Bitcoin Forum

If you dont know about bitcoin plus its a javascript cpu mining "pool", which obviously pays out small small amounts of BTC. So ive had it running at the office for a few weeks and amassed a fortune of 0.02 btc. Not much, but hey, i like free bitcoins.

Anyhow here comes my rant:

IMHO this is a complete scam, as the owner claims that he needs to discount 0.01 btc for transaction fees. This is absolutely ridiculous given that it takes a solid week to generate 0.01 btc with his software. So basically he just rips everyone off and prolly keeps most if not all bitcoins to himself. Might seem like small amounts, but added up its probably a NICE bounty.

Id like to give the owner a chance to defend his policies and site, so bitcoin plus dude if  youre a member of the community, speak up!

"a few weeks and amassed a fortune of 0.02 btc" lol

Donny or someone representing that site really really needs to come through.

Just do some simple math and compare. a quad core gives about 14 mhs or so and will destroy it quickly at that rate. So that is 1/20th of a Hd5830 which will atm produce .24btc a day. By use of a simple ratio, thats about 0.012 a day. But wait. Your not using a 5830 and this dosent work in ratio at all. So in reality, due to your small shares, your are probably getting half that at 0.006btc a day. Also, im willing to bet your not using a quadcore cpu because most offices dont have one. And if you are using it, the computer would be unusable at that speed, so lets just say at the best case scenario that you are mining for 16 hours a day. You would be getting now 0.004btc a day. If you are only using half the cores, you would be getting 0.003btc a day if your mining nonstop.

So by my calculations, you are using a mid range intel, probably a P4HT or a Core2Duo. Sound right? If so, then your "mass fortune" is all you earned. Get a gpu

fantastic

He really is using an outdated model - the maximum forced tx fees are 0.0005, in most circumstances.

Remember the bitcoin client still is set default to .01 btc for all the previous client versions. The new client is barely a couple weeks old.

I don't think you can call this a scam just because he hasn't updated his client yet. Yes he should update his policies and fees but don't go muddying his reputation by calling it a scam just because he hasn't yet.

I agree. See the thread I started at http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=17099.0 for more.

this site was talked about on the newbies forum. the page doesn't stay open. it eventually logs you out after a few minutes. either it's a scam or just a poorly coded setup.

Jesus! This site needs a harder to push "scammer" button!

These folks jump into pushing "SCAM" out of the bitcoin network fee, which happens to be 0.01 btc except in the last versions when it changed to 0.0005 btc.

And go around calling "scammers" and "robbers" over cents... get real!

Even if transaction fees weren't the case, it's not really any more of a scam than deepbit charging 3%

If you install that js miner on a decent hit website you make it a big target.
So, you better know what you are doing.

I've been using it pretty much since it started, mining 24/7 on a quad and 2 core 2 duo desktops (all 64 bit linux). I've also had about 7 other core 2 duo desktops (again all 64 bit linux) adding to that at weekends. Net result? Very little -- about 0.20BTC roughly.

But as has been pointed out, this is largely due to the inefficiency of the applet used: it's a CPU miner, not a GPU miner.

That said, the 0.01 transaction fees are a relatively new feature, and since they were introduced so quickly, they should have been reversed to 0.0005 equally quickly in my opinion. On top of that, the embedded miner earns the owner about 17% as I recall, so this guy is making a reasonable cut even if it is not a huge net total.

My biggest gripe, though, is that the payout is decreased every 2 weeks, supposedly as an "alternative" to the difficulty increasing. The explanation is that rather than increasing the difficulty, the payout is decreased instead. I have never understood the maths or logic behind that, and from my experiences of watching the mining on these machines, the difficulty indeed does increase (or more specifically, the frequency of payouts decreases) in conjunction with the payout value lowering. So this is a double-whammy: a reduction in payout amount, and a reduction in payout frequency. That annoys me a lot.

if you think it's a scam, stop using it!

rocket science it is not.

Don't know what version of bitcoind and OS are they running, the latest builds nags if they're using Debian 5 for an instance, so their fee may still be 0.01.
Anyway, CPU mining is inefficient and can't compete with GPU mining. So any possible earnings of CPU mining pools will be small.

If anything, this just points out the potential problems of pool-mining. You are at the mercy of the operator, who sets the fees and such. Like others have stated, you have two possible choices. One, just quit, or Two - set up your own. That is just the way it is.

While I agree with you that the leap to use the word 'scam' isn't helpful
- neither I think is the implied attitude that 'cents' or even tiny fractions thereof don't matter.
They matter a great deal to new bitcoin users - who may have about 0.01BTC total and are interested in trying out the system.

Really - I think many must have walked away from bitcoin because it feels like their wallet is just being eaten up by fees - just like the ordinary banking systems.

I know bitcoin isn't really optimised for microtransactions, but due to the uneven wealth distribution - this is already a problem for uptake.

julz,

If you just have cents, you'll be eaten by fees no matter where in Earth. Is like a poker player with low stack being eaten by the blinds...

Just that I found somewhat nearly funny some guys come out like shouting scammer at some one or "call the «bitpolice» this address ALHLH12kbdjkbk12334... just robbed me 0.32 btc!!!!".
But I understand your point, back on that mtgox mess I lost over 20 btc and still didn't bother or complaint much (lesson learned: not use the same u:p combo in more than 1 site), as I've much more, but for someone with 20'something that would be almost all or all of what he have.

It's not a scam. But it is a poor deal.

tim, the set up it seems like you have, means that maybe there is a way to do a mini-pool of mining over just the computers you have, I believe that can be done and people in the forums would help with that.

Not scam just poorly run and the issue was the inherit fee in the system.

Real life counterpart:
I go to shop by something for 0.98€, then I pay it with 1€ coin, I don't get my 2 cents back, as Finland don't use those. I'm not screaming scam, I just accept it...

Sorry, but it is a scam! Not only a scam but a strike of genius, too!

Here is the reason why:

1.) After your first payout(s) you try to transfer to your wallet whatever little you "mined"

=> This is the first time EVER that you're informed that the minimum transfer is 0.01 BTC
=> To the newbie, who just got his/her very first BTC this is frustrating but somewhat understandable, so you keep your machine running till the total of all your payouts exceed 0.01 BTC

2.) Second transfer attempt:
Now, the proud owner of 0.01x BTC finally wants to transfer the coins to his/her wallet. And BAM:
Now you get informed (FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER AGIAN) that you have to pay a 0.01 BTC transfer fee and that any transaction has to be a multiple of 0.01 BTC (i. e. that you have to "mine" at least 0.02 BTC and losing half of it to transfer fees).

=> At this point the devestated newbie realizes that this is not a fun way to start mining and stops using the service, leaving the owner with hundreds if not thousands of left newbie accounts

If the owner would clearly state that:

a) minimum transfer is 0.02 BTC (with a 0.01 BTC transaction fee)
b) transfers are possible only as multiples of 0.01 BTC

THEN it would be a poor deal.

This way it is utter scam!

That's just lack of information. NOT A SCAM damn it!

Gosh, these folks are doing a lot of noise out of 0,15 cents (at current rate)... are you 9 yo kids or what?!

if it's a scam how is he making money..I think it's a good idea I just learned about this now lol

can you open more than one page? 8)

Yes, but it achieves nothing. Your CPU is maxed out to 100% by the applet anyway, so opening further pages just results in the same computing power but split across multiple applets. Ergo achieved nothing.

You can of course open the multiple pages on different computers. That's what I do, and indeed the site owner recommends that.

I personally disagree that it's a scam for two reasons:

1) As I said, the 0.01BTC fee is actually a relatively new feature. When the site first opened, there was no withdrawal fee and the cost was absorbed by the site (i.e. its owner). So what happened was that people--like the OP--started mining tiny <0.02BTC amounts and then withdrawing them regularly. That meant that the site owner got hit with a 0.01 fee for transactions that were often less that 0.01BTC in themselves. Not cost effective, so he introduced passing the fee on to the clients. Now I agree that that should be better communicated, but it's not a "scam", just poor communication (or at worst, not being up front)

2) I have successfully mined about 0.20BTC and successfully withdrawn it. If it was a true scam, the withdrawals would have just failed and the owner would have pocketed what little I had earned.

This is not a site that is trying to trick you out of your money (which is what a scam is). This is a site that had bad foresight as to how users would use the system, and a front page that isn't blindingly obvious that withdrawal transaction fees are passed on.

On top of being established with a fee system in place that is different value than when the site started, on top of how much a Bitcoin was 'worth', which of course changing by the minute... oh yeah.. also, scams usually try and sell you something.  They offer a service for a fee, in the end the service itself is provided.

I can see how the site and business isn't being run up to date and current, but they sure don't have to, and at this point with how people are attacking the site, I don't think half the users complaining deserve any explanation on anything with how little they seem to want to view things from BitcoinPlus' side.   

Sorry Porn, but you're only defending the site because you let their software run on your porn site.
Quite understandable that you want to defend the site then.
Don't get me wrong - it's ok to do so IF it is disclosed.
Even the BCP policy was ok if disclosed.
The SCAM is that they don't.

BTW nice pics on your site ;)

I assure you, I do not always defend BitcoinPlus, please research my posts, I tend to talk highly of Bitp.it, but in this case and one other brought up recently in the Newbie forum, it's hard not to see BCP's side on this matter, it is plain and simple a lack of a site update that is getting the site labeled as a scam.  You can clearly see this stemming from bitterness regarding misunderstanding how browser mining could work, obviously not on an individual level.  There is no scam.

BTW, thanks, I'm photogenic :P

Been using it for 10 days now. Page only closes when I close it. It's never logged me out (and I have it logged in on a desktop and laptop at home, and a desk top at work). Seeing as this is a browser miner, chances are most users have pretty low performance computers and THAT's the problem.

As for the payouts, sending an email to him and asking him to change his minimum payout to match the new bitcoin client could work.

Just saying...

hopefully this is easy enough to follow along :) my anger at this got the best of me :)

I 100% agree!! complete Bleeping scam. I've only been around for a few weeks and everything he said is exactly what i thought.

The owner hides the .01 btc MINIMUM for transfer until you go to the transfer page. while this is not a big deal, idealy id have liked to transfer it sooner. I had no clue untill then that i needed .01 minimum. so like the above guy said "its understandable" to have to wait. so while its my fault that i didnt check *every* page on his website, he Certainly didnt make this fee upfront. but forget about that for now here is the real 'gotcha'.

The real scam here is that it litterly doesnt mention *anything* *anywhere* about needing .02 BTC for the /actual/ transfer it ONLY says ".01 btc minimum for transfer".

the owner basically strings you alone with "well you have .004 btc! might as well stick around till you get .01 btc and can transfer it out, after all you earned it!" but once you get that .01 btc you find out the REAL minimum is .02 btc.. so now you have to wait around for another .01 btc or you end up throwing away the .01 btc you already have, effectivly donateing it to the site owner. so if at any point you leave... because you never withdraw the amount of BTC you've earnd the owner effectivly gets to keep it since the BTC is in his account and he only has to pay transfer fees on each of those small amounts *if* he transfers them out.

i only mention the following because someone else did as well and because i had the exact same reaction. it Seems like the amount he pays out drops over time as well as well as the frequency of payments, it Seems like hes double dipping. which is why i tested out a Real CPU miner... which i make allot more on. in 4 days, (not nights) I've made as much i had in the last 2-3 weeks.

some of you can say "its only a few pennies, and their are fees!" but i really don't care, the facts stand, the fees are hidden to string you along so when you eventually give up he gets to keep the money. Aside from that, he can lump multiple withdraw transactions together to reduce the overall cost(unless im just wrong on this, transactions have a limit in data size, not number of people included in the transaction). he can also simply push them out with no transaction fee since that limitation is client side and not in the protocol itself, i really wouldn't mind waiting 24 hours or a week to get the BTC considering a i spent 2-3 weeks getting it in the first place.

and for those of you thinking "why bother for so little?" its because It's freaking cool! then why am i pissed? because of the principal of it! and if TWO people are pissed, you can be sure their are more. this guy is certainly doing a great job to help out the image of bitcoin lets all give him some applauds! *claps for the site owner*.

id love to see how much btc is waiting to be given out from inactive accounts. heck he could even have a "donate your btc to xyz charity" then every time he reached 10.01 btc he could simply send it to the charity rather then keeping it.

oh and while I'm at it, the Ufasoft CPU miner that does GPU's as well works much better.. and doesn't require any installs.

forum page for all miners -> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=16125.0




Link to other thread complaining about the same thing -> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=17099.0

Per definition, miners are greedy, micro-miners are greedier... if you don't try to withdraw rightaway I guess he could had lift that fee, because is a NETWORK FEE, not a house fee! If you can't even figure out how bitcoin works and just want to dip in the free money, sorry...
And for god sake stop using those damn CPU pools, you will NEVER make enough to pay the electrical you spend by doing it that way! Rather ask your parents to buy you 1btc at some btc market.

@BCEmporium: No idea who you are talking to, but it seems like you are the one that doesn't understand the Fees, they are just their to get someone to include your transaction in the blockchain. its blatantly obvious we wont make a profit but if us CPU mining makes you that upset, I'm sure if you send each of us 1 BTC we would be more then willing to stop just to make you happy. Oh and if it was directed at me, i don't like your attitude, in fact i don't like it regardless and i have a few choice words for you that ill keep to myself. G'day sir.

Yeah, and if you just "made" your 0.01 and rush to withdraw it, rushing the transaction will result in a network fee. Unless you want to collect your 0.01 without input it to the blockchain (ask him to create and send you a wallet with 0.01 by mail for an instance).
It wasn't direct at you alone, but to all who keep whining over cents.

It is a scam. Maybe I should write it in a way for greater impact (like you).

IT IS A SCAM darn it! (noticed I added bold text ;D).

That lack of information you mentioned is why it is a scam. This is called "Lying by omission"*. 

The fact that it is a small amount, is what makes it a great scam. Look what you wrote: "... are you 9 yo kids or what?!"
Is this to mean, stop complaining about being scammed since it is such a small amount?

Well what you wrote is not as bad as some. Some blame the people who got scammed for trusting BCP. They should have known better. Everyone ones knows that BCP is meant for websites. Someone even called one of the scammed a fool. Wow. You are a fool for being scammed. That seems wrong to me (maybe not to you).

The ones who don't know much about BitCoin are the ones who are being scammed. BCP knows this and lets it happen. Without telling them so they can make an informed decision.

Guess what, it is still happening.

Full disclose: I was scammed by BCP. I was also the one who was called a fool.
Why does't BCP disclose how they do things? Answer: They are scamming people.

* Lying by omission is lying by either omitting certain facts or by failing to correct a misconception. See http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lying_by_omission for more details.

+1

True, however BTC will not do this. I know. I was told by them that they will charge 0.01 on any amount. Also they could lower to the current rate of 0.0005. Nope, not doing that either. Also they could use JK's information (taken from another thread):



I assume that you think that BCP is not a scam. Does it still not seem like a scam?

Keep in mind that BCP was paying the transaction and changed their policy (without telling anyone through the site). You would have to find that information by contacting them through email.

Do you think it is a scam yet? No. They can change policies without informing people. Even Facebook will inform you when they make changes. In their case it is hiding in one of their settings, but it is there.

BCP does't disclose anything. That is a scam. I know many don't like that word (scam). Honestly, you must admit that what BCP does is not right and it is still happening.

IT IS NOT (notice I added bold, italic and underline).

That fee is already stated here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees

OK, maybe the site's owner was relying in ignorance or just think you know what bitcoin is before use his service.
Lack of information isn't always a scam, or scam sign, if the thing is meant to be widely known.

Calling scammer to someone so lightly over a community that's 90%+ trust based is bullshit! Either you've solid evidence or zip it! Spread FUD is an attack on the community.

Talking of lack of information as lying by omission, so you don't apply it as falacy, from a real story which happened to me:

I went to buy a grilled chicken, when the I arrive to the car my wife noticed the chicken was cold. I went back and complaint, the answered of the clerk was amazing: «You didn't told me you want it hot»
WTF! Grilled chicken is already meant to be hot, if was cool it was his duty to inform me or was "lying by omission" - because the thing wasn't the way it was meant to be.
Now, if I want a cold grilled chicken, but don't state it, and he give me one hot, then my complaint would be foolish, if I want it cold I should had ask as so.

Like selling and car stating it have 4 wheels... so what? It is already implicit, if it have 3 or 5 you may need to inform the customer, if has 4 is just a plain normal car.

Feature? I associate features with benefits.
e.g, Feature: This car has a 5.0L engine.
Benefit: This car will zoom pass the others and you will get home faster.

Feature: We will charge you 0.01 (even though we could make it lower).
Benefit: After you get to 0.01 BTC and find out about the fee (that's when you find out, by the way), you would stop mining and we keep your BTC.


It BTC wants to be cost effective, then use JK's information (taken from another thread):


BTC is not going to do this, because it would hurt their scam. Right now they are saying, "Hey, it's not our fault that you have to pay the 0.01 fee, blame the BTC network. It's their fault, our hands are tied." Of course the fee is now 0.0005, however BTC doesn't mention that (bad for the scam).


Introduced? That's kind. How was it introduced to you. Was it when you tried to transfer BTC.


Better Communicated? Again, that's kind. It was not communicated at all. Look at the site and find the communication. You will not find it.


BCP is (maybe) not being up front? Say it isn't so. What they are doing is scamming. Lying by omission is lying by either omitting certain facts or by failing to correct a misconception. See http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lying_by_omission for more details. Lying by omission is scamming.


Is this before or after the introduction of the new feature?
could you send me the address of this transaction so I can see for myself?



That is not how the scam works. They scam from people who know found out it's a scam and don't want to play that game again.
Here is how it works. You goto BCP and starting mining.
-You get your 1st payout (Yea!!) and attempt to transfer your BTC. This is when that you told that you need a minimum of 0.01 to transfer.*
-You get to at least 0.01 and now you are told that you can't transfer because of a 0.01 fee.*
-You contact BTC via email and the say that you really need 0.02 to transfer and 0.01 would be lost because of the fee. Two points to make on this. BTC can lower the fee if the want (by using JK's info and/or updating their BTC client). On their site, when you try to transfer funds, it says that it is a 0.01 minimum to transfer.

What would you do? Mine until you get to 0.02 and lose 0.01. Or call it quits, step away and know that they are keeping your BTC.
 
When it happened to me, I called it quits (but not right away). While stepping away, I had to give it up to BTC. Great scam.
Very well played sir, very well played.


I think they knew what they were doing from the start. If not, they saw the opportunity for starting a scam and took it.
In either case, still a scam.

* It is not listed anywhere else on the site.

Do you live in the U.S. (It will make sense later on [I hope])?
Do you consider BitCoin to be a form of currency?

Why the questions? I believe (could be wrong, I'm not a lawyer) that in the U.S. (which I'm located) that any company that deals with money and the public are required to disclose.

BCP did not disclose anything. Please read this thread for details. They did not so much as post a link like you did.

If something like this happened to you, would you think it a scam?


Maybe? Please read this thread from the start (reread if you have to). After that, then don't you think you should do a re-write and get rid of the maybe?


No, that is not the case. It may (I'm being nice here) have been the case at one time.
Now, they know.


OK, what about the fee you are talking about. Why is it still 0.01 (I tried to transfer yesterday and it was still there)? As you may know, that the fee is 0.0005 now. Does it seem like a scam to you yet?

What about JK's information (taken from another thread):


Still not a scam?


If you are saying that BCP is in the 10% that should not be trusted, then I agree.


You want proof. Goto http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=17099.0 and read (not just my posts). After that, ask me questions on things that you are unsure of. Until you read my proof, could you please zip it (notice, I said please).


I don't understand this, however I will respond.

What I'm spreading is truth. The truth is that BCP has and is still scamming people. I do not see how me telling the truth about BCP is hurting BitCoin or the BitCoin network.

Truth should not spread FUD (Fear, uncertainty and doubt).

FEAR: I do not think that anyone is fearful of BCP. Their crime does not involve murder, rape, dismembering etc. They are just stealing small amounts of BTC from people.
Is that something to be afraid of? Avoided, yes. Feared, no.

UNCERTAINTY: No I am certain that BCP is scamming people. Hopefully you will read that and came to that yourself. I understand that you may not think that they are scamming (some would rather hope I use another word), however I think you would at least realize that BCP is not doing some things right. I haven't said that are scamming everyone, just some (which makes it such a great scam). I haven't even said that they are no-good (as in: they can bring nothing to the table). From what I read, if you have a website (or websites), then BCP could be a good fit for you. I don't have a website, so I can only tell you what I read.

What am I saying? Even with the things that they bring for websites, they are still scamming people.

DOUBT: Yea, I want you to doubt them. If you have read every thing then I'm sure you will see why you should doubt. Keeping in mind that the people with websites do not have a problem BCP (none that I heard of). OK, that is not 100% true. Some have expressed that they do not like that BCP doesn't disclose. However it is working for them (so let the BitCoins roll in). I would hope that they (website owners who use BCP) would keep an eye on BCP. I think that is the wise thing to do.

I am not one to flame people, but BCEmporium Clearly does not understand transaction fees and seems to be mixing up network protocol with the client itself. even giving evidence that proves him wrong and claiming it proves him right. I think we should just ignore his posts, hes clearly not going to "See The Light" and we clearly are not going to "understand".

one thing we can do, if you use avast antivirus and have the firefox addon that lets you see a "Rating" of a website that users give, you can just give it the lowest rating possible. while it will only help people using Avast.. its better then nothing.

Mixing the network protocol with the client?!  :o WTF are you talking about?!  ::)

Dude... no wonder you're mining bit-micro-cents with your CPU!... Hey there's a guy from Nigeria up to give you 5 mil too, want to take the ride? I can forward you some of his emails...

...

lets break it down for you.

from the wiki link you posted in the vary first paragraph on the page. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees

lets have a look~

Transaction fees may be included with any transfer of bitcoins from one address to another. At the moment, many transactions are typically processed in a way where no fee is expected at all, but for transactions which draw coins from many bitcoin addresses and therefore have a large data size, a small transaction fee is usually expected.

May: (used  to  express possibility):

expected: (to suppose or surmise; guess): AKA Not a requirement. but something you Should pay.

required:
-to impose need or occasion for; make necessary or indispensable: The work required infinite patience.
-to demand; impose obligation: to do as the law requires.

Nowhere does it say "required" in that text.

i hope you understand.

Yes, they may be, however, unlike with your bitcoin graphical client who asks you to confirm it when it will request a fee, bitcoind (the one without fancy graphics), doesn't do that, just let you know after you sent 0.018 instead of 0.008.

From the same page on the wiki:

Yesterday I was VERY close to finishing. I accidentally closed out of the page with around 5 seconds left.  :'(

*grumbles* those are Client side, you just said it yourself! i Wish i had read to the next paragraph, it had this Gem (3rd paragraph down)"Transaction fees are voluntary on the part of the person making the bitcoin transaction, as the person attempting to make a transaction can include any fee or none at all in the transaction" it cant get more clear then that.

so to say it again, clients may force a fee but the protocol doesn't, and you can recompile it yourself and have No fee. since the guy running the website has an automatic payout feature when you request payout he has a custom implementation of this therefore he can set whatever fee he likes.

Regardless of whether or not the client charges a fee, the site owner STILL hides the .02 minimum /he/ sets and has yet to switch to the current more reasonable fee. which is what .005? or was .0005?

 ::)

Yes... they can patch and rebuild bitcoind... but then you probably will wait a bit longer prior to see anything hit the blockchain.

I dont think bitcoinplus is a scam. It is a very user friendly introduction to mining. If you download a CPU miner you will see that bitcoinplus's java miner is slower. But it's super convenient. Also, I was able to withdraw the first 0.01BTC I mined there. By the time I got around to my second 0.01BTC the fee was introduced. I assume it is the standard network fee imposed by the official client.

If you are patient then the fee will probably get reduced to 0.005 when the site owner gets around to it.

they lie, they say the minimum is .01 BTC. in reality the minimum is .02 BTC yet they don't display this anywhere to users unless they have .01 BTC. they have known about this for awhile yet they have made no change. payouts are only given out in amounts like .01,.02,.03,.04,.05 etc. so they wont give out amounts that overflow and there is *no* reason for this, they are scammers that lie to their users and make it difficult to get your money and/or are simply inept at coding. either way they should be black listed.

i should also mention, because of the difficulty increase it probably takes allot of time to get .02 from them these days.

for a complete understanding read the thread.

Define a lot (I assume you mean "a lot" as "allot" means something else altogether). It took me about a week.

Its obvious what i meant and I'm not talking about running several PC's 24/7. i was comparing *now* with how long it took back when they had no fee before the difficulty changed.

i first would like to state that i'm not by anyway affiliate with bitcoin plus.
the site is not a scam. Think of it of an "entry level" website for people that dont know what bitcoin is.
i concur with previous opinions about wanting results=getting a gpu.
when i first saw bitcoin plus it gave me the idea to  search and  implement one of my own javascript miner. of course just for the fun of it and nothing more as cpu mining is not a good idea.

read the thread, there is more to it then that.

Eri i'm quoting BCEmporium.
i scam would be: minimum transaction is 0.5 . you try to tranfer 0.5 and you get the message" for transaction fees we keep 0.5 . you now have 0. try again!"

Is this true? Damned, I'm close to my first 0.01 BTC at BCP  >:(

*sigh* stergium, I'm quoting myself, ITS A SCAM. they keep stringing you along so most give up and leave the BTC behind instead opting for the 3 times more efficient cpu mining APP. ive made nearly 2 times as much in 1 week of cpu mining(minus last night they upgraded my internet and it was out for F@#$ing hours) compared to 3 weeks(?) on their website. if thats not a scam then what is it? and let me put it to you another way, if ANY business treated ANYONE that way, they would find themselves out of business VARY quickly. Hidden FEES? its one thing to hide something in a contract but to completely 100% Omit it is just plain BS. you want to know why this is a Great scam? because of people like you who insist their is nothing wrong with it.

you do not  know me that well to talk about "people like me" .
i did not suggested this to anyone. i *tried * this site for 25 seconds for fun.
you want/need to do it? do it for all i a care.
In YOUR(and other ppl's) thinking this is  a scam.
In MY(and other ppl's) thinking this is not a scam.
As i wrote before i saw that as an idea of implementing my *own* javascript miner, again for fun.
Because it cannot be a money making (due to difficulty and cpu mining) it cannot be a scam.
whoever wants to try it will realise it soon.
i have left 0.004XXXXX to a mining pool that stopped using. because i stopped and those change left there , they are scammers? .
stay and mine to get them.

This doesn't matter. BCP, as all miners, is based on probability rather than actual work done. So you could set it running for 5 seconds and earn a shed load (very unlikely), or run it for 5 years and earn nothing (also very unlikely). The indicator bar is purely based around estimated payout to give you an idea. Closing the browser 5 seconds before it reaches the end has absolutely no baring on whether you get any payouts or not; all it does when it gets to the end is go back to the start.

This is all explained very clearly in the site's own FAQ.

I think most would also agree with that.

What bothers me is that some (seem to) think that it is OK for BCP to not disclose. So if someone goes to BCP and get scammed, then it is their fault for not knowing better. That is wrong. Without going into much details, please review my posts (and others) to see why this is wrong.


I edited your above quote. Did I get the central thought correct?

If so, then I have stated that BCP seems like a good fit for people with websites.
When I state that BCP is scamming people, then I am talking about the people who don't have a website.

I also think they are scamming people with a website.  The website owners are not that concerned (my guess) because they are getting others to mine BTC for them. i.e., They (website owners) did not use their own resources (electric, wear and tear on their computers, etc.) to generate BTC, so paying a 0.01 fee is not that much of a deal from them.

Assuming that BCP does disclose and someone goes to BCP for the first time (without knowing anything). I believe that website owners would still use BCP (seems like a great deal for them). Non website owners would not use BCP*.

* To be fair, maybe some non-website owners (my guess a small amount) would use BCP. I can not explain why some people do what they do.  :)

It's not a scam, because the site owner isn't getting the BTC, it's going to the person/pool who mines the next block.

the btc is in *a* account that the website owner has control of, this is how they are able to give btc out, if they were not in control of it they would have no way of giving the btc out at all. their website keeps track of how much btc is owed and to who. so if a account goes inactive for 6 months they can just take the BTC because the person that 'owns' it isn't likely to come back for it. and if they do, they have plenty of other BTC sitting there that they can give them.

I think it's a scam because BCP doesn't inform about their terms and conditions of business. In addition BCP graps a fee of 0.01 BTC for transfering although Bitcoin changed it to 0.0005 BTC.

Sorry, I should have said the BTC paid as the transaction fee isn't kept by the site owner. I highly doubt he's taking the .01 and only paying .0005

regardless the only place he mentions fees is in the transaction page, he lists the minimum as .01. in reality the minimum is .02. read the threads for specific details. he strings you along to get you to keep mining and apparently takes a 19% fee? without ever showing anything being deducted from you 'income' ie, he deducts it before he shows you what you have made so you don't even know hes doing it. can we really not get a stickied thread of blacklisted sites?

Sorry but this is getting pathetic. Boo hoo you can't withdraw a fractional amount you mined on your crappy CPU. Either mine more until you have enough to withdraw a sensible amount, buy a GPU and a proper setup, or stop whining.

You paid nothing for the BCP service except for a handful of CPU cycles. Anybody would think you had paid the site thousands of dollars the amount of noise being made. Frankly, the owner of this site would be perfectly entitled to charge you even more, including joining fees, considering he's done all the work and you are getting the benefit.

It annoys me when people hide behind an ivory tower of "I just want Bitcoin to be a success" when what they actually mean is "I want to jump on the bandwaggon". If you hate BCP so much, write your own Java applet miner and put it on your own site. If you can't write the applet or host the site, then you aren't really in a position to criticise others who have done so.

Non-disclosure of all fees (including x-fer), non-disclosure of minimum x-fer amounts, etc...  That's what they do.  You buy in and get trapped because you want to minimize your fees or you forfeit your coins and move on.  I suspect they like lots of unsuspecting miners trying out the site then leaving their meager coins behind as they leave for more lucrative mining opportunities.  Their model seems to reinforce my suspicions.

If they fully disclosed ALL of their fees and payout rates how many new users would join?

I think you are missing the point. BCP is scamming people. It is still happening. The amount scammed is so small (which what makes it a great scam) that when people bring it up, some other people tell them that they or boo hooing or they are a fool.


Again, missing the point. Everyone who got scammed (and the people who are being scammed now, they don't know it yet), paid (or for the people now being scammed, are paying now). You expect to get for the things you pay for.


Again, missing the point...


I agree (to a point). BCP could charged anything they like as long as they let people know what the charge is. Not only is BCP is not doing that. They change their policy of how they do things (also without telling anyone). This does not seem like a scam to you?


I give you that BCP has done work on setting up the site. However, I would not say that BCP did all the work.
Correct me if I am wrong. For the site to work, others will have to do the work (mining for BTC). For the people who got scammed (and are being scammed now), the benefit is going all to BCP. Please read this thread from the start for the details.


I am unsure how this relates. About this, I write the following:
If you are not the creator (the one who is called), "Satoshi Nakamoto", then you have done a "jump on the bandwaggon". I think that is what the creator wants people to do.


For me, I don't hate BCP. BCP is a thing. It is a tool. It makes no sense to hate a thing.
It someone kills someone you love with a gun. Would you hate the gun?
So forgive me if that was not clear. From what I understand (could be wrong), (as a tool) BCP seems to be a great fit for people who have websites.

What I hate is that someone (or someones) is using BCP to scam people.

As for criticizing, I think what I am doing is correct. BCP has and is scamming people. They are doing wrong. Do you think that saying nothing about this will make them stop?

Why am I writing this (it is not making BCP change and start doing right)? I am doing it for three reasons.

1. To inform people of that scam that BCP is doing. Since I believe that you (could be wrong) don't think that BCP is scamming people (or that it is okay for them to scam people), I have a bit more work to do.

2. I hope people will let others know how BCP truly works.

3. I would like people to boycott BCP until they start doing right. I remember that boycotts could work. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Parks for an example of a successful (but long) boycott.

We'll just have to agree to differ. You are welcome to think is a "scam" should you wish. Might I suggest that you stop using it immediately. That way, my own share from mining using it will increase, so we both win (I get more BTC, you get to "stop being scammed")

I've already said that I think that it would be beneficial to display a message "warning" newbies who intend to mine ridiculously small amounts that there is no point. But that is not because I think it is a scam. If anything, its the single-crap-PC users who are the scammers, as they are signing up with an implication that they are going to contribute cycles to the pool when in reality that are contributing so little to make it pointless, and then hitting the site with thousands and thousands of tiny withdrawls, each requiring a transaction fee (whether that be 0.01 or 0.0005 or whatever).

Think of it this way: when BCP first started, I could see that it was a quick and dirty way of getting mining without installing software. As it was intended for. So I immediately set top-end CPU boxes going on it, and made myself 0.20BTC. Not a huge amount to be sure, but a start. Then thousands and thousands of silly little 50khash "contributors" signed up, and the pool was diluted massively trying to share out amongst all these miners. So the amount I was earning with each solve reduced massively. On top, or so the site owner explains (quite clearly) when you try to withdraw a ridiculously small amount, you get charged a 0.01 transaction fee for each withdrawl. This is not the owner collecting these in a pot. This is an in-built feature of the network to prevent exactly what all these silly little users are doing: flooding the block chain with thousands of silly tiny transactions like a DDoS. It seems very sensible to me. In fact, the owner originally paid these transaction fees FOR YOU! But that was on the assumption that you were going to be doing sensible mining. When that proved that you couldn't be trusted to do that, that offer was [rightly] withdrawn.

I've stopped using BCP now, not because it is a scam, but because all of the people like those complaining on this thread have turned it into a farce. What started out as a good way to mine without installing software has turned into a flood of one-hit-wonder miners looking for make thousands of dollars for 15 minute's mining. Once the number of users decreases, and the pool shares go back to a sensible amount, I'll likely return to it.

And for those who are saying that this is terrible and wrong and immoral and must be stopped ("Won't somebody PLEASE think of the children?!") ... I assume you are all declaring and paying taxes on your 'profits' from Bitcoin, right?...

@troll: GTFO, get a brain and if your going to stand on a soapbox at least start your own thread before bitching about something completely off topic.

haha.. just lost everything i wrote so this will have to do, maybe if i feel like it later ill tear apart all the crap you wrote line by line like i was doing. but for for now ill hit the highlights and if anyone wants to bother they can figure out the references on their own.

we stopped using his site awhile ago and unlike you we just just want people to know its a scam and stop using it rather then to stop using it so you can make more money with your CPU mining RIGS which are likely office PCs your using illegally since i would hope nobody would be dumb enough to invest in cpu mining over GPU mining. which in case you havn't herd is incredibly inefficient and a stupid way to try to make money. heck even if you made them before gpu mining was herd of you would still be better off running some other app that is more efficient(like ufasoft). on the other hand we just wanted a way to get some btc without having to go out and upgrade or install some software that may mess up our PC.

since you still don't understand how mining works, ill break i down for you. out of all the cpu miners on that website in order for money to be generated blocks must be found. this is the key part, so pay attention. mining works by generating random hash's so at any given time any one of those miners is just as likely to solve the block as any other. so while your bitching like a little girl that they are getting some of your btc it is entirely likely, in fact far more so that those individual cpu miners with more hashing power combined then your cpu mining rig are in fact the ones generating the blocks, not you. Everyone using that site has the exact same chance. fact of the matter is, you are just another cog in the machine, and alone your cpu rig is likely just as worthless as any lone cpu miner. me included :) hence why i joined a pool! which btw, you would also benefit from.

as far as "hitting the site with thousands and thousands of tiny withdrawls" that was before me, and i cant help it if the site owner didnt realize he needed to take into account transaction fees.

and since you apparently didn't read the thread, or visit the site in awhile the minimum is not "on top" as you say, its in the transaction page. and its not .01 like he says, its .02, (regardless of the fact that in reality transaction fees are currently .0005)

you know *nothing* about networking, a few low btc transactions from one site is not going to ddos the system. we just want one transaction one time to get what is ours, using a fee the current devs think is appropriat. not that a few no fee transactions would hurt anything.

"on the assumption that you were going to be doing sensible mining." vary cute. sensible.. says the person with a cpu mining rig hes using on a website that is almost taking 20% (new fact!) instead of using a mining app that is more efficient and doesn't charge 20%

"What started out as a good way to mine without installing software has turned into a flood of one-hit-wonder miners looking for make thousands of dollars for 15 minute's mining. " ill add the same comment as somewhere above.

and who is freaking out? its just a way for him to get people to use his site for awhile, giving him almost 20%(without their knowledge), then upon realising they wont get to .02 for a vary long time eventually realise they can install ufasoft's miner and make that much in about 1/5th of the time, leaving him the rest of the money they never withdrew... so yeah.. not scam, but what is it?

PS, borrow the other trolls soapbox.

If only I could figure out how to turn the butthurt in this thread into hashing power, then I could be stinking rich...