Bitcoin Forum

Hello,

I have been thinking a lot about BTC, how nice and beautiful it can be, but I came to the conclusion that it reached its maximum spreading. Here is why.

Prelude

I know that a lot of bitcoiners think that banks = evil, and that they should not make money. I am not gonna discuss that matter here ; even if I do not understand why private companies (banks) are less legitimate to make profits than companies selling water when people can't stop drinking water, or companies that have to employ young children 12 hours per day in China to manufacture products. I will only focus about bitcoin and fiat currencies.

Why do people use bitcoins?

I can see only 5 main reasons that make people using bitcoins:
- for buying stuff online (but only occasionally).
- for buying illegal things online (drugs).
- money laundering.
- for investing, and making some profit.
- eventually, as a safe haven like gold.

1) Buying products online

The first use of bitcoins is to buy stuff online. You can go here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=51.0), here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=93.0) for digital goods or here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=75.0) for computer hardware for example. You can also go to bitmit (https://www.bitmit.net/) to buy some other stuff, or different online shops that accept bitcoins.

The number of shops that accepts bitcoin might increase in the future, but it will be used only occasionally.
The first reason is a trust matter. When you send bitcoins to a seller, you have no idea if he will ever deliver you the products (ask BFL). You can use an escrow but (1) it is a hassle and (2) you have no more clue that the escrow is more trustworthy that the seller. So basically you are sending money, hoping to receive the product, without any guaranty. When you pay with fiat money, you can easily charge back, or get refunded in case of a problem...
The second reason is about the price. What is the point of buying something, if you can have it cheaper somewhere else? There is 2 ways of getting bitcoins: mining or buying. Mining will be hardly profitable, and if you have to buy bitcoins with fiat, pay the exchanges fees, and then pay the bitcoins fees, you will end up with paying an higher price rather than paying with a Credit Card...

Therefore, it will mainly stay at a smaller scale, like now, with occasional transactions, and for cheap stuff, or when anonymity matters.

 2) Buying illegal stuff online

I will develop a lot this part, but if you want to buy drugs, you can go to silk road. Of course, it is only a small aspect of the bitcoin economy, but at least this part will remain.

 3) Money laundering

I am not gonna explain much about it as well... But bitcoin can be used to do that.

4) Investing

When media spoke about bitcoins earlier this year, a lot of people wanted to invest in bitcoins to make money. Still, some of them are using this sub-forum (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=57.0) to speculate about bitcoin price and make some profit. At the end of the day, they do not care about bitcoins, and they only want to make some dollars.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=288699.msg3092674#msg3092674

 5) Asset?

I do not know if people are doing that, but eventually bitcoin can become like gold an asset that people buy thinking that the value will remain constant or increase in the future (hoarding? Not sure if that is the correct term).

Why bitcoin is popular for scammers?

Bitcoin transactions are irreversible. If you send 1 btc to an address, you can never get it back, if the owner does not want to. There is no regulation, no police ... That's why it is a scammer paradise. You can see people giving IDs (fake or not), and scamming for less than 10 dollars here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=65.0).

If you manage to get some bitcoins, you are free to do anything with it. Nodoby knows who you are, and you can spend them as you like. That's why a lot of wallets got hacked, or mt.gox accounts. Even with SMS double authentification, you can find in the forum people crying and complaining about compromised accounts.

Bitcoin-central got hacked twice, and instawallet is still struggling to refund compromised accounts, 5 months later (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=167215.0).

Why bitcoin can not extend more?

There are 4 6 7 main reasons:
- what I just said before (about scammers). Bitcoins is unsafe for customers, because transactions are irreversible.
- because it is not convenient to use.
- because the fees are too high
- because confirmations are too slow.
- because the value is changing too quickly.
- because people don't trust it.
- block size.

5 reasons to use bitcoins, but only the first one is interesting to increase the spread of bitcoins. Buying drugs, money laundering, investing and hoarding are just anecdotic. The main thing that could extend bitcoin is the ability to buy more legal things online (point 1)... But it should not be able to exceed current stage.

 1) Scams

Bitcoins is not safe for customers. If your wallet is hacked, noone will never give you back your fund. You can't file a complaint and upload evidence. You are fucked up. Therefore, it will never be reach a massive adoption, if it does not become safer. And it can not become safer because of what it is: irreversible transactions.

 2) Not convenient to use

When I first downloaded the client, I knew nothing about IT, computers, and crypto. I installed the software, and I read some stuff on internet. I found it really difficult to learn about, and I stopped reading quite quickly because I understood nothing.

It is not user friendly. When I use my phone, I am not Einstein, I know nothing about telecommunication, modulation, demodulation and so on, but it is really easy to use.

I tried to download the blockchain. It took ages. I gave up.
I searched more, and register on an online wallet (blockchain.info).

But who will do that? Any new user, will just give you and forget about it. If you open the software and find it difficult to use, lousy, you won't bother persevere.

 3) Fees are too high

Bitcoins fees will become higher and higher. Block rewards will decrease, so the miners will have to increase the fees if they want some incentive to keep the things running. For a customers point of view, Credit Card are free of charge, and can even make you save some money (cash back).

Anyway, you have to buy bitcoins one way or an other: by investing in a mining equipment, or buy buying it directly. So, you have to pay some fees in order to convert fiat -> btc. You can get paid by bitcoins, but it is unlikely to happen due to the high volatily of the price.

Then, when you make a bitcoin transaction you have to pay for the network fees, and often for the websites/sellers fees... So, at the end of the day, you pay more than if you did not buy bitcoin. You gain in anonymity, but you pay more. And for legal purposes, it is bad. :(

 4) Confirmations are too slow

An other problem is that confirmations are too slow.
Credit Cards take up to 180 days to proceed but they confirm within seconds.

Bitcoin transactions need at least 1 confirmation to proceed (because of double spent). And up to 2 - 6 confirmations to proceed. So, it is much faster to proceed but much longer to confirm. Problem is that only confirmation is important: it is the time you wait before leaving the supermarket.

And it won't be possible to wait a couple of hours or days with your bags at Walmart, before the transaction is confirmed...

 5) Price volatility

With 10k bitcoins in 2010 you could buy a pizza. Now, in 2013, you can buy a house, a car, and a kidney.
With 10k usd in 2010 you could buy a car. You still can buy a car now with the same amount of money.

It is compulsory for a merchant, to have a price stability. If you can buy 1 products or 3 with the same amount of money depending on the day of the month, you rely too much on the current price, and you can't run a decent business. Imagine that you get paid a car just before mt.gox lags and crash: you would have lost more than half of the price of the car....

Bitcoin price will always be volatile because of the tiny market, and it is not going to implement a stable economy out of it.

6) Trust

Did you ever try to speak to anyone who does not know anything about bitcoin? What did they say?

"- I don't trust it, it's a crap".

If people don't trust something, they will not use it. Why would they trust bitcoins if they can lose it all anytime?
Why would they trust bitcoins if the value can change so quickly?
Why would they trust bitcoins if it is not backed by any government in the world? By nothing at all? And can be attacked/abandonned/cracked anytime.

They simply won't. And they do.

7) Block size


Imagine that miners want 50 btc / block like before, it means that every transaction should have at least a 0.025 btc fee. Assuming that btc price rises and reach a value between 500$ and 1,000$ it will cost between 12 and 25$ per transaction.

The second problem is simple: 2 000 transactions / block means 200 transactions / min maximum. This is not enough for the whole world.

Conclusion

Some improvements can be make in order to create some tool more user-friendly.
It is also possible to fix some issues with the confirmations.

But some intrinsic aspects of bitcoins make it not possible to be used widely like USD or EUR:
- transaction are irreversible (good for scammers - trust problems with sellers).
- fees will grow higher and higher, and you can't do anything but buy btc. So, why not just buy it with fiat?


But it does not mean that bitcoin will disappear. It does not mean that it will be worth nothing in 2015.
It will be used, like it is now. Maybe by more people in the future. The price might increases if people thinks that it is a safe asset, and that its value might increase in the future. The number of shops accepting bitcoins might even increase. But we will never go to the next step.

BTC is not going to replace fiat.
BTC is not going to rule the world.
BTC was not intended to.

- reserved for updates -

Sorry for my bad English.



september 6th.

Added 3 reasons:
- because the value is changing too quickly.
- because people don't trust it.
- block size.

Added a quote from Nigeria Prince.

Bitcoin, as it is now, exposes endusers to an inacceptable amount of risk.
That's why not all endusers will be using bitcoin directly in the future, but rather through online wallets, payment services like Paypal and even banks (there, I said it).

The level of inconvenience is already on the decline. Think of Email a few decades ago, it wasn't really that convenient to use it over uucp, with qwk readers and stuff. That's what technological progress is all about, difficult technology is going to become easier to use.

Fees are relatively low, especially compared to alternatives. In the end, the market will decide about the fees that will be paid, so it's going to be competitive at whatever fees there will be in the future.

For some uses, confirmations are too slow, but there is nothing from stopping endusers from using alternatives for those uses.
Obviously, a bank transfer is "too slow" today for many practical uses, but that doesn't stop people from using those.

Did you read my message?
I never said that the number of people using bitcoins will decrease. Or that new shops will not accept bitcoins. Or things won't change.
I said that bitcoin is never gonna replace fiat, and it will stick to his current uses.




Then, they won't use bitcoin, because it is not convenient and not safe:

Mt Gox account hacked! (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=286785.0)
Mtgox Account Hacked (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282868.0)
bitstamp and mtgox accounts hacked at same time (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282377.0)
Bitcoin wallet hacked! (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=256421.0)
Mt. Gox account hacked, 21.88 BTC stolen :( Have IP and BTC address.. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=254920.0)
...
[HACKED] while i was on holiday. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38299.0)
My account has been hacked. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=17391.0)

someone could scam you in ebay too and they use credit cards.
That's why they have a trust system.
In fact buyers can scam sellers with paypal by claiming they did not recieve the product.

Well, people use online-banking, do they?
That's also just bits and bytes secured by other bits and bytes.

You can open a dispute in Paypal. And ebay is not the only buyer out there.
Credit Card have insurance that bitcoin does not have.




Yes, which can be refunded within days by filing a complaint / police report in case of a problem.
But with bitcoin you can only cry here.

That's not difficult to solve, you need an overlay of offchain transaction then you can have chargebacks easily.
But "no chargebacks" is great for merchants, if they focus on getting a good reputation.

Cash payments also are irreversible.

Blockchain.info online wallet is as easy to use as online banking systems.

You can accept micro-transactions without waiting any confirmations, it is not just worth for scammer to perform an attack.
Off-blockchain services like Inputs.io offer zero fee transfers.

P.S. I think next major adopter of Bitcoin will be porn industry because elimination of the chargebacks is great advantage for these companies.

What makes you think that the speculators are trying to accumulate dollars?

Although it is widely believed that acceptance of BTC without any confirmations is unsafe, a man who knows about these things told me as follows:

"I believe 0-confirmation transactions are very safe in most cases. Version 0.9 of bitcoin-qt should include functionality to verify with peers that no conflicting transaction exists; by waiting a few seconds and doing this verification, I believe the chances of double-spending for transactions in the sub-$100 range is negligible, especially for physical stores selling illiquid products."

If so, this would be a very significant development.

Marco, you overlook some other actually or potentially important features of bitcoin::

1.  It offers a means of digital payment for people outside of the banking system (a lot of people outside of The West).

2.  It offers innovative payment / security mechanisms. For example, two of three party signing is far superior to traditional escrow because it avoids credit risk with the escrow and only requires the active involvement of the escrow  if the seller and buyer cannot agree. This is novel and potentially very powerful.

3. It offers a means of avoiding oppressive capital controls.

4. It offers an excellent means of storing wealth securely, flexibly and privately.

5. Subject to the confirmation point (see post above), it offers pure upside to vendors: lower fees, no fraud risk, no exchange risk (Bitpay etc).

I am sure there are other things I have forgotten or don't know about.


 

Absolutely agree with marcovaldo,

Communist propaganda always pictures bankers as fat and greedy, sitting on a bags of gold. What I know that to build any business and risk your money is much harder than just go every morning to local government work, be protected by union to degree that you can not be fired at all (you have to make really bad something to be fired), and  come every evening home and do not have any headache. Just try to call your bank to ask something. You will be answered day or night politely. Now try to call to some city agency. You will be transferred to answer machine and nobody will call you back. And if you will cam to agency, workers will be rude.
Don't think that I work for some bank or whatever. I work for local government. But for me owner of small business is a hero. He will be treated like shit with city inspectors trying to fine him for any small violation. Those inspectors got they salary paid by taxes all people pay, including this small business owner. And business owner does not have any protection and risking to lose whole his business.

Now, talking about bitcoins, sure, for a lot of people it was idea to get easy money via mining. But it looks like this time is almost gone and only profitable for those who has "free" electricity. A lot of these people, actually, stealing electricity from somebody who pays it, and in the same time blame bankers as "greedy" people. Also they want to be a bankers (they will not tell you that), but don't want to take a risk and put they money into business.

Now, some try to tell me that bitcoin transaction can be safe and cash transactions are irreversible. Well, even with cash transaction you can have some receipt or other document where you can find identity and complain to authorities. Yes, if you bought drug with cash you will not have it probably. And why use cash anyway? I don't remember when I used one. I buy everything, I mean EVERYTHING with my credit card. Yes, I pay balance in full every month.

many of your points are right, but history never repeats itself.

Bitcoin is an experiment, its like you watch the genesis of a currency in fast motion. And in no field is more scam and greed as in a currency. Look at the ASIC-Madness, as you I don't have a background in IT, I had to learn all this things, and I was very disappointed to accept ASICs generate absolutey no Mehrwert (surplus), they just heat up a closed system wherein the greedful are trapped.

But Bitcoin is new, totally new, and if it won't be just Fiat 2.0 it has to find its own way of selfregulation. If it does, it actually could become important. Banks do a lot of thing to make money flow secure and feeless, and they do it very complicated and circumstantial. Bitcoin could achieve this much easier.

I know that a lot of bitcoiners think that banks = evil, [/quote]


Are U the president of an EVIL Bank
???  >:( U Sound like one  ???
I don't think banks are evil, just the people that RUN the banks!

The hole concept of banking has evolved to trap society into a endless and growing debt. So yes, banks as we know them today is pretty much evil.

OP missed a fundamental point. Bitcoin is scarce and powered by greed. Greed is part of human nature, that's why it will extend more and more no matter what.

Seems reasonable.
First drugs, then gambling, porn seems like a logical next growth market :)

And bad for customers.
So why would customers choose to use it?
For normal, everyday, mundane transactions, Bitcoin doesn't really offer the normal consumer anything they don't already have with a combination of cash, debit cards, credit cards and PayPal.

Really? Can you send money to Iran with credit card?

Did you actually read my post?
Do you really think that sending money to Iran counts as an everyday mundane transaction for a normal consumer?

Buying groceries.
Buying gas or a train ticket.
Paying rent.
Going out for a meal.
Those are normal transactions.

It is not because you can't

So you think that if it were possible, most people would start sending money to Iran all the time?
The only reason they aren't it because they don't know about Bitcoin?
 :o

Yes I think so.
Do you really think that Iran and other financially restricted countries has nothing to offer to the rest of the world?

Boggle.
Just to get this straight.
You think most normal consumers outside Iran have a real desire to send money into Iran, and the only thing stopping them is a lack of an easy process to do so?
Not some people, not the odd one or two, but this is actually something that most normal people would want to do?

Fist, I'm sorry but I did't know that normal people only reside in US


Bitcoin has absolutely no restriction, and believe me that there is way more people interested in that feature than you might think.

What I said was:

To which you responded:

Sending money to Iran implies being outside Iran.
What I'm saying is that most normal consumers outside Iran do not have any need to send money to Iran.
In fact given that Iran has a population of maybe 75-80 million, and the world has a population of almost 100 times as much as that, it seems likely to me that only a tiny fraction of the non-Iranian population has any reason to be sending funds to Iran.

Other than a truly surreal diversion into Iranian finances, do you disagree that for mundane transactions like:
Buying groceries
Buying gas or train tickets
Paying rent
Going out for a meal

Bitcoin doesn't really offer any overall advantage over the existing available payment methods: cash, check (forgot that one before), debit card, credit card or PayPal?

Fine, do you know how much China, Russia and North Korea are doing business with Iran?
A lot
And believe me that they are sick to use US dollars.

But I guess they are not normal people.

No, they are countries.
I doubt very much whether many everyday Chinese, Russian or North Korean citizens are sending money to Iran.

please can you explain which are normal peoples which are using US dollars

Just to give you an idea Iran is the second exporter of oil in china.

http://s13.postimg.org/fi332xn9j/20120910111216china.jpg


But you are right. Those countries have absolutely no commercial interest.

I give up.
You just keep posting random comments which have nothing to do with what I am saying.
I'm not saying there is no usage model for Bitcoin, no situation in which it offers an advantage.
I'm saying that I don't currently see an advantage for normal everyday consumers buying things like groceries and gas over existing payment methods they already have. I have said this same thing to you at least three times now.
And you respond with comments about sending money to iran, oil revenues, and government actions and commercial interests.
None of which address my posts in any way.
Continue with your ramblings without me.

My point is the advantages for consumers will come with adoption and solutions. And adoption won't go through "normal consumers" but with other specific interest with bitcoin unique features. It is only a matter of time.
 

Here is why you are wrong:
1) Scams. The Internet is full of scams. Most of them existed before bitcoin and will continue to exist if bitcoin went away. Bitcoin puts more risk to the buyer while PayPal transfers the risk (of charge backs) to the seller. sellers love bitcoins while buyers love PayPal. One is not better than the other. They are just different. Right now bitcoin is used mainly for transactions with individuals and small companies. Imagine if amazon.com accepted bitcoin. Would you hesitate to buy merchandise from them with bitcoin? I'm guessing you wouldn't have an issue with because they are large, trusted company. Bitcoin is like cash and cash has existed for a long time without reversible transactions.

In the future there will be online wallets that insured by the companies holding them so that your coins are safe even it their site is hacked. There is nothing to prevent this from happening once banks get in on the bitcoin game. Only libertarians -- the kind that keeps gold bars in a safe and cash under their mattress will bother keeping their savings in a local wallet,

2) Bitcoin is inconvenient. Yes, bitcoin isn't convenient to use now but there is nothing that says it must always be this way. New software will be developed that will make bitcoin easier to use. New exchanges will be started that will make it easier to buy and sell bitcoins (I personally think that coinbase is pretty darn simple). And in the future no one will ever be downloading the whole blockchain. People will use online wallets, or they will use local wallets that don't require the whole blockchain. Bitcoin ATMs will be out there and there will be plenty of easy to use mobile bitcoin apps and wallets. If you can use online banking, you'll be able to use bitcoin. Bitcoin is still new there ans we have a ways to go but there is no reason we can't get there.

3) Fees are too high. This is not true at all. Fees are very low right now. In fact, you can still send bitcoins for free and have your transaction accepted into the blockchain. Worst case scenario, you have to add 5 or 10 cents to the transaction.

Fees do not need to go up once the block reward goes away!! Why not? Well, the fees can stay low because by then we expect the NUMBER of transactions per block to greatly increase as bitcoin becomes more widespread. Fees can still be 5 cents per transaction. The difference is we will have 1000 times more transactions.

Furthermore, credit cards are NOT free. Credit card companies charge merchants 2-3% to process transactions. Who ends up paying that? Well, you do in the form of higher prices. Merchants would love to charge you less if you use cash (and many gas stations do) but in general the credit card industry imposes strict rules to prevent merchants from doing that if they want to be able to accept credit cards at all.

Exchanges currently are a pain to use and can be expensive. But as Bitcoin gains acceptance and there are more exchanges, increased competition will bring lower fees and easier to use exchanges. In the future, exchanging fiat for bitcoin will be done for such a small fee it will be essentially free.

4) Confirmations are too slow. No, they are virtually instantaneous. There is no reason for most ,enchants to even wait for a block confirmation. Double spending is almost impossible to perform in practice and I've yet to hear of anyone successfully double spending in the real world ever. And the risk can be reduced if the merchant uses a payment processor that watches the network for double spend attempts. Already merchants such as Foodler will credit your bitcoin deposit immediately without waiting for confirmation. The only time a merchant might want to wait for confirmation would be for an expensive item like a car and those purchases usually take much longer today anyways. Finally, if you are using bitcoins on the Internet instead of POS, confirmation time doesn't really matter.

Merchants love bitcoin because they get their money right away too. Credit card companies take a long time to actually send money to the merchants (as you pointed out).

murraypaul,

you can't explain to some people that if Russia, North Korea and some other communist countries sending money to Iran does not mean people of those countries want to send money also.
And what the point to use bitcoins for money transfer between countries? They do not do it because they are not that stupid anyway.

knight22 says "The hole concept of banking has evolved to trap society into a endless and growing debt. So yes, banks as we know them today is pretty much evil", same time he says " Bitcoin is scarce and powered by greed". So, why then miners are better than bankers?

murraypaul, do not try to find much logic here. Also, you can not explain some serious things to kids or just not really educated people.

And yes, i don't care about my privacy when I buy bread or gas. Probably if I will buy drugs then I will.

The most important reason that bitcoin attracted a lot of attention:

Fiat money are constantly inflated by central banks. In just a few years FED has printed 400% more money than 2008, this in turn created huge debt (national debt and housing debt) which might take many decades to unwind, or default

How would it be possible to insure that the wallet will remain safe? Assuming that Amazon uses bitcoins, and some random guy found the private key of the wallet, and send all the bitcoins to a mixing service. How would you retrieve the coins? How would you revert an irreversible transactions? How do you track an untrackable move?


I think that it is not a big deal, with safety is the main problem. You can see in the newbie section people complaining about comprised online wallet every day, even with double authentification ON. :(


Current fees: 0,005 btc = 67,25 USD cents.
If you are buying a car it's fine. But if you are buying a 1 USD item, or moving money from wallet to wallet, it can increase quite a lot: almost 7 USD for 10 transactions, that you can do within 12 hours.

The numbers of transactions can go up, or down, and the fees as well. In the future, it might even not be possible to send btc without the fees.

Why would I care if the seller pays fees to VISA? If I am a customer and I don't pay anything, I don't pay more if I pay with a credit card, or by cash, I don't really care... You say that some merchants are selling cheaper if you pay by cash? I have never seen any of these.

Do you think that the blockchain will accept more transactions by blocks?
I have been waiting for 3 days for my last transaction to proceed (no fees). It took 45 minutes to get one confirmation with a 67 cents fee. I am not sure, but it seems that it is taking longer and longer to confirm. Before, transactions with fees were instant, and without took 12 hours max.



Yes maybe, but do you think that it will impossible in the future to double spend the bitcoins with new technique / with and without fees? And some tricks?

You are probably not educated enough to understand the difference between a miner an a banker

What was the point to say that "Bitcoin is scarce and powered by greed"? Bitcoin powered by miners, without miners Bitcoin is nothing (no transaction can be done without them).

And yes, greed is powering everything. You and me, we both are greedy. But I do not blame others. It is hypocrisy

You are wrong with decimal point - default fee is 0.0005 BTC.

There are two issues here. First, if your bank is hacked and they lose money, do you lose anything? No, you don't. The bank is FDIC insured. You can not lose the deposits in your checking or savings account. Bitcoins can be insured too (though not necessarily FDIC). It will be the banks responsibility to hold on to your coins, likely in offline cold storage. If they get stolen, it is their insurance that will have to cover the theft. What am I saying is that there are secure ways for the common man to store his bitcoins. Most people do not store large amounts of gold or cash or whatever in their homes for fear of theft. They use banks. The same will be true for bitcoin.


Online wallets will be come more secure, especially as they begin to be run by larger and more reputable companies. I wouldn't trust my savings account to some company on the internet I've never heard although people are forced to do just that with their bitcoin online wallets. This won't necessarily be true in the future, though.



You should care because those credit card fees get passed on to you. Every merchant I've known who previously was cash only and then began accepting credit cards raised their prices to compensate. The majority of gas stations (at least in the US) have lower prices for those people who pay cash instead of credit. Regular merchants are not allowed to due to credit card rules. Their is an exception for gas stations.

The blockchain can accept far more transactions than are currently processed.
My no-fee transactions can sometimes take an hour or two. I've never had a transaction with a fee included take more than a single block. I haven't noticed transactions taking longer. The current fee is only 0.0005, not 0.005, and that is only 6 cents. You are off by an order of magnitude.


Double spending will only become harder as difficulty goes up and the size of the bitcoin network inceases. It's near impossible already and is it definitely worth the risk for small merchants like grocery stores that prefer instant transactions.

+21000000

You will not see lower fees for using Bitcoin at any Credit Card accepting merchant. The Merchant Agreement prohibits this. The means that even people paying cash pay credit card fees. This leads people to think that credit cards have no fees and even pay you money every month. That money is coming out of the merchant fees that they are not allowed to pass on to credit card users.

I am interested in Bitcoin mainly for online shopping. I refuse to use a credit card for online purchases due to the replay attack. And the fine-print is scary.

The 4 reasons he gives, 2 of which are false, and the other 2 are easily solved (even he says it can all be solved)

+21 million? really?

bitcoin may or may not "extend more" but it will have nothing to do with what is outlined here...

merchant have recently been allowed to add a fee for credit cards
merchant are also allowed to refuse your CC if you're buying less then 10$ of stuff with it.

+1 actually :)

High fees problem can't be solved, they are high by design.
Slow confirmations can't be solved as well. At least without trusting to 3rd party.

Hi

You are missing something really basic.

You are comparing bitcoin to fiat as equal, crypto-economy is young and a lot of money and workforce is being invested everyday in it's development.

How was fiat currencies going after few years of adoption?

We alone are about to launch some big projects, apart from our website, and we are not the only company, many are growing.

If people who are used to business are investing in bitcoin is because there is potential.

Thanks for opening this thread, it is constructive to discuss this matter.

Here are some situations where using bitcoin might be preferable:
1. The merchant won't sell goods under a certain value by credit card.
2. The merchant will add the credit card/debit card fees to the transaction - e.g. low budget airlines - so the consumer pays the fees directly.
3. Buying goods in parts of the world where credit card/debit card fraud is very common.
4. Buying goods from merchants who don't have the ability to take credit or debit cards (street stalls etc)
 

In most of those cases, Bitcoin might be preferable to credit card, but not to cash, which will always be the simplest and cheapest option for low value face to face transactions.
For 2, are there any that add fees to debit card transactions? Ryanair, known for being cheapskates, don't, only to credit card transactions.
And how many street stalls who can't take debit cards are instead going to have bitcoin processing set up?
(And for 3, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that parts of the world where credit card fraud is common are also parts of the world where fraudulent merchants are common, and you would value the extra protection credit cards offer.)
Again, I've never said there are no uses for Bitcoin, I just think that people who see it taking over the world and being the sole, or even majority, form of transaction, are fooling themselves.
For the majority of boring, mundane, everyday, transactions, especially face-to-face ones, Bitcoin is a solution in search of a problem.
That isn't to say that there are not problems for which it is a solution, but there seem to be far too many evangelists here who see it as the One True Solution to all ills.

I will update my post and add 2 other reasons.

I use it!

you use it too...

why are you saying hypocritical things

I am speaking about "common people". I spoke with a few people about bitcoins and they laughed at me.
Normal people will not trust bitcoins because it is shady, difficult to understand, offers no protection to buyers whatsoever, and not backed by anything at all. They see it as a Ponzi / scam, and will stay away from it.


I also add the price problem.


And, I repeat myself but:
I don't think that bitcoins will disappear, or that new shops won't accept bitcoins. But it will never go to the next step.
It does not mean that the number of transactions won't increase, or the value will not reach 1k usd/btc.

what makes you and I so special?

We are registered on https://bitcointalk.org , learnt and read about bitcoins.
146 068 members are registered here. Maybe 5 000 - 50 000 have more than 10 posts and are active.

I am talking about the other 7 billion people.
Ones that matter, because their number make their decisions right, whatever they think.

Cash is not simpler. In order for me to use cash I have to go to an ATM. I don't like to carry around a lot of cash due to the risk of me losing it or it getting stolen. Therefore I find myself at the ATM at least a couple times a week. In general, it is easier to use a credit or debit card for most transactions. I only use cash at bars and places that don't take credit cards and for very small transactions.

To spend bitcoins I only need my phone. I always have my phone and using blockchains wallet the transaction is faster than using my credit card or debit card. There are a couple of restaurants near me that accept bitcoins and I try to eat their as much as possible.

Street stalls are taking credit cards now if they buy something like this for their phones: https://squareup.com/
It's still much cheaper and easier to take bitcoins, though. Still cash will always be preferred for transactions like those. Maybe bitcoins will never dominate the street vendor market, lol. Oh well, no big loss. It is still better for the other 99% of transactions out there.

OP has serious problem with perspectives ... between "bitcoin will never extend more" ... "bitcoin replaces fiat" is a gulf of usage wider than the Pacific ocean. You seem to have little to zero concept of  the sheer magnitude of fiat balances that are sloshing around the globe in databases looking for yield since central banks money began printing for the last 30 years. Think in the order of tens of trillions ... current bitcoin issued valued represents in range of ~ 0.01% of total fiat issued, then think of gold, silver, property and other liquid assets that monetised far beyond their yield by the fiat money bubbles.

If bitcoin replaces even a small fraction of fiat used in commerce it will be a success (and probably valued in the thousands of US$ at that point).

http://www.runtogold.com/images/potential-bitcoin-prices.jpg

http://www.runtogold.com/2013/07/bitcoinlandia-where-mythical-investment-grand-slams-are-reality/ (http://www.runtogold.com/2013/07/bitcoinlandia-where-mythical-investment-grand-slams-are-reality/)

+ I also believe that BTC will continue to grow and develop. There is a huge amount of innovation taking place right now, with BTC and across all the crypto-currencies. We are at the beginning of something very big,it has not gone mainstream by any means. Granted, it is not able to go mainstream at this time since security has to be increased and ease of use has to be implemented on a wider scale. Those things will come with time and the market for BTC products will develop, the future is very exciting.

In July we had our first formal meetup event in Phoenix, 6 people attended.
The next meeting had 10 people. Then 18 people at the next, and now 28 at the meetup last Wednesday. 

It's just really beginning to spread.  And its not like how paypal (x.com remember?) spread, once you catch "bitcoin" you
become an activist.  Bitcoin is not just a currency, a speculation vehicle, or store of value;  It's a disruptive movement that cannot be stopped.

 

Although bitcoin and fiat money can serve the same purpose (payment function), but they are fundamentally different. One is honest money (need work to produce), one is fake money (produced without any cost). Legally counterfeiting money is still counterfeiting, no matter how many beautiful economy theories were applied to disguise it

Actually another very common situation which ordinary people encounter is spending on holiday. Buying foreign currency is expensive and tends to leave you with a heap of unused coins and notes. And using even debit cards abroad incurs exchange fees. It would be genuinely useful to be able to go abroad and not even have to think about any of that, but instead just pay by phone in bitcoin.

It speaketh

Agreed. Bitcoin is intended to be used as online payment system, like paypal or neteller, but without chargeback issues and hassle for identification. Does anybody question whether paypal overtake fiat  ???

You can't compare paypal and bitcoin.


Bitcoin is like a currency, like USD or EUR you can use bitcoins to buy stuff online.
Paypal is like VISA or MASTERCARD, just a way to spend dollars or euros. You can also use cash.


That is why some people wants to make bitcoin ATM, and so on.

Yes you make some good points but you also exaggerate and focus on extremes...black and white thinking.  Instead of saying "Bitcoin will only grow about 2% a year from now on", you say "BTC will never extend more" which of course is utter and total nonsense.  This lazy approach and disregard for reality makes your case much weaker, all around.

I dont get you. I think about bitcoin as a global payment system, where no govt can set the rulez. It is like torrent, from people to people, no regulations necessary

Exactly the contrary is the case. Bitcoin eliminates scam if used properly.
How many vendors are payed with stolen credit cards ?
The security can be increased even more with Namecoin identity systems where the vendor is going through an identification and his public key and other details are stored in an id/vendor
http://dot-bit.bit/Namespace:Identity

Just try to transfer 12.000 USD in another country and you will be happy if it will arrive in 1 week and the costs will be much more. If it will not arrive or will be confiscated you will see how convenient it is to try to get it back and give declarations.
If you mean an instant order of a product or service on the internet that is possible with BTC also.After you clicked transfer BTC from you wallet in a half of minute your order will be confirmed.

Bitcoin is not USD and not EUR. Gold prices are also changing and still many people like it and if the USD will collapse then it will be also not so stable.
But you can put also a ring made of aluminum on your finger instead of gold so that keeps better its price.

Actually whenever my credit card information was stolen or hacked or whatever, i don't want to know, it happened couple times, bank gladly deleted those transactions from my balance (it takes me couple minutes to call) and I got new card on second day for free. Now try to do this with your wallet.

Also I would like anybody to find a deal for me: I want to buy new TV and have free additional one year warranty as credit cards gives me.

Namecoin identity systems will remove the most attractive feature of bitcoin  - inability find the owner.
 

Funny. I was also scammed with my credit card and I had to wait 2 hours on the phone to find finally found that my bank don't give a shit. I lost my money and now I'm using bitcoin because of that. I guess you was more lucky than me.

I don't know where you are, probably Russia or North Korea (I am not sure North Korea citizens use credit cards though).
First time card was scammed or whatever happened, my bank actually called me about suspicious transactions. Second time I called them and it took if not two minutes, but not much more. They apologize and fixed it right away.
 

Nope, Canada

While all of these reasons are definite existing problems, many of them will disappear with greater adoption.

Whether BTC succeeds, it strikes me as inevitable that we will eventually use digital currencies.

I can agree that digital currencies have very important plus, it is inability to print it again and again.
But governments not exactly want it, they probably WANT TO HAVE ABILITY TO PRINT IT MORE AND MORE IF NEEDED.
Also, no government in the world will accept currency with no ability to secure transactions, it is just absurd. This exactly will be huge obstacle to "greater adoption".
So bitcoin will probably grow, but mostly for use on black markets or whenever people want to hide their identity, so basically for shady markets.

It will only slow down greater adoption. That's not gonna stop anything in the long run though.
With bitcoin, central banks are now becoming totally useless. No matter how hard they will try, they will remain much more irrelevant for the future of payments.  
The monetary system behind bitcoin is rock solid, the actual debt based monetary system from the fractional reserve is completely flawed. It's only a matter of time before the second one will crash and burn by itself. But during that time, people won't baillout the banks anymore.

I don't think banks are evil, just the people that RUN the banks! :o

It will remove only if both agree and this feature is needed. If you want to buy a house with BTC and you want to live in it you are anyway not anonymous so it wont take away your anonymity.
If you buy something where you need to be anonymous you don't use Namecoin identity.

I don't think Namecoin does what you describe. Identifying using a namecoin address is about as convincing as identifying with a Bitcoin address. What namecoin brings to the table is irrevocable, hijack resistant domain names.


That url is broken even after I replace .bit with .net :P

Edit: Plus with .onion records, DNS servers no longer need a public IP address.

I don't get your point. How could bitcoin eliminates scam? (sic).
How many vendors are payed with stolen credit cards? => How many vendors are payed with stolen/compromised btc wallets?

if your wallet is stolen then you cannot do any thing just have some red signals like me in your trust and try to do some better for you and never try to lend from here

The OP risks a logical fallacy in implicitly defining "everyday" transactions as ones that support his thesis and defining "non-everyday" transactions as those that don't.

Also, on the Iran example from earlier. It is a fact that Iran and Turkey have been using gold imports shuttled through Dubai to fund natural gas transfers.
Here is just one story about it: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/29/turkey-iran-sanctions-idUSL5N0CL0UK20130329
This implies that there are lots of "non-everyday" funding needs that are being handled by non-traditional financing means.  There is a role here for bitcoin.

Here's an everyday situation: At the gas station last night there was a $0.16 price differential between cash and credit. I had the cash but knew that I needed it in the morning. So I spent the cash for gas to get the savings then had to make an extra trip to find an ATM (at my bank to avoid the $3 ATM charge). Had there been an easy, electronic cash equivalent option -- like bitcoin could have provided, I would have taken it.

His argument is like saying in the late 70's that email is at it's maximum extension because it can't send pictures, you can't sign legal documents with it and the USPS is so cheap and easy.
Yes there is work to be done to bitcoin, and it's slowly getting done.

Actually, they can go back to what they are supposed to (and still think they do, Bernanke recently belittered yen for not being stable, that was before abenomics). They can have a stash of bitcoins ready in the event of a disaster or political instability scaring off foreign investors.

I think he is actually right, while activists in this forum seem to think that most people in the world spend all time on SR or feeling frustrated because they cannot send money to Iran and North Korea... the OP has the sensible approach of defining "everyday transactions" the ones that most of the people in the world do most of the time. That is buying bread and gas, paying bills and rent, and so on. Last time I checked, bitcoin gives absolutely no advantage over a debit/credit card.

I'm a lot more concerned that bitcoin will never become mainstream because "normal people" will move en mass to whatever digital coin amazon or google will come out, backed by recognised governments. Try to explain to Simple Joe why bitcoin is better...

I disagree. Even if we never reach the average consumer, there are vectors of growth on the online goods (games, services, digital media), the micropayment arena, the transfer of money abroad (Western Union) and accumulation of wealth (if only 1% of the population put 1% of their savings in btc). They key property here is "built-in scarcity"

Come on, there is even a 100x bigger market (than btc) for paintings and sculptures just because they are scarce, if it is for the use of them a good copy would be as good as the original.

But if you feel that this experiment has failed, please by all means, sell.

That is a pretty poor analogy.
Paintings and sculture are unique and indivisible.
BTC is neither.
One BTC is just like any other, and they can be subdivided at will.

Where did I define those 2 different types of transactions? Lol.

(bold added by me)


The "free additional one year warranty" isn't free at all, but rather a service that is paid for through fees.  Would a mature bitcoin infrastructure have similar offerings?  It is difficult to say.  But would you want it to?  Consider that the market value for an extended warranty on a TV is probably anywhere from $40 to $80.  (These numbers are just for illustration)  And the credit card company is offering you a "free" warranty.  Now consider that they are paying for this through transaction and discount fees to merchants and that the merchants have in turn raised their prices accordingly.  Some people buy several TVs in a year.  So all of your credit card purchases for gas, groceries, clothes, and anything else that doesn't come with a perk are helping to buy those warranties for other people.  Wouldn't you rather just have lower prices on all of your purchases and then decide when you want to spend the money for an extended warranty?

But that's really commentary on the credit card infrastructure.  After all MasterCard is not a currency, but rather it is a highbred credit and payment mechanism.  And although electronic currency can replace credit card use for some transactions, it's surely not going to kill them.  Were bitcoin to become widely accepted, there is no reason credit card companies wouldn't allow transactions in bitcoin.  People will still need short term credit.  Other people will still like paying with a credit card for all of the reasons stated earlier in this thread.  And all of the purchase assurances and "free" services would work pretty much the same way.

In short, saying that bitcoin cannot replace credit cards is a red herring.  (As is saying that bitcoin is better than credit cards)

But you don't get any advantage by using bitcoins.
You can get a free credit card, and under conditions, you can have free benefit like he said about insurance...

It depends on the bank, but it might be totally free of charge if he deposits 1000 usd per month in his bank account for instance.

Proof that bitcoin is flawed:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=293291.0



::)

I'm sure there was never any theft of dollars anywhere ::)

First, as I noted at the end of my previous post, comparing bitcoin and credit cards doesn't make sense.  Bitcoin is a currency like dollars or euros.  Credit cards are a combination of a credit and a payment system that facilitate the borrowing and paying of any currency a credit card issuer chooses to work with.  So if and when bitcoin is more widely used we will see credit card companies allow for transactions in bitcoin just as they do for dollars, euros, yen, and every other currency.

Second, your "free" credit card and all of the other credit card services are not free.  The "free" credit cards and the services are paid for by the fees charged to merchants.  Every transaction comes with a flat transaction fee (45 cents for example) as well as a "discount" percentage.  The discount refers to a percentage that the card issuer is going to take from the transaction.  Discount rates that are charged to merchants can range from 2% to 5%.  Probably more in some cases.  The discount rate is determined in part by the credit worthiness of the card holder, whether the card holder pays an annual fee (it is higher for no-fee cards), whether or not it is a rewards card, and the volume of transactions for the merchant.  The merchant has no way of knowing what the discount will be at the time of the transaction.  For example, merchants can incur as much as a 4% or 5% "discount" rate for most rewards cards.

Historically credit card companies have forbidden merchants from offering different prices to customers that pay with cash versus those that pay with credit cards.  So merchants that take credit cards increase their prices to everyone to make up for these fees.  Laws have recently changed (at least in the U.S.) that prevent CC companies from using this restriction, but after 4 years very few merchants have changed their pricing to reflect it.  The net result of credit card pervasiveness is that we all pay 3% to 4% more for nearly everything we buy [edit]regardless of whether or not we use a credit card[/edit].  That money goes to the credit card processors and companies (which are usually lumped into the category of "banks").

On internet + that could never be tracked down and refunded? No, never.

Even better would be to go to a BTC ATM on arrival in another country, get your local cash.  On departure any cash not spent put back in BTC ATM, too easy.

And the ATM provider isn't going to charge you any fees for this privilege?
Why should it be any cheaper than changing USD<->local?

I am talking about a Bitcoin ATM, not a bank ATM.

If you want to carry a bag of cash and change on arrival that is your choice, not very secure.

Right, which I'm assuming you mean something that will take BTC from your account, and give you local (fiat) money?
Why would they charge you any less in fees and conversion spread than an existing ATM machine would?

suuure....
no online thief ever uncatched.
nobody ever lost a single dollar on e.g. paypal, or other services...

And even if it's refunded somebody has to pay for it (usually all the customers in form of fees), when th thief isn't catched or already used it up.
You could have a system like this with Bitcoin, too.

Have you not seen the BTC ATM?  Link below.

I assume the fees would be normal BTC fees.

https://bitcoinatm.com/

So they aren't going to charge anything at all for having to dispense and collect the fiat notes?
They are going to pay the cost of installing/maintaining/renting space for the ATMs themselves?
They are going to bear the cost of converting fiat to/from Bitcoin themselves?
That seems ... unlikely.

Sometimes fees are charged not because of evil bankers, but because things actually cost money to do.

In 2012 people said that bitcoin was about to die. Right now it looks like it is almost impossible for it not to expand more. Here are reasons why:

1) Money Laundry - Corrupt governments: When you think in money laundry, the biggest players are third world corrupt governments. Even at the end of the world, their way of working and moving money is becoming more difficult. If any of those chooses to move it using btc the price will explode. But for that to happen we need a much bigger depth.

2) Normal users from countries that currency is restricted: Some normal people all around the world are limited in how to spend their money / forbidden to buy foreign currencies. Bitcoin solves that for them.

3) Travel money: Debit cards in multiple currencies are being emitted with low-cost ways to charge them threw bitcoins. Sometimes it is cheaper to change your currency to bitcoins and then to a foreign currency instead of having your bank do the conversion.

I'm sure I can keep on. But normal people live all over the world and in a completely different world than yours, where bitcoin provides a solution that to problems you won't even imagine and never experienced. Its use is spreading on a daily basis in such countries. The reason it doesn't explode is fear. If it becomes a low-risk investment more and more people will use it. That will come with time and price stability. If you think that every person in every country lives the same way than in yours there is no point in continuing this conversation.

About point 4 - Investing

OP do not consider that the financial world is looking very closely to alternatives like bitcoin because they now know that the price of almost everything (specially gold) is completely rigged.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/everything-is-rigged-the-biggest-financial-scandal-yet-20130425

Because (1) there's a lack of the kind of overhead that's present in the banking industry, (2) there's much less infrastructure needed to $upport, and (3) it's not being provided by an industry used to bailouts and special privileges.

I fully expect extra charges to be incurred by using a bitcoin ATM. I also fully expect that if those charges exceed normal bank charges, it will only be because banks are involved and are adding their fees into the cost. If they're uninvolved, I fully expect the charges to be less than that of your typical bank.

All that said, I also believe banks + bitcoin will be a future option.

There is a difference between:
(1) You got robbed by someone who break into your house without any proof, and stole 100 euros.
and (2) you walked in the street, and someone stole you 100 euros out of your pocket in front of a policeman who arrested him.


In the second case, you should be refunded immediately.
If the policeman told you "I am sorry, the transaction (stealing) is irreversible, I can't do shit". It is flawled.



Eventually some stupid people got scammed with paypal (probably less than with btc considering paypal safer). But they could open a dispute, they know something about the thief. They can go to the police.


And you don't have any fees for using a bank. That's not like a bitcoin transaction. My credit card and all operations are free of charge. 

Yes. Coz banks use ur money to get more money. For Bitcoin this doesn't work.

omg, such a liar

why such a liar please explain this I believe its right

I have no idea where you live, but I have never seen in my whole life anyone paying less by cash.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/2011/06/23/news/economy/spr_stimulus_oil_prices/getty-gas-cash-credit.jc.top.jpg

Do you live in an alternate universe?

I first noticed a gas station (not this chain) offering this deal in Clarksville, Tennessee recently.

Discounts for cash exist, in a number of areas (think: buying a used car,) and they can be significant.

I don't live in a crappy country, but in Europe.
Anyway, even if we suppose that it exists somewhere in the world, it is nothing compared to the advantages of the credit card, 0% loan, cashback and bonuses every time you use it, and so on.

Well, let's be honest, credit cards have advantages over bitcoin.

But cost isn't one of them, at least not collectively. It *can't* be. The consumers are paying for every benefit that credit cards provide. In fact, they're paying so much that the credit card companies can give all of those benefits and still make a hefty profit. And since bitcoin simply has fewer costs associated with it, there's no way that, collectively, bitcoin wouldn't be cheaper.

Credit card costs just aren't evenly distributed. So yes, if you're prudent and sharp, maybe you can come out ahead individually, even though it's probably a lot less of a gain than you might think. But that doesn't mean there aren't many people around you for whom credit cards are an expensive burden... not everyone can be sharp. (True, everyone *could* be prudent but I wouldn't hold my breath.)

I think it'll be interesting to see how the integration of bitcoin into M-Pesa turns out. That would be a true collective costs comparison.

I disagree.

If you are a homeless guy, maybe it will be kinda difficult to get a credit card for free ... But I don't think that you can have bitcoin easily if you are homeless.
If you got some money, all most banks give you free credit cards with lots of advantages if you deposit some money to them (like 1k euros). They have conditions, but why won't you do that? You will not lose money, it will stay safe, and you have nothing to do.


With bitcoins, you have to pay the fees, but your amount of bitcoins will never increase. You have disavantages, but no avantadge to use it. There is no proof that bitcoin value will rise in the future, and coins will be created every day since we all die.

Seems not
http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/09/bitcoin-homeless/

If you didn't, you should watch "THE AMERICAN DREAM FILM " the truth about American banks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMiN_i-uzpA&feature=share

Lol. Did not know about that :D

Okay cool so I have a post I can dust my canned responce off for.  Are you fucking seriously thinking straight OP? Do you realize what you have said. .. LoL! ! Hold on..... do you realize all money is this way?  I pay cash for almost everything I buy to avoid fees.  I still get taxed.  I make a payment with btc I pay a tax to the miners. .. But hey yeah if I buy from a guy on bitmit even in state I'm not going to pay the same tax.

News flash as well.  You can pay for drugs with anything.  Includes your mangina and your first born.  Actually let's just put all that illegal jargon in this para.  Laundering money. .. ever hear of green dot cards?  Small apple shit that adds up to huge amounts are cleaned hourly. You also mentioned scams... Do you read your local paper. 

http://etv10news.com/police-apprehend-fraud-suspect/

Oh hey... was it bitcoin he had taken?  Nope but just as easy in the name of scam right? 

.Do you see a pattern?  ALL money is hard boild bullshit.  You won't find anything less out there.  But what you are experienceing is life in a nutshell with crypto.  It takes all kinds to make this world work.  Good and bad.  The difference is we cannot become the judge and jury. 

What we can do is keep beating the concept of fair trade.  Trust and hell even the over looked fact that privacy is not a right. If you fuck up here you are Marked. In some cases that's pretty heavy shit and far worse then jail.  Imagine someone today scamming you for 0.1. Then a few years down the road shit changes for that person.  New life new job.  It might not happen for them if an employer was to look at the guys history and see's he has no quarter defrauding someone.

Think about it.  It's deeper then what you think it is

I pay every with CC to avoid fees, get cashback, be safe, and quick :)
There is no way on earth you would ever be able to do that with btc, mad bro?





Did you even ready OP?
Or are you lacking brain?

If you did not understand something, please free to chill a little bit and read it again after some time.

Paying with a cashback credit card gives you a 1-2% discount, but you won't avoid paying fees. The retailer has to pay those fees and the cashback premium. How do you suppose a retailer would go about recovering those fees?

I bought BTC about a month ago, and it is worth about 24% more now. That is about 14% "cashback" after my transaction costs (irreversible payments cost more to send).

By increasing prices for all customers, not just credit card customers.
Therefore it makes sense to use a credit card, as you pay the same increased price, but get the extra security and cashback.

No, just no. You sir, are an idiot. I mean this in the politest way possible. (OP)

CSB.

Its not as great as you make it sound, I can name lots of negatives to credit cards.  

#1 Chargebacks.  There is nothing worse than getting money, spending it, then some asshole decides he doesn't want to pay for it anymore and does a chargeback.  It happens even more often with internet only businesses, who pay higher fees to begin with, since they are not swiping the actual card.

#2 No control.  Once your card number is out there it is out there.  Tons of people get fraudulent activity all the time.  When this happens they shut down your card right away and not even you can access funds with it.  People do not like to be inconvenienced.  This actually happen to me recently, but it was with business check card, and now it is going to cost me money to not have my card, because certain things will not get paid this week.  Bitcoin puts you in control, there is no credit card fraud, because there is not a transaction that goes through unless you approve it by sending it, not the bank.

#3  Buying power.  There is no buying power in credit card, businesses take them because they have to, not cause they want to, it wasn't long ago you had to buy at least $10 worth to use it.  So you are paying more, this is why cash deals are usually for less.  Do you think this is because of fees?  No because its easier for the business and gives them cash flow.

As the poster in this thread said, Bitcoin has went up 24% in a month, this gives it even more buying power.  Businesses will not just be lowering the price you pay by fees, they can lower it even more because they may be able to make money on their money.  Not to mention if buyers hold on to theirs for a month it goes up 24% they can now purchase that much more.  It gives power to both sides, by cutting out the middle man, kinda like wal mart did, who is the biggest company in the world for the last I don't know how many years.


People like control and convenience, just look at 7/11.  Its very convenient to send something to someones wallet, you don't have to put in your billing, some dumb ass captcha on some crooked website that keeps reloading, not to mention risk putting all of your personal information on the net except your SS.

Some people just don't think things through, too worried about the minor details.

Just My2Cents  :P

 :-X

OP, your post reveals a solid lack of understanding of Bitcoin and finance in general. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but if you imagine it allows you to form "opinions" about either you're sorely mistaken. Perhaps the largest flaw in that morass of "ideas" you've got there is that Bitcoin should be used by Joe Schmoe Consumer. It shouldn't, and it won't be --largely because JSC, like you, either hasn't got the wherewithal to use it, or doesn't have the self-discipline to learn, or both.

This guy (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=303795.0)'s a convenient case in point.

Whether you can fix a problem of intelligence is arguable. If you're sufficiently convinced yours is the latter problem of self-discipline, however, the best course would be to read and learn, and then read more, to the point that when you bring theories it's not immediately clear that you've skipped over the bulk of the work.

It'll be arduous and it'll take a long time, but it's the only option if you're going to move forward (ducking out to play with something more comfortable is the other choice you can make, of course).

Did you post in the wrong topic or were you not able to understand my point?

LET ME QUOTE YOUR POST



1) FALSE. why? because bitcoin is the safest money there is... EVEN GOV can't touch a fully encrypted WALLET...

2) FALSE. why? because with smartphones on the rise... it will be the medium to send/pay btc from person to person...

3) FALSE. why? DO I EVEN HAVE TO COMPARE bank/merchant fees VERSUS BTC FEES? NOT TO MENTION TAXES that is being used to wage WAR in any country? THAT SHOULD BE VERY OBVIOUS!

4) FALSE. why? Can you send FIAT money from USA to IRAQ in a matter of SECONDS? GUESS WHAT... IN BITCOIN YOU CAN!!!

5) TRUE. but it only means it is a LEGIT CURRENCY... LIKE ALL CURRENCY... it GOES UP and DOWN... depending on SUPPLY/DEMAND

6) FALSE. why? because the term is wrong... majority of people don't know what it is yet... but if they KNOW WHAT IT IS... i am 100% they will trust it... IMAGINE GOV can't even touch DPRs WALLET...? Versus any money you hide/put in a vault and the GOV taking it?

7) This is a repeat... already covered in my #3 reply... look up...



CONCLUSION....

PAPER MONEY WILL BECOME A TOILET PAPER SOON... :D

I am all for BTC but one thing keeps nagging away

If 4 billion people are poor and have no access to computers and phones how do they pay for goods and services if


PAPER MONEY WILL BECOME A TOILET PAPER SOON..


what am i missing for all these users to access digital currency.

It would be good to hear peoples thoughts on this...

I think there are like 6 billion phones for 7 billion people? ... or something like that.

But no way 6 billion people have phone. And only small %, maybe 20% of phones are connected to internet.

and one thing to me is when theres no more bitcoin to mine and theres only 21 M bitcoin , people will go for alt coin money laudering and everything on the thread is never end and always will be use . alt coin is the way out now

Once they're no more BTC to mine, miners will still get the transaction fees.

lets give google to take care of that 4billion peoples which dont have computer/network to work with..
http://www.google.com/loon/

I don't think bitcoin will replace fiat in the physical world at this decade. Bitcoin is designed for internet transactions, and it can outperform credit card in the scenarios we do not imagine before.
There are a large room for existing internet economic activity. The Long Tail of existing online economic activities are micro-payments.
Why do we need to become a member before getting any paid service form the website? If we want to see a movie in a physical world, we will go to movie theater and give them cash. But it is impractical in providing pay-per-view movie service for website. The transaction cost of credit card are too high, and bank won't accept the micro-payment. You need to become a member of the website, and then pay a quite a few dollars to website to get the credit point for subsequently watching. It is not convenient. Many people give up getting the paid content because it is vexing, not lack of money. Following are the proposed killer app of bitcoin:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=324167.0
Pay per download:
There are many file-sharing websites. When I want to get a high speed download, however, I often need to become an one-month member. It is vexing, and I only want to download "this file". Bitcoin will be a micropayment system that helping client get one-time high-speed downloading. The website only need to show a bitcoin address or QR code for this download. Or, the website calls the bitcoin-qt API for payment. The amount of money need to be sent are tiny, maybe 0.0002BTC. I think it help file-sharing website increase their revenue. There are a large amount of people unwilling become the member of file-sharing sites, but willing to pay for one-time high-speed downloading.
Pay for priority:
In P2P file sharing networks, there are many leechers, although there are many mechanisms to prevent this problem. I consider that we could incorporate an automatic micropayment agent. If you want to get a file faster, you must pay for it. You can set how many bitcoins you want to pay. The agent will negotiate to other agents to get the higher priority in their downloading queue. It still possible to download without fee and maybe compatible to existing P2P file-sharing software. Users can make benefit by file-sharing that could encourage users increasing their uploading speed and then increasing downloading speed in the P2P network.
Pay per surf:
Fon is a peer-servicing WiFi network. However, it need specific hardware, and it also need to become a member to use their WiFi network. I think there is a way to sell your WiFi service automatically for anyone who has bitcoin. We could modified opneWRT(a popular AP firmware) firmware which is able to show owner's bitcoin address. After payment, openWRT check transaction by viewing blockchain on internet. Finally, AP provides WiFi service to this client. Moreover, we could devise a smartphone App which can find, authenticate and transact automatically. It means smart phone could roam around APs in the city without user's intervention.
Pay per view:
There are forums showing paid content to only paid members. I think it could simplified by using bitcoin. The viewers doesn't need to register, but send bitcoins to specific address for viewing paid content. This idea is also able to be applied to online music, movie, video for one-time viewing.

I consider automatic Micro-payment agent and pay-per-use service model will create a large market only supported by bitcoin. I predict the micro-payment market should be larger than the credit card market in the internet.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=326937.0

1.4 million usd stolen. Nothing to do about it.
::)

Remind us again what price you sold out at?

want to take a 10 btc bet about that?


[EDIT] I also bet you are french ( or at least you mother/father), i know them far too well...

BOOM!  ;D

I disagree, the money you get from a bank, which we know as interest, is nothing more than compensating your funds for inflation + 0.01% actual interest.
There are exchanges which give you more than 5 % interest on your coins (I beleve it was MCXNow), so thats not really an advantage of fiat, more for Bitcoin.

Bitcoin will always extend, but maybe not in the exponential terms we are seeing today.
Aswell, this topic should be stickied somewhere as it is very well done and thorough!
However, I do agreee with you to some extent, bitcoin may one day crash unsuspectingly.

USD means nothing...

that can be 999 million USD stolen... which means btc is already on the moon and still going to MARS!..

sorry for ur loss op...

btc will extend more... and A LOT MORE.... btcchina was took down... and BTC IS STILL @ ~300USD...

BTC IS JUST STARTING