% in there you come to more realistic values.

I disagree frequently with your comments, but this one is spot on, although store of value may be a bit higher than 0.01%.  (That said, I at least can respect your logic skills, we just have different experiences).


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: bitzox on June 14, 2013, 04:02:21 PM
It's alright guys, naphto is attempting to use his head

FTFY


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: yvv on June 14, 2013, 04:13:52 PM
The cheapest Western Union fees are 5%, and it takes several days.

BS. Currently, WU is much faster, cheaper, safer and more convenient than bitcoins.

Sending bitcoins from address to address is easy, but getting bitcoins and converting them back to fiat is pain in the ass (at least in USA).



Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: semaforo on June 14, 2013, 05:09:13 PM
As was posted in another thread, Bitcoin will never be able to survive as an international currency.  Store of value maybe, but not a currency.

In 2011 Visa maxed out at 11,000 transactions per second.  Two years later, 2013, Bitcoin can only handle 5-7 transactions per second.  So no, Bitcoin won't be helping Africa or any other nation.  It can't even match the number of Visa transactions, let alone trying to surpass King Dollar.


   A couple of years ago Western Union averaged less than 540,000 transaction per day.

http://www.chacha.com/question/how-many-transactions-does-western-union-make-in-one-day-worldwide


Quote
If there are any technical limits (from data types or whatever), they can be eliminated in the same way that MAX_BLOCK_SIZE can be increased.

Storage is the main issue, I think: an attacker could create huge blocks that every full network node has to store forever. With just 1 BTC you can create a block of 15+ GB by splitting it into 100,000,000 "nanocoins".

In the future most people will run Bitcoin in a "simple" mode that doesn't require downloading full blocks or transactions. At that point MAX_BLOCK_SIZE can be increased a lot.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1314.20


    As I understand it, 1 MB blocks allows for 7 transactions a second. 15 GB would be 15,000 times that or 105,000 tps. That's enough for the volume of bitcoin trade to exceed the volume of visa, moneygram, and western union combined.

     The post above was 3 years ago. I am not so sharp on the technical aspect. Does this mean that if block size was increased to handle more volume that DoS attacks would become more viable? Perhaps someone can give me a link to an old discussion about this. Maybe there will be dedicated servers that can confirm transactions by searching only relevant data to a specific transfer rather than the whole block? Anyone care to school me?




Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: semaforo on June 14, 2013, 05:37:52 PM
The cheapest Western Union fees are 5%, and it takes several days.

BS. Currently, WU is much faster, cheaper, safer and more convenient than bitcoins.

Sending bitcoins from address to address is easy, but getting bitcoins and converting them back to fiat is pain in the ass (at least in USA).




   Have you tried using WU? I've had many problems with WU transfers, often because of complicated security protocols. For example, in Colombia I once had to have a transfer resent in a friends name because the bank had a requirement that only Colombian citizens can receive transfers. If you honestly think WU is better than bitcoin, read this story:

http://www.thebeijinger.com/forum/2008/05/11/Western-Union-fees

   I have had similar experiences- the fees are high and they skim even more off with exchange rates considerably worse than bank exchange rates. They also require a slough of documentation which all has associated costs.


   Imagine bitcoin infrastructure is more developed, say two years from now. I could have had the transfer sent in BTC, simply got on to localbitcoins.com or a comparable service, and exchanged the BTC with a 1% or less transaction fee. The main cost is in the exchanges, but this is true of any forex transaction. Right now I am transferring money from the US to Germany via BTC. This costs me 1% deposit on one side, and 1% withdrawal on the other. For 5000 dollars this is 100 dollar fee- a wire transfer would be cheaper, but since I don't have a bank account in Germany (the bulk of people receiving remittances also do not have bank accounts) it is cheaper for me to sell the bitcoins via local bitcoins, where I can charge a 1% premium which translates the fee to effectively 0. This means my only cost is the time of finding a buyer on localbitcoins. Since I am not in a hurry and have moral reasons for not wanting to support corrupt governments and their currencies, this is great for me. The efficiency will increase in direct relation to the number of people using bitcoin.

     Surely, not as efficient as a wire transfer, but there is also no risk that a government in a financial crisis will seize or freeze my funds. Also, a wire transfer takes 3-5 days for funds to become available, sometimes even longer, and with larger amounts the time value of that money which goes to the bank, plus the fees, become a considerable sum. Also, many people receiving remittances don't have bank accounts or the ability to get one, being in rural areas and needing to care for their animals just to survive. Many of them don't have the id cards necessary to deal with banks. But with a smartphone with a BTC wallet, they can receive transfers from anywhere in the world almost instantly. They could then trade their BTC a little at a time for local fiat to meet expenses, thereby protecting themselves from the inflation rampant in many countries. When bitcoin catches on, they will also be able to trade directly with BTC, insha'Allah, eliminating the main obstacle in the network- the exchange on the ground in the recipient countries.
        
       There were people who said a man could never set foot on the moon. There are still people who say that humans never have walked on the moon. Keep up the critical thought, it will keep us rising.
      

  


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: yvv on June 14, 2013, 06:00:31 PM
  Have you tried using WU?

I use it every month, never had an issue. Fees used to be high in the past, but now they are quite acceptable.

I seriously considered using bitcoins or other e-money for sending money to my relatives in Ukraine, but this adds nothing but complexity.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: bitzox on June 14, 2013, 06:35:53 PM
Its a market in its nascent stages, complexity is to be expected. Do you think WU was easy when they were still using the pony express? Give it 24 months once regulatory issues have been resolved competition will increase, complexity and costs will decrease and WU will be left in the dust.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: jubalix on June 15, 2013, 02:08:26 AM


Bitcoins are coming down, and the clones (alt coins) will go up.

There is no limited supply of 'bitcoins' and all it takes is copy and paste, and can create lots of coins.



the blockchain stores the value, the bitcoin blockchain has the most agreed value,

I think you are confusing the software engine with the database


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: AliceWonder on June 15, 2013, 03:41:13 AM
Its a market in its nascent stages, complexity is to be expected. Do you think WU was easy when they were still using the pony express? Give it 24 months once regulatory issues have been resolved competition will increase, complexity and costs will decrease and WU will be left in the dust.

WU could adapt and adjust, using bitcoin as their means of transfer.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: Luckybit on June 15, 2013, 04:30:41 AM
The article does not into account the whole picture


+ the main argument should not be based on stupid assumption like "the bitcoin market should represent xxxx in the future", but "how much an average human being is willing to pay for 1 bitcoin?".


Considering a 10 % chance of loosing it all, does anyone will be willing to spend 13.5 k usd for that? Not even close...


They will be buying mBTC.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: Luckybit on June 15, 2013, 04:31:16 AM
I think this will happen in 100 years.

There wont be a such thing as work in 100 years. Robots will have all the jobs.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: Luckybit on June 15, 2013, 04:32:50 AM
The article does not into account the whole picture


+ the main argument should not be based on stupid assumption like "the bitcoin market should represent xxxx in the future", but "how much an average human being is willing to pay for 1 bitcoin?".


Considering a 10 % chance of loosing it all, does anyone will be willing to spend 13.5 k usd for that? Not even close...


You're assuming people are going to want an entire bitcoin.. what's wrong with a satoshi


That's about human psychology.
Why the top was about 250 usd a few weeks ago? Because 250 is 1/4 of one thousand usd. That's why ... People understood that it was overestimated. It could have been 500 or 1 000 as well.

You can find 1 guy stupid enough to pay 1 000 usd for 1 btc, but not enough people to maintain the price that high.
Bitcoin was not designed to be used for anything else that it is now:
- wannabe-traders-willing-to-make-money
- negligible trades (for drugs, geeks, or money laundering)


What will happen is miners will start pricing in mBTC and selling Bitcoin in mBTC.
Not much else would have to change. People will pay $1000 for 1BTC btw. I know I would. But the way I would do it is I would set aside a % of my income or paycheck to purchase Bitcoin no matter how much or how little it ends up being at the time.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: semaforo on June 15, 2013, 06:47:42 AM
Its a market in its nascent stages, complexity is to be expected. Do you think WU was easy when they were still using the pony express? Give it 24 months once regulatory issues have been resolved competition will increase, complexity and costs will decrease and WU will be left in the dust.

WU could adapt and adjust, using bitcoin as their means of transfer.

    If WU starts using bitcoin, then I can finally become a professional philanthropist.

I rejected email in 1994. You mean I have to get a computer, learn how to use it, wrap my brain around concepts like "software," figure out how modems work, make a contract with an ISP, and then call tech support any time there's a problem? Why would I go through this ridiculously complicated process when I can just buy some stamps and put a letter in the post box?


     People still write letters today. I'm a bear on email. It's just a matter of time before someone hacks email or the government shuts it down because of all the criminals writing emails. Then we will all go back to letters and the beauty of receiving personal handwritten messages.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: HappyBitCoinUser on June 15, 2013, 09:07:41 AM
Stop with BTC $1k - $1M cause its retarded and unrealistic. Its not even speculation, its trolling.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: wachtwoord on June 15, 2013, 11:14:08 AM
Stop with BTC $1k - $1M cause its retarded and unrealistic. Its not even speculation, its trolling.

It is realistic. Honestly only $1k on the lower part of the spectrum is even pushing it because that is really low.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: Notanon on June 15, 2013, 11:19:01 AM
No improved and simpler method of converting fiat to btc and back, such that the local village idiot can do so easily without getting confused, will mean that the price will just stagnate or decline at worst. Address this and the price will go back up, simple as that. Considering the number of alternative currencies springing up, which some people are naively or arrogantly ignoring, this makes a simple fiat conversion system that will give MtGox and co a run for their money even more critical.

BTC should be what Ripple is, a medium for buying things that allows some degree of privacy and can bypass ludicrous credit card and merchant fees, not an overspeculated pseudoasset like some people treat it to be.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: wachtwoord on June 15, 2013, 12:46:02 PM
No improved and simpler method of converting fiat to btc and back, such that the local village idiot can do so easily without getting confused, will mean that the price will just stagnate or decline at worst. Address this and the price will go back up, simple as that. Considering the number of alternative currencies springing up, which some people are naively or arrogantly ignoring, this makes a simple fiat conversion system that will give MtGox and co a run for their money even more critical.

BTC should be what Ripple is, a medium for buying things that allows some degree of privacy and can bypass ludicrous credit card and merchant fees, not an overspeculated pseudoasset like some people treat it to be.

No, converting fiat is only the currently most prevalent way of acquiring Bitcoins. Soon*, the most prevalent method will instead change to real economic interaction.

* No clue what 'soon' is here though :)


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: semaforo on June 15, 2013, 06:17:04 PM
   It is impossible to think that bitcoin growth will be steady rather than exponential. For the growth not to be exponential, every person who finds out about bitcoin would have to tell only one person about it. Bitcoin's growth cannot help but accelerate.

   100k value for bitcoin sounds as absurd now as the earth being round when you can clearly see it's flat, or the earth rotating around the sun  when you can clearly feel that the earth is still and the sun moves in the sky above sounded at other times in history.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: Odalv on June 15, 2013, 08:25:30 PM
   It is impossible to think that bitcoin growth will be steady rather than exponential. For the growth not to be exponential, every person who finds out about bitcoin would have to tell only one person about it. Bitcoin's growth cannot help but accelerate.

   100k value for bitcoin sounds as absurd now as the earth being round when you can clearly see it's flat, or the earth rotating around the sun  when you can clearly feel that the earth is still and the sun moves in the sky above sounded at other times in history.
+1 :-) lol


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: bassclef on June 15, 2013, 09:11:58 PM
   It is impossible to think that bitcoin growth will be steady rather than exponential. For the growth not to be exponential, every person who finds out about bitcoin would have to tell only one person about it. Bitcoin's growth cannot help but accelerate.

   100k value for bitcoin sounds as absurd now as the earth being round when you can clearly see it's flat, or the earth rotating around the sun  when you can clearly feel that the earth is still and the sun moves in the sky above sounded at other times in history.

I like the way you think.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: legendster on June 15, 2013, 09:13:33 PM


Bitcoins are coming down, and the clones (alt coins) will go up.

There is no limited supply of 'bitcoins' and all it takes is copy and paste, and can create lots of coins.



you mad bro ?


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: johnyj on June 15, 2013, 10:45:35 PM
  It is impossible to think that bitcoin growth will be steady rather than exponential. For the growth not to be exponential, every person who finds out about bitcoin would have to tell only one person about it. Bitcoin's growth cannot help but accelerate.

   100k value for bitcoin sounds as absurd now as the earth being round when you can clearly see it's flat, or the earth rotating around the sun  when you can clearly feel that the earth is still and the sun moves in the sky above sounded at other times in history.

+100
 ;D ;D ;D

However, money has a strange character: Without money nothing can be done, but with only one type of money anything can be done, unless the merchant exclusively require bitcoin payment (just like EU merchants only accepting €), people do not have the motivation to exchange to bitcoin and spend (due to added complexitiy in exchange process), it will take some time for a bitcoin-only economy to build up

But I think this will happen eventually, sooner or later some producer with excessive amount of cash flow and some investment in bitcoin will provide bitcoin-only sale for part of their product line, and that will create a miracle in business history: The more you sell, the more valuable your income will become, and this will create a snowball effect and more and more merchant will join the bitcoin-only sale party


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: jhansen858 on June 16, 2013, 02:28:29 AM
Quote
it has lots of great properties — negligible transaction fees (...)


Bullshit.
My credit card is free of charge for me (as a customer), I don't give a shit if the merchant have to pay an American company for providing this service. But I know, and I care, that everywhere in the country I can use it, without paying any fee. Bitcoins fees are way too high.

Except you don't realize there is a hidden tax.  Merchants pay up to 3%-4% for each transaction.  You think they just eat that cost and pass 0% of it on to you in the form of higher prices?

Sorry to burst the bubble but what you said is simply not correct.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: suryc on June 16, 2013, 03:27:48 AM
Quote
it has lots of great properties — negligible transaction fees (...)


Bullshit.
My credit card is free of charge for me (as a customer), I don't give a shit if the merchant have to pay an American company for providing this service. But I know, and I care, that everywhere in the country I can use it, without paying any fee. Bitcoins fees are way too high.

Except you don't realize there is a hidden tax.  Merchants pay up to 3%-4% for each transaction.  You think they just eat that cost and pass 0% of it on to you in the form of higher prices?

Sorry to burst the bubble but what you said is simply not correct.

I completely agree with your sentiment and I already tried to explain that to him. He doesn't want to understand.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: Frizz23 on June 16, 2013, 08:30:42 AM
My balls should be at 5 billion US$ each!

There are 22 million Bitcoin, but there are only two of my balls -> so very rare thing.

Geez, people! 13,500? Seriously?

As long as I can't pay for a Cheeseburger with Bitcoins it's value is pure speculation.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: painlord2k on June 16, 2013, 12:53:48 PM
As long as I can't pay for a Cheeseburger with Bitcoins it's value is pure speculation.

It was not "until I can pay my pizza, it is just speculation".
http://foodly.com/
http://pizzaforcoins.com/

Or was "until I can pay my bills"?
http://billpayforcoins.com/index.php



Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: ShroomsKit on June 16, 2013, 12:57:00 PM


Bitcoins are coming down, and the clones (alt coins) will go up.

There is no limited supply of 'bitcoins' and all it takes is copy and paste, and can create lots of coins.



So how many million Bitcoins do you have?


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: wachtwoord on June 16, 2013, 01:43:41 PM
My balls should be at 5 billion US$ each!

There are 22 million Bitcoin, but there are only two of my balls -> so very rare thing.

Geez, people! 13,500? Seriously?

As long as I can't pay for a Cheeseburger with Bitcoins it's value is pure speculation.

But (1) it isn't easy to transfer your balls quickly and cheaply, (2) your balls are easily forgeable (I cannot tell the difference with someone else's balls) and (3) it's hard to divide your balls up indefinitely and still be able to tell those are pieces of your balls.

Bitcoins does all of these (and PM accomplishes them better than your balls, though rather imperfect).


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: flavius on June 16, 2013, 01:50:42 PM
you know, I can't say much for bitcoin at it's current time, but I think I'll go ahead and put 10-50 coins on a drive and put it in storage, then not check the price of bitcoin for 20 years.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: wachtwoord on June 16, 2013, 01:52:19 PM
you know, I can't say much for bitcoin at it's current time, but I think I'll go ahead and put 10-50 coins on a drive and put it in storage, then not check the price of bitcoin for 20 years.

Good lad.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: neilol on June 16, 2013, 08:30:51 PM
Its a market in its nascent stages, complexity is to be expected. Do you think WU was easy when they were still using the pony express? Give it 24 months once regulatory issues have been resolved competition will increase, complexity and costs will decrease and WU will be left in the dust.

WU could adapt and adjust, using bitcoin as their means of transfer.

    If WU starts using bitcoin, then I can finally become a professional philanthropist.

I rejected email in 1994. You mean I have to get a computer, learn how to use it, wrap my brain around concepts like "software," figure out how modems work, make a contract with an ISP, and then call tech support any time there's a problem? Why would I go through this ridiculously complicated process when I can just buy some stamps and put a letter in the post box?


     People still write letters today. I'm a bear on email. It's just a matter of time before someone hacks email or the government shuts it down because of all the criminals writing emails. Then we will all go back to letters and the beauty of receiving personal handwritten messages.

This is gold


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: Cluster2k on June 17, 2013, 03:37:01 AM
I personally feel that all threads along the lines of 'bitcoin going to $10k' or 'bitcoins worth $1M' do more harm than good to bitcoin's reputation.  While speculation is fun there are two factors at play: No one can predict the future value of bitcoins with any certainty, and outsiders reading this forum may form the idea that bitcoin is just one huge get-rich-quick scheme full of people sitting and waiting to become millionaires. 


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: semaforo on June 17, 2013, 03:57:57 AM
I personally feel that all threads along the lines of 'bitcoin going to $10k' or 'bitcoins worth $1M' do more harm than good to bitcoin's reputation.  While speculation is fun there are two factors at play: No one can predict the future value of bitcoins with any certainty, and outsiders reading this forum may form the idea that bitcoin is just one huge get-rich-quick scheme full of people sitting and waiting to become millionaires.  

    There should be no argument about the possibility of bitcoin going to 1 million USD. It is possible. If China starts dumping US bonds, bitcoin could be at $1 million tomorrow based on selloffs of forex reserves rather than bitcoin buy up. Of course, then China would lose its biggest export market. Unemployment in China would then cause the Chinese government to collapse, along with the global economy.

      The dollar is overvalued right now. Bitcoin is undervalued. The correction may be fast or slow, but a correction is all but certain. How extreme that correction will be is a matter of debate. We are in "speculation" here- I say let them speculate.

    I say don't sit around and wait to become a millionaire- innovate, understand the potential, help build the infrastructure of bitcoin, and become a millionaire. Then it won't be a get rich scheme but a collective enterprise that depends entirely on the sagacity and motivation of the participants, an enterprise that will create billions in wealth through added efficiency to the global financial system and redistribute billions from inefficient banking and electronic payment institutions. I hope the price crashes a little bit more so we can consolidate the BTC in the hands of people who will be able to wisely reinvest them as the market value grows.
    


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: bitzox on June 17, 2013, 05:49:07 PM
All it would take for bitcoin to be well over 13.5k USD is one central bank deciding that they should put a tiny fraction of a % of their balance sheet in bit coins. If the Fed or the European Central Bank of the BOJ or BOE decided that they may, in the future, need to have the ability to manipulate the fiat/BTC exchange rate they may try to front run other central banks and get in at a relatively low price. Hypothetically speaking if the Fed put 1/10 of 1% of their monthly open market purchases into bitcoin the value of bitcoin would double in a year, not withstanding any other speculation or growth in the bitcoin economy. Change that number to 1% and the bitcoin exchange rate would be doubling every month.

Obviously this is pure speculation but anyone who says that values of 13k or 130k are unrealistic obviously doesn't understand global finance.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: Bitcopia on June 18, 2013, 01:00:36 AM
Bitcoins fees are not too high.

If my credit card would charge me any fee higher than bitcoin I would agree with that.
But considering the fact that the fee with my credit card is 0, I disagree.

Whether or not you realize it you are indirectly paying a fee every time you use your credit card.

I don't. My bank does not charge me anything for providing me a credit card, and using it. Mercants do.
Not to mention that if my credit card got stolen, I can get my money back. If my btc address is stolen, I can't do shit.

Merchants pay credit card fees that average around 2.5-3% of the transaction and that cost is passed on to the consumer (you're kidding yourself if you think it isn't).

The only restriction I have is to pay more than 10 euros with my credit card (else I have to use cash). But the price is the same if I pay with check, credit card, cash, so...

That's why more and more merchants offer cash discounts.

See above.
Not to mention that I can withdrawn cash without being charged any fee.
Not to mention that before paying anything with btc, you have to buy them, and the fees are even greater than btc transaction fee.

Bitcoin fees are negligible compared to that. .0001 btc on a .1btc transaction is only 0.1%
All that is needed is an easy method for mainstream implementation.

That's bullshit again.
Some website said they accept bitcoin, like that "DigiDeals" in Australia. When you want to pay online, guess what:

Quote
Credit or Debit Card (2% processing fee)
  
PayPal (2% processing fee)
  
Bank Transfer
  
Bitcoin (5% processing fee)



Bitcoin fees will always be higher that credit card fees.
Try to figure out why by yourself.

Bitcoin payment processing is 0.99% through BitPay. Merchants pay roughly 2.7% in credit / debit processing fees. When you factor chargebacks in, that number rises to 3 - 10% in transaction costs. While the typical consumer does not understand that a merchant's payment processing costs directly inflate the price that merchant must charge, they will continue to use traditional methods. But when companies that exclusively accept bitcoin (bitcoinstore) are able to undercut other merchants, users will have an incentive to obtain bitcoins to pay for their goods. As bitcoin becomes easier and easier to secure, obtain, and use, the incentive to use them will not need to be as great.

I am curious why you think bitcoin fees will always be higher than credit card fees. When both parties are considered (consumer and merchant), they are significantly lower than credit card fees, and will likely always remain lower. You are speaking from one side of a two sided transaction.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: Crypt_Current on June 18, 2013, 01:53:44 AM
I personally feel that all threads along the lines of 'bitcoin going to $10k' or 'bitcoins worth $1M' do more harm than good to bitcoin's reputation.  While speculation is fun there are two factors at play: No one can predict the future value of bitcoins with any certainty, and outsiders reading this forum may form the idea that bitcoin is just one huge get-rich-quick scheme full of people sitting and waiting to become millionaires. 

Outsiders can form whatever opinion they want -- It won't change the objective truth that Bitcoin represents a monumental, heretofore unprecedented achievement of humanity with regard to its economical transfer of value.  This objective truth combined with the empirical evidence of humanity desiring individual economic freedom in an ultimate sense, assures that crypto-currency in some form will become the de-facto standard for human economic transfer.  It may make little sense then to ascribe any USD or otherwise fiat value to a BTC in that future, but given the facts I think there is no question that said value would be relatively HUGE.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: painlord2k on June 18, 2013, 11:22:30 AM
People continue to compare 2013 correction to 2011 correction.
Try to compare 2012 correction (no one ever talk of it, because it happened when so many were at the beach) with 2013 correction.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/722536/MTgox%2020120215%20-20121231.png
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/722536/MtGox%2020121101%2020120619.png

2012) it run up 400% and fell 50% --> 200% increase
Bitcoin inflation was 25%
Really few ways to use bitcoin
 
2013) it run up 2600% and fell 60%  --> 1000% increase
Bitcoin inflaton 12,5%
A lot more ways to use bitcoin (BitPay is just at what? 4000 merchants?) add the rest and wait for people to really start to adopt BTC as a way to pay for good and services.
We are just starting to heating the engine and moved around the parking lot.

If merchants accepting bitcoins are able to pass them to employees and suppliers (even a small fraction is a good start), the move up will be rocking.
And giving the increasing number of merchants accepting bitcoin, there is an increasing number of people (the merchants themselves) able and willing to have bitcoins and spend them with other merchants.
This should reduce the correction time, building a strong bottom, in just few months. By july-august end we will see a lot of pressure up just for increased adoption.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: XXthetimeisnowXX on June 18, 2013, 03:10:56 PM
Quote
it has lots of great properties — negligible transaction fees (...)


Bullshit.
My credit card is free of charge for me (as a customer), I don't give a shit if the merchant have to pay an American company for providing this service. But I know, and I care, that everywhere in the country I can use it, without paying any fee. Bitcoins fees are way too high.

WTF ARE YOU FOR REAL!?!? of corse you pay for it you jack ass! they jack up the price of things to do this. you think that if they charge the merchant then they wont double that fee and then charge you? fucking retard


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: ThatDGuy on June 18, 2013, 04:17:36 PM
Bitcoin payment processing is 0.99% through BitPay. Merchants pay roughly 2.7% in credit / debit processing fees. When you factor chargebacks in, that number rises to 3 - 10% in transaction costs. While the typical consumer does not understand that a merchant's payment processing costs directly inflate the price that merchant must charge, they will continue to use traditional methods. But when companies that exclusively accept bitcoin (bitcoinstore) are able to undercut other merchants, users will have an incentive to obtain bitcoins to pay for their goods. As bitcoin becomes easier and easier to secure, obtain, and use, the incentive to use them will not need to be as great.

I am curious why you think bitcoin fees will always be higher than credit card fees. When both parties are considered (consumer and merchant), they are significantly lower than credit card fees, and will likely always remain lower. You are speaking from one side of a two sided transaction.

Summed up perfectly.  If this proposed wave starts to hit, BTC is going to get silly.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: semaforo on June 18, 2013, 05:34:53 PM
Quote
it has lots of great properties — negligible transaction fees (...)


Bullshit.
My credit card is free of charge for me (as a customer), I don't give a shit if the merchant have to pay an American company for providing this service. But I know, and I care, that everywhere in the country I can use it, without paying any fee. Bitcoins fees are way too high.

WTF ARE YOU FOR REAL!?!? of corse you pay for it you jack ass! they jack up the price of things to do this. you think that if they charge the merchant then they wont double that fee and then charge you? fucking retard

I think this is a little harsh. I have to point out that many people appreciate retarded people. I think they truly are special, because they express themselves authentically and honestly in a way that few "normal" people can. They are also great for entertainment because of their unique way of thought. They give us perspective we wouldn't otherwise have, which is why I think they should be included in  society rather than hidden away.

You made your point but as someone who frequents this forum at th7e moment, I would request that you show more respect to posters, regardless of how uninformed their views may be...


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: BitChick on June 18, 2013, 06:03:25 PM
I personally feel that all threads along the lines of 'bitcoin going to $10k' or 'bitcoins worth $1M' do more harm than good to bitcoin's reputation.  While speculation is fun there are two factors at play: No one can predict the future value of bitcoins with any certainty, and outsiders reading this forum may form the idea that bitcoin is just one huge get-rich-quick scheme full of people sitting and waiting to become millionaires. 

I am not sure.  If I am honest, I was not really that interested in BTC until my husband explained to me that there was a slight potential for each coin to be worth thousands someday.  Then I became very interested, perhaps with impure motives.  However, upon researching it more I have grown to see that there are so many other benefits.  It really can be liberating understanding the depth of "freedoms" this currency could bring if it gain worldwide adoption.  So, I have other reasons for supporting it now that are not just about "making millions."

So perhaps threads like this can spark an interest in some people that will help fuel the fire that starts growth.  Just my thoughts.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: bitzox on June 18, 2013, 07:37:56 PM
I personally feel that all threads along the lines of 'bitcoin going to $10k' or 'bitcoins worth $1M' do more harm than good to bitcoin's reputation.  While speculation is fun there are two factors at play: No one can predict the future value of bitcoins with any certainty, and outsiders reading this forum may form the idea that bitcoin is just one huge get-rich-quick scheme full of people sitting and waiting to become millionaires. 

Man it would be great if we could limit such topics of discussion to a sub-forum specifically designed and designated for such conversation...someone should tell the mods about this idea  :P


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: 600watt on June 18, 2013, 09:15:58 PM
I personally feel that all threads along the lines of 'bitcoin going to $10k' or 'bitcoins worth $1M' do more harm than good to bitcoin's reputation.  While speculation is fun there are two factors at play: No one can predict the future value of bitcoins with any certainty, and outsiders reading this forum may form the idea that bitcoin is just one huge get-rich-quick scheme full of people sitting and waiting to become millionaires.  

Man it would be great if we could limit such topics of discussion to a sub-forum specifically designed and designated for such conversation...someone should tell the mods about this idea  :P
+

it is like watching tv. if you don´t like the show, don´t watch it.


edit
soon come:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Soyuz_TMA-5_launch.jpg


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: veteranBtc on June 18, 2013, 09:19:52 PM
"In 10 years, bitcoins will either be worth nothing, or a lot more than they are now — there is no middle ground."

I like how this sounds!


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: ElectricMucus on June 18, 2013, 11:26:55 PM
yeah ICBMs make a crater on impact.
I personally feel that all threads along the lines of 'bitcoin going to $10k' or 'bitcoins worth $1M' do more harm than good to bitcoin's reputation.  While speculation is fun there are two factors at play: No one can predict the future value of bitcoins with any certainty, and outsiders reading this forum may form the idea that bitcoin is just one huge get-rich-quick scheme full of people sitting and waiting to become millionaires.  

Man it would be great if we could limit such topics of discussion to a sub-forum specifically designed and designated for such conversation...someone should tell the mods about this idea  :P
+

it is like watching tv. if you don´t like the show, don´t watch it.


edit
soon come:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Soyuz_TMA-5_launch.jpg


ICBMs make a fairly decent crater.

edit:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Peacekeeper-missile-testing.jpg/792px-Peacekeeper-missile-testing.jpg

edit2: Do you understand the gravity of the situation?  ;D


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: johnyj on June 19, 2013, 01:16:18 AM
I personally feel that all threads along the lines of 'bitcoin going to $10k' or 'bitcoins worth $1M' do more harm than good to bitcoin's reputation.  While speculation is fun there are two factors at play: No one can predict the future value of bitcoins with any certainty, and outsiders reading this forum may form the idea that bitcoin is just one huge get-rich-quick scheme full of people sitting and waiting to become millionaires.  

I am not sure.  If I am honest, I was not really that interested in BTC until my husband explained to me that there was a slight potential for each coin to be worth thousands someday.  Then I became very interested, perhaps with impure motives.  However, upon researching it more I have grown to see that there are so many other benefits.  It really can be liberating understanding the depth of "freedoms" this currency could bring if it gain worldwide adoption.  So, I have other reasons for supporting it now that are not just about "making millions."

So perhaps threads like this can spark an interest in some people that will help fuel the fire that starts growth.  Just my thoughts.

Exactly, freedom is the best word to decribe bitcoin, a pure bitcoin economy works like a country without boarder and regulators, a real free market with minimum influence from human factors. Freedom is almost priceless


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: BitChick on June 19, 2013, 02:41:40 AM
I personally feel that all threads along the lines of 'bitcoin going to $10k' or 'bitcoins worth $1M' do more harm than good to bitcoin's reputation.  While speculation is fun there are two factors at play: No one can predict the future value of bitcoins with any certainty, and outsiders reading this forum may form the idea that bitcoin is just one huge get-rich-quick scheme full of people sitting and waiting to become millionaires.  

I am not sure.  If I am honest, I was not really that interested in BTC until my husband explained to me that there was a slight potential for each coin to be worth thousands someday.  Then I became very interested, perhaps with impure motives.  However, upon researching it more I have grown to see that there are so many other benefits.  It really can be liberating understanding the depth of "freedoms" this currency could bring if it gain worldwide adoption.  So, I have other reasons for supporting it now that are not just about "making millions."

So perhaps threads like this can spark an interest in some people that will help fuel the fire that starts growth.  Just my thoughts.

Exactly, freedom is the best word to decribe bitcoin, a pure bitcoin economy works like a country without boarder and regulators, a real free market with minimum influence from human factors. Freedom is almost priceless

If people get a taste of the "freedoms" bitcoin can bring, when it is used more places and more often, that is when we will really begin to see how revolutionary this all is and I believe 1 BTC could easily be worth $13,500 if not more.   Until then, I will just speculate a little with my BTC, spend a few, hold most and dream of the day. ;)


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: Cluster2k on June 19, 2013, 12:31:06 PM
I personally feel that all threads along the lines of 'bitcoin going to $10k' or 'bitcoins worth $1M' do more harm than good to bitcoin's reputation.  While speculation is fun there are two factors at play: No one can predict the future value of bitcoins with any certainty, and outsiders reading this forum may form the idea that bitcoin is just one huge get-rich-quick scheme full of people sitting and waiting to become millionaires. 

Man it would be great if we could limit such topics of discussion to a sub-forum specifically designed and designated for such conversation...someone should tell the mods about this idea  :P

The surprising thing is I didn't suggest such conversations should be banned or moved to another section.  I merely stated my belief that people wildly speculating about huge price increases (and thus their own personal gain) are not helpful in the grand scheme of things.  I mean hey, bring it on.  I'd like to pay off my mortgage some day for running a GPU app back in 2011.  I'm also aware that promoting such beliefs draws negative opinions from the wider community.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: Le Happy Merchant on June 20, 2013, 03:25:29 AM
Do you understand the gravity of the situation?  ;D

Its a rainbow


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: Crypt_Current on June 20, 2013, 05:19:53 AM
I personally feel that all threads along the lines of 'bitcoin going to $10k' or 'bitcoins worth $1M' do more harm than good to bitcoin's reputation.  While speculation is fun there are two factors at play: No one can predict the future value of bitcoins with any certainty, and outsiders reading this forum may form the idea that bitcoin is just one huge get-rich-quick scheme full of people sitting and waiting to become millionaires. 

Man it would be great if we could limit such topics of discussion to a sub-forum specifically designed and designated for such conversation...someone should tell the mods about this idea  :P

The surprising thing is I didn't suggest such conversations should be banned or moved to another section.  I merely stated my belief that people wildly speculating about huge price increases (and thus their own personal gain) are not helpful in the grand scheme of things.  I mean hey, bring it on.  I'd like to pay off my mortgage some day for running a GPU app back in 2011.  I'm also aware that promoting such beliefs draws negative opinions from the wider community.

The wider community had negative opinions of Paypal back when they were invented, yet look how things ended up (the present).  A revolutionary technology will be inevitably adopted, despite any opinion of any majority.  Technical superiority + elegance / convenience of use = rule in this new aeon.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: jubalix on June 22, 2013, 12:17:03 AM
have a graph

http://i44.tinypic.com/2ql6akm.png


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: niothor on June 22, 2013, 01:24:34 AM
Mass Adoption , here we comeeeee

http://i40.tinypic.com/spjgw0.jpg


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: semaforo on June 22, 2013, 03:15:45 AM
It took hundreds of years between the first printing press and mass literacy...


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: jubalix on June 22, 2013, 08:09:47 AM
It took hundreds of years between the first printing press and mass literacy...

except in korea.

also btc has many financial advantages in a short time frame, reading did not.


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: keewee on June 23, 2013, 01:39:39 AM
Mass Adoption , here we comeeeee

http://i40.tinypic.com/spjgw0.jpg

That's a very short timeframe showing the drop in volume since the bubble popped. A better timeframe would be the last six months and that shows that USD transaction volumes are still up over 5x what they were in January this year. How low it will go is anyone's guess but I think it's unlikely to return to January levels

http://i.imgur.com/zm1ySgO.png


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: flavius on June 23, 2013, 01:40:57 AM
dfgjai


Title: Re: Bitcoin should be at $13,500 ?
Post by: redrider on June 27, 2013, 08:40:06 PM
i figure it should be about $7500 right now as its at least 400 times more rare than gold and can be made invisible and teleported anywhere.