Bitcoin Forum

The global empire is tired.  Its real economic output is being surpassed by new, rising powers.  It has issued so much debt that there's no hope of really paying it back.  Its people are used to the good life and are less productive than before, and its prices are too high and can't come down without a disaster.  It has been hit by financial crisis after financial crisis.  Everyone in the know is saying the empire's days are numbered.

But the empire has one last trick.  It manages to get the bankers and politicians in all major economies to change their monetary system so totally that the empire is suddenly much wealthier.  (Don't ask me why those countries agreed to it!)  The empire lasts another half-century in splendor and comfort.

2010s America?  Good guess, but it was 1870s Britain.  Britain talked the US, Germany and France into abandoning silver as money and using gold exclusively.  The Bank of England, which had gold but not silver, suddenly got rich, relatively.

Perhaps, the reason why the US and Germany foolishly abandoned silver was , like Napoleon said, bankers have no loyalty to their countries.

We've seen this movie before.  Substitute cryptocurrencies for gold, and gold for silver, and it's the same script.  More or less.  I suspect it will end the same way.

Bitcoin is limited in its nature and has the ability to keep track record of everything, it cannot be manipulated as gold, silver, and anything that is based upon them, because it's not mathematically verified.

I see BTC as the new gold, and second layer networks would allow for a "fiat done right" solution for everyday usage.

The current Empire will either pick a big position in Bitcoin, or will put on a fight trying to destroy Bitcoin, there are no grays here to my knowledge.

However, it is subject to the simple manipulation that gold suffered under the gold standard: if the central bank has enough of it, it can keep selling it to keep the price constant.  If a saver owns gold/Bitcoin, they have a return of zero and miss out on the interest payment of state-issued currencies.

(Of course, this will only happen after Bitcoin has reached a price much higher than today's.)

The blockchain tracks all transactions, yes, but no one knows who is behind each transaction.  Only the Bitcoin addresses are public.

Bitcoin is limited in its nature and has the ability to keep track record of everything, it cannot be manipulated as gold, silver, and anything that is based upon them, because it's not mathematically verified.

I see BTC as the new gold, and second layer networks would allow for a "fiat done right" solution for everyday usage.

The current Empire will either pick a big position in Bitcoin, or will put on a fight trying to destroy Bitcoin, there are no grays here to my knowledge.
[/quote]

You are right about that. bitcoin is limited in nature and right now every transaction makes the supply less and with less supply the price will get higher, but about the thing that bitcoin cannot be manipulated, i somehow disagree with this, well not fully disagreeing but just somehow. I think that there has been some manipulation that happened in the past, some people with huge amount of money dumping and buying i guess that is an act of manipulation. So to say, somehow bitcoin can be manipulated.

If Bitcoin could not be manipulated, I'm pretty certain it would be illegal by now.  The state-bank alliance doesn't want a money that competes with theirs.  I think the reason why Bitcoin is doing well is that it will ultimately help the Western elites, in a huge way.

I think most of us agree a big crash is coming?

The only questions may be: when? And: what the planned end game is for a post crash world?   ???

There are conspiracy theorists who believe a deliberate crash is intended to setup a one world government. After the next massive bust cycle, bankers could step in and reorganize. They control the wealth inside the global network of tax shelters. That gives them leverage over many world leaders who will agree to anything they propose.

I would like to hear alternate theories. Its an interesting topic. But not much is being said about it.

Nowadays,such doubts are arising more that bitcoin would have been created by the group which wants a one world order to be established in future.Already,some groups are said to have influencing the world economy and dominating.Such doubt arises since no one actually knows who satoshi is and what forced him to create such a coin which could not be even challenged by any governments.

The problem like always is knowing when things like this are going to happen, we know the current system cannot go forever but since they can manipulate the system so well the system could last for many more decades, but once it is over it is obvious the ones in power are going to try to impose a system that benefits them and not the average people, so I think they are going to try to create a world currency, one government and the harmonization of taxes.

It will be very hard to do. In order to be able to buy goods with bitcoins need someone to made these products. All manufacturers are working only for Fiat. The government will never let bitcoin in the real economy. I think that bitcoin will always be an exotic currency has no official status. Unless of course bitcoin will not destroy the internal contradictions.

After 1929 and 2008, the international state-bank alliance that the Western elites put together was under pressure to break apart, not come together.  (E.g. France played a key role in delaying a bank bailout in 1931 and the resulting global bank run led to the true Great Depression.)

The elites might inflate a bubble which will inevitably crash, and they might deliberately bust a bubble in a country they want to punish or pressure, but I don't see them deliberately pricking any major bubble.  The reason is that the economic pain that comes as a result will tend to increase awareness and anger towards them.

Cryptocurrencies won't contribute to the reconstruction, rather they will further degrade the global economy. Why?
No doubt everyone wants to see his nation growing and strengthening but not everyone can contribute to that hugely. It is always government or banks that take steps in the field of economic reforms. But if we substitute the concept of state's money to people's money, government or banks will no longer be the biggest player in economic construction as cryptocurrencies are already distributed among group of people.
The current holders will become new ultra-rich and non-holders will become poor. As a result, economy will crack drastically.

I think such doubts are unfounded, why the elites will go through he trouble of creating something so difficult to control, just look at the Internet despite the censorship you can say almost anything you want on the Internet, there is almost a complete freedom of speech which is not something the elites would want, bitcoin is the same it gives us freedoms we never had, why create such a coin?

Yeah, I'm really into this idea of - "If Bitcoin could not be manipulated, I'm pretty certain it would be illegal by now".  

There could be an undertune of why bitcoin has not got the hammer of major world power legislation and the imminent manipulation could be the reason and looming but I think why this is taking time is because of the financial benefit and bitcoin is not the only crypto.

The fundamental thing of this coin market is speculation and manipulation. That's how the whales make money from us. They speculates our emotions and market perspective and then they make their movements in the market to generate huge money.

But I don't see bitcoin as only a currency here.

That is the power of bitcoin. There are many world corporates and other tried as much they can to troll the bitcoin but it shows potential continuously. If bitcoin reached to all set of people then all banks has to closed. If that situation comes to market, then people like rockerfeller will shut his everything won't go to fight with bitcoin again.
I expect the satoshi should not reveal himself to the real world. His life might threaten or corporate giants may tried to get the patent of bitcoin. That should not happen anytime. It will be remain like how computer reached to all the people after charles babbage invention. It should reach more than that with the independent medium.

I read and know at least a dozen of conspiracy theories about Bitcoin... but this is something new.

Actually, if you are early adopter, you must embrace such a theory and hope to be true. Then you will have significant monetary power.

Man this is a speculation even bigger than the speculation among the crypto markets!
First crypto currencies will never replace fiat, so the rich (banks) are not really threaten by crypto. This will only force them to adjust their fees and taxes, because a decent alternative to payments and investments is emerging and they have to adapt. Also don't forget that the marketcap of all crypto, and not just bitcoin is at 300B, and the marketcap of fiat is on the trillion figure, so no, the rich are not getting poor. Also if bitcoin was going to replace the fiat system, and that is something that will never happen of course, the rich could still by more bitcoin than anyone else, so they would still be richer.

Nothing is about to change on that perspective. A new asset was born, and that only made those who first got into it richer, and nothing else. That is perfectly normal, and every time someone creates something new and innovative that gets very popular, that person will get richer.
Steve Jobs got rich, Bill Gates got rich, Mark Zuckerberg got rich, everyone involved in google got rich, and so on.

Economy will not crack because of bitcoin.

Remember, gold and silver were decentralized, limited-supply, and non-state-issued, just like cryptos.  But for most of the time since the 1500s, the imperial elites controlled the world by controlling money/debt, pretty much the same way they do under 'fiat' money.

The key is how much the elites own.  In the old days, they owned a lot of gold/silver.  By 1971, they didn't have enough.  With cryptos, if they go in with a plan from the beginning, they will own enough to control the whole system.  (The US legitimized Bitcoin around 2013, I believe.  At that time the price was under $100.)

There's one aspect of the system that most people aren't aware of, at least consciously:

The Western/global elites are a state-bank international alliance.  They don't have enough unified power to run the world by hard power alone.  Since the 1500s, they've always ruled by a combination of hard and soft power.

The 'soft power' part is the perception by the world that the imperial center has the most respect for free markets, democracy, freedom, etc.  (A large part of this is true, but the story is still basically deceptive.)

Only with the combination of soft and hard power can they dominate the world.

'State-free' cryptocurrency becomes an almost perfect way for them to subdue their rivals (like Russia and China) which are working to undermine the dollar-based world system.  It is in effect an alliance with a libertarian idea.  It's not that the Western elites love this idea (or democracy and freedom, really).  It's that they need an ally to strengthen themselves.

If the Western elites have bought up enough crypto coins, they will basically be able to control a money system based on the coins.  They did this with gold and silver for centuries.

I think the banks will be fine.  Nothing will change; Bitcoin will be a store of value that people will rush into when the system is in crisis, but most of the time the elites will manipulate things so Bitcoin's rate of return will be less than the interest on state-issued money.

Remember, most of the time, state-issued money earned a positive interest, and much of the time it even earned a positive real rate of return (i.e. interest rate is higher than inflation.)  Gold was held to a return of zero for hundreds of years.  The crypto-based system, I suspect, will work basically like gold and silver standards, though it won't look the same.  (The elites will want to make it appear different and new.)

I think you're basically right about what the end result will look like.

In the big picture, I think the elites are simply leaving the 40+ years of experiment with 'pure fiat money' and returning to a tried-and-true, centuries-old system of allying with a non-state money to strengthen and stabilize their own money.

The old system was called the gold/silver standard.  The elites will have a totally new-sounding story for the new system, but it will basically be the same thing.  It will be a more stable version of an elite-controlled system.

The new story won't be the old 'gold is money and state money is debt.'  It might be 'cryptos are what people want, and governments and central banks must get their acts together to compete with these new monies.'

But trust me, underneath, it will work the same way.

It is sad, but true, that the elites will always control the world, as long as most people don't really understand the basics of money.

But not all is lost.  I believe strongly that, for every bit of additional awareness by the public, the elites will suffer a bit more constraint.  It will be a very long struggle but it will eventually be won.

I guess we may never know who Satoshi is, but the game that the global imperial elites are playing, using cryptocurrency, appears to be the same they've been playing for hundreds of years:

Control and manipulate the deepest elements of the world system, ie money, and make the more superficial elements appear in line with Enlightenment values (e.g. freedom, democracy and transparency).  They do this by allying with countries that have good Enlightenment traditions, and with elements (like Bitcoin!) that help individual freedom.

Thus, their manipulation is hidden, because most people don't really understand money, but their promotion of Enlightenment values is public, and they look very good, which enhances their power further.

The elites are unbeatable. Even if you defeat some of them, another people will appear and become the new elite. I'm not blaming rich people, I'm blaming those who want to make the maintenance of precariousness in the world to continue ruling it. Those who keep people ignorant and imbecilized.

At least with Crypto-Currency we have a decentralized system that makes the monetary communication among people from different countries easier and cheaper, but once this decentralization is over, all the rest is over too... And if you see, most people are alienated about it, less than 2% or 3% of world's population uses Crypto-Currency, how could the elites lose power with so insignifcant numbers against them?

Even if it is the same script, you are still looking at adding another hundred or so years onto the empire's lifespan. That's more than enough time to come up with something else and extend the life more. I personally think that Bitcoin is just a system that the governments will look to exploit in the future, and it's not something design to directly increase the life of any empire. Such is with most things, really. It's not built for an authoritative figure to exploit but most of the time they will find a way to do so.

The market of Bitcoin can be manipulated, look at the reaction when someone sayed in the chat of an exchange that Satoshi is dead, suddenly the price went don and it was not even a rumor.

Absolutely agreed, we have to assume Bitcoin was not originally designed to help the empire.  It's only an unsubstantiated theory that Bitcoin was created by the Western elites in secret.

My way of looking at the 'finding a way to exploit' issue is that the modern global empire doesn't have enough hard power to control the world (especially since the populations at the center of the empire tend to like their freedoms.)  Its modus operandi is therefore to make alliances with the ideas, institutions, inventions, etc. that support freedom.  Thus, the hard and soft power together, is enough to control the world.

It's like this with Bitcoin, and with institutions of freedom and democracy.

I think that BTC is not the masterplan of a Government or a bank/ multiple banks, would just make no sense to give away the power they have in the current situation (controlling money).

BUT, I think a Bank/Government/Company which accepts BTC as a payment, in the beginning, will profit enormously because of the increasing value of BTC. So, maby, if the US will not accept BTC as a currency for a very long time, but Russia does, it might boost the economy of Russia and help it to overcome the US in power (very theoretical example, I think it´s not very likely to happen)

This was basically Jamie Dimon's point when he said Bitcoin would get nowhere.

However, there *is* a way for the Western elites to profit by making alliances with a decentralized money.  They did that with gold and silver for centuries.  In fact, I would argue that it is more preferable to them than the current 'fiat' system (since the last 40 years of 'fiat money' were among the most financially unstable decades of modern history.)

So, in a sense, the appearance of Bitcoin was perfect for them, if they didn't plant it themselves.  That might be why Bitcoin has done so well.

I was shocked when I read your topic because I noticed that you are revealing the truth in your own side. It is so much suspicious if the government held bitcoin. So far, I knew that bitcoin is decentralized. We can say that what is happening in this earth are full of scripts and foolishness. Government wants to manipulate the people.  The circulation of everything is on the hand of them. Meaning to say, we like it or not, it will end the way they want. As I can see, we have not to worry because I think, using of cryptocurrency will prevent the burning of golds. Cryptocurrency will help our mother earth.

it seems that this is not a game, because bitcoin is a digital currency that is made to answer the future of reducing circulation of paper money, we can become rich because of buying bitcoin at cheap prices and sell it when the price is expensive.

My own side?  Not sure what you meant...

Remember, gold and silver are decentralized monies too.  The only difference with Bitcoin is that Bitcoin is still cheap and unknown enough for the elites to acquire lots of it without driving the price too high.

And yes, the alliance political and financial will probably get their way most of the time, in the foreseeable future.

But, as I mentioned before, there's no total victory and defeat in this battle, but always somewhere in between.  Every little bit more that the public know about the system will put a little more constraint on the ability of the elites to control their system.

That is because monetary manipulation is based on mass ignorance about money.  Getting rid of one set of elites will only change the cast, not the action.

But once the ignorance is reduced or eliminated (say, when people finally wake up and demand total simplicity in money and finance), then the action will have to change.


Like the mainstream media?  (Seems strange that there's a general war in the Middle East, started by the US deep state, and all that the media talk about is the FISA memo.)