Bitcoin Forum

Hi everyone,

today i learned (outside the forum) that a project is almost fully developed which is called Piper Paper Wallet.

Researching it within the forum I could only find posts from the developer updating the project on several occasions
with no replies/comments whatsoever.

That is a pretty rare thing on this forum and with a project potentially as huge as this I don't get it.

(I was hoping to find someone asking about security features, being psyched about it or at least bashing it down in the usual manner).

Why has no one taken any interest in it?


Project page: http://www.piperwallet.com/

Kickstarter page: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/299052466/piper-a-hardware-based-paper-wallet-printer-and-mo

Last Thread I could find with replies/comments: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=210701.20

Project Update: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=258057.msg2751595#msg2751595


PS: BTW I am not a paid shill or anything. I am just looking to finally find an easy way to have a really secure wallet (after almost 3 years!!!).

Well you asked: because its a shitty idea.

I dont understand the desire to tie brand new ideas to old annoying terrible things like a paper printer. The whole idea is ruined by the slightest amount of time or moisture.

I think Piper is a big step forward for storing bitcoins safely and easily. See this thread for an idea of the problem:

Do I really need a Bitcoin wallet? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=258203.0)

I think there isn't more enthusiasm because it's not a full solution. It doesn't address the coin spending side too.

There is no reason to bash it because it seems to do what it claims very well with no security holes. This means nobody comments much positively or negatively. I'm glad the project exists, though.

My understanding is the paper used keeps the image about 7 years. Also you can plug in a USB stick (or several) to keep backups of the keys.

First of all: thanks everyone for your replies!

I think that paper wallets which have been created completely offline are a very good thing (especially for people who can't secure a wallet otherwise).

Can you loose paper - YES. Can paper become unreadable - YES.

But still taking care of a piece of paper is a concept most people (also non tech-savvy people) are familiar with.
Furthermore paper can be laminated / copied (with an old fashioned Xerox) / scanned with an offline computer or even photographed.

I was more worried that there might be some hidden dangers (other than the paper degrading problem) with this device.
Usually a whole bunch of people asks for security specifications or points out what is / might be wrong with it.

So far I couldn't find anything (and therefore are inclined to get one).

So thank you for your replies once again.
Should you think of any problems this device could have I'd really appreciated your opinions.


PS: There seem to be two models: type A and type B - type B has an ethernet port...what's with that?

The private keys can be imported to several interfaces, can't they?
So I imagine what you do is this:

a) take your bitcoin paper wallet (w1) from which you want to spend some coins

b) create a new paper wallet (w2)

c) import the whole balance to a client/an online wallet

d) keep what you want to spend there and send the remaining balance to your new paper wallet (w2)

Done.
Am I missing something?

What do you mean by 'it's not a full solution'?

generating paper wallets offline is a bit of a hassle. however its not as much of a hassle as ordering that thing and having it sit around and take up space and ordering special paper. not to mention paying for the thing.

trezor is the way to go if you want more security than you get with a standard client

Can you imagine your grandma installing a new system all by herself?
Can you imagine her thinking about shutting down wifi for that period of time?
Can you imagine her being aware that her new smart printer might be unprotected/store the printed data in its buffer?

I can't.

Can you imagine her pressing a single illuminated button on a little black box and ripping of the piece of paper which comes out of it?

I can.

grandama still has to buy the coins and send them to the wallet and import them from the wallet to spend them.

The killer flaw IMHO is the printer is a heat transfer printer.  As anyone who has seen a paper receipt fade knows those are horribly unreliable for stability.  Expose them to too much light or heat and you will ruin the image. 

Touché.

Getting the coins and importing the keys could be job for the grandson ;)
(in order to keep her money safe she just needs to remember to only give her grandson the upper part of the 'receipt')

That is true. I'd rather see a different kind of printer in this thing but for that problem there are existing (easy) solutions (see above).

There are still two problems.

First, is the complexity of manually managing the private keys. If someone is investing in a wallet option they will want it to take care of most of their needs. If the use case is mostly storing and not spending coins, then Piper may be a great no brainer route to go. As you say most everyone can relate to securing physical things.

The second problem is a paper wallet doesn't mean full security. If you enter a private key onto a compromised computer your bitcoins can be stolen in a fraction of a second. A paper wallet only keeps coins secure so long as they only exist with the paper wallet.

Trezor (http://www.bitcointrezor.com/), for example, addresses both problems and is a full solution.

In theory that is true but I don't think it is very likely. I imagine after storing a portion of my coins for several months or even years I visit blockinfo.com, open my online wallet (2 factor auth.) and Import the keys in a few seconds. What are the odds that exactly that instant an attacker breaches my system?

To increase security: a) several paper wallets only holding a fraction of your total b) always 'spending' the whole balance by using the aforementioned method.

To me that seems pretty safe.

About Trezor:

a) doesn't ship yet
b) like it in general but it still needs more technical skills and understanding than piper
c) you still have to connect trezor to your online device and how would I know that some future malware can't crack/infect it?
d) can only handle one wallet as far as I know
e) if so - I think it's to expensive at the moment

A majority of people on this site have the expertise to generate paper wallets themselves and thus don't need it.  Those who can't do it themselves probably don't understand why they need a paper wallet.

Overall I like the ability to spend my coins so I use an armory offline wallet.

The odds could be good actually.

The nature of bitcoins make them unbelievably attractive to hackers that are immoral. Their increasing adoption and value will only increase attempts to steal them.

If your computer or phone has bitcoin targeting malware then it can wait for the second you enter the private key to transfer bitcoins, assuming an Internet connection is available. The malware can make the transfer in fractions of a second, faster than you can block it. Two factor authentication means nothing if your bitcoins are transferred before you even access them.

Computers don't have the physical limits of humans. Waiting days, months or years to steal coins means nothing.


The way you describe it above you enter the private key with the majority balance before sending the unspent balance back to a paper wallet. If your system is compromised the majority balance can be stolen before reaching the new wallet.


Security is only as strong as the weakest link in the chain. If you have good habits in general for avoiding malware, then yes you probably have little worry. The problem is unless you're pretty much a security expert you can't be sure how likely you are to have obtained malware.


a) I imagine it will eventually
b) it provides a fuller security solution and so warrants the time to learn it, which is not much
c) malware can't infect it because it doesn't use an operating system; it's function specific
d) it can handle any bitcoin balance, small or large, securely
e) I think that depends

I believe this has to do with whether a Raspberry Pi Model A vs Model B is being used under the hood. See:

http://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-51668/l/raspberry-pi-model-a-versus-model-b-chart

Well I don't consider those solutions either easy or good.   Someone who has an offline computer and scanner could simply use that computer for storing coins.  Someone who puts private keys in a digital camera is very likely to accidentally upload them to a computer.  Worse more and more for many people the cellphone is the most common digital camera.  I doubt many people will use their instant-one-button secure printer and then go find a copy machine to make a lasting copy.

No the most common scenario is someone prints out a keypair, puts it away and when they check months or years later the key has faded and all coins are lost.

If you think about the target audience it is going to result in lost coins.

I agree those printouts may not work well in practice... However people might also be more careful with them. Store them in a ziplock bag to protect from moisture and in a safe place, for example. I'd definitely make a USB stick copy too. Also, from what I understand the Piper stores all the keys in memory unless you tell it to forget them.

How does this improve over the paper wallet functionality in Armory (on a permanently offline computer with a fresh OS of course)?

I guess it doesn't, really. The Armory version will give you a more stable printout, but you have to have an offline computer and printer and get all the software set up. With Piper you just press a button. Of course then you have to take better care of the printouts as discussed.

There is no single killer solution yet. Every option has pros and cons and can work better for some users depending on their specific use case. However, I think the Trezor for now provides the best combination of ease of use, unbeatable security, and range of functionality for coin management. It will be the silver bullet solution I think for a long while.

Hmm, looking at Piper's FAQ page it's actually a full computer (Linux distro) allowing you to hook up peripherals like a different printer. You can also customize the wallets or just use pen and paper with it too. Copying addresses out by hand introduces human error and time into the equation, but yeah that's an option. There are lots of options with Bitcoin, however, Trezor seems most well rounded.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=213946

That's not my project but I'm going to do something similar.

My plan is to make a bootable linux DVD with a minimal gui environment, TeXLive install, and a gui app that then creates paper wallets in similar fashion to what is at that link.

Output will be PDF, copy PDF to a thumb drive and then print on your regular printer.

With US Letter you can get 3 wallets per page that when cut will fit nicely into a standard security envelope.

What I'm actually thinking of doing is having it create 2 PDF files - one with the private keys (3 per page) and one using a standard label template that public keys can be printed on.

So you print your private keys (public also on it), put the label stock into your printer and print the public keys.

Put private key into security envelope, seal it, and put public key sticker on the outside.

The boot DVD does not need to bring any network interfaces up. Only security risk is the PDF files that you copy to the thumb drive and possibly printer buffer (or wireless network to printer) but if you have a linux friendly printer direct connected not even that issue exists as you can just print from the boot DVD.

LaTeX has cake QR code generation - (pst-barcode package) - and using something like python could easily generate the .tex files to feed it.

As far as a hardware device, there's no need for it.
A boot DVD is all you need.

The project is quite cool, but it is flawed.

The printer uses thermal paper. Thermal paper fades VERY quickly. Now that's a pretty big flaw.

If it was part of a throwaway quick use system (designed to be used imidiately) it could be useful.

If the designer changed it to your old style dot matrix printing I'd buy 2 of these right now.

I suspect the reason why thermal is used is because laser too expensive and inkjet - the ink goes bad if it isn't used.

Most people are not going to be printing massive numbers of paper wallets.

That's why a boot DVD is better, you don't have to have hardware dedicated to something most people will use less than once a month. You can print from the printer you normally use to print from.

Checked out Armory.

a) doesn't support Snow Leopard (Mac)

b) announcement that the client doesn't run - your money is safe you just can't reach it for the time being.

LOL - it's just funny!

I've been working on a paper wallet printing project for the last few months and just started a crowdfunding campaign.

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/bitfrore-bitcoin-cold-paper-wallet-printer/x/3922568 (http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/bitfrore-bitcoin-cold-paper-wallet-printer/x/3922568)

I specifically chose a micro dot matrix printer as the basis because I was concerned about archiving thermal printouts.

I need support as its expensive to bootstrap a hardware company in the EU due to the necessary certifications,insurance and waste management costs.

If you're interested please pledge your support.

I'm biased of course but  dedicated device has a much smaller attack surface.

The site used to host the DVD image can be compromised and the image replaced with one that generates predicatable wallets.

The computer used to burn the DVD may be compromised to recognize the iso image and modify it to generate predictable wallets.
This would be impossible to detect without a dedicated offline system that has never seen the internet to verify the integrity of the DVD.

The computer used to run the image may be compromised with a hypervisor rootkit that recognizes the DVD and again modify it to generate predictable wallets.
This is impossible to detect without a dedicated offline system that has never seen the internet to verify the integrity of the DVD.

These modifications would be as simple as crippling the RNG in the kernel.

These are hypothetical but more specific hacks have been written in the past (e.g. Stuxnet)

A dedicated device is still difficult to verify but at least its not a moving target like an malware infested machine "securely" booted from a DVD.

No, it won't. They may say that, but it's not true.

Know what archivists do when they get given something to archive that's on thermal paper?

The usually tranquil and relaxed archivist goes batshit insane, cursing hell and heaven for about half an hour, trying to summon demons or angels to smite the retarded fuckup who tasked him with this idiocy.

After that fails he calmly walks over to the copier, makes a paper copy, files that and throws the thermal paper original away.

When his workday is over he walks into the nearest bar and drinks himself into a stupor while loudly and slurredly complaining about the mere existence of thermal paper.

lol

Yeah I think you're right. Something as questionable as thermal paper shouldn't even be offered for storing something of high potential value, even with digital backups. It's a false sense of security.

Bitfrore

That is almost impossible to pronounce. What does it mean?


Is the printing fine enough to support QR? I watched the video and the printed area seemed kind of faint.

Like the design!

How long do you think you need to produce this thing?
 

it could work like that. you make your own money and fill your wallet up. then when you buy something you hand them the note. they import the private key and send the change to a specified address. since you were buying from retail stores you could expect them to be honest and send the correct change.

They have these things called dollars or euros now that fulfill that role.

-

Use acid-free, archive-save paper conforrming to ISO standard ISO 9706 and an electrostatic printing process (for instance laser printing). Do NOT use a colour printer, use a B/W only printer. Do NOT use refurbished or value toner cartridges (you never know what crap they put in there). Keep in a darkened environment. For archiving purposes lasting up to several hundred years use archival quality paper conforrming to ISO standard 11108.

Peter Piper made a wallet.

It hink this guy has the right idea. i think something liek this could make BTC work flawlessly with POS systems.
You go out shopping you get to the store print out a wallet with a pin code on the private key you go grab what you want you hit the register you scan the private key wipe the funds and print your change on the receipt using the same pin code. then you could use your receipt from foot locker and go spend it at cinnabon or something. and at the end of the day you scan the code with your phone and put it back in your online account your cold storage or whatever.
I don't know if you guys have played slot machines in casinos these days but they print out vouchers that you put in the next machine or you can cash out. it works perfectly with them and if you think about it that is exactly the same market. slots use small transactions and and use vouchers to avoid the overwhelming amount of old style currency.

Personally if this had a couple things to make it into a full POS i would buy dozens of them and sell them to shop owners.
Another perk would be that shop owners could take cash for a purchase and offer their change in BTC. Helps the business since they are more likely to repeat business at a BTC friendly store and helps BTC all together.
Stores don't have to fumble with change you can have a secured form of cash that requires a personal pin and you can purchase things without leaving a footprint like visa.

I think something like this could make the whole idea of BTC viable to the normal public. us geeky folk just don't like watering down technology but its necessary for any technology to be adopted.

Agreed, though a key would be preferable to a DVD. The ideal solution is a plug-in USB key that is pre-loaded with Linux and will print to a PDF on the same key.  So all the user has to do is plug in the key to an off-line computer, boot-up, make one click, and he gets a whole load of freshly generated paper wallets on a PDF. Job done.

I have received my Piper, international shipping, and I'm totally happy.

Sure the thermal paper doesn't last forever, but it can be connected to a regular printer and print out this way if you would like as well.

It also can save keys to a USB Key for backing up that was as well. Just plug in a formatted key, and it auto dumps the keys. There is a switch as well if you don't want it to remember the keys.

It's running linux so no reason why a future update can't have it work with Trezor, additionally, I have the Ethernet port model meaning I could connect it to my network, with a trezor, maybe make a web front end and you have a nice compact local Bitcoin thin client (I think electrum runs on it).

Pretty awesome, pretty simple. Press a button and out comes the QR codes.

What are your thoughts on laminating as a way to preserve a printed paper?

It would highly depend on your specific purpose. For keeping your own records it is a certainly a valid method, especially the newer cold lamination methods. For papers of scientific historic value lamination is no longer recommended. A huge amount of historic papers was laminated with varying methods starting in the 1930s and it's been shown that the effects of certain lamination methods have a higher degrading effect on the paper than if the paper had simply been stored in a controlled environment (controlled for light, humidity, temperature).

Naturally you won't want to use hot lamination methods on simple direct thermal paper like the piper uses.

Does this use thermal paper?

This thing is so freaking cool, I feel like Link who just acquired a new item. It's kinda like the candle because you can keep using it over and over. (Legend of Zelda NES reference)

I brought it to a local meetup and blew some minds, an average person won't care about long term storage, they walk away with new internet money on a piece of paper. I wonder what other cool things will come out of the Bitcoin ecosystem? P.S. looking forward to more alt coin support!

Its really cool.  Works perfectly with mycelium wallet.

lots of people hate on thermal paper.  Its fine.  Check it out every couple of months.  If its fading then reprint.  I cold store on embossed metal dogtags.  I love it