Bitcoin Forum

Being totally off of any laws does allow for way more freedom. This is a huge plus. But, a little while ago I was approached about rigging my lottery and splitting the winnings. (apparently they missed the part where it's impossible) I think the most interesting thing they said was:

-only remaining anonymous because I promised before the conversation expecting some type of business deal...

I didn't really think about that till then. The double edge sword of using the argument "it's not recognized by law anyway as currency". Because it's not recognized as currency by law emboldens some to try to steal. Regrettably this wild freedom also has it's cost. Probably more scammers and thieves.

Myself, I'd probably pick total freedom even with this cost. IMHO it's worth it.
edit: I just wish we could still have the freedom but still punish those who do steal

As you say, everything has its goods and bads.

But in this case, you are being unfair towards liberty. The government is imposing a monopolly on justice therefore making it impossible for private justice companies to appear and deal with this type of situations.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12357005

Just because our cryptochips aren't used exclusively for poker doesn't mean a theft of $500,000 worth of data is not theft.

-MarkM-

I think in most jurisdictions, promising goods and services you know you won't deliver is considered fraud. It does not matter if these "goods" are recognized as a currency or not. I am using that reasoning to avoid the bitcoin ponzi scheme (I think participating in a ponzi scheme, disclosed or not, is illegal in my jurisdiction).

I think in the US they consider wire fraud more serious because it happens remotely and as such is scary.

Good point. I'm more a computer nerd and not well versed in politics! ;)

A real engative for miners: you all do tax fraud ;)

If bitcoins are not a currency, then they are a good. if they are a good, then all kinds of transactional taxes apply. in the US you may have to charge sales tax, in europe a "miner" is basically "creating" bitcoins which, if they are a good, require VAT to be collected on a sale. SIGNIFICANT disadvantage - suddenly you loose a significant part, theoretically, of your income, unless you sell them out of europe ;)

Seems to me that it is possible and in fact not uncommon to cheat people using systems that are, in theory, lawful and supposedly regulated.

Google 'redefining systemic risk' for a very interesting vid.  During the dot-com (which is the first time I ever had any money) It became clear to me that the SEC's purpose in life is to hold 'normal' down while they are ass-raped by the SEC's hedge fund owners.  I went with PM's instead.

I have vastly more confidence in bitcoin than I do in anything which is officially protected by the US corp/gov system.  bitcoin is actually remarkably simple and straightforward.  And are proving themselves to be quite robust under what would be the equivalent of a nuclear bomb in most systems (that is, the loss of 90% of the exchange platforms, huge thefts, early adopters with massive holdings, etc.)

People cannot be trusted. This is why the bible was invented.

The bible exists it order to control people from justifying behaviors without moral consequence.

It's why the 10 commandments were adopted.

Just because you CAN kill people, it doesn't mean you should.

But people aren't that smart or responsible.

So the only thing smart and responsible to do to control people was to tell them that an imaginary force called GOD was watching them at all times and that they'd be punished for wrong-doing.

Viola! Murders go down.


Remember folks: thou shall not steal. It's fun when you do it to other people, it's not fun when other people do it to you.

I, in my capacity as Digitalis Data Services, provide data services, such as the manipulation of data.

Were I to sell a program, Nova Scotia and/or Canada sales taxes, lately combined it seems as "GST" would be chargeable. However were I to fix some flaw in a program or correct some inadequacy of a database, a data field, a variable's value etc etc etc, that kind of service is, 'they' assured me, not subject to such tax.

-MarkM- (I'd still owe income tax if I earned enough in a year to be so rich I'd owe them instead of them paying me via GST rebates etc.)

A trade with bitcoins is protected by the law exactly like a trade with gold or what else

If i sign a contract where i exchange gold for bitcoin and you take the gold and run away without paying, well, law will protect me.

I operate a mining business: I produce a commodity for which I am paid in U.S. Dollars. This is no different from being a farmer or mining actual gold. If I hold some of my BTC it's roughly the same as keeping some of my crops/gold for personal use or as savings. All of the above scenarios have specific tax statutes which apply to them and which should apply to bitcoin until such time as it becomes regulated otherwise. Since tax law currently views me in the same light as a farmer or (gold) miner, my taxes will be prepared and paid in precisely the same manner.

For investors, it's much the same as trading stocks, bonds, commodities or FOREX. Gains are not considered "realized" until BTC are converted back into USD and captial gains taxes are to be paid on any realized gains as normal.

I don't understand why everyone thinks of bitcoin any differently right now. It's essentially the same as a commodity market: people produce it, people use it as an investment vehicle and people use it for barter - there are specific tax laws for each and every one of these scenarios (at least in the U.S.) with regard to other commodities and at present they're quite likely to apply directly to bitcoin.

OP:  .... And having things like TOR around allows for child rapists and murders to communicate with each other.  Theoretically, a silk road human/sex trafficking market could emerge (or already exist).

The down side to privacy and freedom is that the bad guys also have it.  You have to decide for yourself if this is something you can live with.

I know. I think the advantages out weigh the disadvantages. I was just stating ONE disadvantage to having no laws laying out exactly what bitcoins are. People will use the argument - well it's digital toy money. I know it's a bullshit justification. I'm happy as long as bitcoins are recognized as "property with value" and that thieves are prosecuted if found.

Exactly as I say ;) Gold is VAT taxed in europe ;) Ouch.

This is potentially a critical area. I am in the same problematic area here, things still being under review in my accountant's office ;)

You practically don't need courts of law of you have escrow and GPG web of trust.

Whoever sent you that message is a moron. I've been involved in gaming in other unregulated places such as Second Life and Avination, and i can tell you this: the lack of regulation does attract dishonest people, however the ones that keep their games honest and provide good service make a lot of money in the long run (so much more that its totally counterproductive to cheat).

Another advantage of noregulation, the honest game owners are able to provide MUCH HIGHER payback-ratio than you'll find on any online casinos (because they don't have to spend annual fees on licensing, and countless amounts of hours auditing). Any regular player will quickly realize if a game is rigged or if it's fair.

I wonder what the heck they thought they were bringing to the table.   If you planned to cheat,  why split it etc.... and who could trust them and why should they trust you for a planned cheat,  lol...

In any case,  I think he is wrong,  I think in any common law jurisdiction at least,  the existing case law would make it theft/fraud.  Legal tender does not need to exchange hands for this.  Else seems thieves would be running rampant, as long as they just made sure not to touch those worthless dollars.

I would promise confidentiality to someone ONLY contingent on their offering something legitimate. If they offer to run a blatant scam, I no longer consider it (or their identity) confidential.

You punish them by imposing opportunity costs. You refuse to do business with them in the future and you warn others to do the same. If this seems inadequate, all the more reason to prevent fraud and theft in the first place.

You have no responsibility to someone trying to commit fraud. If I tell you to promise to keep a secret, and then reveal to you that my secret is that I am a lifetime conman or a serial killer, you do not have a responsibility to keep my secret.

On the contrary, you have a responsibility to let people know who is attempting this fraud, so that people may protect themselves from this scum. He's likely conning unwitting people in the Bitcoin Marketplace right now.

So, who is it?

I don't know. They didn't actually do it but expressed their interest in doing it. I honestly don't know what to think. Part of me would feel guilty when I agreed to speak candidly the other part tells me to say something to protect others. But even then they would just change username anyways, so would it actually help? Hmmm.....I need time and help to think this one through... I DO NOT like breaking my word!

Ok, the person has contacted me in a panic by email. He is really sorry and having anxiety attacks about it. From looking at his posts he doesn't seem to be scamming people. He felt desperate and explained why. His identity isn't really anonymous and after looking through some stuff it looks like they were telling the truth. He has promised to not try it again and that he was in a moment of weakness and thought it would fix his situation.

I know he could be lying. But I worry what if he wasn't and I told? But he truly seem scared of an internet mob and is sorry. I'm satisfied and I'll just have to have faith he was honest in the end. And to that person: Learn from this. Making bad choices WILL catch up to you. And keep your promise or you will make a fool of us both.

And now back to our scheduled discussion....

He's only in a panic about being caught. Where were the anxiety attacks when he was hatching the scheme?

It will be up to him to recover his reputation through honest transactions.

I think it is more like stealing Euros or Yens in America. It's not the officially recognized currency, businesses are not forced by law to accept them. But does it make stealing them irrelevant? Of course not!

Ya for sure. I think once we start seeing people go to jail for stealing BTC the people who think it's "just world of warcraft type coins" will probably go away once they see that there is real consequences for their actions...

Breaking into computers and vandalism are crimes anyway, no matter whether anybody recognizes the value of any data.

...and whether or not bitcoin is a currency at all is irrelevant. Artwork isn't recognized as currency, nor is its exact value determinable but stealing them isn't irrelevant!! So long as the government recognizes that Bitcoin has SOME value as an asset, stealing it can be dealt with just as seriously as theft of a piece of art.

Yes, and the value is objectively measurable, because you can argue that it takes a certain amount of value ($15+ or so) to get new bitcoins (because you can't create them out of thin air technically, and people want that much money for them).

 ;D Let me see: someone feels guilty of not paying taxes on Bitcoin? This is beyond ridicolous. What's the whole point of creating an anarchist cryptogeek currency? To go kissing Uncle Scam's ass once again? Puh-leeaze! (Feel free to confess your torts to the IRS if that will make you feel better, though).

About the "protection" of the law, it's not intended for you. That should be clear at this point.

Some people believe that governments can help people pool their resources to achieve thing they or the free-market wouldn't achieve alone. It is obvious that with the unclear status of bitcoin everyone can use their discretion.

You choose if you want to report it as capital gains, hobby income, or commodity trading. If the Government comes around and makes some kind of ruling on the issue, you can re-file your taxes with the corrected numbers. Refiling may be more painful if you actually owe a large sum of money you did not declare already.

Thou shalt not steal. The government hates competition.