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Economy => Gambling => Topic started by: Remember remember the 5th of November on July 09, 2013, 09:25:00 PM



Title: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Remember remember the 5th of November on July 09, 2013, 09:25:00 PM
Yes, they publish everything on their website and this does allow to verify actual bets, however I found something interesting.

We have three variables: secret, server seed, client seed. The client seed can be changed, however most don't bother to do it, and I believe this allows(and may even be exploited by the owners already) to do selective hashes.

Basically, the secret seed is a constant for 24hrs, the server seed is pre-generated before your next bet, it's the server seed that is the "weak" link. Basically they assume that the client seed WILL not be changed for the next bet based on user activity and then they pre-generate server seeds and select only those that would later hash to lower bets than your avg roll over number which is how they don't need to know what you are betting to roll over.

Nov 8 update

Even with their new layout, and "nonce", the server seed is still being used. If you can change the nonce every single bet to a random one, you can fix the problem, but the better solution yet would be for Stunna to remove the server seed entirely.

Sept 2014 update, locking thread as no longer relevant.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: bit777 on July 09, 2013, 09:36:46 PM
This is an interesting concept, but it doesn't relate just to PD, more like to anyone. I have noticed very strange losing streaks on some of the sites, like once I had 23 losses in a row with a chance of 1 in a gazillion.

However, do you have proof?


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Remember remember the 5th of November on July 09, 2013, 09:46:20 PM
This is an interesting concept, but it doesn't relate just to PD, more like to anyone. I have noticed very strange losing streaks on some of the sites, like once I had 23 losses in a row with a chance of 1 in a gazillion.

However, do you have proof?
I cannot provide any concrete proof, aside from this picture

http://i.imgur.com/En6GaaJ.png

and how this is not the only occurrence of this loss streak. A user MoFo on PD with an initial bet of less than 0.01 and doubling on each loss, he doubled his money all the way to over 5 bitcoins and lost that all on ~50/50 chance of a win which were around 10-15 losses.
So while this may just come from the randomness that hashes are, it can also be due to selective hashes on server-side.

I can't prove myself right 100%, but I don't think anyone can prove that it isn't happening.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: KingOfSports on July 09, 2013, 10:53:32 PM
This is an interesting concept, but it doesn't relate just to PD, more like to anyone. I have noticed very strange losing streaks on some of the sites, like once I had 23 losses in a row with a chance of 1 in a gazillion.

However, do you have proof?
I cannot provide any concrete proof, aside from this picture

http://i.imgur.com/En6GaaJ.png

and how this is not the only occurrence of this loss streak. A user MoFo on PD with an initial bet of less than 0.01 and doubling on each loss, he doubled his money all the way to over 5 bitcoins and lost that all on ~50/50 chance of a win which were around 10-15 losses.
So while this may just come from the randomness that hashes are, it can also be due to selective hashes on server-side.

I can't prove myself right 100%, but I don't think anyone can prove that it isn't happening.

Primedice is rigged beyond belief in my opinion. I've played on all the main ones, primedice, coinroll.it and just-dice. I am down a couple coins on all of them but prime dice the losing streaks are INCREDIBLE. Literally last 5 sessions I have had 25% wins or WORSE on the 50.5%. Not kidding. Went 0/3 also on 90% when I tried it for more then a BTC. Avoid this site IMHO. Over 1000 rolls of 50.5 and my win/lose ratio is around .68 (should be .99). The odds of that based on sample size are very very low.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Remember remember the 5th of November on July 09, 2013, 11:12:52 PM
This is an interesting concept, but it doesn't relate just to PD, more like to anyone. I have noticed very strange losing streaks on some of the sites, like once I had 23 losses in a row with a chance of 1 in a gazillion.

However, do you have proof?
I cannot provide any concrete proof, aside from this picture



and how this is not the only occurrence of this loss streak. A user MoFo on PD with an initial bet of less than 0.01 and doubling on each loss, he doubled his money all the way to over 5 bitcoins and lost that all on ~50/50 chance of a win which were around 10-15 losses.
So while this may just come from the randomness that hashes are, it can also be due to selective hashes on server-side.

I can't prove myself right 100%, but I don't think anyone can prove that it isn't happening.

Primedice is rigged beyond belief in my opinion. I've played on all the main ones, primedice, coinroll.it and just-dice. I am down a couple coins on all of them but prime dice the losing streaks are INCREDIBLE. Literally last 5 sessions I have had 25% wins or WORSE on the 50.5%. Not kidding. Went 0/3 also on 90% when I tried it for more then a BTC. Avoid this site IMHO. Over 1000 rolls of 50.5 and my win/lose ratio is around .68 (should be .99). The odds of that based on sample size are very very low.
By which username do you go on PrimeDice?


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Rippyzippers on July 09, 2013, 11:59:34 PM
8 Loss streak on 50/50 proves nothing.

Nothing


Please have some more concrete proof of...well...any wrong doing...if you're going to make these kinds of accusations.



And don't get me wrong, I've sometmes questioned why the seeding is so random on PD when the solution is fairly easy, but your picture does nothing to say they are rigged.


I've seen 20 loss in a row on Just-Coin and you'd be stupid to say they are rigged.



You're gambling. You will lose.
People say, "The House Always Wins" for a reason.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Remember remember the 5th of November on July 10, 2013, 12:03:12 AM
8 Loss streak on 50/50 proves nothing.

Nothing


Please have some more concrete proof of...well...any wrong doing...if you're going to make these kinds of accusations.



And don't get me wrong, I've sometmes questioned why the seeding is so random on PD when the solution is fairly easy, but your picture does nothing to say they are rigged.


I've seen 20 loss in a row on Just-Coin and you'd be stupid to say they are rigged.



You're gambling. You will lose.
People say, "The House Always Wins" for a reason.
Re-read my first post where I do say that the server seed can be pre-generated in such a way that it allows selective hashes.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: dooglus on July 10, 2013, 12:05:40 AM
This is an interesting concept, but it doesn't relate just to PD, more like to anyone.

I think PrimeDice are more vulnerable to this kind of accusation than either Just-Dice or CoinRoll, because PrimeDice changes the server seed before every roll, whereas CoinRoll only changes it once per day, and Just-Dice never changes it unless the player requests that it be changed.

Not that I think PrimeDice is cheating anyone; I don't.  It's just harder to verify that they aren't - you would have to make a note of each individual server seed, which probably nobody is going to be prepared to do.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: TradeFortress 🏕 on July 10, 2013, 12:07:47 AM
It is extremely suspicious how primedice STILL generates the client secret on the server and gives it to the player - it is a SECRET! The server cannot generate it.

PrimeDice CAN be made provably fair if the user changes it. However, PrimeDice is NOT provably fair when you start playing it.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Stunna on July 10, 2013, 01:21:45 AM
I cannot provide any concrete proof, aside from this picture

http://i.imgur.com/En6GaaJ.png

and how this is not the only occurrence of this loss streak. A user MoFo on PD with an initial bet of less than 0.01 and doubling on each loss, he doubled his money all the way to over 5 bitcoins and lost that all on ~50/50 chance of a win which were around 10-15 losses.
So while this may just come from the randomness that hashes are, it can also be due to selective hashes on server-side.

I can't prove myself right 100%, but I don't think anyone can prove that it isn't happening.

First of all, I'd like to preface this by saying that PrimeDice has never manipulated a single roll. We are actually profiting below our expected profit thus far. You certainly bring up a reasonable argument and it is something I will absolutely discuss with our developer. However, I don't feel posting a screenshot of an 8 loss streak proves anything, millions of bets are being placed and the term "concrete" should not precede it.

Your other example with MoFo is also moot, he's placed thousands and thousands of bets and has wagered nearly 1000BTC

However, I understand the underlying point you are making and am open to the suggested changes. While we do have a provably fair system it appears it is not as provable as it could be.

This is an interesting concept, but it doesn't relate just to PD, more like to anyone.

I think PrimeDice are more vulnerable to this kind of accusation than either Just-Dice or CoinRoll, because PrimeDice changes the server seed before every roll, whereas CoinRoll only changes it once per day, and Just-Dice never changes it unless the player requests that it be changed.

Not that I think PrimeDice is cheating anyone; I don't.  It's just harder to verify that they aren't - you would have to make a note of each individual server seed, which probably nobody is going to be prepared to do.

The points expressed here and throughout the thread have been duly noted and will be discussed with our developer. We're launching a new version of primedice within the next two weeks and this will be brought to the table. I'm not an expert in provably fair or cryptography, however I am an honest and decent person and am willing to work with the community towards a fix.


It's also important to note that vulnerabilities exist even in a perfect "provably fair" system, even SD could manipulate results if they wanted to.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1frm4x/provably_fair_by_bitzino_not_provable_with/

In many cases Provably fair is not enough. The author of that post mentioned he was working on provably fair II which is also something I'll be looking into implementing. November has my thanks for bringing this to my attention. If anyone has any concerns in the meantime, I suggest changing your client seed at the top of the betting page.

Best Regards,

Stunna




Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Zaih on July 10, 2013, 02:01:42 AM
I cannot provide any concrete proof, aside from this picture

http://i.imgur.com/En6GaaJ.png

and how this is not the only occurrence of this loss streak. A user MoFo on PD with an initial bet of less than 0.01 and doubling on each loss, he doubled his money all the way to over 5 bitcoins and lost that all on ~50/50 chance of a win which were around 10-15 losses.
So while this may just come from the randomness that hashes are, it can also be due to selective hashes on server-side.

I can't prove myself right 100%, but I don't think anyone can prove that it isn't happening.

First of all, I'd like to preface this by saying that PrimeDice has never manipulated a single roll. We are actually profiting below our expected profit thus far. You certainly bring up a reasonable argument and it is something I will absolutely discuss with our developer. However, I don't feel posting a screenshot of an 8 loss streak proves anything, millions of bets are being placed and the term "concrete" should not precede it.

Your other example with MoFo is also moot, he's placed thousands and thousands of bets and has wagered nearly 1000BTC

However, I understand the underlying point you are making and am open to the suggested changes. While we do have a provably fair system it appears it is not as provable as it could be.

This is an interesting concept, but it doesn't relate just to PD, more like to anyone.

I think PrimeDice are more vulnerable to this kind of accusation than either Just-Dice or CoinRoll, because PrimeDice changes the server seed before every roll, whereas CoinRoll only changes it once per day, and Just-Dice never changes it unless the player requests that it be changed.

Not that I think PrimeDice is cheating anyone; I don't.  It's just harder to verify that they aren't - you would have to make a note of each individual server seed, which probably nobody is going to be prepared to do.

The points expressed here and throughout the thread have been duly noted and will be discussed with our developer. We're launching a new version of primedice within the next two weeks and this will be brought to the table. I'm not an expert in provably fair or cryptography, however I am an honest and decent person and am willing to work with the community towards a fix.


It's also important to note that vulnerabilities exist even in a perfect "provably fair" system, even SD could manipulate results if they wanted to.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1frm4x/provably_fair_by_bitzino_not_provable_with/

In many cases Provably fair is not enough. The author of that post mentioned he was working on provably fair II which is also something I'll be looking into implementing. November has my thanks for bringing this to my attention. If anyone has any concerns in the meantime, I suggest changing your client seed at the top of the betting page.

Best Regards,

Stunna




SD can't manipulate their results. That only applies to websites liek Bitzino which use client seeds.

Just fix your system Stunna, I cbf sticking up for it anymore dispite always liking PD so much. I know your not cheating, but it's stupid how your system is made.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Loker on July 10, 2013, 02:39:32 AM
IMHO it's the bettor / user's fault if they neglect to change the client seed.

If they don't care enough to change it, they're not worried about the site's integrity and either don't care or trust that the site wouldn't falsely advertise provably fair.  If a BTC gambling site was ever exposed for manipulating bets that would put their entire site and reputation on the line no longer allowing them to receive bets at the rate they once did.

There's no amount of loss or win streak you can show to dissuade or persuade someone that it is or isn't provably fair.

Your accusations are ridiculous, frankly.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: TradeFortress 🏕 on July 10, 2013, 02:42:03 AM
It is extremely suspicious how primedice STILL generates the client secret on the server and gives it to the player - it is a SECRET! The server cannot generate it.

PrimeDice CAN be made provably fair if the user changes it. However, PrimeDice is NOT provably fair when you start playing it.

Stunna, no offense but you have been saying the "new site 2 weeks" for a long time now like BFL. It seriously takes ONE LINE:

var clientSeed = Math.random();

Sure, it's not cryptographically fair, but it is enough for a client seed.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: vlees on July 10, 2013, 07:46:19 AM
Primedice is provably fair and legit. I love primedice.

^ Lol, this guy. ^

Claims JD is unfair while PD is fair. Neither have any arguments/evidence to back this up.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 26, 2013, 01:11:58 PM
I have left a negative feedback on stunna's profile. I don't think his site is fair at all. I won't remove it until he proves that my bet was fair and tell me why i won small bets and lost it when i wagered a big amount at 90%.



Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Dabs on August 26, 2013, 01:37:45 PM
You know the hash of the server seed.
You can change your client seed.

What's not fair about that?

His proof is the same as all other dice sites, using SHA2. That means a 2^256 up to 2^512 chance of getting a collision on the hash result based on both seeds.

You won because you got lucky. You lose because you got unlucky. Both can also be explained with probabilities and variance.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 26, 2013, 01:43:34 PM
You know the hash of the server seed.
You can change your client seed.

What's not fair about that?

His proof is the same as all other dice sites, using SHA2. That means a 2^256 up to 2^512 chance of getting a collision on the hash result based on both seeds.

I don't know server seed


I think PrimeDice are more vulnerable to this kind of accusation than either Just-Dice or CoinRoll, because PrimeDice changes the server seed before every roll, whereas CoinRoll only changes it once per day, and Just-Dice never changes it unless the player requests that it be changed.

I also don't know what was the client seed when I played that game and frankly i don't know how to verify them.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Zaih on August 26, 2013, 01:56:18 PM
Well.. Someone's a sore loser & a complete idiot  ;D

Don't play games you don't understand


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 26, 2013, 02:09:38 PM
Their verification page says "User is freely able to change server seed at their own will. which isn't true at all.
http://gyazo.com/f0ff2e67eda519ecf7982010f4dad2e3.png

And why their secret hash remains same for a day and people have to wait for 24 hours to get it. They don't even save history of all bets on site. I am not a pro gambler, and people like me don't remember or check these kind of things. I thought it's my bad luck probably but after reading remember's thread I have some doubts about his site's legitimacy  and stunna need to clear it.



Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 26, 2013, 02:11:24 PM
Well.. Someone's a sore loser & a complete idiot  ;D

Don't play games you don't understand

No well someone's a complete asshole.
No offence but fuck you, that's not your problem so mind your own fucking business.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Zaih on August 26, 2013, 02:12:20 PM
Their verification page says "User is freely able to change server seed at their own will. which isn't true at all.
http://gyazo.com/f0ff2e67eda519ecf7982010f4dad2e3.png

And why their secret hash remains same for a day and people have to wait for 24 hours to get it. They don't even save history of all bets on site. I am not a pro gambler, and people like me don't remember or check these kind of things. I thought it's my bad luck probably but after reading remember's thread I have some doubts about his site's legitimacy  and stunna need to clear it.



You can change the server seed at your own will.. Just bet 0 and it will change, or bet 0.0000001 and it will change. Were you even playing on primedice lol


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Remember remember the 5th of November on August 26, 2013, 02:15:43 PM
You still don't get it, the server seed can be pre-selected so that it always bets < a certain number. There recently a website that actually showed this technique in action.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: fildza on August 26, 2013, 02:16:28 PM
8 Loss streak on 50/50 proves nothing.

Nothing

Please have some more concrete proof of...well...any wrong doing...if you're going to make these kinds of accusations.



And don't get me wrong, I've sometmes questioned why the seeding is so random on PD when the solution is fairly easy, but your picture does nothing to say they are rigged.


I've seen 20 loss in a row on Just-Coin and you'd be stupid to say they are rigged.



You're gambling. You will lose.
People say, "The House Always Wins" for a reason.

Only 8 streak lose , I got 10 or 9 streak lose in 2x payout. haha. But to get more than 7 streak win never


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Zaih on August 26, 2013, 02:18:48 PM
You still don't get it, the server seed can be pre-selected so that it always bets < a certain number. There recently a website that actually showed this technique in action.

You can change the client seed though? Eugh


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: /dev/null on August 26, 2013, 02:28:21 PM

You can change the server seed at your own will.. Just bet 0 and it will change, or bet 0.0000001 and it will change.

It still will be generated by site no? and how that will help btw
Are you really that much stupid.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: vlees on August 26, 2013, 03:01:19 PM
You still don't get it, the server seed can be pre-selected so that it always bets < a certain number. There recently a website that actually showed this technique in action.

Yes, that was me with http://v20.nl/primedice/

However, changing the client-seed is now dead-simple on PD so the point made with that is invalid now.
Also you can now also bet above x AND below x, so if you think PD only creates numbers below 50? Bet 100 times your usual the amount and suddenly bet on below 50. (aka you always bet 1 BTC on above 50, now bet 100 BTC on below)

If a site is biased, the site operator would go bankrupt within a week because eventually people will find out and know how to break the cheating algorithm.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: KingOfSports on August 26, 2013, 06:04:37 PM
Primedice has made +500 BTC in less then 10,000 BTC wagered, more like less then 5000 BTC since intro of PD2 a profit of 5-10%, nowhere near 1%. My honest to god belief is that they have software that monitors your bettting styles and thus if you bet constantly over or under, they give you a seed that will have less then expected results if you continue betting the same pattern. As much as Stunna is nice and all, I truly believe it is rigged as the profits made are just unrealistic. Started with a bankroll of roughly 300 BTC, and has made roughly 1800-1900 BTC on 88,000 BTC wagered, A HUGE amount greater then 1%. Bankroll sitting at 2200 last I checked. Also if you read the primedice thread, the user Mbitcoin has basically gone nonexistant, since winning the 200 BTC. I truly believe that Stunna or a friend of his won the 200 BTC to draw publicity for the site. It did work. There was no tx ever posted so we can't even assume 200 BTC was paid out. This is all theory, and to all I would advise using random.org or another software to randomly choose whether you pick high or low every time you roll. Change your client seed everytime. Also, there is no way, Stunna can operate on ONLY a 1% margin and accept no confirm deposits as well, any actuary can tell you that will result in -ROI long term (they are the people who determine what insurance rates you pay and all based on premiums paid and % of negative cash flow outcomes occurring).

I personally over 1000+ rolls on the old PD had a luck of less then 75% all betting 49.5%. I created other accounts and almost everytime within the first 10 rolls a streak of at least 5 losses at over 50.5 would occur. To answer the: "You just lost a ton to Primedice so you're complaining, I will reply with this: I have lost 3x as much on Just-dice as primedice and can say 100% just-dice is legit and fair. No question. The streaks occur and hell I have had a streak of 16 on just-dice, coinroll.it too. Both are fair, but Primedice is not.

Think about this: Dooglus stated they are suspectiable to theories of being rigged since a new server seed is generated EVERY roll. All other dice sites have followed coinroll.it's and just-dice's example of not changing it. So then let me ask this: With this thread and other complaints of not being fair, WHY do you not change it to remaining the same seed every roll Stunna?.

The answer: Because it's rigged based on patterns of the bettor and Stunna knows no one can truly prove that it is unless seeing the software themselves. Changing the client seed everytime or their patterns, isn't what dicers want to do, so thus the huge 3% or greater profits continue. So thus it won't be changed, even though all these complaints could easily go away if it was.

That is my stance on this thread's topic.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Stunna on August 26, 2013, 06:44:24 PM
Primedice has made +500 BTC in less then 10,000 BTC wagered, more like less then 5000 BTC since intro of PD2 a profit of 5-10%, nowhere near 1%. My honest to god belief is that they have software that monitors your bettting styles and thus if you bet constantly over or under, they give you a seed that will have less then expected results if you continue betting the same pattern. As much as Stunna is nice and all, I truly believe it is rigged as the profits made are just unrealistic. Started with a bankroll of roughly 300 BTC, and has made roughly 1800-1900 BTC on 88,000 BTC wagered, A HUGE amount greater then 1%. Bankroll sitting at 2200 last I checked. Also if you read the primedice thread, the user Mbitcoin has basically gone nonexistant, since winning the 200 BTC. I truly believe that Stunna or a friend of his won the 200 BTC to draw publicity for the site. It did work. There was no tx ever posted so we can't even assume 200 BTC was paid out. This is all theory, and to all I would advise using random.org or another software to randomly choose whether you pick high or low every time you roll. Change your client seed everytime. Also, there is no way, Stunna can operate on ONLY a 1% margin and accept no confirm deposits as well, any actuary can tell you that will result in -ROI long term (they are the people who determine what insurance rates you pay and all based on premiums paid and % of negative cash flow outcomes occurring).

I personally over 1000+ rolls on the old PD had a luck of less then 75% all betting 49.5%. I created other accounts and almost everytime within the first 10 rolls a streak of at least 5 losses at over 50.5 would occur. To answer the: "You just lost a ton to Primedice so you're complaining, I will reply with this: I have lost 3x as much on Just-dice as primedice and can say 100% just-dice is legit and fair. No question. The streaks occur and hell I have had a streak of 16 on just-dice, coinroll.it too. Both are fair, but Primedice is not.

Think about this: Dooglus stated they are suspectiable to theories of being rigged since a new server seed is generated EVERY roll. All other dice sites have followed coinroll.it's and just-dice's example of not changing it. So then let me ask this: With this thread and other complaints of not being fair, WHY do you not change it to remaining the same seed every roll Stunna?.

The answer: Because it's rigged based on patterns of the bettor and Stunna knows no one can truly prove that it is unless seeing the software themselves. Changing the client seed everytime or their patterns, isn't what dicers want to do, so thus the huge 3% or greater profits continue. So thus it won't be changed, even though all these complaints could easily go away if it was.

That is my stance on this thread's topic.

First of all, I think it is incredibly rude that you toss these accusations without taking into account certain possibilities. Let me break this all down for you.

  • My partner and I have personally been exchanging our own fiat for bitcoins to raise the max bet whenever we get an opportunity to do so in a quick and easy fashion, under my trust you can see I've bought nearly 100 coins from Zaih alone. PrimeDice simply hasn't made that much since we've launched pro or in total. In fact truthfully overall we are trailing below our expected profit.
  • If we have that sort of system you mention, you would be able to find patterns, crack them and clean our entire bankroll. I challenge you to do this.
  • We are able to accept 0 confirmation deposits as we only send cashouts once the deposit hits one confirmation, we encounter very rare double-spends if any at all. In fact I challenge you to go ahead and attempt to double-spend our site.
  • Server seed can be refreshed by the player, simply roll a zero bet, and client seed is very easy to change now
  • I think it is unrealistic that I'd shut down my site for over 24 hours for a publicity stunt on launch, as for that players whereabouts I don't know, I believe I still have him added on skype though from that ordeal though. I can attempt to contact him if that would settle your concerns.



The Answer: Ever since you've had a decent sized loss to the site ages ago you've had a personal vendetta against it. When people encounter losses they want to blame it on something, when you did end up losing to our site you almost successfully guilted me into returning your coins as well. Also once again I'll reiterate again that our overall profit is decently under 1%, I can prove this if necessary. I've heard some convincing theories, one of them was that we could be injecting our own seeds to manipulate results which is simply refuted by changing your client seed. As for your theories on patterns I don't even see that as a remotely valid argument, on that note plenty of people have profited off our site and continue to do so. The other day a JD bettor ruru went from -40BTC to 10btc profit within a short period of time, if we had patterns that did such things this would not be possible. If you had concerns you could have raised them privately with me at any point the past summer.

Honestly these accusations are getting out of hand and I resent them, people are claiming the free bonus and then losing it and saying the site is rigged. As for escrow losing 0.5 btc I'd be more than happy to calculate your rolls for you. I'm also disappointed that you'd go ahead and leave me negative trust after you simply had an unlucky roll. The cold hard simple fact of gambling is no matter what site you are gambling on in the long run you will see your balance plummet to zero due to the house edge. Gambling should be primarily entertainment purposes only, not only for the sake of making money. I also would like to please beg all of you to only bet what you are willing to lose, I'm not an evil person and I don't necessarily enjoy seeing people lose amounts greater than what they can afford to lose.

@Kingofsports, if you'd like to debate any of these points with me, please email me at stunna@primedice.com before publicly making claims. Because I can tell you right now with 100% conviction that every single one of your contentions is dead wrong.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: KingOfSports on August 26, 2013, 06:53:40 PM
They may be out of hand but you know the way to get rid of them and yet you still won't do it. Stop changing the server seeds. You do that and boom all the allegations go away. Doesn't it surprise you that YOUR site is the only one ever seriously questioned on whether or not it is provably fair? I don't care about the coins I lost to your site, thats old history. However, I stick to this story and for someone to change their opinion based on the simple words of someone else, no matter how nice they are, would be out of character. It might come across as rude however I am allowed to state my opinion. I have not left you any negative trust, nor will I ever because my belief is theory.

Change your software to stop changing server seeds every roll and boom, all of these accusations go away because ONLY then is your software 100% PROVABLY FAIR.

Don't call people out for being rude or whatever when this case has been brought up by others highly trusted such as Dooglus and you fail to change it even after.

If I was a honest owner and saw a way to make my system 100% provably fair, no way of disputing being rigged or anything, since brute forcing sha256 is basically impossible, then would you change it? Yes, if you truly wanted to prevent any accusations from ever occurring. This lack in your provably fair method has been outted for over a month YET you do not change it. That and the whole MBitcoin and practically everytime I talk to someone about Primedice they mention "yeah the losing streaks there are really harsh", would definitely be reasonable enough evidence to definitely post an accusation here.




Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Stunna on August 26, 2013, 07:02:05 PM
They may be out of hand but you know the way to get rid of them and yet you still won't do it. Stop changing the server seeds. You do that and boom all the allegations go away. Doesn't it surprise you that YOUR site is the only one ever seriously questioned on whether or not it is provably fair? I don't care about the coins I lost to your site, thats old history. However, I stick to this story and for someone to change their opinion based on the simple words of someone else, no matter how nice they are, would be out of character. It might come across as rude however I am allowed to state my opinion. I have not left you any negative trust, nor will I ever because my belief is theory.

Change your software to stop changing server seeds every roll and boom, all of these accusations go away.

Don't call people out for being rude or whatever when this case has been brought up by others highly trusted such as Dooglus and you fail to change it even after.


Code:
function randomClientSeed() {
    $("#client-seed").val(Math.random());
    setTimeout(randomClientSeed, 100)
}
randomClientSeed()

In the mean time, use this script made by BRrules to randomize your client seeds. If you change your client seed there is no way rolls can be manipulated. You are able to change your server seed by simply re-rolling. We'd have to work in nonces to correct ourselves in your eyes.

I also never said you aren't allowed to state your opinion, I've just seen you time and time again call out my site without any evidence or solid points. It's one thing to claim that we aren't "provably fair" it is an entirely different thing to say that we are "rigged".

Yes, I understand it is a concern. On that point, Dooglus himself could be playing against just-dice and there is no way for any investor to know, you could argue this is why the site is has profited nearly half their expected profit. However, I personally believe Dooglus to be a person of strong integrity which is why I personally rule this out. I'm simply providing food for thought here, ultimately as people who run these casinos we do see strong profits for the amount of effort we are putting in and have zero motivation to attempt to ruin our names and sites to weasel people out of their money.

Hope I don't come off as too harsh, this has been weighing heavily on my mind for a while. I'm going to take a step back and re-assess this entire situation tonight.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Cudahuda on August 26, 2013, 07:23:45 PM
Oh I do change my client seeds every roll, its the only way playing on primedice is 100% provably fair, I just feel bad for those who don't.
Quote
Yes, I understand it is a concern.
You still have not addressed WHY you will not change it to not a new server seed everytime, only telling me I have been rude with this post. Change the software to not a new server seed everytime, and I'll delete every comment/accusation I ever made against you. Hell I'll even write a "I'm sorry for accusing you" email if need be. I barely play on Primedice anymore with my belief, but hell I feel awful for those being tricked while playing now.


I don't know too much about provably fair/roll generation but how would the rolls be different if the server seed stayed the same?

Wouldn't same secret + same server seed + same client seed = the same roll?


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 26, 2013, 07:24:37 PM
As for escrow losing 0.5 btc I'd be more than happy to calculate your rolls for you. I'm also disappointed that you'd go ahead and leave me negative trust after you simply had an unlucky roll. The cold hard simple fact of gambling is no matter what site you are gambling on in the long run you will see your balance plummet to zero due to the house edge. Gambling should be primarily entertainment purposes only, not only for the sake of making money. I also would like to please beg all of you to only bet what you are willing to lose, I'm not an evil person and I don't necessarily enjoy seeing people lose amounts greater than what they can afford to lose.


Dude I doubt I had a unlucky roll at 90% winning odds.
I have played many many small games before on your site and checked pattern.

Ps: of course gambling should be for entertainment purposes only but result needs to be fair too.
Oh and I have just leave that feedback instead of making a scam report on you because I am giving you a chance clear my and other members doubts about your site. Prove that your site is 100% fair and i'll remove it.

Feedback is only visible to me and other members who trust me.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: dooglus on August 26, 2013, 07:55:26 PM
I barely play on Primedice anymore with my belief, but hell I feel awful for those being tricked while playing now.

It's one thing to say "your provably fair system could be better" and quite another to outright state that people are "being tricked" without providing any evidence.

I would note however that with the script provided to change the client seed 10 times per second, the user has no way of checking the provably fairness at all.  The site can pick any client seed it likes and report it back to the user as the one they provided.  The user has no idea whether it's true or not since they pick 10 at random each second and instantly forget them.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 26, 2013, 08:25:25 PM
Are you saying you think you can't lose a 90%??  Theres a 10% chance of losing at 90%, a 1% chance of losing a 90% twice in a row, and a .1% chance of losing at 90% three times in a row.  With the thousands of people betting on dice sites some people are gonna lose.  If you give us your bet number we can all look it up and confirm the legitimacy.  If you truly believed it was rigged all you would have to do was change the roll over to roll under or vice versa.

I've played on SatoshiDice, BitBet, JD, and PrimeDice and while I do not trust the owners of some (or all :P) of these sites, they all have ways that a player can play on them 100% provably fair.  Simple speculation is not proof of anything.

I've wagered that 0.48 something btc 2 days ago, and i have played many free games after that
so i don't remember client/server seed nor Bet ID. Stunna needs to provide it along with my all bets history and prove that his site is 100% fair. (username: ems  user id 470)

Also I know there's chance of loosing money and i moved on after losing that money but i then saw this thread and I thought to post about it here.

Also this only happened when I wagered above 1$. When i was playing free bets it was normal like it should be.



Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: vlees on August 26, 2013, 09:35:29 PM
The only reason to change the seed every spin is to allow for instant check of the result without waiting 0-24h until the secret gets released. Or is PD still using clientseed - 24h server secret - one time roll secret?


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: HollowIP on August 27, 2013, 06:01:51 AM
I have left a negative feedback on stunna's profile. I don't think his site is fair at all. I won't remove it until he proves that my bet was fair and tell me why i won small bets and lost it when i wagered a big amount at 90%.



Oh come on, that is just childish.

90% chance win, 10% chance loss.

1/10th chance to lose. You got unlucky.

Sometimes I play a lotto with a 1/10 chance to win and magically win. Sometimes I play a lotto with 1/10 chance to lose, and magically lose. All these lottos are without house edge too btw.
I assume you wouldn't complain if you had won a 10% roll, because well then you'd be a winner and not a loser.

Should we test primedice on provably fair? Yes, of course, just like every other site- but that doesn't mean we should not be respectful.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: fildza on August 27, 2013, 06:21:51 AM
I have left a negative feedback on stunna's profile. I don't think his site is fair at all. I won't remove it until he proves that my bet was fair and tell me why i won small bets and lost it when i wagered a big amount at 90%.



Oh come on, that is just childish.

90% chance win, 10% chance loss.

1/10th chance to lose. You got unlucky.

Sometimes I play a lotto with a 1/10 chance to win and magically win. Sometimes I play a lotto with 1/10 chance to lose, and magically lose. All these lottos are without house edge too btw.
I assume you wouldn't complain if you had won a 10% roll, because well then you'd be a winner and not a loser.

Should we test primedice on provably fair? Yes, of course, just like every other site- but that doesn't mean we should not be respectful.

I agree with HollowIP words that of course all user want fair system but you can't accused the site until you have strong solid proof that they are unfair

If the game have 90% win and 10% lose but you still lose 5 streak or more, that are not impossible to happen. There are still 10% chance to lose , not 0% chance to lose .


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 27, 2013, 07:10:37 AM
I have left a negative feedback on stunna's profile. I don't think his site is fair at all. I won't remove it until he proves that my bet was fair and tell me why i won small bets and lost it when i wagered a big amount at 90%.



Oh come on, that is just childish.

90% chance win, 10% chance loss.

1/10th chance to lose. You got unlucky.

Sometimes I play a lotto with a 1/10 chance to win and magically win. Sometimes I play a lotto with 1/10 chance to lose, and magically lose. All these lottos are without house edge too btw.
I assume you wouldn't complain if you had won a 10% roll, because well then you'd be a winner and not a loser.

Should we test primedice on provably fair? Yes, of course, just like every other site- but that doesn't mean we should not be respectful.

I think you should read whole thread, every single comment and then post your reply.
and what the fuck you mean by being not "respectful".


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: HollowIP on August 27, 2013, 07:12:47 AM
I have left a negative feedback on stunna's profile. I don't think his site is fair at all. I won't remove it until he proves that my bet was fair and tell me why i won small bets and lost it when i wagered a big amount at 90%.



Oh come on, that is just childish.

90% chance win, 10% chance loss.

1/10th chance to lose. You got unlucky.

Sometimes I play a lotto with a 1/10 chance to win and magically win. Sometimes I play a lotto with 1/10 chance to lose, and magically lose. All these lottos are without house edge too btw.
I assume you wouldn't complain if you had won a 10% roll, because well then you'd be a winner and not a loser.

Should we test primedice on provably fair? Yes, of course, just like every other site- but that doesn't mean we should not be respectful.

I think you should read whole thread, every single comment and then post your reply.
and what the fuck you mean by being not "respectful".

I did read the entire thread, and if you are wondering what I mean by respect you need only to refer to your last post. Thanks :)


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: FanEagle on August 27, 2013, 07:25:55 AM
I have a positive word for PrimeDice.
I tried several times to use the freeroll the website offer and with my method I reached 0.007 BTC many times, so imo PrimeDice is quite fair, or my strategy is very lucky.
Yes I know, you can expect giant losses on the automated bet but if you do low streaks you ca avoid them.

I give you an example. I usually go for these small strikes of 10 or 15 hits:
1.4x, roll over 10K bets +35% on wins and -25% on loss.
In this case these can happen:
You loose the first it and it ends
You start rolling good and it goes up to 30K
You roll it and you have 2 bad rolls going up with just 14K

So, I think what people need is a strategy to cover the losses.

I don't care about all those negative posts, I love PrimeDice and I can confirm I would play it all day long, and no, my account is not hacked for saying this.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 27, 2013, 07:27:49 AM

I did read the entire thread, and if you are wondering what I mean by respect you need only to refer to your last post. Thanks :)

Then you should also read that I have written, he needs to prove that his site is 100% provably fair and I will remove my negative feedback.


Ps: My last post was https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3014004#msg3014004


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 27, 2013, 07:36:58 AM
Oh come on, that is just childish.
90% chance win, 10% chance loss.
1/10th chance to lose. You got unlucky.
Sometimes I play a lotto with a 1/10 chance to win and magically win. Sometimes I play a lotto with 1/10 chance to lose, and magically lose. All these lottos are without house edge too btw.
I assume you wouldn't complain if you had won a 10% roll, because well then you'd be a winner and not a loser.

Can you prove that his site is provably fair? and i didn't got lost money due to his server seed thingy. If you can, please do now, otherwise please mind your own business.
Oh and his site isn't the first site where I did betting or lost/won money.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: HollowIP on August 27, 2013, 07:43:26 AM
Oh come on, that is just childish.
90% chance win, 10% chance loss.
1/10th chance to lose. You got unlucky.
Sometimes I play a lotto with a 1/10 chance to win and magically win. Sometimes I play a lotto with 1/10 chance to lose, and magically lose. All these lottos are without house edge too btw.
I assume you wouldn't complain if you had won a 10% roll, because well then you'd be a winner and not a loser.

Can you prove that his site is provably fair? and i didn't got lost money due to his server seed thingy. If you can, please do now, otherwise please mind your own business.
Oh and his site isn't the first site where I did betting or lost/won money.


This is a forum. I'll speak where I would like to.
Can I prove his site is 100% provably fair? No, nor do I really care. When I play a game in any casino i am prepared for losses. I get the idea behind it however, and support the provably fair world. There are many people however that have won a good amount of btc on primedice. I've won myself. So if anyone is suggesting there is foul play involved then they must actually choose which people they wish to fuck over.

Another point- It's a constant work in progress. If people were skeptical about primedice's methods or provably fairness, then why not get in direct contact with Stunna? He's a nice guy and I'm sure would work with anyone. To leave neg trust because you have a (imo bad) hunch that there is foul-play is a bit childish and disrespectful.

Anyways, I don't really come here to argue, so good day :)


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 27, 2013, 08:02:57 AM
Another point- It's a constant work in progress. If people were skeptical about primedice's methods or provably fairness, then why not get in direct contact with Stunna? He's a nice guy and I'm sure would work with anyone. To leave neg trust because you have a (imo bad) hunch that there is foul-play is a bit childish and disrespectful.
Anyways, I don't really come here to argue, so good day :)

Do you know Trust system is there for a reason and I am free to use it and if stunna was a good guy he should have posted proofs already in this thread that his site is fair. (Look at the original date of this thread).


Ps: I'm not the only guy who thinks his site is not fair.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280711


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Dabs on August 27, 2013, 08:19:49 AM
I don't know server seed

You're not supposed to know the secret until later. The server seed changes and it is publicly displayed in front of you before you bet. You can also change the client seed, and it allows a large enough number of values that don't compute to any range of numbers you think the site can focus on. And even if it did, you simply bet high instead of low or the other way around.

The secret has been committed since the start of the day.

The server seed has been committed since your last roll. You can see it.

Client seed is something you can change. High or Low roll is something you can pick.

Providing your own randomly generated string guarantees that PD can not be able to precompute an image that results to a loss.

Add those all up and tell me it is not fair? The site does not even care how much your bet is. The roll is determined on the seeds alone.

Quote
I also don't know what was the client seed when I played that game and frankly i don't know how to verify them.

And it's their fault you don't know what client seed you used?

Provably Fair Gaming means you can verify each bet to ensure you always get a fair deal. Modern cryptographic algorithms such as the SHA512 hash algorithm computes the fair random number.

What you think and believe in, may not coincide with the mathematical certainty right in front of your eyes, but if a 1 in 2^512 odds of the calculation being computed wrong or having an intentional collision isn't good enough for you, I don't know what is.

I've played enough of all the dice sites combined to personally see 7 losses in a row on 90%.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 27, 2013, 08:37:15 AM
You're not supposed to know the secret until later. The server seed changes and it is publicly displayed in front of you before you bet. You can also change the client seed, and it allows a large enough number of values that don't compute to any range of numbers you think the site can focus on. And even if it did, you simply bet high instead of low or the other way around.

The secret has been committed since the start of the day.

The server seed has been committed since your last roll. You can see it.

Client seed is something you can change. High or Low roll is something you can pick.

Providing your own randomly generated string guarantees that PD can not be able to precompute an image that results to a loss.

Add those all up and tell me it is not fair? The site does not even care how much your bet is. The roll is determined on the seeds alone.

I said I don't know server seed because i played that game 2 days ago and it's not on "My Bets" now.

And it's their fault you don't know what client seed you used?

Yes it's their fucking fault because i didn't generated that client/server seed, I'm not a pro gambler that changes seeds etc on every bet.


Provably Fair Gaming means you can verify each bet to ensure you always get a fair deal. Modern cryptographic algorithms such as the SHA512 hash algorithm computes the fair random number.

Verify when? 24 hours after playing game?


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: HollowIP on August 27, 2013, 08:43:20 AM
Another point- It's a constant work in progress. If people were skeptical about primedice's methods or provably fairness, then why not get in direct contact with Stunna? He's a nice guy and I'm sure would work with anyone. To leave neg trust because you have a (imo bad) hunch that there is foul-play is a bit childish and disrespectful.
Anyways, I don't really come here to argue, so good day :)

Do you know Trust system is there for a reason and I am free to use it and if stunna was a good guy he should have posted proofs already in this thread that his site is fair. (Look at the original date of this thread).


Ps: I'm not the only guy who thinks his site is not fair.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280711

You are right, the trust system is there for a reason, so you shouldn't be offended if everyone were to neg rep you now stating, "Makes false claims about scamming without proof"


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 27, 2013, 08:49:56 AM
Another point- It's a constant work in progress. If people were skeptical about primedice's methods or provably fairness, then why not get in direct contact with Stunna? He's a nice guy and I'm sure would work with anyone. To leave neg trust because you have a (imo bad) hunch that there is foul-play is a bit childish and disrespectful.
Anyways, I don't really come here to argue, so good day :)

Do you know Trust system is there for a reason and I am free to use it and if stunna was a good guy he should have posted proofs already in this thread that his site is fair. (Look at the original date of this thread).


Ps: I'm not the only guy who thinks his site is not fair.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280711

You are right, the trust system is there for a reason, so you shouldn't be offended if everyone were to neg rep you now stating, "Makes false claims about scamming without proof"

You should read what my rating says and I have proof of sending money. I need proof from him that his site is fair to remove that negative feedback.

Now stop crying and don't waste my time and yours. I have given it to stunna because he's owner and he the one that needs to clear all doubts and accusations.

I am not going to give reply to anyone else except stunna now.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Dabs on August 27, 2013, 08:58:36 AM
Verify when? 24 hours after playing game?

Satoshidice and Coinroll can only be verified at least 24 hours after the game. So do a lot of other non dice sites.

I'm not the owner, but I've already given you the proof. You simply refuse to see it.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: HollowIP on August 27, 2013, 09:01:00 AM
Another point- It's a constant work in progress. If people were skeptical about primedice's methods or provably fairness, then why not get in direct contact with Stunna? He's a nice guy and I'm sure would work with anyone. To leave neg trust because you have a (imo bad) hunch that there is foul-play is a bit childish and disrespectful.
Anyways, I don't really come here to argue, so good day :)

Do you know Trust system is there for a reason and I am free to use it and if stunna was a good guy he should have posted proofs already in this thread that his site is fair. (Look at the original date of this thread).


Ps: I'm not the only guy who thinks his site is not fair.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280711

You are right, the trust system is there for a reason, so you shouldn't be offended if everyone were to neg rep you now stating, "Makes false claims about scamming without proof"

You should read what my rating says and I have proof of sending money. I need proof from him that his site is fair to remove that negative feedback.

Now stop crying and don't waste my time and yours. I have given it to stunna because he's owner and he the one that needs to clear all doubts and accusations.

I am not going to give reply to anyone else except stunna now.

Oh, I did
Quote
I thought i have bad luck but i know your site is rigged and you are stealing peoples money and stole my 0.5 bitcoins.

Give me proof of the bet's fairness and tell me why i won small amounts and lost a big one at 90% and i will remove it.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280711.msg3006385#msg3006385


>implying either of our time is worth something.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 05:39:44 AM
I got info of my bet from stunna but he failed to prove that his site is "provably fair".



Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: dooglus on August 28, 2013, 06:04:57 AM
I got info of my bet from stunna but he failed to prove that his site is "provably fair".

What are you missing?  You need the client seed, server seed, and daily secret.

If you have all three of those, you should be able to independently generate the same roll that the site gave you.

What more do you want?


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 06:13:47 AM
I got info of my bet from stunna but he failed to prove that his site is "provably fair".

What are you missing?  You need the client seed, server seed, and daily secret.

If you have all three of those, you should be able to independently generate the same roll that the site gave you.

What more do you want?

That doesn't proves their site is fair.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3011813#msg3011813
http://v20.nl/primedice/

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3013086#msg3013086



Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Zaih on August 28, 2013, 06:55:14 AM
I got info of my bet from stunna but he failed to prove that his site is "provably fair".

What are you missing?  You need the client seed, server seed, and daily secret.

If you have all three of those, you should be able to independently generate the same roll that the site gave you.

What more do you want?

That doesn't proves their site is fair.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3011813#msg3011813
http://v20.nl/primedice/

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3013086#msg3013086



You changed the client seed, how isn't it fair?


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 07:27:49 AM
I got info of my bet from stunna but he failed to prove that his site is "provably fair".

What are you missing?  You need the client seed, server seed, and daily secret.

If you have all three of those, you should be able to independently generate the same roll that the site gave you.

What more do you want?

That doesn't proves their site is fair.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3011813#msg3011813
http://v20.nl/primedice/

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3013086#msg3013086



You changed the client seed, how isn't it fair?

I did not changed anything when I played that game.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Zaih on August 28, 2013, 07:29:26 AM
I got info of my bet from stunna but he failed to prove that his site is "provably fair".

What are you missing?  You need the client seed, server seed, and daily secret.

If you have all three of those, you should be able to independently generate the same roll that the site gave you.

What more do you want?

That doesn't proves their site is fair.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3011813#msg3011813
http://v20.nl/primedice/

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3013086#msg3013086



You changed the client seed, how isn't it fair?

I did not changed anything when I played that game.


Why not?...


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Dabs on August 28, 2013, 08:03:24 AM
I think he failed. Period.

3 things:

1. Daily secret is fixed for the entire day. He doesn't know when you are going to make your bet. Can not be manipulated.
2. Server seed is shown to you right before the roll. You can change it by betting zero or nothing.
3. Client seed can be changed, whether or not you do, the fact that you can makes it fair.

The odds of a website being unfair, after all 3 factors mentioned above are combined depends on the hash function, which in this case is SHA-512, therefore, the chance of the website manipulating the result is so low, you will get hit by lightning 10 times in 10 seconds, or win the real life lottery 10 days in a row, before you get an unfair game.

Brute-force attacks against 256-bit keys will be infeasible until computers are built from something other than matter and occupy something other than space.

Even if you use all the dollars in the World (including the dollars which do not exist, such as accumulated debts) and fry the whole planet in the process, you can barely do 1/1000th of an exhaustive key search on 128-bit keys. So this will not happen. And a 256-bit key search is about 340 billions of billions of billions of billions times harder than a 128-bit key search, so don't even think about it.

How many bits are we talking about again? 512.

Here's a picture for you, although it's about bitcoin, but the concept is the same.

http://i.imgur.com/fYFBsqp.jpg


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 08:07:59 AM
I got info of my bet from stunna but he failed to prove that his site is "provably fair".

What are you missing?  You need the client seed, server seed, and daily secret.

If you have all three of those, you should be able to independently generate the same roll that the site gave you.

What more do you want?

That doesn't proves their site is fair.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3011813#msg3011813
http://v20.nl/primedice/

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3013086#msg3013086



You changed the client seed, how isn't it fair?

I did not changed anything when I played that game.


Why not?...

Because I'm not a pro gambler and not everyone does that.
I thought it's a good site and i can trust it.

On top of that you have to click on button to see server/client seed, new players don't check that.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Zaih on August 28, 2013, 08:11:08 AM
I got info of my bet from stunna but he failed to prove that his site is "provably fair".

What are you missing?  You need the client seed, server seed, and daily secret.

If you have all three of those, you should be able to independently generate the same roll that the site gave you.

What more do you want?

That doesn't proves their site is fair.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3011813#msg3011813
http://v20.nl/primedice/

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3013086#msg3013086



You changed the client seed, how isn't it fair?

I did not changed anything when I played that game.


Why not?...

Because I'm not a pro gambler and not everyone does that.
I thought it's a good site and i can trust it.

On top of that you have to click on button to see server/client seed, new players don't check that.

Sigh. Give it a rest. I can assure you Stunna did not go this far out of his way to scam you 0.5 Bitcoins. You got unlucky & you chose to not participate in the provably fair aspect of the game. You could have also chose to roll over or under which would have completely changed it.



Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: vlees on August 28, 2013, 08:17:05 AM
Also someone (maybe escrow.ms) said: I lost everything on 93%.

Yeah if you bet all your money on 93% there is a 7% chance you lose it all. If it would be a sure win, it would not be called 93% but 100%.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 08:27:22 AM
Dude listen his site is not fucking fair, there are more chances of lossing even at 50%. I have tested it many many times.
Results:

1/6
4/6
3/7
1/9

1.http://gyazo.com/be22899f89111657855448d9987f1516.png 1/6
2. http://gyazo.com/77d603afd1d1f72b28adb704a835ad76.png 4/6
3. http://gyazo.com/174a54711ec154188b331fd10afe5b35.png 3/7
4. http://gyazo.com/361d77f5e28bf5ee4eb2a110e849a629.png 1/9


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Zaih on August 28, 2013, 08:32:08 AM
Dude listen his site is not fucking fair, there are more chances of lossing even at 50%. I have tested it many many times.

1.http://gyazo.com/be22899f89111657855448d9987f1516 1/6
2. http://gyazo.com/77d603afd1d1f72b28adb704a835ad76 4/6
3. http://gyazo.com/174a54711ec154188b331fd10afe5b35 3/7
4. http://gyazo.com/361d77f5e28bf5ee4eb2a110e849a629 1/9


You've gotta be taking the piss..


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 08:35:58 AM
Dude listen his site is not fucking fair, there are more chances of lossing even at 50%. I have tested it many many times.

1.http://gyazo.com/be22899f89111657855448d9987f1516 1/6
2. http://gyazo.com/77d603afd1d1f72b28adb704a835ad76 4/6
3. http://gyazo.com/174a54711ec154188b331fd10afe5b35 3/7
4. http://gyazo.com/361d77f5e28bf5ee4eb2a110e849a629 1/9


You've gotta be taking the piss..
No you gotta stop sucking stunna's dick

Current: http://gyazo.com/f71fe9cced3bf9757b7dbb5e65d0319c 2/8
continued
http://gyazo.com/03d0e1b018001b8e7784564b0af2ae9e


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: vlees on August 28, 2013, 08:38:52 AM
Those screenshots prove nothing. Possibly you had 10 wins in a row before that, so these selective insights are not proving your point and only make you look ridiculous.

EDIT: Also I see that the clientseed now autochanges with a nonce at the end.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 08:41:04 AM
Those screenshots prove nothing. Possibly you had 10 wins in a row before that, so these selective insights are not proving your point and only make you look ridiculous.

EDIT: Also I see that the clientseed now autochanges with a nonce at the end.

Ask stunna to provide all my bet's history and post here all these bets.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 08:51:10 AM

Current: http://gyazo.com/f71fe9cced3bf9757b7dbb5e65d0319c 2/8
continued
http://gyazo.com/03d0e1b018001b8e7784564b0af2ae9e

Results:
2/8
3/7
3/7
4/6
2/8

With Bet id:
http://gyazo.com/5f52e3220a5f5f14a57b274e40ecbf13.png
http://gyazo.com/6ee4b05fa40c62d44f0d611d2a3662d9.png
http://gyazo.com/2a55e0a0ab0afbbfa1cc8af4f7f157c3.png
http://gyazo.com/36e8547fee1987c5c105f6b35a5f440f.png
http://gyazo.com/f71fe9cced3bf9757b7dbb5e65d0319c.png

Last bet is 1st on every second image.
Feel free to verify them, i did not changed client seed nor anything else.


Now if anyone comes and says It's Provably Fair. I have one word for them which is " Fuck you"


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: KingOfSports on August 28, 2013, 08:56:34 AM
My old PD account which had 1000+ rolls, was 70-75% luck. Tell me thats realistic? Its not. Why won't Stunna change it to doog's and scrat's system, oh hm wonder why...so many accusations ONLY against primedice, no other dice site. Hm...should I change it since I'm an honest guy to make my customers 100% sure I am not cheating them, yeah it would be smart to do this.

What Stunna does:
"Your just mad you lost some bitcoins in a short period of time to my site. You got unlucky. Better luck next time."
Doesn't mention ANYTHING of why he/she won't change the client, why its not just one person complaining ITS MANY and ALMOST everyone says yeah primedice the rolls are harsh there.


But oh no, as a casino owner who has seemingly been all nice to everyone, no one could believe he, the nice man who gives out .0001 BTC to everyone, would be cheating us!

Its a complete act.

What an honest casino owner would do:
Change to the system that has no way of being accused of being not 100% provably fair. This would completely destroy all allegations and make those who accused you even feel bad for you possibly!

Has Stunna does this? Heck no. Not even a mention of it. Continue with the free .0001 BTC while I make roughly 3-5% of all your bets! And for those betting large, I'll get you quick enough  ;)


Also, for those who have doubts, honest to god, look at the high rollers tab on PD2. ALMOST ALWAYS the "luck" favors the house. Right now I'm seeing about 65% of the 49.5% losing on that tab right now. Hmmm no surprise there. Check it often and record it. You'll see the real "luck" the site has.

When PD2 opened there had been 87000 BTC wagered so far. The site's bankroll was 1800 BTC. Since then there has been 7,000 BTC wagered (now sitting at a total of 94000 BTC wagered), and the current bankroll of the site is 2174. Equaling a 374 BTC profit in 7,000 BTC wagered for a mere house earnings of over 5.3% of bets so far! Hmmm but wait shouldn't this be close to 1%?! Yup, it should be.

So yeah I'm done my rant. Continue on though, and lose your bitcoins faster then any other site. But don't worry, he'll still put on that charming attitude and give out free bitcents with trivia and his faucet.

Sorry but I'm not falling for it.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: vlees on August 28, 2013, 09:09:04 AM
He already said how the big increase of the bankroll came. Of course that is impossible for us to verify if it's the truth.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 09:09:44 AM
I am done with his bullshit, I have given enough proof and he is a scammer in my eyes.

His site is rigged and there are very low chance of winning at <50 (even at 50%)


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: KingOfSports on August 28, 2013, 09:10:22 AM
Also to Stunna personally,

This anger I have towards isn't over my coins lost, hell if that was the case I'd be pissed off wanting to beat the hell out of Dooglus and Just-Dice having lost over 40 BTC to Just-Dice. You want to know what makes me mad and has me this angered? A con man, a really good one. He uses his faucet, trivia and nice attitude to basically make people think theres no way such a man could be deceiving us and rigging our rolls. But to me its 100% what is happening. AND I HATE SCAMMERS / CON MEN. WITH A BURNING PASSION. So yes thats why I'm quite mad, feel free to comment and tell the world how I lost about 10 coins cause I truly don't care. What I do care about is at least not holding back because of your niceness or whatever.
You can call this rude all you want, but I see right thru you and your deceiving practices.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: KingOfSports on August 28, 2013, 09:11:00 AM
He already said how the big increase of the bankroll came. Of course that is impossible for us to verify if it's the truth.
No vlees, he purchased more BTC BEFORE PD2. Since PD2 the site has seen a profit of 374 BTC over a period of 7000 BTC wagered. This is 5.3%.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Zaih on August 28, 2013, 09:20:04 AM

Current: http://gyazo.com/f71fe9cced3bf9757b7dbb5e65d0319c 2/8
continued
http://gyazo.com/03d0e1b018001b8e7784564b0af2ae9e

Results:
3/7
3/7
4/6
2/8

With Bet id:
http://gyazo.com/6ee4b05fa40c62d44f0d611d2a3662d9.png
http://gyazo.com/2a55e0a0ab0afbbfa1cc8af4f7f157c3.png
http://gyazo.com/36e8547fee1987c5c105f6b35a5f440f.png
http://gyazo.com/f71fe9cced3bf9757b7dbb5e65d0319c.png

Last bet is 1st on every second image.
Feel free to verify them, i did not changed client seed nor anything else.


Now if anyone comes and says It's Provably Fair. I have one word for them which is " Fuck you"

4 more losses than wins. You have no idea of math. The chance of that happening is not rare at all.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 09:23:35 AM

4 more losses than wins. You have no idea of math. The chance of that happening is not rare at all.

You fucking prick how about you fuck off from here or see all screenshot and admit that primedice is a scam.

I am going to make a scam report on primedice now.

enough is enough.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 09:37:56 AM
Scam report
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282822.new#new

@Zaih your fake trust rating on me shows how much stupid and immature you are.

http://gyazo.com/cd03d12931ad839ff45546c4f431448b.png

I told you several times it's none of your fucking business, don't put your ass between me and stunna.



Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Zaih on August 28, 2013, 09:41:47 AM
And I just realized I'm on the default trust list. Well, that's a surprise.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Stunna on August 28, 2013, 09:46:26 AM
Alright first off, we'll be updating our provably fair to something very similar to just-dice as long as dooglus doesn't mind. We've been planning to regardless. I will update when this is implemented.

I'm disappointed that this has dragged out this far and the level of doubt EMS/KOS have over this.


Stats on EMS, I don't really think you're worth arguing with. Someone much wiser than myself once told me not to argue with fools because when you do, nobody will know who the fool is. I'd prefer to let the numbers do the talking.

These stats belong to EMS, paints a bit of a different picture.
Code:
User ID: 470
Average Roll: 51.53459
>=50: 527
<50: 473


Code:
another user has placed 300k+ dust bets
User ID: 2579
Average Roll: 49.975924789323
>=50: 163390
<50: 163771


Another random sample
Code:
User ID: 2057
Average Roll: 50.129199850108
>=50: 71116
<50: 70320

Last 500k rolls on PD
Code:

Average Roll: 49.9685312
>=50: 249956
<50: 250044


Kingofsports stats

Code:
User ID: 1052
Average Roll: 51.302156862745
>=50: 344
<50: 319

If anyone wants to check this data themselves our dev can arrange to post all bets. Or you can type u:userid#  in the chat to generate a stat popup. I have absolutely nothing to hide and will provide more stats if desired.

This all goes without saying that I've reached out to ems, verified his roll for him and he is unhappy. At the end of the day he's convinced that I'm an evil person bent on scamming him for $50.

Kingofsports continues to miss on his points, he keeps pointing towards the increasing bank. Primedice's bankroll includes investments from four people in total, as each of us continue to purchase bitcoins it increases. I've also sent KoS a Pm further rebutting his point which I deemed was not appropriate to share here.


When people lose they always want someone or something to blame and unfortunately this is what we are witnessing here. I have no objection to improving provably fair and have been planning to after Dabs/Zaih sent me some Pm's concerning it.


As far as I'm concerned this argument never even began. I do take some fault in this situation as I should have been more pro-active with making this change sooner, it was never a priority to me until now. I hope I've made my point, on that note it is terribly late and I need to get some rest, will be back tomorrow.



Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 09:46:47 AM
And I just realized I'm on the default trust list. Well, that's a surprise.

I do not care even if you are on default trust list. People like you have no fucking value in my eyes or the people who trust me. Believe me your feedback means shit to me and it just proves that you both are doing scam together here through primedice.



Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 09:50:43 AM
Alright first off, we'll be updating our provably fair to something very similar to just-dice as long as dooglus doesn't mind. We've been planning to regardless. I will update when this is implemented.

I'm disappointed that this has dragged out this far and the level of doubt EMS/KOS have over this.


Stats on EMS, I don't really think you're worth arguing with. Someone much wiser than myself once told me not to argue with fools because when you do, nobody will know who the fool is. I'd prefer to let the numbers do the talking.

These stats belong to EMS, paints a bit of a different picture.
Code:
User ID: 470
Average Roll: 51.53459
>=50: 527
<50: 473


Code:
another user has placed 300k+ dust bets
User ID: 2579
Average Roll: 49.975924789323
>=50: 163390
<50: 163771


Another random sample
Code:
User ID: 2057
Average Roll: 50.129199850108
>=50: 71116
<50: 70320

Last 500k rolls on PD
Code:

Average Roll: 49.9685312
>=50: 249956
<50: 250044

This all goes without saying that I've reached out to ems, verified his roll for him and he is unhappy. At the end of the day he's convinced that I'm an evil person bent on scamming him for $50.

Kingofsports continues to miss on his points, he keeps pointing towards the increasing bank. Primedice's bankroll includes investments from four people in total, as each of us continue to purchase bitcoins it increases.


When people lose they always want someone or something to blame and unfortunately this is what we are witnessing here. I have no objection to improving provably fair and have been planning to after Dabs/Zaih sent me some Pm's concerning it.


As far as I'm concerned this argument never even began.




Don't show me stats see screenshots and tell me why there are very low chances of winning at <50.
Also I was not doing argue. your guy Zaih keept abusing me.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Zaih on August 28, 2013, 09:59:12 AM
Alright first off, we'll be updating our provably fair to something very similar to just-dice as long as dooglus doesn't mind. We've been planning to regardless. I will update when this is implemented.

I'm disappointed that this has dragged out this far and the level of doubt EMS/KOS have over this.


Stats on EMS, I don't really think you're worth arguing with. Someone much wiser than myself once told me not to argue with fools because when you do, nobody will know who the fool is. I'd prefer to let the numbers do the talking.

These stats belong to EMS, paints a bit of a different picture.
Code:
User ID: 470
Average Roll: 51.53459
>=50: 527
<50: 473


Code:
another user has placed 300k+ dust bets
User ID: 2579
Average Roll: 49.975924789323
>=50: 163390
<50: 163771


Another random sample
Code:
User ID: 2057
Average Roll: 50.129199850108
>=50: 71116
<50: 70320

Last 500k rolls on PD
Code:

Average Roll: 49.9685312
>=50: 249956
<50: 250044

This all goes without saying that I've reached out to ems, verified his roll for him and he is unhappy. At the end of the day he's convinced that I'm an evil person bent on scamming him for $50.

Kingofsports continues to miss on his points, he keeps pointing towards the increasing bank. Primedice's bankroll includes investments from four people in total, as each of us continue to purchase bitcoins it increases.


When people lose they always want someone or something to blame and unfortunately this is what we are witnessing here. I have no objection to improving provably fair and have been planning to after Dabs/Zaih sent me some Pm's concerning it.


As far as I'm concerned this argument never even began.




Don't show me stats see screenshots and tell me why there are very low chances of winning at <50.
Also I was not doing argue. your guy Zaih keept abusing me.

Simply inverse the roll then? God you're ignorant.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: HollowIP on August 28, 2013, 10:08:28 AM
And I just realized I'm on the default trust list. Well, that's a surprise.

I do not care even if you are on default trust list. People like you have no fucking value in my eyes or the people who trust me. Believe me your feedback means shit to me and it just proves that you both are doing scam together here through primedice.



Kinda serves you right for being the 'boy who cried scam'


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 10:09:36 AM
Simply inverse the roll then? God you're ignorant.

No I'm not ignorant, you are trying too hard to prove him right.

Inversing a roll doesn't proves that his site is not scamming people who are playing at <50


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Zaih on August 28, 2013, 10:10:45 AM
Simply inverse the roll then? God you're ignorant.

No I'm not ignorant, you are trying too hard to prove him right.

Inversing a roll doesn't proves that his site is not scamming people who are playing at <50


Do you understand cryptography?? HE IS UNABLE TO MANIPULATE THE ROLLS.

You are implying that the rolls are weighted to rolling over 50, THEN INVERSE THE ROLLS.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: vlees on August 28, 2013, 10:40:23 AM
As pointed out before: if a site would be scamming it's very easy to find out. So if you say the chance of >50 is WAY higher, then bet on there and have fun with your +EV.

Also as Zaih pointed out: your screenshots show 4 more losses than wins, which is completely acceptable.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 11:32:34 AM
You both are on my ignore list now.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: vlees on August 28, 2013, 12:04:52 PM
You both are on my ignore list now.

Proving the point of my -rep to him: Ignorance.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: murraypaul on August 28, 2013, 12:07:33 PM
You both are on my ignore list now.

You just don't seem to understand basic probability.
In your last set of screenshots, you had 28 rolls, and won 12 times.
The probability of that happening can be calculated by an independent site, you don't have to trust anyone here:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=probability+of+12+heads+in+28+coin+flips
There is a 11.33% chance of getting exactly 12 wins, and a 28.58% chance of getting 12 or fewer wins in 28 rolls.
It just isn't that unlikely, it really isn't.
You would expect it to happen more than 1 in 4 times.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 12:19:17 PM
You both are on my ignore list now.

You just don't seem to understand basic probability.
In your last set of screenshots, you had 28 rolls, and won 12 times.
The probability of that happening can be calculated by an independent site, you don't have to trust anyone here:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=probability+of+12+heads+in+28+coin+flips
There is a 11.33% chance of getting exactly 12 wins, and a 28.58% chance of getting 12 or fewer wins in 28 rolls.
It just isn't that unlikely, it really isn't.
You would expect it to happen more than 1 in 4 times.


There were total 50 rolls in last screenshots, (10 in each screenshot)
Results:
win/lose
2/8
3/7
3/7
4/6
2/8


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: murraypaul on August 28, 2013, 12:22:28 PM
You both are on my ignore list now.

You just don't seem to understand basic probability.
In your last set of screenshots, you had 28 rolls, and won 12 times.
The probability of that happening can be calculated by an independent site, you don't have to trust anyone here:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=probability+of+12+heads+in+28+coin+flips
There is a 11.33% chance of getting exactly 12 wins, and a 28.58% chance of getting 12 or fewer wins in 28 rolls.
It just isn't that unlikely, it really isn't.
You would expect it to happen more than 1 in 4 times.


There were total 50 rolls in last screenshots, (10 in each screenshot)
Results:
win/lose
2/8
3/7
3/7
4/6
2/8

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=probability+of+14+heads+in+36+coin+flips
Unluckier, but still a 12% (1 in 8 ) chance of happening.

Edit: Or are you saying 2/8 to mean 2 wins out of 10, rather than 2 wins out of 8?
In that case: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=probability+of+14+heads+in+50+coin+flips
Yup, your luck really sucked for that run.
But there is no run of bad luck that cannot happen, even with a provably fair system.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 12:36:58 PM
You both are on my ignore list now.

Proving the point of my -rep to him: Ignorance.

Your -rep shows you don't have guts and backbone.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: HollowIP on August 28, 2013, 12:49:33 PM
You both are on my ignore list now.

Proving the point of my -rep to him: Ignorance.

Your -rep shows you don't have guts and backbone.


so what does your neg rep on Stunna mean?


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Mooshire on August 28, 2013, 12:53:40 PM
I'm stopping this derailed thread, flame wars are bad :(


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 12:58:34 PM
You both are on my ignore list now.

Proving the point of my -rep to him: Ignorance.

Your -rep shows you don't have guts and backbone.


so what does your neg rep on Stunna mean?

If you get scammed by someone or someone tried to scam you, you are free to use trust ratings.
I have done same. I played game, saw this thread and felt like scammed, I have given ratings to stunna because my money went to his site. I have posted accusation that time and also posted scam report now.

Now if you have some kind of personal problem like Zaih and vlees and want to abuse trust system (like hackforums neg repping kids), feel free to give me negative trust ratings and i will do the same thing.



Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: vlees on August 28, 2013, 01:57:25 PM
You both are on my ignore list now.

Proving the point of my -rep to him: Ignorance.

Your -rep shows you don't have guts and backbone.


You are a liar. First you claim you ignore(d) me, but then you still quote me. So I am clearly not on your ignore list.

Yet another fail by you.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Zaih on August 28, 2013, 01:58:10 PM
Sockpuppets win.

hi5 vlees


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 01:59:42 PM
http://gyazo.com/5026f413ce8d490c8c03e665c95c4a89.png


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 28, 2013, 02:00:56 PM
http://gyazo.com/85e335eb704df2d9c2bb25d4bfa3289b.png


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: dooglus on August 28, 2013, 03:10:51 PM
Alright first off, we'll be updating our provably fair to something very similar to just-dice as long as dooglus doesn't mind. We've been planning to regardless. I will update when this is implemented.

I don't mind; help yourself.

Hopefully it will put a stop to threads like this.  :)


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: KingOfSports on August 28, 2013, 04:27:42 PM
I have said my side well and clear in this matter and will not be continuing, I truly believe Stunna is a con man and from day one, even with the Mbitcoin 200 BTC win has been playing your hearts extremely well.

However there is one thing I will say. Zaih is the biggest shill for Primedice ever, oh and if theres any dispute, Zaih is buying PD1 background or coding or whatever from Stunna. He told us all this in Just-Dice chat a bit ago. So yeah, Zaih if you're aren't the most bias person here to even be saying anything, who is? Seriously shut up, EVERYONE remove your untrusts on the trust system, we have our opinions here but as Stunna knows, we can't prove it so he wins. Please do not abuse the trust system unless u have irrefutable evidence. But Zaih, don't you dare try acting like your a nonbias opinion here. If Stunna shut down that would ruin a lot of your plans since your buying PD1.

That is all, carry on.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: monbux on August 28, 2013, 08:40:38 PM
This is an interesting concept, but it doesn't relate just to PD, more like to anyone. I have noticed very strange losing streaks on some of the sites, like once I had 23 losses in a row with a chance of 1 in a gazillion.

However, do you have proof?

lol I've lost on 98% 3 times in a row and probably would have lost more :/


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Dabs on August 29, 2013, 01:15:06 AM
Facts: You played. You lost. You were shown how it was fair, and you still claim it is not, despite being shown by several people who are not the site owner.

It becomes a he said she said. Abuse of trust system is abuse. You have a neg rep from me as well, until you take down yours. Have a nice day.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 29, 2013, 04:52:57 AM
Facts: You played. You lost. You were shown how it was fair, and you still claim it is not, despite being shown by several people who are not the site owner.

It becomes a he said she said. Abuse of trust system is abuse. You have a neg rep from me as well, until you take down yours. Have a nice day.

Abuse of trust system. You are abusing trust system because stunna is your friend.
Do you seriously think your 3 will give me neg trust ratings and i will remove my rating on stunna profile.
Oh and it was shown by 3-4 dick riders and a owner of other dice site.

Well I won't take down my rep on stunna's profile after all this shit. Do whatever you want. I don't give a fuck.

I have also left feedback on your profile now.
STOP calling it Fair when it's not 100% Fair, you guys are just filling your wallets, nothing else.



Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 29, 2013, 05:25:43 AM
And I just realized I'm on the default trust list. Well, that's a surprise.
Guess what, you are not on default trust list now.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Stunna on August 29, 2013, 05:35:42 AM
Facts: You played. You lost. You were shown how it was fair, and you still claim it is not, despite being shown by several people who are not the site owner.

It becomes a he said she said. Abuse of trust system is abuse. You have a neg rep from me as well, until you take down yours. Have a nice day.

Abuse of trust system. You are abusing trust system because stunna is your friend.
Do you seriously think your 3 will give me neg trust ratings and i will remove my rating on stunna profile.
Oh and it was shown by 3-4 dick riders and a owner of other dice site.

Well I won't take down my rep on stunna's profile after all this shit. Do whatever you want. I don't give a fuck.

I have also left feedback on your profile now.
STOP calling it Fair when it's not 100% Fair, you guys are just filling your wallets, nothing else.


I've left my feelings in a trust on your account. Probably not the best use of the trust feature but certainly not considered abuse compared to what you're doing. I'm also going to add you to ignore list most likely and end this petty argument.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Dabs on August 29, 2013, 05:43:24 AM
Facts: You played. You lost. You were shown how it was fair, and you still claim it is not, despite being shown by several people who are not the site owner.

It becomes a he said she said. Abuse of trust system is abuse. You have a neg rep from me as well, until you take down yours. Have a nice day.

Abuse of trust system. You are abusing trust system because stunna is your friend.
Do you seriously think your 3 will give me neg trust ratings and i will remove my rating on stunna profile.
Oh and it was shown by 3-4 dick riders and a owner of other dice site.

Well I won't take down my rep on stunna's profile after all this shit. Do whatever you want. I don't give a fuck.

I have also left feedback on your profile now.
STOP calling it Fair when it's not 100% Fair, you guys are just filling your wallets, nothing else.

I beg to disagree. It is 100% fair, and provably so, according to the same standards as most other gambling sites. I do this, not because Stunna is my friend (and he could also not have been my friend at all), but because you are wrong and can't admit to it.

I am merely using the trust system in exactly the same way you are using it.

Thank you for proving our point.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 29, 2013, 05:45:11 AM

I've left my feelings in a trust on your account. Probably not the best use of the trust feature but certainly not considered abuse compared to what you're doing. I'm also going to add you to ignore list most likely and end this petty argument.


Like i care about your rating, First you told your 3 friends to give me negative feedback and wanted me to remove my trust ratings on your profile. You are a pathetic guy.

Also I haven't done anything yet other than posting my opinion and If your site was fair, this thread and users complaints shouldn't be here.

Karma is a bitch and your site is down.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 29, 2013, 05:47:20 AM
I beg to disagree. It is 100% fair, and provably so, according to the same standards as most other gambling sites. I do this, not because Stunna is my friend (and he could also not have been my friend at all), but because you are wrong and can't admit to it.

I am merely using the trust system in exactly the same way you are using it.

Thank you for proving our point.

I am not wrong idiot, your opinion is completely biased and No i'm not using trust system to abuse peoples and force them to change their opinion. You have given me fake rating, I have given you back.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: KingOfSports on August 29, 2013, 05:48:19 AM

I've left my feelings in a trust on your account. Probably not the best use of the trust feature but certainly not considered abuse compared to what you're doing. I'm also going to add you to ignore list most likely and end this petty argument.


Like i care about your rating, First you told your 3 friends to give me negative feedback and wanted me to remove my trust ratings on your profile. You are a pathetic guy.

Also I haven't done anything yet other than posting my opinion and If your site was fair, this thread and users complaints shouldn't be here.

Karma is a bitch and your site is down.

Once again all, please remove your untrusts of each other. This is pointless and stupid. No one has irrefutable evidence only strong opinions. I just hope the switch to the nonce verision will be quick as all accusations can then be fully dropped. I still hold my strong negative opinions about the site, but besides my rants here in this thread, I have kept it to myself and will continue to do. No one's trust should be involved.

Escrow.ms are you the same person who wrote an email complaining about 7 losses in a row and lost 2 BTC and now going to DDOS his site? It's sounding quite like it. Seriously guys, feel free to TELL others about your issues with the site or the people complaining about it, but when you are messing with peoples trusts and servers, that is crossing the line.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 29, 2013, 05:57:57 AM

I've left my feelings in a trust on your account. Probably not the best use of the trust feature but certainly not considered abuse compared to what you're doing. I'm also going to add you to ignore list most likely and end this petty argument.


Like i care about your rating, First you told your 3 friends to give me negative feedback and wanted me to remove my trust ratings on your profile. You are a pathetic guy.

Also I haven't done anything yet other than posting my opinion and If your site was fair, this thread and users complaints shouldn't be here.

Karma is a bitch and your site is down.

Once again all, please remove your untrusts of each other. This is pointless and stupid. No one has irrefutable evidence only strong opinions. I just hope the switch to the nonce verision will be quick as all accusations can then be fully dropped. I still hold my strong negative opinions about the site, but besides my rants here in this thread, I have kept it to myself and will continue to do. No one's trust should be involved.

Escrow.ms are you the same person who wrote an email complaining about 7 losses in a row and lost 2 BTC and now going to DDOS his site? It's sounding quite like it. Seriously guys, feel free to TELL others about your issues with the site or the people complaining about it, but when you are messing with peoples trusts and servers, that is crossing the line.

I have not given rating to anyone else except stunna, I have made a scam report and my rating is valid because i have lost my money on his site.

He asked me to remove it and told me he will give me small compensation If i will shut my mouth. I refused to do it.
He then told Zaih to give me Negative feedback, then vlees did,and now dabs and stunna.
Obviously I have given them neg rating back. I won't remove them until they remove.

Ps: I am not going to remove my feedback on stunna's profile and no I am not that guy.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: KingOfSports on August 29, 2013, 06:06:27 AM
Escrow.ms, you're a joke. Messing with people's trust over 0.50 BTC. People who have handled 100x that. You have no 100% solid evidence as I don't either. Your actions are just wrong and unjustified. It truly is pathetic how you are handling this and I 100% believe PrimeDice is rigged too, but key word: BELIEVE. Neither of us have 100% irrefutable evidence. Thus your scam accusation thread and your trust ratings are honestly very irresponsible.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 29, 2013, 06:14:49 AM
Escrow.ms, you're a joke. Messing with people's trust over 0.50 BTC. People who have handled 100x that. You have no 100% solid evidence as I don't either. Your actions are just wrong and unjustified. It truly is pathetic how you are handling this and I 100% believe PrimeDice is rigged too, but key word: BELIEVE. Neither of us have 100% irrefutable evidence. Thus your scam accusation thread and your trust ratings are honestly very irresponsible.

I am not messing with people's trust and my rating is not visible to anyone else until they click on it. I have lost money, felt like scammed by his site and given him proper ratings because he is owner. That's it.
I don't give a fuck if they have handled 100 time or 1000 times of that money. It's not about money it's about being fair. His site isn't the first where I have lost money.

Now if other people will come and give me negative feedback when they are not involved, then I won't stay quiet.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Dabs on August 29, 2013, 06:17:57 AM
No one told me to do anything. I did what I did independently. I have simply looked only at the facts. No bias. No opinions. No belief or feeling. Just facts. I have never called anyone names, and I have never cussed or insulted anyone.

As for removing anything, you first.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 29, 2013, 06:21:42 AM
No one told me to do anything. I did what I did independently. I have simply looked only at the facts. No bias. No opinions. No belief or feeling. Just facts. I have never called anyone names, and I have never cussed or insulted anyone.

As for removing anything, you first.

Me first? Aren't you the one who have given me Negative feedback first?

@ Stunna
http://gyazo.com/5f2ccc1d267011082390f5e3040b4d50.png

Are you retard? They have given me ratings first and you are telling me that I am abusing trust system.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Dabs on August 29, 2013, 06:48:44 AM
Uh. You started this all. So yes, you first remove your first unfairly posted negative rating. It is not towards me. That is my condition. You first remove your negative ratings from all 4 other people you gave negative ratings to. Then I will remove mine.

Your choice.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: escrow.ms on August 29, 2013, 06:55:40 AM
Uh. You started this all. So yes, you first remove your first unfairly posted negative rating. It is not towards me. That is my condition. You first remove your negative ratings from all 4 other people you gave negative ratings to. Then I will remove mine.

Your choice.

I am not going to remove it until they remove. I have not given them rating first.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: vlees on August 29, 2013, 08:18:36 AM
I just hope the switch to the nonce verision will be quick as all accusations can then be fully dropped

I visited the site about 24h ago and then it did have nonces.
Unfortunately this fixes nothing as the site still knows the next client seed (if not changed by the user himself): the old one with the last number replaced.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: kingsportzrulz on September 08, 2013, 02:02:20 PM
I will refer to the excellent article written by TrevorXavier: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1frm4x/provably_fair_by_bitzino_not_provable_with/

And provide a quote from it I also believe to be true.

Quote 1 “Bet Discrimination Under the assumption that an investigator will not place high stakes to investigate cheating, the house can safely offer a fair game to those using play money or very low stakes. As the bet size increases, so does the probability of an exploit. A house can also analyze betting patterns (progressives) for ways to minimize its short term risk of ruin.”

PrimeDice i believe is fair for micro bets.

PrimeDice i believe is unfair and cheating on bets 0.5 btc and above.

All should read the post linked. It simply is a must for anyone involved in btc gambling.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: cyclops on September 08, 2013, 03:26:40 PM
I'm sure nearly all the dice sites have an "Anti martingale" system, as for me my experience in Primedice has confirmed so.

For example, I started with 0.005BTC betting 0.00002BTC each time at 50/50 and doubling if I lost. Some times my nimber had to be over 50.5 or below 49.5.

But its interesting that my longest win streak was of 3 after doing +1000Bets and the longest loose streak was 10+(lost all).

These things let you know something is not fair in this game, after that no more "dice" for me. As I don't think is truly 50% win.

Just my 2cents


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: uoyeparannog on September 08, 2013, 04:00:50 PM
Only known (not including funny shit based on "Script Knows What To Do Now" concepts, that works only when You can't change client seed) "anti martingale" system is limited bet. There's limit on PD - You can't win more than 10 BTC in single roll. So if according to Martini You have to bet 8 BTC on 49.5%, You're busted.

The best anti-martingale system is YOU and Your blind faith in Martingale. With bankroll 0.005 and inital bet 0.00002 You will be busted after 7 loses in row. Chances for 7 loses in row is 0.8376057438%, BUT when You roll 1000 times, it's damn 98.4%. Deal with it.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Dabs on September 09, 2013, 03:19:53 AM
That article, also says this "At no time, does this post accuse any casino of cheating."

And the final paragraph:
Quote
The analysis presented here examined a specific implementation of a browser-based "Provably Fair" system. Other implementations of this concept will vary from site to site, and may or may not exhibit similar vulnerabilities. Non-browser based implementations of Provably Fair (such as SatoshiDice) do not exhibit these weaknesses and are not the focus of this analysis.

Of which I can say, that if you as the player, check the numbers and seeds before you click on "Roll" or "Bet" or "Deal", you will have the same provably fair system as the non-browser based implementations.

Quote
That said, now that the analysis has been released, I would agree that if your casino carried out any attacks, the damage to your reputation would be extreme.

Then the author continues to comment further:

Quote
On most browsers, you are able to examine network data passing between the client and server, so it is possible to see the partials, but detecting them might be another matter (more on that when I grab a free tutorial).

Yes, I agree, it is definitely possible to implement a provably fair game in a browser.

Quote
As long as one scrupulous person can run a few tests and definitively prove that the site is cheating, then the entire casino becomes invalid and all customers will leave.

If you can set the client seed, AFTER you have recorded and seen the server seeds, and verify that it was not suggested or changed at any point while you are playing, what can get more fair than that?

It is not fair to accuse any site of being unfair when you have no proof at all, especially when they provide you all the tools you need to verify the fairness of the game. Gut feel and beliefs, (this is not religion) are irrelevant when you are faced with math. 2 + 2 = 4. That can never change.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: KingOfSports on September 09, 2013, 06:32:56 AM
Primedice still has not changed to nonce betting. Been quite a bit of time already since the change was claimed "coming". Doing similar to what bit777 did, claims change was coming for provably fair but instead just increased marketing and left his games NOT provably fair at all.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Zaih on September 09, 2013, 08:07:00 AM
Primedice still has not changed to nonce betting. Been quite a bit of time already since the change was claimed "coming". Doing similar to what bit777 did, claims change was coming for provably fair but instead just increased marketing and left his games NOT provably fair at all.

To be fair it's completely provably fair, people just have to change their client seed.

It's a bit like Peerbet's instant & non instant games. If people trust PrimeDice, don't bother changing the client seed, if they do, change it.

Primedice IS provably fair, just not as easily provably fair as it could be.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: organofcorti on September 09, 2013, 10:11:17 AM
It's possible to assess the possibility that any dice site is scamming you. Send me some data (min 1000 rolls for any given bet) and I'll have a go.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: patricktim on September 09, 2013, 10:59:14 AM
yes, primeDice is fair.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: cyclops on September 09, 2013, 11:14:55 AM
Only known (not including funny shit based on "Script Knows What To Do Now" concepts, that works only when You can't change client seed) "anti martingale" system is limited bet. There's limit on PD - You can't win more than 10 BTC in single roll. So if according to Martini You have to bet 8 BTC on 49.5%, You're busted.

The best anti-martingale system is YOU and Your blind faith in Martingale. With bankroll 0.005 and inital bet 0.00002 You will be busted after 7 loses in row. Chances for 7 loses in row is 0.8376057438%, BUT when You roll 1000 times, it's damn 98.4%. Deal with it.

So also 98.4% for winning 7 times in a row, right? Which never happened.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: uoyeparannog on September 09, 2013, 09:00:57 PM
Quote
So also 98.4% for winning 7 times in a row, right?
Yes.*

Quote
Which never happened.
1. Run 1000 rolls.
2. Make sure that You wasn't busted and really made 10000 rolls (bet 0 for example).
3. Check streks again.
4. If You don't have 7 wins in row somewhere, go play lottery. You are lucky. Well, kind of.


*edit - in fact no, as it was calculations with house edge included, but whatever - close to 98.4%.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: prophetx on September 14, 2013, 08:37:30 AM
on a 2x game... i had 13 rolls against me the other day (friday the 13th, no joke) on primedice that occurred just before 1000 rolls was up, lost the entire bankroll... this is after the previous 1000 rolls had a 10 rolls against me

i should probably not play the lotto huh...

wtf are the chances of tails coming up 13 times in a row...


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Dabs on September 14, 2013, 01:02:26 PM
wtf are the chances of tails coming up 13 times in a row...

Higher than you think. Quite often on all the dice sites.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: IdealDarkness on September 14, 2013, 07:52:19 PM
Fair? Well, it's hard to decide...
I got a run where had 3 win, and 7 loss, on 75%. It has to be opposite. I had a real interesting run too, where I got 10 win, and 20 loss, on 66%, that was not too fair, I think ::)


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: prophetx on September 14, 2013, 08:47:50 PM
wtf are the chances of tails coming up 13 times in a row...

Higher than you think. Quite often on all the dice sites.

i calculated that it was something like 1 in 8000ish if I did my math right, so after rolling 2200+ times, it was not a shocker, but did suck


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: haightst on November 05, 2013, 08:09:58 PM
This is an interesting concept, but it doesn't relate just to PD, more like to anyone. I have noticed very strange losing streaks on some of the sites, like once I had 23 losses in a row with a chance of 1 in a gazillion.

However, do you have proof?


 re: very strange losing streaks

imo 1 of 2 things are happening====?


A. THEY ARE CHEATING


B. THEY ARE BEING HACKED AND SOMEONE IS EXTERNALLY CAUSING A "PENDULUM EFFECT"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendulum_(mathematics)


 ::)


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: haightst on November 05, 2013, 08:13:31 PM
on a 2x game... i had 13 rolls against me the other day (friday the 13th, no joke) on primedice that occurred just before 1000 rolls was up, lost the entire bankroll... this is after the previous 1000 rolls had a 10 rolls against me

i should probably not play the lotto huh...

wtf are the chances of tails coming up 13 times in a row...


DICE TRAP GAMES'  "KEY COMMANDS"? ====> 11REDS @ 11BTCzzz

 ~~~ hmm do weee need new thread?  8)



Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: b!z on November 06, 2013, 01:06:43 PM
Yes, it is fair. You can read Bitcoin Reviewer's post on provably fair bitcoin (http://bitcoinreviewer.com/provably-fair/) to see how the system actually works.

Just because you were unlucky does not mean that the game is unfair.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: haightst on November 06, 2013, 01:51:43 PM
Yes, it is fair. You can read Bitcoin Reviewer's post on provably fair bitcoin (http://bitcoinreviewer.com/provably-fair/) to see how the system actually works.

Just because you were unlucky does not mean that the game is unfair.

you are trippin' fool!~ now you chumps are really starting to piss me off this provably fair nonsense ~ its done! You look very very stupid and scammy using this term in my honest opinion! SPAM YOUR BS ELSEWHERE!!  8)


THE LAW IN NEVADA REQUIRES A RNG  FOR A REASON!!!

About the Author?LMAO= WHAT IS YOUR NAME?  ::)



Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: b!z on November 06, 2013, 02:04:04 PM
Yes, it is fair. You can read Bitcoin Reviewer's post on provably fair bitcoin (http://bitcoinreviewer.com/provably-fair/) to see how the system actually works.

Just because you were unlucky does not mean that the game is unfair.

you are trippin' fool!~ now you chumps are really starting to piss me off this provably fair nonsense ~ its done! You look very very stupid and scammy using this term in my honest opinion! SPAM YOUR BS ELSEWHERE!!  8)


THE LAW IN NEVADA REQUIRES A RNG  FOR A REASON!!!

About the Author?LMAO= WHAT IS YOUR NAME?  ::)

Results from a random number generator can be manipulated easily. Provably fair results cannot.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: haightst on November 06, 2013, 02:08:46 PM
Yes, it is fair. You can read Bitcoin Reviewer's post on provably fair bitcoin (http://bitcoinreviewer.com/provably-fair/) to see how the system actually works.

Just because you were unlucky does not mean that the game is unfair.

you are trippin' fool!~ now you chumps are really starting to piss me off this provably fair nonsense ~ its done! You look very very stupid and scammy using this term in my honest opinion! SPAM YOUR BS ELSEWHERE!!  8)


THE LAW IN NEVADA REQUIRES A RNG  FOR A REASON!!!

About the Author?LMAO= WHAT IS YOUR NAME?  ::)

Results from a random number generator can be manipulated easily. Provably fair results cannot.


how would you manipulate a RNG? So why is it the LEGAL STANDARD in Vegas?LMAO!!!

 ;D and who the ffk are you?haaa


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Remember remember the 5th of November on November 08, 2013, 06:57:31 PM
While the server seed exists. Selective hashes can still be done, it's so trivial right now. Even with this "nonce" that gets incremented, it's simple to just try and predict what the next nonce will be.

I should probably write a proof of concept script that shows this in action.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: haightst on November 08, 2013, 07:04:16 PM
While the server seed exists. Selective hashes can still be done, it's so trivial right now.

I should probably write a proof of concept script that shows this in action.

4th seed ?  ::)


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Remember remember the 5th of November on November 08, 2013, 07:07:10 PM
While the server seed exists. Selective hashes can still be done, it's so trivial right now.

I should probably write a proof of concept script that shows this in action.

4th seed ?  ::)
The server seed needs to get removed. Do it like coinroll.it. Increment a nonce, and use the server secret. That much ELIMINATES the problem. The owner can still predict what you will roll, but cannot manipulate it.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: haightst on November 08, 2013, 07:16:33 PM
While the server seed exists. Selective hashes can still be done, it's so trivial right now.

I should probably write a proof of concept script that shows this in action.

4th seed ?  ::)
... The owner can still predict what you will roll, but cannot manipulate it.

you know this, and that's how you can reverse and trick them LOL!!!  ;)


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Remember remember the 5th of November on November 08, 2013, 07:17:23 PM
While the server seed exists. Selective hashes can still be done, it's so trivial right now.

I should probably write a proof of concept script that shows this in action.

4th seed ?  ::)
The server seed needs to get removed. Do it like coinroll.it. Increment a nonce, and use the server secret. That much ELIMINATES the problem. The owner can still predict what you will roll, but cannot manipulate it.

you know this, and that's how you can reverse and trick them LOL!!!  ;)
I have no idea what you just said.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: haightst on November 08, 2013, 07:20:08 PM
While the server seed exists. Selective hashes can still be done, it's so trivial right now.

I should probably write a proof of concept script that shows this in action.

4th seed ?  ::)
The server seed needs to get removed. Do it like coinroll.it. Increment a nonce, and use the server secret. That much ELIMINATES the problem. The owner can still predict what you will roll, but cannot manipulate it.

you know this, and that's how you can reverse and trick them LOL!!!  ;)
I have no idea what you just said.

you push and bait them with a 2 > 3 digit pattern then bump to 5+ digits =) haaa


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Remember remember the 5th of November on November 08, 2013, 07:35:21 PM
Yes, it is fair. You can read Bitcoin Reviewer's post on provably fair bitcoin (http://bitcoinreviewer.com/provably-fair/) to see how the system actually works.

Just because you were unlucky does not mean that the game is unfair.

you are trippin' fool!~ now you chumps are really starting to piss me off this provably fair nonsense ~ its done! You look very very stupid and scammy using this term in my honest opinion! SPAM YOUR BS ELSEWHERE!!  8)


THE LAW IN NEVADA REQUIRES A RNG  FOR A REASON!!!

About the Author?LMAO= WHAT IS YOUR NAME?  ::)

Results from a random number generator can be manipulated easily. Provably fair results cannot.
Just posting this link again http://v20.nl/primedice/.

While the "client seed" is no more, and has been replaced by a nonce, it's again trivial to predict it, 1,2,3,4 etc so the website above is still valid.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: blo8i on November 08, 2013, 07:50:07 PM
i have had a losing streak on 20 twice lol, it´s easy to see or spot some long ass losing streaks, but i have also had some good winning streaks.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Dabs on November 12, 2013, 08:33:18 AM
That is vlees site. It's not valid because you can change the client seed any time.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: haightst on November 12, 2013, 11:51:46 AM
That is vlees site. It's not valid because you can change the client seed any time.

to win at these sites you have to forget about that seed nonsense and realize you are dealing with anti-martingaling script!(~or the manager at the console)  ;) e-z


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Namworld on December 05, 2013, 07:41:10 AM
Primedice still has not changed to nonce betting. Been quite a bit of time already since the change was claimed "coming". Doing similar to what bit777 did, claims change was coming for provably fair but instead just increased marketing and left his games NOT provably fair at all.

To be fair it's completely provably fair, people just have to change their client seed.

It's a bit like Peerbet's instant & non instant games. If people trust PrimeDice, don't bother changing the client seed, if they do, change it.

Primedice IS provably fair, just not as easily provably fair as it could be.

Yes, but Just-Dice and Coinroll both have a method where changing client seed is not required for each bet and it works. Would make PrimeDice better to just remove the server seed and predisclose the secret's hash. That way they can't tempers roll by giving whatever server seed they want for each roll. They theoretically can get any result they want currently if you don't change server seed on each roll.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: uoyeparannog on December 05, 2013, 10:34:43 PM
"Default" client seed should be pre-generated by JavaScript after each roll, not by PHP like right now. When it's generated by JS on browser's side, we know that they don't manipulate it. Anyone can check what fills the form in that case.
Why PD doesn't use JS to pre-generate client seed? It's good idea, and not new. Simple to implement, provides a lot of trust and things - but was ignored. Why? Maybe due to lazy-ass developer, or maybe some system to "control" earnings of users who doesn't change client seed really exists. Anyway, if it exists, it can't work with built in beting bot (btw martingale is straight road to losing money so no cheating needed here as most users uses it as mini martingale bot).

Stunna is nice guy on public - so much love, so much understanding, so much problems solved, but business is business. I don't tell that 'control system' exists or no - it's very hard to determine and anyone who is 100% sure without access to source code is idiot - but I can tell that I'm 35-45% sure it's here. Because why not? Fair play? Bitch please, what the eyes doesn't see...


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Jcw188 on December 05, 2013, 10:55:01 PM
I'm sure this is elementary to most of you, but how do I change my client seed?  is this something an average person can do?  thanks


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: uoyeparannog on December 05, 2013, 10:57:55 PM
Click "provably fair" button at bottom left and then click client seed.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Namworld on December 06, 2013, 12:00:58 AM
yes, client side generation on each roll would also do the trick, although one would need to audit the script and check the version they are served each time they open PrimeDice.

It is much better to predisclose a hash of the secret seed and then let the client set its own client seed. That way the casino can't temper rolls as they can't change secret and neither the client can because they don't know the secret but they'll know if it was changed afterward. It makes things easy to audit and doesn't require a change of client seed every bet.

That dynamic server seed PrimeDice adds on each roll has no business being there. That seeds hash to the correct roll does not make a game provably fair. The order seeds are generated does. If one party can know/expect to know all seeds in a roll and provide one dynamically on each roll, they can temper with results.

Unless the user changes the client seed before each roll, it's not provably fair. The roll verification doesn't mean anything.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: uoyeparannog on December 06, 2013, 12:12:33 AM
Anyone with minimum knowledge can check JS. There's propably a lot of guys who know JS. They can confirm fairness of generation system and provide proofs and "how-to-check-on-your-own" guide. As it's client side, any changes in JS will be noticed too.

Quote
It is much better to predisclose a hash of the secret seed and then let the client set its own client seed.
- As secret seed is the same for each player, changing it on the fly is very bad idea - so not valid method for scam. We talk about manipulating client seed.
- Client currently can set his own client seed - but that feature isn't very highlighted. You have to click some shittly button that looks like "just image". Defaultly, client seed changing form is hidden (+ PHP-generated default client seed - did I mention my 35-45% bet for 'system'?).


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: uoyeparannog on December 06, 2013, 05:00:53 AM
Small, additional note to my previous messages:

Let's assume that You decided to change Your fancy client seed to this:

mycoolclientseed

Good, now we have 100% provably fair shit!
But.

After setting initial client seed (Your own or random one choosen by sever or scammy one or whatever), Your first bet's client seed will look like:

mycoolclientseed

and after, in each bet - no matter if You use built in bot or no - it will look like this

mycoolclientseed-0001
mycoolclientseed-0002
mycoolclientseed-0003
mycoolclientseed-0004
mycoolclientseed-0005

etc.

Let's take a look at process of choosing server seed after each bet:

When You bet, You send POST req to https://primedice.com/api/bet.php. In answer, You'll get json-like structure that will be used by JavaScripts on site to show You results of Your action. Here's example:

Code:
{"username":"uoyeparannog","roll":"13.37","game":"<49.50","type":0,"bet":"1.00000000","result":"0","bet_id":"666","time":"01:23","elapsed":"01:23","multiplier":"2.00000","winnings":"0.00000000","balance":"0.00000000","client_seed":"mycoolclientseed-0002","server_seed":"blahblah","next_server_seed":"somuchfair"}

Let's assume for a while that Stunna is incarnation of Satan and wants to steal some of Your bitcoins - or just give a little boost to his profit.

Magic Control System (I'll call it MCS later) may work on many conditions - for example it may "want" to keep 1 BTC profit daily, or to break any good martingale session, or anything. Let's assume simplest example - martingale breaker. Note that martingale is shit, so You don't even need MCS to get some money.

So I play martingale.
Beting 1 BTC - won. Cool.
Beting another 1 BTC - lost. Damn.
Beting 2 BTC - won. Yeah.
Beting 1 BTC - won. Good.
Beting 1 BTC - won. Perfect.

In this moment I have 4 BTC profit. Let's say that MCS doesn't like it.
It noticed already that I play martingale. It knows that I play on ""type":0" ("low"). I'm lazy, so I just keep clicking buttons or use built-in bot. It may know that I'll use "low" bet next time, just because I do it often.

Now, my last client_seed was mycoolclientseed-0015. It's 15th in row. Bot will know that most likely next client_seed will be mycoolclientseed-0016.

Now, note that server_seed is choosen by server after each bet:

Code:
next_server_seed":"somuchfair"

Using this feature, server may decide about result of roll. So if it'll notice that I use martingale and type:0 it can lead me to big loss without any damn problem.

Ok, again, to control user's game we have to:

1. Know what client seed he will use.
2. Know what game type (high or low) he will use.
3. Know what he'll bet. (optionally)

And now quick take-a-look at PD:

1. We can predict user's client seed, because of [seed]-0001, [seed]-0002 etc. structure. To avoid it, client have to change his client seed after each roll. Ask Yourself a queston: who will change his client seed after each roll? It is easy for normal user? No. It's boring and unconfortable. Only well-scripted players who can write (or find and use) bots and auto-client-seed-changers will do it. It's rare case so we can forget it.
2. Most users will not randomly click "high/low" switch before each bet. Many high rollers does it, but still - it's easier to click one button, especially when You play two or six hours.
3. Most players uses martingale-like systems, flat rate or "near-flat-rate". If someone started to bet 0.120, 0.150, 0.100, 0.09, he'll propably not suddenly bet 0.00000001. He'll bet around that 0.1 - more or less, but near.

It's perfect environment for our magic system, isn't it? Want more? Here it is!

TADA! BUILT IN BOT!
Cool feature, I like it, but when You'll run it:

1. Client seed will be 100000000% predictable.
2. Bet amount will be 1000% predictable.
3. Hi/Low factor - fixed.

Money making machine.

I'm not telling You that Stunna does it. I like this guy, but if You'll ask me - I'll tell that I'm sure for 35-45% that such system exists here. Why?

1. Perfect environment. Everything would just work like a charm. As PrimeDice admin You have near 100% control - You decide how much and when You'll earn. You're 100% sure about Your earnings. You can even set some absurdal house edge like 0.5% to get more players and still get profit like on 10% edge or more. Even if 10% of players haves bots to auto-change client seeds and doesn't use bult in bot, 90% of losers will still work for You and that 10% doesn't really matter - let them play.
2. Undetectable. What do You want? Everything is provalby fair. You can change Your client seed whenever You want. 120 loses in row? Guy it's gamling - it's possible (of course it is, btw). Peoples can only troll around forum telling shit and pissing off forum members - they have no technical knowledge and will look like idiots, and doesn't even know how provably fair works, noone will take care - better! We'll have group of fans! "Yeah, fuck You troll, PD is provably fair and You're idiot - I feel good, because I feel smart and I know that PD is good".
3. Moneys. Who doesn't need it? More money is better in most cases.
4. You're not marked as scammer! Better! You're trusted owner of 100% provably fair casino. Good amount of clients, good trust, good gamblers, high rollers and shit.
5. Such system may do anything You want. 1 BTC profit daily? Ok. Maybe 3 BTC daily? Ok, why not. Break martingale session if client's balance is above 10 BTC and his base bet is 0.5 BTC if today's casino profit is lower than 2 BTC? Sure, why not. Find high roller, let him make (X * 2 + 1) BTC profit where X = initial deposit, generate loss streak when he'll start martingale with base bet (0.1 * X) and it's monday? Ok. It's just two, three lines in PHP.

It's just perfect!

Again, I'm not telling that Stunna does it. I just want to tell that:
a) It's 100% possible.
b) It's even TOO easy on PrimeDice - entire PD looks like just based on this conception.
c) It's really good idea if You're dice game owner.

Also note that even if such system exists, You can still play here and earn something - if system exists, it should aim at "general good" of house, not just to piss off single players - what I meant, we want to get 1 BTC profit daily, but we don't want to steal each penny from user's deposits - we'll steal it when we'll need it. They still have to win to keep playing - it's even good idea to force several big wins with anything above planned daily profit, or even code some "epic luck" scheme to keep talking about big wins on PD's thread from time to time...

Need example? For several bitcoins (just to pay my time) I can create clone of PD with all features and based on the same provably fair system - but with some nice addon. Programmable Magic Control System with badass admin panel where You can set conditions, daily profit and triggers. I'm not wasting words - I really can do it and it will work. Damn, You can even use it if You'll find some players - I don't care. Business is business.

Say good bye to perfect world full of good peoples. What the eyes doesn't see...


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Jcw188 on December 06, 2013, 09:28:08 PM
is it suggested to change the client seed every roll?  and the number that looks like xxxxxxx-xxxx, which number should I be changing, both of them or just the number on the left?


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Namworld on December 06, 2013, 09:59:42 PM
is it suggested to change the client seed every roll?  and the number that looks like xxxxxxx-xxxx, which number should I be changing, both of them or just the number on the left?

Any change to the client seed will do the trick. Either in part or in whole. They know what's your next client seed if you don't change it. They know the secret seed. They provide the third server seed and can calculate what their provided server seed will roll with your known client seed and their secret seed. Thus they can try multiple server seeds and give one which gives the roll they want. They can't do this if you changed the client seed before the roll as the client seed will then not be the one the expected and calculated with.

Depends on if you trust them or not. If client seed is not changed before every roll, the "provably fair" check on the seeds doesn't mean anything. I'd recommend changing it before every roll until they update their seed system as it is the only way for rolls to be actually provably fair as it is right now.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Dabs on December 07, 2013, 02:28:29 AM
@uoyeparannog, how much is your dice site? I want to make one for an alt-coin. But we'll make it fair of course.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Kyraishi on December 07, 2013, 09:37:59 AM
a stupid question, can gambling website be playable offline?


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Dabs on December 07, 2013, 02:17:34 PM
Nope.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Gaukler on December 20, 2013, 11:57:00 PM
removed.....


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: FanEagle on December 21, 2013, 10:05:41 AM
a stupid question, can gambling website be playable offline?
sure thing! You must just own your entire gambling site(php, server etc) on your computer, and then you play it until you are bored. But you will probably earn what you put on your wallet(because it will take your money from your wallet to pay your winning, so it's a loop)
You can't win more than what you have and you can't make your money grow.

By the way, back to the topic.
I mostly do a tricky trick. Well it's not a trick, but a prove of luck.
Let's say I have 100K satoshi and wanna find more than 99.50 as a roll.
What the server will do?
I set my own client, and let the bot run 500 satoshi per hit. and just for pure luck for who knows the 199 bet is a winning one. and so I win my 100K back. Or better. at number 72 and 199 I get over 99.50, and I have a profit of 200K.
I do the same, Change the client seed, add some pepper and decide to bet 2K for bet, and at the 3rd I win big.
I took examples from my own experience on the website.That's why I'm talking.
And my example doesn't even involve martingaling.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Gaukler on December 21, 2013, 07:48:00 PM
you need a satoschi management system...

don't play the martignale or whatever the name is. that will never work.

but there are other system and that works fine for me...

I start play every time with 0.00001000

And i have 0.005 as Balance

0.005 Balance
0.00001 Play

I already got 228 x 0.00001 and never loose my Balance


Is there a difference if i play with 0.5 Balance and 0.001 ?? any experience ?

update New status 305 x 0.00001


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: MGK- on December 21, 2013, 10:44:59 PM
IS PrimeDice down?


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Gaukler on December 22, 2013, 09:43:16 PM
new update

Profit= 415 x 0.00001 = 0.00415

The max unbalance between wind and lose was = 65 (lose) / 35 (win)

did anyone see a bigger unbalance ???



(anyway, for my system no problem)


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Stunna on December 22, 2013, 10:27:43 PM
PrimeDice is provably fair currently and all bets can be verified. This process however is not as convenient as it could be, the developer of pd2 didn't quite understand what I meant when I asked him to add in nonces and thus the system somewhat relies on users setting a client seed. The majority of the posts here are plain fud and made by people with little understanding of cryptography so I never paid much attention to them, but some users brought some strong points to my attention.

Now that we're once again working on big updates for the site, we will be issuing a new provably fair system in PD3 which will be coming out in the next few weeks. This system will most likely be based off JD's, I'll also be running an open beta of the new site so anyone will have the opportunity to scrutinize this system and any other security aspects of the site prior to launch.  

Also, I'd like to offer a bounty to anyone that helps us develop a more convenient/user friendly provably fair system. I believe provably fair is heavily flawed at the moment as most users have great difficulty calculating their rolls and rely on third party tools to do so, or in most cases don't calculate them at all. I'd like to be more transparent with the community, and hopefully these changes and the pd3 open beta will be a step towards that.

Regards,

Stunna


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: sampathneo on December 23, 2013, 01:47:49 AM
 8)



Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Gaukler on December 23, 2013, 08:38:43 PM
update...

The system is against the player.. 100%..

i had a unbalance between win/lose about 15% Win / 85% lose  over 30 minutes...

you can calculate it -> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standardabweichung


So for me its done... never ever agin..


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: organofcorti on December 24, 2013, 08:22:15 AM
update...

The system is against the player.. 100%..

i had a unbalance between win/lose about 15% Win / 85% lose  over 30 minutes...

you can calculate it -> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standardabweichung


So for me its done... never ever agin..

Winnings won't be normally distributed, but binomially distributed. How many bets did you make, and at what percentage to win each bet was made?



Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Gaukler on December 24, 2013, 09:22:36 PM
update...

The system is against the player.. 100%..

i had a unbalance between win/lose about 15% Win / 85% lose  over 30 minutes...

you can calculate it -> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standardabweichung


So for me its done... never ever agin..

Winnings won't be normally distributed, but binomially distributed. How many bets did you make, and at what percentage to win each bet was made?



if you calculate it with my bet (850 bet), then you can be sure, that is not fair system..

let me explain a little bit more ..

example of win / lose

my math was wrong, i will post tomorrow


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Acidyo on December 25, 2013, 12:46:05 AM
update...

The system is against the player.. 100%..

i had a unbalance between win/lose about 15% Win / 85% lose  over 30 minutes...

you can calculate it -> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standardabweichung


So for me its done... never ever agin..

Winnings won't be normally distributed, but binomially distributed. How many bets did you make, and at what percentage to win each bet was made?



if you calculate it with my bet (850 bet), then you can be sure, that is not fair system..

let me explain a little bit more ..

example of win / lose

+---+--+-----++---+----+----++----- 25 lose /  9 win  =  73.5% lose to 16.5% win

so after 850xbet, i got a 85% lose / 15% win  or in other words 722 lose to 118 win   

so do you think that is normal ?? In my point of view, that is not normal... so game is against player.

What was your win chance %?

I've had 19 losses in a row on autobets and not complained. I just now started reading this thread and oh my god are my eyes bleeding from all the whines and accusations.

Even if you are playing on 50% win chance, it's a 50% chance to lose on every roll, doesn't mean you HAVE to win the next one just cause you lost 5 in a row. It's still a 50% chance to lose.
Some people need to start using their heads. In dice games you either go big from the start and quit once you win, or lose it all and leave. With time the system (the 1% house cut) will bust you eventually.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Stunna on December 25, 2013, 12:52:10 AM
if you calculate it with my bet (850 bet), then you can be sure, that is not fair system..

let me explain a little bit more ..

example of win / lose

+---+--+-----++---+----+----++----- 25 lose /  9 win  =  73.5% lose to 16.5% win

so after 850xbet, i got a 85% lose / 15% win  or in other words 722 lose to 118 win   

so do you think that is normal ?? In my point of view, that is not normal... so game is against player.

Mind sharing your username?


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Gaukler on December 25, 2013, 01:21:25 PM
sorry about my english....

anyway
Lets talk about the dices again.

First:
- I don't say, that the developer of dices had programed something against the player.
- And i don't want my btc back.. it was a small amount just to test. (0,025BTC)

Since 10 years, i play roulette in online casinos.
There is also a similar bet you can do on red/black and house edge (the Zero) like dices

What i also can tell you, there are good and bad "random generators".

So i did some test regarding the "standard deviation" on dices. And the result is,
that this random generator is a bad random generator. But that is just my opinion !!!

Bad random generator = the standard deviation is greater thus normal.

Conclusion:
So you can play dices and you can win, if the dices running on your side. And then you
can win more than normal. (More than a good random generator will generate) But if the dices are not
on your side, then you can also loose more than normal.

I hope, that will explain my last post's


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: organofcorti on December 29, 2013, 12:36:43 PM
sorry about my english....

anyway
Lets talk about the dices again.

First:
- I don't say, that the developer of dices had programed something against the player.
- And i don't want my btc back.. it was a small amount just to test. (0,025BTC)

Since 10 years, i play roulette in online casinos.
There is also a similar bet you can do on red/black and house edge (the Zero) like dices

What i also can tell you, there are good and bad "random generators".

So i did some test regarding the "standard deviation" on dices. And the result is,
that this random generator is a bad random generator. But that is just my opinion !!!

Bad random generator = the standard deviation is greater thus normal.

Conclusion:
So you can play dices and you can win, if the dices running on your side. And then you
can win more than normal. (More than a good random generator will generate) But if the dices are not
on your side, then you can also loose more than normal.

I hope, that will explain my last post's

I understand what you mean, I just can't tell if you're right. This is not a subject about which an opinion means much. If you post a history of the "chance to win" for your bets (eg 30% to 50% or 75%) and how many bets you made, I can tell you how likely your results were.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Dabs on December 29, 2013, 01:47:12 PM
And if any of the "dices" random generators are bad, then you can just flip it and make it good for the player. Just bet the other way and you will have the "dices" on your side.

So instead of losing more than normal, you should be winning more than normal.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Gaukler on December 29, 2013, 05:10:57 PM
And if any of the "dices" random generators are bad, then you can just flip it and make it good for the player. Just bet the other way and you will have the "dices" on your side.

So instead of losing more than normal, you should be winning more than normal.

Did you read my conclusion ? 

Conclusion:
So you can play dices and you can win, if the dices running on your side. And then you
can win more than normal. (More than a good random generator will generate) But if the dices are not
on your side, then you can also loose more than normal.


I did around 4000 bet i think... for me enough


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: AirFlame on January 18, 2014, 12:32:42 PM
Ok this game is so scam i had 12 and then 14 looses same day in a row ! If You flip the coin you will have more chance to win than playing this shitty game. If i have no luck then I should die a long time ago on sidewalk crushed by the plane falling from the sky... or driving a car on highway and smashed by the train that have derailed and moved to the highway.

Proof picturer nr1:
http://i42.tinypic.com/24mvxv5.jpg


Proof picturer nr2:
http://i41.tinypic.com/j8i6pf.jpg


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: AirFlame on January 18, 2014, 12:51:37 PM
Ok this game is so scam i had 12 and then 14 looses same day in a row ! If You flip the coin you will have more chance to win than playing this shitty game. If i have no luck then I should die a long time ago on sidewalk crushed by the plane falling from the sky... or driving a car on highway and smashed by the train that have derailed and moved to the highway.

Proof picturer nr1:
https://bitcointalk.org/24mvxv5.jpg

Proof picturer nr2:
https://bitcointalk.org/j8i6pf.jpg

Show picture with 20 loses in a row at 90%, then speak :)

Please... flip the coin in the air 12-14 times and check if You get 12-14 times tails


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: AirFlame on January 18, 2014, 01:11:53 PM
flip the coin 20000 times and come back.
12,14,22,25 is normal with 49.5%

Spin your doge 20000 times and come back..


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: murraypaul on January 20, 2014, 11:20:18 AM
If You flip the coin you will have more chance to win than playing this shitty game.

Yes, you will, because this game has a house edge.
That shouldn't be a surprise.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: b!z on January 20, 2014, 11:22:30 AM
Ok this game is so scam i had 12 and then 14 looses same day in a row ! If You flip the coin you will have more chance to win than playing this shitty game. If i have no luck then I should die a long time ago on sidewalk crushed by the plane falling from the sky... or driving a car on highway and smashed by the train that have derailed and moved to the highway.

Proof picturer nr1:
http://i42.tinypic.com/24mvxv5.jpg

Proof picturer nr2:
http://i41.tinypic.com/j8i6pf.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variance


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: murraypaul on January 20, 2014, 11:24:58 AM
flip the coin 20000 times and come back.
12,14,22,25 is normal with 49.5%

Spin your doge 20000 times and come back..

According to your screenshots, you've made over 378 million bets.
With that many bets, losing 14 in a row at some point isn't surprising.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: organofcorti on January 20, 2014, 12:04:06 PM
flip the coin 20000 times and come back.
12,14,22,25 is normal with 49.5%

Spin your doge 20000 times and come back..

According to your screenshots, you've made over 378 million bets.
With that many bets, losing 14 in a row at some point isn't surprising.


No, that's the total number of bets at the site. Your point stands though.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Stunna on January 23, 2014, 02:37:11 AM
flip the coin 20000 times and come back.
12,14,22,25 is normal with 49.5%

Spin your doge 20000 times and come back..

According to your screenshots, you've made over 378 million bets.
With that many bets, losing 14 in a row at some point isn't surprising.


Nope, that's just the Bet ID.

He made 38,317 bets though before busting which makes this highly likely.

@Airflame: I'm sorry you lost your .22 coins but such is the risk of gambling and when you are making that many rolls the likelihood of that sort of bust is quite substantial. Feel free to direct any and all blame at me regardless of the math.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: zolace on January 23, 2014, 11:50:18 AM
flip the coin 20000 times and come back.
12,14,22,25 is normal with 49.5%

Spin your doge 20000 times and come back..

According to your screenshots, you've made over 378 million bets.
With that many bets, losing 14 in a row at some point isn't surprising.


Nope, that's just the Bet ID.

He made 38,317 bets though before busting which makes this highly likely.

@Airflame: I'm sorry you lost your .22 coins but such is the risk of gambling and when you are making that many rolls the likelihood of that sort of bust is quite substantial. Feel free to direct any and all blame at me regardless of the math.




sounds fair if thet guy bet that much on the site, possible chances to happen are around those odds.  I read it some where that we bet so fast that we dont realize how many bets we put in, that we will bust before we will ever know it. Thats how fast the betting system works.  So dude if you had bet that much is possible to get a loss streak of 12.



Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: quone17 on January 23, 2014, 03:10:33 PM
Not sure what the issue is...I've had loss streaks of 14, 15, 16 even.  It's just math, you can check around the web and find that it's possible/probable given enough rolls.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: MoneyGod on January 23, 2014, 05:23:59 PM
some time when you are playing too much you have to face streak like this I also have same problem on many sites and never think about fair policy of the site its luck  ;)


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: r4vani on April 06, 2014, 05:14:57 PM
  :|

http://s12.postimg.org/6evylqvd9/sssss.png

gfys primedice


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: r4vani on April 06, 2014, 05:55:37 PM
 agin :|

http://s23.postimg.org/sfyb8tp8r/xxx.png


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: a1choi on April 06, 2014, 06:21:17 PM

there was a 0.0069% chance of that happening.  (0.604)^19 = 0.000069  damn..


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: r4vani on April 06, 2014, 08:06:31 PM

there was a 0.0069% chance of that happening.  (0.604)^19 = 0.000069  damn..

It is not completely planned
I have 3 different Agant consecutive wins after increasing inventory and more and has it happened


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: bumm on April 06, 2014, 08:22:47 PM
I deposited 0.02 BTC and immediately failed - lost 5 times 0.001-0.002-0.004-0.008-0.005 !!
Then I deposited 0.02 BTC again and lost 0.001-0.002-0.004-0.008 again!! But I doubled remaining 0.005 BTC and managed slowly to go to 0.044 BTC, after what withdrew)


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: r4vani on April 06, 2014, 09:05:26 PM


50 = 0.00050000
100
200
400
800
1600
3200
6400
12800
25600
51200
102400
204800
409600
819200
1638400
3276800
6553600
13107200
26214400

=20 x losse

52428750 + 000 = 524.28750000

600 btc need for bet 0.00050000 and no losse


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Dabs on April 07, 2014, 03:04:46 AM
And if any of the "dices" random generators are bad, then you can just flip it and make it good for the player. Just bet the other way and you will have the "dices" on your side.

So instead of losing more than normal, you should be winning more than normal.

Did you read my conclusion ? 

Conclusion:
So you can play dices and you can win, if the dices running on your side. And then you
can win more than normal. (More than a good random generator will generate) But if the dices are not
on your side, then you can also loose more than normal.


I did around 4000 bet i think... for me enough

Sorry for the really late reply, but my point still stands. Just bet the other way. Then instead of losing more than normal, you would win more than normal.

The dices is never on anyones side, but you just have to pick the side the dices are on. How? I don't know, if I did, I would be winning all the time huh.

My answer would be the same towards your conclusion. As long as your conclusion says the site is not fair, or the dices are on the other side, one simply has to go to that other side.

If the dices are fair, or close to 50%, then it does not matter which side you are on, you will win half the time and lose half the time.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: a1choi on April 07, 2014, 04:28:14 AM


50 = 0.00050000
100
200
400
800
1600
3200
6400
12800
25600
51200
102400
204800
409600
819200
1638400
3276800
6553600
13107200
26214400

=20 x losse

52428750 + 000 = 524.28750000

600 btc need for bet 0.00050000 and no losse

and that is the risk of martingale.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Giftcoins on April 30, 2014, 09:18:00 PM
PD can easily be rigged and this is a fact

If it's rigged only Stunna knows and no one can prove anything


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: zeeshanblc on April 30, 2014, 09:37:22 PM
I can't decide if this is funny or sad, please help me...

PD Stunna accusing others for not being provably fair while running not provably fair site and advertising on his thread banner that PD is provably fair while it's not





Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Dabs on April 30, 2014, 10:10:20 PM
Do you even understand what Provably Fair means?


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: enno on April 30, 2014, 11:50:24 PM
Didn't read the whole thread but just played a bit...

When it comes to automated betting the user has no chance to change the client seed on every roll but PD has indeed the possibility to generate a server seed to his hown favour.

Example:

- PD knows the next roll will have the old client seed + incremented number. like if it was "abcdef-0001" it will be "abcdef-0002" for the next roll.
- PD knows the user is playing < 49.5 thus for the user to lose it needs a number > 49.5 and all PD needs to do is generating a server seed which will result in a number > 49.5 (actually I don't know if the server seed is generated transparently on the client side, which would prove my arguments invalid or - as the name suggests itself - on the server side)
- Generating a favourable number is trivial when you know the daily secret plus the client seed and can change the server seed at your discretion:

Code:
$seed  = 'daily secret';
$nextclient = 'abcdef-0002';

do {
   $server = rand(0,999999999);
   $hash = hash('sha512', $seed . $server . $nextclient);
   $value = substr($hash, 0, 8);
   $dice = round(hexdec($value)/42949672.95,2);
} while ($dice < 49.5);

echo 'Next server seed should be ' . $server . ' and will result in number ' . $dice;


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: cwil on May 01, 2014, 12:20:43 AM
Users can change the client seed at will on PD.

Code:
$.getScript('//crypto-js.googlecode.com/svn/tags/3.1.2/build/rollups/sha512.js');

var betPayload = {
    bet: 0,
    game: 49.5,
    type: 0,
    client_seed: 0,
    token: 'xxx'
};

var count = 0;

var bot_bet = function(max_bets) {
  if(++count > max_bets) return;
  betPayload.client_seed = CryptoJS.SHA512(Math.random().toString()).toString();
  $.post(
    '/api/bet.php',
    betPayload,
    function(data) {
      data = JSON.parse(data);
      console.log(data);
      //do some bet logic
      setTimeout(bot_bet(max_bets), 500);
    }
  );
}


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Stunna on May 01, 2014, 12:33:44 AM
I stated what I wanted to say here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=590594.msg6481848#msg6481848

LN and myself are discussing via PM how we can remedy our argument as well. In summary our current system is provably fair but not ideal and will be improved upon with user feedback in PD3, but it is very easy to make it 100% provably fair by changing your client seed. The main thing I think should be pushed for is an open source project where "provably fair" is created, right now any website can claim to be provably fair with any sort of implementation. Ideally what will happen is only websites that run a specific version of provable fairness will be considered provably fair. The difficulty is creating such a system on an off-chain site that does not inconvenience the user (force them to change a seed frequently).

-Stunna




Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Dabs on May 01, 2014, 03:05:09 AM
Stunna, your competitors (specifically JD and CR) don't get the same accusations. They are Provably Fair as far as players are concerned. I believe you can just simply use the same system and dooglus already gave open permission to copy his method.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Prolifik on May 01, 2014, 03:18:19 AM
Being an unregulated gambling site they can fix the odds as much as they want.

Some modified martingale systems can push the odds in your favor for awhile but you will eventually lose.

They have some type of bot to detect a standard martingale. <:-| *tinfoilhat

All in all, don't go to primedice with more than you're willing to lose.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Stunna on May 01, 2014, 03:36:38 AM
Stunna, your competitors (specifically JD and CR) don't get the same accusations. They are Provably Fair as far as players are concerned. I believe you can just simply use the same system and dooglus already gave open permission to copy his method.

This was the plan for the new site, there are still vulnerabilities with that method from what I can tell (please correct me if I'm wrong). I might not have an expert grasp on provably fair but couldn't a site using a system like JD's or CR's manipulate the sha 256 server seed hash to result in a loss streak for the player?

ex. A server seed hash could be placed that results in a loss streak or a loss given the site knows your client seed.

If the user didn't change their client seed frequently, wouldn't this be a possibility? If so what is the definitive advantage to that system and is there a way to improve on this? Our main motivation for changing our system will be instant verifiable results and ability to check them by running a terminal command but is there an advantage for the user in terms of fairness?


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Dabs on May 01, 2014, 04:39:03 AM
ex. A server seed hash could be placed that results in a loss streak or a loss given the site knows your client seed.

Yes, that is true, but only if the server is allowed to generate their server side after knowing what the client seed is.

In both cases:

The server seed is created before the player can give their client seed. The server seed is hashed and shown to the player, so the player can verify at any time after a roll if it was fair or not. The player can verify that the server seed has not changed since it was created.

The server does not know the client seed until after it has created the server seed. The server therefor has no opportunity to compute or calculate a forced loss. It will simply calculate, whether that results in a loss or a win, fairly.

The order is important. Server creates server seed. Then player is allowed to create client seed or the player's deposit determines the client seed.

If the player creates the client seed first, then the server has an opportunity to attempt to manipulate future rolls.

If the seeds remain unchanged and the only variable left is predictable, such as an incrementing nonce, then both server and player can not cheat. The server can't change the outcome, the player does not know for sure, therefore the player can bet or gamble fairly.

If you need details, we can discuss over PM, but I think I already told you some time ago, I'll have to check.

(And oh, I still want to make a provably fair poker game, so ... PrimePoker looks good huh.)


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: a1choi on May 01, 2014, 04:44:39 AM

If the seeds remain unchanged and the only variable left is predictable, such as an incrementing nonce, then both server and player can not cheat. The server can't change the outcome, the player does not know for sure, therefore the player can bet or gamble fairly.


ah thanks dabs for saying this! i've been failing to clearly understand this and now it just seems trivial! why didn't i get it before =D


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Dabs on May 01, 2014, 06:11:32 AM
You don't really get it until you do. And when you do, you wonder why you never got it until then.

Whoever takes my concept of provably fair card games (poker, blackjack, etc) is going to make a killing. I just wish I had my own dev or team and the capital to make one myself.

I've also suggested to doog before, since I liked his version or implementation, to include a "dice on crack" version, where one can auto-bet 10k times and the whole sequence is pre-programmed (martingale or whatever) and the whole sequence is still provably fair from start to finish, based on the player's rules.

I'd certainly want to throw a bitcoin into gambling 10k rolls and finding out the result in 1 second.

I'm left to being a consultant or escrow and someone else will make all the money. :)


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: cwil on May 01, 2014, 08:52:28 AM
There's nothing wrong with PD's current implementation of a provably fair system.  The only criticism I see in this thread is that people don't use the system in any meaningful way and that somehow means PD is cheating.  If I could offer some criticism for off-chain provably fair systems in general, the use of a daily secret is unnecessary and counterproductive.  Satoshidice dice and similar games have an obvious need for a daily secret, and it makes sense in that context.  Off-chain games, however, can provide a hash of the next bit of data they intend to use to produce the next outcome.  An off-chain game with a provably fair system that relies on a daily secret makes it impossible to verify bets at run time for no good reason at all.  Stunna, unless you can come up with a good reason why a daily secret is better than random data generated per roll, I'd suggest you stay away from the implementation mistakes of your competitors.  Real time verification is a nice feature for people like me who are interested in automation.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: jambola2 on May 31, 2014, 08:43:51 AM
There's nothing wrong with PD's current implementation of a provably fair system.  The only criticism I see in this thread is that people don't use the system in any meaningful way and that somehow means PD is cheating.  If I could offer some criticism for off-chain provably fair systems in general, the use of a daily secret is unnecessary and counterproductive.  Satoshidice dice and similar games have an obvious need for a daily secret, and it makes sense in that context.  Off-chain games, however, can provide a hash of the next bit of data they intend to use to produce the next outcome.  An off-chain game with a provably fair system that relies on a daily secret makes it impossible to verify bets at run time for no good reason at all.  Stunna, unless you can come up with a good reason why a daily secret is better than random data generated per roll, I'd suggest you stay away from the implementation mistakes of your competitors.  Real time verification is a nice feature for people like me who are interested in automation.

Exactly.

All this entire accusation says is that PD is not fair if you don't change your seed. Well , duh.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: coincolonel on June 02, 2014, 10:31:30 AM
There's nothing wrong with PD's current implementation of a provably fair system.  The only criticism I see in this thread is that people don't use the system in any meaningful way and that somehow means PD is cheating.  If I could offer some criticism for off-chain provably fair systems in general, the use of a daily secret is unnecessary and counterproductive.  Satoshidice dice and similar games have an obvious need for a daily secret, and it makes sense in that context.  Off-chain games, however, can provide a hash of the next bit of data they intend to use to produce the next outcome.  An off-chain game with a provably fair system that relies on a daily secret makes it impossible to verify bets at run time for no good reason at all.  Stunna, unless you can come up with a good reason why a daily secret is better than random data generated per roll, I'd suggest you stay away from the implementation mistakes of your competitors.  Real time verification is a nice feature for people like me who are interested in automation.

Exactly.

All this entire accusation says is that PD is not fair if you don't change your seed. Well , duh.

I think it is not that easy to change the algorithm in ongoing system (please correct me if I'm wrong). I also believe if PD is trying to 'guess' your next move based on previous move, it can be a backfire to the site because player will be able to guess the site's move as well. The best move for PD should always be a random number, because even with this weakness, PD still does not know the bet amount. Hopefully I have correct understanding.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: CaMeRoNy on June 05, 2014, 09:26:16 AM
Agreed that site is scum
stay away all


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: SelbyTsang on June 05, 2014, 09:31:19 AM
Agreed that site is scum
stay away all

That doesn't sound right from someone with "Trust: -6: -1 / +1(1) Warning: Trade with extreme caution!" :)


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: dooglus on June 05, 2014, 10:15:01 AM
If I could offer some criticism for off-chain provably fair systems in general, the use of a daily secret is unnecessary and counterproductive.

It's like this:

PrimeDice: changes secret every roll - makes the user have to do much work to verify (too hot)
CoinRoll: changes secret once per day - makes the user wait too long to verify (too cold)
Just-Dice: changes secret when the user asks to change it (just right)

It's like Goldilocks up in here.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: a1choi on June 05, 2014, 10:29:00 AM
If I could offer some criticism for off-chain provably fair systems in general, the use of a daily secret is unnecessary and counterproductive.

It's like this:

PrimeDice: changes secret every roll - makes the user have to do much work to verify (too hot)
CoinRoll: changes secret once per day - makes the user wait too long to verify (too cold)
Just-Dice: changes secret when the user asks to change it (just right)

It's like Goldilocks up in here.

with a min of 10 rolls per secret!  :P   why is that? why do you limit it?  not that i mind.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: kuverty on June 05, 2014, 11:45:36 AM
This thread is simply stupid for the most part. Why post such accusations without anything to back it up? If these accusations are correct, it would not have been too difficult to actually gather some evidence that would show some statistically interesting bias. Of course it can be frustrating to lose money and if you have a 20-roll losing streak, it is very human to try and find a culprit elsewhere.

That is valid though, that the site could just choose when the user wins or not and a site operator would be tempted to manipulate the result if someone is about to win big (hundreds of BTC for example). I do not see any reason to believe PD is cheating now though but of course it should now be changed, for example to the Just-Dice system which works really well.

Anyway, especially after this thread, no new gaming sites that employ a system like this should be avoided until they correct this obviously bad practice. It is only a matter of time someone cheats big. Good work for putting these "provably fair" systems under scrutiny.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: dooglus on June 05, 2014, 03:23:59 PM
no new gaming sites that employ a system like this should be avoided until they correct this obviously bad practice

I would suggest exactly the opposite.

all new gaming sites that employ a system like this should be avoided until they correct this obviously bad practice


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Namworld on June 23, 2014, 12:55:31 PM
This isn't really an accusation that PrimeDice is cheating. Just that their system is a bit flawed. More that we can't know by default if results are fair unless one changes his own seed for every roll. It can be provably fair, but only in that specific circumstance. A provably fair system shouldn't have a cheating possibility under any scenario, regardless of if the site cheats or not.

PrimeDice: changes secret every roll - makes the user have to do much work to verify (too hot)
CoinRoll: changes secret once per day - makes the user wait too long to verify (too cold)
Just-Dice: changes secret when the user asks to change it (just right)

Dooglus, I don't think Coinroll is "too cold". Doesn't JD provides a default client seed too? Need to change client seed once, good to go forever. Much better.

Fixed daily secret for everyone seems good. It makes it pretty much impossible to cheat players under any circumstances. Most people don't need to verify and won't do it immediately after betting or won't do it at all. The daily secret cannot be be changed without altering all previous bets for that day. Finding a secret that match all bets for the day would simply be impossible. We also don't provide a default client seed, avoiding any possible claim we chose one with lucky numbers favorable to the house for the current day/server secret. We simply use the user's deposit tx ID. Put simply, Coinroll users don't need to do anything to be on the safe side and we don't have to provide a default secret.

The whole point is everyone don't need to even verify and often most people won't. So archived bets are provided (not simply one by one bet lookup on the website, downlaodble archives for easy checking with script). Pretty much anyone can just run a check on the archives and report anything suspicious. When people are playing, they want results instantly. Verifying bet timing isn't as important. If you want to check that, you can always check bets in batch later. Being able to verify them immediately wouldn't change their loss/win. No new information. Just not as time sensitive, unlike betting which needs to be instant, so Coinroll use that system. Just seems like a stronger provably fair system. We have yet to see any demand for instant verification.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: bastilar on June 23, 2014, 01:00:01 PM
House always has to have an advantage or they'd go out of business.

Odds are you will always get a "bad luck" streak of many losing rolls in a row. Mathematically it's possible so if you roll enough times, it can happen.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: CoinCollect on July 29, 2014, 02:57:09 PM
This site is scum.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Nagato4 on July 29, 2014, 03:00:26 PM
This site is scum.

Would you mind telling us a little bit details what happened?  ???


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: CoinCollect on July 29, 2014, 03:05:23 PM
This site is just scum, i have deposit money and bever recieved. contact stunna and he did not help.
fuck primcedice


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: unknow3nkid on July 29, 2014, 05:03:03 PM
Just dice is where its at, best site ever.
RIP :( ;(


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: galbros on July 29, 2014, 10:15:50 PM
This site is just scum, i have deposit money and bever recieved. contact stunna and he did not help.
fuck primcedice

First, this thread is about provably fair, not deposit complaints.

Second, your complaint would have a lot more validity if you posted some images of your messages sent to and received from Stunna.  Just like he did  here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=208986.msg8089148#msg8089148).  Which, interestingly, seems to be about your issue and him resolving it.

Finally, given how many users Primedice has I doubt they are screwing them out of deposits.  There is no need to do that, they win plenty plenty with their 1% edge.

Good Luck.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Ejaculation on July 29, 2014, 10:22:04 PM
This site is scum.

Why did you have to bump this thread :( -_-


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: sandykho47 on July 30, 2014, 09:34:23 AM
I think all dice gambling is same
last time i gamble with win chance 60%, lose 10x row

and if you roll with big bet, you usually los even with high chance win

that's why lot people open gamble site


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Shallow on July 30, 2014, 10:48:46 AM
I believe that Stunna has already fixed this, and made it so you can choose your client seed. I think the client seed is generated in the client with JS now.

Can anyone confirm? I am not a programmer and can't look myself.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: dooglus on July 30, 2014, 07:06:15 PM
I think all dice gambling is same
last time i gamble with win chance 60%, lose 10x row

and if you roll with big bet, you usually los even with high chance win

that's why lot people open gamble site

I think you're wrong.

Most dice sites are provably fair, which means you can check that the rolls are fairly generated.

You need to do a little work like verifying hashes, picking random seeds and such like, but if you are willing to do that you can be sure the site isn't cheating you.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: Soappa on July 31, 2014, 03:02:00 AM
I think all dice gambling is same
last time i gamble with win chance 60%, lose 10x row

and if you roll with big bet, you usually los even with high chance win

that's why lot people open gamble site

I think you're wrong.

Most dice sites are provably fair, which means you can check that the rolls are fairly generated.

You need to do a little work like verifying hashes, picking random seeds and such like, but if you are willing to do that you can be sure the site isn't cheating you.

Exactly.
But the problem is many gamblers don't really understand anything about SHA hashing and so they probably consider the "provably fair" just a gimmick.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair? Well, it isn't.
Post by: dooglus on July 31, 2014, 04:10:43 AM
But the problem is many gamblers don't really understand anything about SHA hashing and so they probably consider the "provably fair" just a gimmick.

That's true.

All I would say is if you're too lazy or too dumb to understand how provably fair gambling works, please don't make comments about it.

Leave that to the people who understand it.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: nyktalgia on September 24, 2014, 10:31:24 AM
PD is definitely  a scam.  It wouldn't exist if it wasn't.......  I know for a fact the owners track peoples IP address to see how much you made off them, then they manipulate your rolls.  The 'seed change' is just there to make it look nice.

Provably isn't even a god damn word, its made up bullshit.....


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: nyktalgia on September 24, 2014, 10:38:22 AM
Does anybody have any recommendations for a legit dice site? Im sick of losing money... lost 1 btc to this shit site and im not losing anymore..... ppl are asswads on there too and the admins mute me for calling somebody a pussy when I get constantly harassed?  People try to act like ur friend but are just dickheads tryin to make you lose money in the end........  I have a feeling PD is a close knit group of friends that just scams the fuck out of unsuspecting players.


ANyway... honest suggestions would be nice as I have some btc to make up now......  I'm not a retard but I can definately see PD builds you up and rips you down 10x harder.  Only ppl that stick around seem to be friends or low wagers.   Seen a few people with profit but they are probably affiliated with the site somehow......


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: Stars on September 24, 2014, 10:42:56 AM
Does anybody have any recommendations for a legit dice site? Im sick of losing money... lost 1 btc to this shit site and im not losing anymore..... ppl are asswads on there too and the admins mute me for calling somebody a pussy when I get constantly harassed?  People try to act like ur friend but are just dickheads tryin to make you lose money in the end........  I have a feeling PD is a close knit group of friends that just scams the fuck out of unsuspecting players.


ANyway... honest suggestions would be nice as I have some btc to make up now......  I'm not a retard but I can definately see PD builds you up and rips you down 10x harder.  Only ppl that stick around seem to be friends or low wagers.   Seen a few people with profit but they are probably affiliated with the site somehow......

I've bet on PD before and my experience has been fine there. I agree with you that people try to act like your friend, but that's only because they want you to tip them. You can also verify that you haven't been cheated. If you don't like PD then try PRCdice.eu and dice ninja but DN isn't very user-friendly.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: nandubatchu on September 29, 2014, 05:17:32 AM
I cannot provide any concrete proof, aside from this picture

http://i.imgur.com/En6GaaJ.png

and how this is not the only occurrence of this loss streak. A user MoFo on PD with an initial bet of less than 0.01 and doubling on each loss, he doubled his money all the way to over 5 bitcoins and lost that all on ~50/50 chance of a win which were around 10-15 losses.
So while this may just come from the randomness that hashes are, it can also be due to selective hashes on server-side.

I can't prove myself right 100%, but I don't think anyone can prove that it isn't happening.

First of all, I'd like to preface this by saying that PrimeDice has never manipulated a single roll. We are actually profiting below our expected profit thus far. You certainly bring up a reasonable argument and it is something I will absolutely discuss with our developer. However, I don't feel posting a screenshot of an 8 loss streak proves anything, millions of bets are being placed and the term "concrete" should not precede it.

Your other example with MoFo is also moot, he's placed thousands and thousands of bets and has wagered nearly 1000BTC

However, I understand the underlying point you are making and am open to the suggested changes. While we do have a provably fair system it appears it is not as provable as it could be.

This is an interesting concept, but it doesn't relate just to PD, more like to anyone.

I think PrimeDice are more vulnerable to this kind of accusation than either Just-Dice or CoinRoll, because PrimeDice changes the server seed before every roll, whereas CoinRoll only changes it once per day, and Just-Dice never changes it unless the player requests that it be changed.

Not that I think PrimeDice is cheating anyone; I don't.  It's just harder to verify that they aren't - you would have to make a note of each individual server seed, which probably nobody is going to be prepared to do.

The points expressed here and throughout the thread have been duly noted and will be discussed with our developer. We're launching a new version of primedice within the next two weeks and this will be brought to the table. I'm not an expert in provably fair or cryptography, however I am an honest and decent person and am willing to work with the community towards a fix.


It's also important to note that vulnerabilities exist even in a perfect "provably fair" system, even SD could manipulate results if they wanted to.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1frm4x/provably_fair_by_bitzino_not_provable_with/

In many cases Provably fair is not enough. The author of that post mentioned he was working on provably fair II which is also something I'll be looking into implementing. November has my thanks for bringing this to my attention. If anyone has any concerns in the meantime, I suggest changing your client seed at the top of the betting page.

Best Regards,

Stunna




I have lost my 1BTC from your prime dice wallet. 0c694bcb897489615a5c013d0acfb71ddcf88a68a27b0281c7d7fbbc437df3d4 this is the transaction available in the transaction log. How do you explain this?


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: jarrick on September 29, 2014, 06:49:11 AM
Manipuation is a really unfair act.  I believe this pd can get money from every bet. Losing  a btc in PD is usual. You are unlucky enough. I suggest u to use small money if u cant afford to lose it. And bet smaller size. Just a suggestion


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: usupnaruto on September 29, 2014, 10:42:39 AM
its simple to me...fair if i win and unfair if i lost and unfortunately I always lose in this site no matter how much i deposit in here


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: rz20 on September 29, 2014, 11:38:41 AM
its simple to me...fair if i win and unfair if i lost and unfortunately I always lose in this site no matter how much i deposit in here
If your roll is not being manipulated by the casino operator it is fair.


Title: Re: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?
Post by: dooglus on September 29, 2014, 09:43:43 PM
PD is definitely  a scam.  It wouldn't exist if it wasn't.......  I know for a fact the owners track peoples IP address to see how much you made off them, then they manipulate your rolls.  The 'seed change' is just there to make it look nice.

You don't know that for a fact. They can't manipulate your rolls without it being detectable. The provably fairness is there so that anyone who thinks they may have been cheated can determine whether or not they were cheated.

Provably isn't even a god damn word, its made up bullshit.....

Except it is. It means "in a manner capable of proof". ie. a site is provably fair if the rolls are generated in a manner that the site is able to prove is fair. It is the adverb from "provable", capable of proof:

http://i.imgur.com/IqQeecE.png