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Economy => Trading Discussion => Topic started by: Anonymous on January 20, 2011, 01:54:36 AM



Title: [closed] Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Anonymous on January 20, 2011, 01:54:36 AM
Topic locked .



Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: FreeMoney on January 20, 2011, 02:44:02 AM
I am interested in this.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Anonymous on January 20, 2011, 03:12:18 AM
Freemoney are you on irc ?


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: FreeMoney on January 20, 2011, 04:16:56 AM
Freemoney are you on irc ?

I have to get away from this damn machine for a while, I'll try to get on when I inevitably come back in a few hours.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Anonymous on January 20, 2011, 04:35:30 AM
Freemoney are you on irc ?

I have to get away from this damn machine for a while, I'll try to get on when I inevitably come back in a few hours.

Take as much time as you need. I will likely be at work when you return however we might have a wiki up by then.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: mizerydearia on January 20, 2011, 04:58:59 AM
I propose we establish an acronym: b ??? i ??? t ??? c ??? o ??? i ??? n ??? d ???  Suggestions?

Tiny list of possible words:
bitcoind
is
the
club, co-op, collective, community
of
incredible, investment
new, not
daemon, dreams, dwarves


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Anonymous on January 20, 2011, 05:08:38 AM
bitcoind
is
te
co-op
of
incredible
new
dreams

!


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: grondilu on January 20, 2011, 12:32:57 PM

I'm in the process of getting more user priviledges on freeshell.org.

Hopefully that should permit me to host my bitcoin stock exchange plateform.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Anonymous on January 20, 2011, 04:07:12 PM

I'm in the process of getting more user priviledges on freeshell.org.

Hopefully that should permit me to host my bitcoin stock exchange plateform.


Excellent.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: grondilu on January 20, 2011, 05:01:02 PM
Excellent.

Let me also remind everyone that the source code is already available.

http://github.com/grondilu/bitcoin-bash-tools

So if anyone wants to host it himself, please feel free to do so.

I want this stuff to exist, whether it is me or anyone else who host it doesn't matter much.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: jwalck on January 22, 2011, 01:20:49 AM
To be honest, the miner rig will draw quite a bit of current. Did you consider that bitcoins get harder/less profitable to generate and electricity prices are going up? What's the current situation? And if it is profitable right now, for how long will it be before you'll save money by keeping those servers offline?

Electricity is a big cost for running servers, way above bandwidth in normal situations and not far from the cost for the hardware over its life-cycle.

If it lasts long enough to pay for the hardware, I guess go for it.:)


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Anonymous on January 22, 2011, 01:54:36 AM
To be honest, the miner rig will draw quite a bit of current. Did you consider that bitcoins get harder/less profitable to generate and electricity prices are going up? What's the current situation? And if it is profitable right now, for how long will it be before you'll save money by keeping those servers offline?

Electricity is a big cost for running servers, way above bandwidth in normal situations and not far from the cost for the hardware over its life-cycle.

If it lasts long enough to pay for the hardware, I guess go for it.:)


It has been modified so that the  miner will be a client and the pool server will be on a vps somewhere else. This makes it a lot easier to manage.



Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: jwalck on January 22, 2011, 02:02:42 AM
To be honest, the miner rig will draw quite a bit of current. Did you consider that bitcoins get harder/less profitable to generate and electricity prices are going up? What's the current situation? And if it is profitable right now, for how long will it be before you'll save money by keeping those servers offline?

Electricity is a big cost for running servers, way above bandwidth in normal situations and not far from the cost for the hardware over its life-cycle.

If it lasts long enough to pay for the hardware, I guess go for it.:)


It has been modified so that the  miner will be a client and the pool server will be on a vps somewhere else. This makes it a lot easier to manage.

Yep, I know the arrangement. Bad wording from my part, my question was much simpler. The mining rigs draw electricity for a cost that now or at some later time could be equal to or more than the coins generated. What then?


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Anonymous on January 22, 2011, 02:27:50 AM
To be honest, the miner rig will draw quite a bit of current. Did you consider that bitcoins get harder/less profitable to generate and electricity prices are going up? What's the current situation? And if it is profitable right now, for how long will it be before you'll save money by keeping those servers offline?

Electricity is a big cost for running servers, way above bandwidth in normal situations and not far from the cost for the hardware over its life-cycle.

If it lasts long enough to pay for the hardware, I guess go for it.:)


It has been modified so that the  miner will be a client and the pool server will be on a vps somewhere else. This makes it a lot easier to manage.

Yep, I know the arrangement. Bad wording from my part, my question was much simpler. The mining rigs draw electricity for a cost that now or at some later time could be equal to or more than the coins generated. What then?

There is nothing stopping us renting out the cluster for uses other than bitcoin mining. Corporations and Scientific projects etc need hashing power and are willing to pay for it. In between those contracts bitcoin mining would take place. Think Big!    :)


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: mizerydearia on January 22, 2011, 02:31:09 AM
There is nothing stopping us renting out the cluster for uses other than bitcoin mining. Corporations and Scientific projects etc need hashing power and are willing to pay for it. In between those contracts bitcoin mining would take place. Think Big!    :)

Perhaps the payment could be handled in bitcoins.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Anonymous on January 22, 2011, 02:41:05 AM
There is nothing stopping us renting out the cluster for uses other than bitcoin mining. Corporations and Scientific projects etc need hashing power and are willing to pay for it. In between those contracts bitcoin mining would take place. Think Big!    :)

Perhaps the payment could be handled in bitcoins.

Of course  :)

I think that would promote bitcoin particularly to the scientific community.




Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Cdecker on January 22, 2011, 01:43:34 PM
What kind of ROI can one expect from this? Or is this purely a way to stabilize the network by throwing yet another cluster at it? If it's the latter I'd say let's create multiple small ones instead of a central one that increases vulnerability.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Nefario on January 22, 2011, 02:06:59 PM
What kind of ROI can one expect from this? Or is this purely a way to stabilize the network by throwing yet another cluster at it? If it's the latter I'd say let's create multiple small ones instead of a central one that increases vulnerability.

At 350btc investment from 100 people we should have our investment back in three to four months in btc and then it's all profit less running costs from there. That is my guess anyway.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: mizerydearia on January 22, 2011, 02:16:08 PM
This club could benefit from further assistance with preparing a website to outline/detail the ideas and efforts of this community.  Would anyone like to volunteer?


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Anonymous on January 23, 2011, 02:57:28 AM
What kind of ROI can one expect from this? Or is this purely a way to stabilize the network by throwing yet another cluster at it? If it's the latter I'd say let's create multiple small ones instead of a central one that increases vulnerability.

That is one of the benefits. My thinking is that there could be clusters in many different countries or states eventually as enough bitcoins are produced to build the next cluster.

This is also where the pool comes in ....





Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Anonymous on January 23, 2011, 03:01:06 AM
What kind of ROI can one expect from this? Or is this purely a way to stabilize the network by throwing yet another cluster at it? If it's the latter I'd say let's create multiple small ones instead of a central one that increases vulnerability.

At 350btc investment from 100 people we should have our investment back in three to four months in btc and then it's all profit less running costs from there. That is my guess anyway.

Yes.
or

50 people 700btc


 :D


or differing levels of investment in which case profits would be divided depending on percentage of investment compared to the entire investment.




Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Anonymous on January 23, 2011, 05:12:46 AM
This club could benefit from further assistance with preparing a website to outline/detail the ideas and efforts of this community.  Would anyone like to volunteer?


http://humanstxt.org/ (http://humanstxt.org/)

I quite like the way they set that page up.

Im working on a basic prospectus for the project at the moment.



Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Vinnie on January 24, 2011, 07:10:14 AM
Noagenda contacted me about financial advise for this startup.

From an accounting standpoint, my intial thoughts are to have a minimum of three officers/employees:

1. Hardware operator - physically controls rig and, with prior approval of other officers, spends money on assets and expenses. Also makes regular "deposits" to the Treasurer.
2. Treasure - controls the dispersal of funds for expenses, investment in assets (hardware) and payments to shareholders. Dispenses funds only upon approval of other officers. Approves funds dispersals with a public key signature.
3. Accountant - maintains the entity's books, produces monthly, quarterly, and annual financial statements. Reviews back up documentation for expenses and fund dispersals. Approves funds dispersals with a public key signature.

This division of authority and responsibility makes it more difficult for fraud to occur, and will give potential investors ease of mind. My understanding is that blockchainexplorer allows for verification of where funds are located. This can be used by the officers and shareholders to verify the existence of the BTC. The weaknesses in the control of funds are: the Treasurer making off with the money or the operator submitting fake expenses that then go into his pocket. The accountant does not control the funds or the spending of money, so is less likely to commit fraud unless he is involved with one of the other two in covering it up.

Initially I think what is needed is:

  • A Capital Budget - expected cash outflows (when and how much and for what) and expected cash inflows (when and from where and how much, most likely will be mining revenue and investment capital.) The capital budget tells us when we will need to have cash to pay our bills
  • Budgeted Financial Statements - What will the balance sheet likely look like on day one? Expected revenue over the year? Etc.
  • Charter laying out directors, officers to be hired, etc. Where incorporation is occurring (if at all?)

I'd love to fulfill the role of the Accountant. To get a better idea of what I would do this work for, I'd like to know the expected number of transactions per month. In other words, paying the electric bill will happen at least once a month. Revenue will be "swept" into the account controlled by the Treasurer on a regular basis. Hardware will be purchased on a less regular basis. Etc. etc. Off the top of my head I don't imagine a $10,000 net worth operation taking up too much of my time. Oh yeah.... I work for bitcoins :)


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Vinnie on January 24, 2011, 07:29:59 AM
OK, I just saw the thing about the miner being a client and the server on a "vps." I take this to mean that the bitcoin software is not being run off the rigs that are doing the computing? This makes it easier for internal controls on the cash. The treasurer could have the money go directly to the account under his control and others could monitor.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: ColdHardMetal on January 24, 2011, 07:38:14 AM
After about a month of running my GPU for mining I got my new power bill today. As a result I'm even more interested in this project than I was before as it just doesn't make sense for me to continue mining personally at the current BTC spot rate.

I would like to volunteer for the Treasurer role as that's an area I've worked in before. I do appreciate that I haven't been around this community for long, and if it makes some participants uncomfortable placing me in that position no offense will be taken.

I can also help with drafting any Charter style documents or working up spreadsheet projections for the financial end. Again those are both areas I've worked in before and are also pretty much what my Uni background is built around.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Nefario on January 24, 2011, 09:27:16 AM
Just pricing a mining rig with 4x ATI 5970 cards comes in at around $3000(prices are from newegg, and I checked my own hardware market where I am and the prices work out about the same). This is not that much, thats 730btc per person for 10 people at mtgox current rates of exchange.

We need to get started ASAP to take advantage before the block difficulty increases.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: ColdHardMetal on January 24, 2011, 10:45:22 AM
Okay, I'm working on a Charter/bylaws type document right now. In addition to the positions outlined by Vinnie I think there needs to be a fourth one, that being a Secretary type position which is responsible for keeping track of the Share registry, what resolutions have been made and voted on and the results, and other stuff like that.

That being said I am withdrawing my name from consideration as Treasurer and putting myself out there for the Secretary position.

I'll have a document done later today outlining a possible structure for this group, the roles of each position etc. I've written things like this before so it shouldn't take me to long, then I'll post it for discussion and we can decide if its suitable for what people have in mind.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: ColdHardMetal on January 24, 2011, 12:24:07 PM
I've completed a draft version of some potential bylaws for this organization. It's in MS Word because that's what I use. I tried to attach it to this message but the forum said the attachment folder is full, so you can download it here: http://www.mediafire.com/?l9xv43rca3jtdng (http://www.mediafire.com/?l9xv43rca3jtdng)


I'll try and paste a copy into the next post but I don't know how the formatting will hold up. ****** = Highlighting found in the word doc.

Please feel free to comment, suggest changes, modifications, additions, or just reject it outright lol.

This might seem overly complicated at first, but when you start involving money something like this really is the best approach to getting organized. This way everyone is clear on what each participants responsibilities, rights, and obligations are right from the start and it can save a lot of headaches down the road.

I would ask that if you do suggest a change that you please reference the Part and Section #s as it makes the development process way easier when everyone knows what everyone else is talking about. Having been through this before, it gets messy quick otherwise.

Anything highlighted in Green needs discussion.




Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: ColdHardMetal on January 24, 2011, 12:24:48 PM
Format is kind of messed up. I'd recommend the Word doc from the last post.


Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club Bylaws

January 24, 2011
Draft version 1.0

Part 1 - Interpretation

1.   In these Bylaws;

Bitcoin(s)   *******needs something here but tough to sum up in a sentence;    

Bylaw(s)   refers to this document and appropriate sections therein;

Club    refers to the Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club governed by these Bylaws;

Officer(s)   refers the individual(s) voted into positions in accordance with  Section 5;

Forum   refers to the online forum located at bitcoind.org/forum; ********(this is included as I'm assuming we will have some central place for our discussions to happen)

Shareholder(s)   all persons satisfying the conditions of Section 3.a;



Part 2 - Purpose

1.   The purpose of this document is to codify the governing bylaws of an organization established for the purposes of gathering funds for investment in the generation of Bitcoins.



Part 3 - Shareholders

1.   A person shall be considered to be a Shareholder if they contribute *******XXX BTC or equivalent in other currencies for each share the desire to purchase;

2.   A Shareholder is accorded the following rights and privileges;
a.   An equal vote in the Club's decision making process for each share owned as outlined in Part 4, and
b.   The right to put forth motions requiring Shareholder votes.


Part 4 - Voting

1.   A vote on a motion put forth by a Shareholder shall be required to determine the Club's activities;

2.   A Shareholder vote shall be required to modify these bylaws;

3.   A Shareholder may allow another Shareholder to cast their vote by proxy;
a.   *********Proxy votes shall be verified by some kind of crypto signature thingy
4.   A minimum total of 50% + 1 vote, of votes cast within predetermined timeframes for each motion, is needed for the Club to be required to abide by any decision arising from the motion being voted on;
5.   ******Votes shall be tallied by process X over timeframe Y
a.   *******Maybe just a FORUM poll is enough to satisfy this process requirement


Part 5 - Officers

1.   The following Officer positions shall be established;

a.   Hardware Operator(s);
i.   Duties to include;
1.   Physical maintenance of the Club's hardware, including but not limited to;
a.   Purchasing,
b.   Installation, and
c.   Payment of ongoing expenses.
2.   Transfer to the Treasurer;
a.   Copies of all receipts related to expenditures made on behalf of the Club;
b.   BTC generated by the Club's hardware;
3.   Transfer to the Accountant;
a.   Copies of all receipts related to expenditures made on behalf of the Club;

ii.   Treasurer;
1.   Duties to include;
a.   Control of funds to be collected and/or dispersed as determined by motions voted on by the Club, including but not limited to;
i.   Share purchases;
ii.   Expenses for purchase and maintenance of the Club's hardware;
iii.   Payments to Shareholders
b.   Approval of fund dispersals via Public Key Signature
c.   Transfer to the Accountant;
i.   All records related to collection and disbursement of funds;


iii.   Accountant;
1.   Duties to include;
a.   Maintenance of the Club's financial records,
b.   Approval of fund dispersals via Public Key Signature,
c.   Preparation of monthly, quarterly, and annual financial statements, and
d.   Review of all records related to collection and disbursement of funds.

iv.   Secretary;
1.   Duties to include;
a.   Maintenance of the Club's Shareholders registry and Shareholder contact information,
b.   Advise Shareholders of upcoming votes and deadlines,
c.   Maintenance of these Bylaws,
d.   Maintain a record of all motions made and voted on, and results of those votes,
e.   Preparation of monthly reports related to the Club's progress on passed motions, and
f.   Administration of the voting process as outlined in Part 4.

d.   Officers shall be appointed and removed via a resolution voted on as per the process outlined in Part 4;


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: mizerydearia on January 24, 2011, 12:30:36 PM
I've completed a draft version of some potential bylaws for this organization...

Why not post it to http://bitcoind.org/wiki or http://bitcoind.org/mediawiki ?


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: ColdHardMetal on January 24, 2011, 12:40:55 PM
I've completed a draft version of some potential bylaws for this organization...

Why not post it to http://bitcoind.org/wiki or http://bitcoind.org/mediawiki ?


I'd prefer to just keep discussion in one place. I also don't want people making changes on their own to the wiki version so I can keep the master updated properly.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Cdecker on January 24, 2011, 01:05:46 PM
Would be nice to create a basic framework for people to adopt, so we can create many groups distributed all over the world.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: grondilu on January 24, 2011, 01:14:29 PM
Would be nice to create a basic framework for people to adopt, so we can create many groups distributed all over the world.

I'm adding a feature that will allow anyone to add its own asset in my bitcoin asset exchange plateform.  I'm too lazy to finish it today, but I promess it will be done for tomorrow.

http://grondilu.freeshell.org/brokerage.cgi


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Cdecker on January 24, 2011, 01:21:28 PM
I'm adding a feature that will allow anyone to add its own asset in my bitcoin asset exchange plateform.  I'm too lazy to finish it today, but I promess it will be done for tomorrow.

http://grondilu.freeshell.org/brokerage.cgi
Not my point, I'd like to see the setup being disclosed publicly and the legal framework to be open so that other groups can start and create their own pools, and not create just one additional huge pool. I'd love to create a local pool in Zurich actually, if someone's interested in joining :D


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Nefario on January 24, 2011, 01:31:48 PM
Would be nice to create a basic framework for people to adopt, so we can create many groups distributed all over the world.

Copy and Paste will do.

Recommend change to Part 5, a, i ;hardware operator duties should include the installation and maintainence of a hosts intrusion detection system, and to provide regular, updated copies of it's database to the members.

A HIDS is a system that has a database of checksums for all files in the system, easily allowing us to know if there have been any changes.

This is to allow members to examine which files have been changed by the operator, making software audits easier.

Also that the operator must, at the request of the club conduct an audit or allow the members (or chosen members, or a chosen professional) to audit the machine.

I also recommend the requirement that each member has an email for contact made available, and that all members get gpg and a gpg key pair, must share their public keys, sign each others public keys.

Voting can be done by forum, but each vote must be signed by the members key.

And that this document be signed, and any document of the future(that this document may become) also needs to be signed by all members. This will prevent any changes being made without the others permission.

I also want more restrictions place on the machine operator. There is the increased risk that once he has the money for the server he will just keep the money or keep the server. He must forfeit something to the other users that is of high value (maybe more bitcoins) as a kind of deposit that he may get back over time (for example after everyone has earned back their investment,I also have no problem with the operator being paid an extra btc bonus, once off after a certain time if they prove to be trustworthy).

These bitcoins can be kept in escrow or maybe a bitcoin wallet that is encrypted where the key is again encrypted and using secret sharing cryptography each member gets a piece of the key, and it would take all keys from all members to decrypt the wallet.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: mizerydearia on January 24, 2011, 01:45:36 PM
Maybe http://www.ossec.net/ ? #ossec on freenode


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Nefario on January 24, 2011, 02:05:41 PM
Maybe http://www.ossec.net/ ? #ossec on freenode

Exactly, although this is more of a technical requirement it does help with auditing especially for remote systems.

But I can't think of any way to prevent our machine operator running away with it. Maybe trust is the only option.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: ColdHardMetal on January 24, 2011, 02:09:41 PM
Recommend change to Part 5, a, i ;hardware operator duties should include the installation and maintainence of a hosts intrusion detection system, and to provide regular, updated copies of it's database to the members.

I'll add some language to that effect.

This is to allow members to examine which files have been changed by the operator, making software audits easier.

Also that the operator must, at the request of the club conduct an audit or allow the members (or chosen members, or a chosen professional) to audit the machine.

This as well.


I also recommend the requirement that each member has an email for contact made available, and that all members get gpg and a gpg key pair, must share their public keys, sign each others public keys.

I've got a few obligations to add to the Shareholders section and I'll include this.

Voting can be done by forum, but each vote must be signed by the members key.

That changes what I was envisioning a bit but shouldn't be a problem. It also makes a lot of sense. Verifying keys will become part of the voting process and Secretary duties as well.


And that this document be signed, and any document of the future(that this document may become) also needs to be signed by all members. This will prevent any changes being made without the others permission.

Again makes sense.

I also want more restrictions place on the machine operator. There is the increased risk that once he has the money for the server he will just keep the money or keep the server. He must forfeit something to the other users that is of high value (maybe more bitcoins) as a kind of deposit that he may get back over time (for example after everyone has earned back their investment,I also have no problem with the operator being paid an extra btc bonus, once off after a certain time if they prove to be trustworthy).


This needs discussion.


These bitcoins can be kept in escrow or maybe a bitcoin wallet that is encrypted where the key is again encrypted and using secret sharing cryptography each member gets a piece of the key, and it would take all keys from all members to decrypt the wallet.

Maybe not all members, but a certain quorum percentage if that's feasible. That way if someone disappears the whole thing doesn't become deadlocked.

Or maybe each person has 3 pieces of the puzzle, their own and 2 other members so more people would need to disappear for enough of the key to be gone. A touch less secure but also a bit more robust. I'm pretty out of my depth as far as the technical side of that goes so please ignore me if that's just nonsense.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Cdecker on January 24, 2011, 02:10:08 PM
Copy and Paste will do.

Recommend change to Part 5, a, i ;hardware operator duties should include the installation and maintainence of a hosts intrusion detection system, and to provide regular, updated copies of it's database to the members.

A HIDS is a system that has a database of checksums for all files in the system, easily allowing us to know if there have been any changes.

This is to allow members to examine which files have been changed by the operator, making software audits easier.

Also that the operator must, at the request of the club conduct an audit or allow the members (or chosen members, or a chosen professional) to audit the machine.

I also recommend the requirement that each member has an email for contact made available, and that all members get gpg and a gpg key pair, must share their public keys, sign each others public keys.

Voting can be done by forum, but each vote must be signed by the members key.

And that this document be signed, and any document of the future(that this document may become) also needs to be signed by all members. This will prevent any changes being made without the others permission.

I also want more restrictions place on the machine operator. There is the increased risk that once he has the money for the server he will just keep the money or keep the server. He must forfeit something to the other users that is of high value (maybe more bitcoins) as a kind of deposit that he may get back over time (for example after everyone has earned back their investment,I also have no problem with the operator being paid an extra btc bonus, once off after a certain time if they prove to be trustworthy).

These bitcoins can be kept in escrow or maybe a bitcoin wallet that is encrypted where the key is again encrypted and using secret sharing cryptography each member gets a piece of the key, and it would take all keys from all members to decrypt the wallet.
All the more reasons to create pools by meeting the people in real life and verifying them personally. Also the only machine that needs to be audited is the one holding the bitcoin client administering the pool, the miners themselfs can be torn down and reset up in a matter of minutes, no point in securing them too much. Using a PXE setup we can even go further and just plug the miners in and they'll install and run everything from a RAM drive (machine fails => reboots and registers at the master) making administration a breeze. Also regular payouts to the members decrease the temptation to take over the master. Monitoring hashing performance and adding statistical tools to make the system verifiable should suffice for the members, only a judge board has to know the technical details.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Nefario on January 24, 2011, 02:20:54 PM

All the more reasons to create pools by meeting the people in real life and verifying them personally. Also the only machine that needs to be audited is the one holding the bitcoin client administering the pool, the miners themselfs can be torn down and reset up in a matter of minutes, no point in securing them too much. Using a PXE setup we can even go further and just plug the miners in and they'll install and run everything from a RAM drive (machine fails => reboots and registers at the master) making administration a breeze. Also regular payouts to the members decrease the temptation to take over the master. Monitoring hashing performance and adding statistical tools to make the system verifiable should suffice for the members, only a judge board has to know the technical details.

I understand about not needing too much security on the client, meeting face to face wont work for this club, we are too distributed across the globe.

My only worry is the operator taking the mining machine for himself. But I think we should continue forward with this ASAP.

Who want's to be the machine operator? I will pay a bonus from my mined bitcoins to the person for this role.

ColdHardMetal why not go for the accountant role? Specialisation of labour.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Anonymous on January 25, 2011, 01:09:58 AM

All the more reasons to create pools by meeting the people in real life and verifying them personally. Also the only machine that needs to be audited is the one holding the bitcoin client administering the pool, the miners themselfs can be torn down and reset up in a matter of minutes, no point in securing them too much. Using a PXE setup we can even go further and just plug the miners in and they'll install and run everything from a RAM drive (machine fails => reboots and registers at the master) making administration a breeze. Also regular payouts to the members decrease the temptation to take over the master. Monitoring hashing performance and adding statistical tools to make the system verifiable should suffice for the members, only a judge board has to know the technical details.

I understand about not needing too much security on the client, meeting face to face wont work for this club, we are too distributed across the globe.

My only worry is the operator taking the mining machine for himself. But I think we should continue forward with this ASAP.

Who want's to be the machine operator? I will pay a bonus from my mined bitcoins to the person for this role.

ColdHardMetal why not go for the accountant role? Specialisation of labour.


Theymos has offered to host the machine for 25btc a month plus the power etc. Of course anyone can put their name forward when the time comes,  It is a meritocracy . :)

Have a look on the wiki where ArtForz has recommended  hardware which means each mining box would be $1500-$1800

We can stack them or theymos can get cheap aluminium shelving to store them on.


My only reservation when setting up similar operations is that the operator of the miner should be highly trusted particularly when members are located all over the globe.


I think once the hardware cost is covered more shares can be issued in more hardware. You would then be getting all the profits from the first miner while the second one covers its own costs etc...etc...

Its a self replicating thing....Once you have 2 clusters then you can have 4 the 8  then 16  :)


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Nefario on January 25, 2011, 02:01:11 AM
Quote from: ColdHardCash
Maybe not all members, but a certain quorum percentage if that's feasible. That way if someone disappears the whole thing doesn't become deadlocked.

This can be done no problem, if the secret is shared between for example, 10 people, we can set it so that 7 people are needed to unlock it (we can have this number higher or lower, it can be changed).



Theymos has offered to host the machine for 25btc a month plus the power etc.

Have a look on the wiki where ArtForz has recommended appropriate hardware which means each mining box would be $1500-$1800

We can stack them or theymos can get cheap aluminium shelving to store them on.


My only reservation when setting up similar operations is that the operator of the miner should be highly trusted....which theymos is.


I think once the hardware cost is covered more shares can be issued in more hardware. You would then be getting all the profits from the first miner while the second one covers its own costs etc...etc... ;D

Sorry I can't find any information about the hardware cost, is there a link, that cost seems very low.

I don't know Theymos, but if you say he is trustworthy then that is the best we have, so for this I am go.

About the issue of shares, I am working on the trading platform right now. I hope to have it ready (with enough functionality to issue shares at least) in time. If not then that is not a problem, we can use signed certificates. The platform will allow for payment of dividends, and voting by share owners.

I recommend we issue 8000 shares at 1btc each, this will mean that each of us can buy the shares we wish but it also means that we can tap the bitcoin market for people who only have a few bitcoins but wish to be able to use it. 1btc is a low barrier of entry and should make it easy for us to fill the hole if there are not enough high level investors (like us).

It also means we can jump start our market/trading platform which will be, over the long term if it is successful, more profitable than mining.

I also think that all btc generated should be paid out as dividends, and that if we want to get more hardware we must issue more shares. This will allow for members to choose between reinvestment or to take their earnings. It will also mean more trading on our platform if our venture is profitable.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: theymos on January 25, 2011, 02:43:00 AM
He must forfeit something to the other users that is of high value (maybe more bitcoins) as a kind of deposit that he may get back over time (for example after everyone has earned back their investment,I also have no problem with the operator being paid an extra btc bonus, once off after a certain time if they prove to be trustworthy).

I won't agree to a large, long-term deposit, since the venture is risky and investors may never earn back their investments.

I'm concerned with what happens when the club or I end our agreement. Who pays for shipping? Or should the parts be sold?

Since the machine will be at my house and not in any sort of colocation facility, there will inevitably be downtime due to conditions beyond my control. Something about this should be specified in the agreement.

I will not select hardware, since I don't know enough about it. The club will have to direct me there. I can set up the OS or the club can provide a network boot image.

I am happy to operate the machine, though I am certainly open to competition from people who can offer better rates or facilities.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Anonymous on January 25, 2011, 03:05:37 AM
Those figures are based on US vendor prices as they always get hardware cheaper.  :)



Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Anonymous on January 25, 2011, 03:50:40 AM
He must forfeit something to the other users that is of high value (maybe more bitcoins) as a kind of deposit that he may get back over time (for example after everyone has earned back their investment,I also have no problem with the operator being paid an extra btc bonus, once off after a certain time if they prove to be trustworthy).

I won't agree to a large, long-term deposit, since the venture is risky and investors may never earn back their investments.

I'm concerned with what happens when the club or I end our agreement. Who pays for shipping? Or should the parts be sold?

Since the machine will be at my house and not in any sort of colocation facility, there will inevitably be downtime due to conditions beyond my control. Something about this should be specified in the agreement.

I will not select hardware, since I don't know enough about it. The club will have to direct me there. I can set up the OS or the club can provide a network boot image.

I am happy to operate the machine, though I am certainly open to competition from people who can offer better rates or facilities.

I think the parts should be sold imo.

Added some more info about hardware . Most of it can be sourced from newegg. If people can find an equivalent part cheaper feel free to add it.
http://bitcoind.org/mediawiki/index.php/Building_the_miner.#Suggested_hardware_.28ArtForz.29 (http://bitcoind.org/mediawiki/index.php/Building_the_miner.#Suggested_hardware_.28ArtForz.29)





Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Nefario on January 25, 2011, 04:19:33 AM
He must forfeit something to the other users that is of high value (maybe more bitcoins) as a kind of deposit that he may get back over time (for example after everyone has earned back their investment,I also have no problem with the operator being paid an extra btc bonus, once off after a certain time if they prove to be trustworthy).

I won't agree to a large, long-term deposit, since the venture is risky and investors may never earn back their investments.

I'm concerned with what happens when the club or I end our agreement. Who pays for shipping? Or should the parts be sold?

Since the machine will be at my house and not in any sort of colocation facility, there will inevitably be downtime due to conditions beyond my control. Something about this should be specified in the agreement.

I will not select hardware, since I don't know enough about it. The club will have to direct me there. I can set up the OS or the club can provide a network boot image.

I am happy to operate the machine, though I am certainly open to competition from people who can offer better rates or facilities.

It doesn't matter about you having to forfeit something, noagendamarket says you are trustworthy for this then it is not an issue. If you run away with the machine we will have to kill him.

OK a hardware list can be drawn up, with appropriate prices etc.

Some downtime in acceptable, just not too much, how much is too much I don't know. Is there a way you can be contacted if you are not at home to let you know the machine is down?

When we end our agreement.... we should have a minimum period for the agreement, maybe 6months. At the end we can either continue for another period, or sell the equipment (for cash or bitcoin), or if we have found someone else ship it to them. I think we should pay for the shipping if that is the choice.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: theymos on January 25, 2011, 04:45:23 AM
Is there a way you can be contacted if you are not at home to let you know the machine is down?

You can email me (http://mailhide.recaptcha.net/d?k=010jOV9HRJ3aWhVj1E-DGDag==&c=4X7AO7Ttka2oob9RceP8-g==).

Bitcoin Block Explorer's server had an uptime of 128 days before I recently did some maintenance on it. I have had some extended power outages and ISP trouble in the past, though.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: ColdHardMetal on January 25, 2011, 08:14:55 AM
I've put draft version 2.0 of the bylaws into the wiki which can be found here: http://bitcoind.org/mediawiki/index.php/Bylaws

The main changes where fleshing out the Voting section and defining some new duties of the Officers. I also included some additional Interpretation items which allowed me to clean up the language and avoid some repetition in the rest of the document.

There are a few items regarding the use of Public Key signatures that need work since I don't really know much about that. It might be sufficient to just say something will be signed with a PKS without getting into the process or specifying the methods used to do that.

Again please post your comments etc here.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: ColdHardMetal on January 25, 2011, 08:17:33 AM
I'm working on some financial cash flow projections and I need some help. I'm not sure how to figure out how much power the mining rig will use each day. I probably could, but I know someone else already knows how, so if they could post the calculation here I can build it into the spreadsheet and save a little time.

Thanks.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Nefario on January 25, 2011, 08:38:50 AM
I'm working on some financial cash flow projections and I need some help. I'm not sure how to figure out how much power the mining rig will use each day. I probably could, but I know someone else already knows how, so if they could post the calculation here I can build it into the spreadsheet and save a little time.

Thanks.

With 4 graphics cards the rig can be expected to use around 1200W per hour, that by 24 is your answer.

I'll have a look at the bylaws a little later, Im busy now.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: ColdHardMetal on January 25, 2011, 08:47:24 AM
I'm working on some financial cash flow projections and I need some help. I'm not sure how to figure out how much power the mining rig will use each day. I probably could, but I know someone else already knows how, so if they could post the calculation here I can build it into the spreadsheet and save a little time.

Thanks.

With 4 graphics cards the rig can be expected to use around 1200W per hour, that by 24 is your answer.

I'll have a look at the bylaws a little later, Im busy now.

So 1.2 kWh which I then multiply by the $/kWh number on the bill from the power company to get the cost. Perfect.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Cryptoman on January 25, 2011, 08:47:37 AM
Added some more info about hardware . Most of it can be sourced from newegg. If people can find an equivalent part cheaper feel free to add it.
http://bitcoind.org/mediawiki/index.php/Building_the_miner.#Suggested_hardware_.28ArtForz.29 (http://bitcoind.org/mediawiki/index.php/Building_the_miner.#Suggested_hardware_.28ArtForz.29)

That's a good choice on the MB.  I'm using it in one of my miners.  There is enough space between the PCIe connectors that you can get some airflow between the GPU cards.  The only thing you have to watch out for is the outside GPU card which will be close to the side of the case and may not get enough air.  It might not be too tight in that particular rack case.  I ended up using a tower case with ventilation holes in the bottom.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: grondilu on January 25, 2011, 12:14:00 PM
I'm adding a feature that will allow anyone to add its own asset in my bitcoin asset exchange plateform.  I'm too lazy to finish it today, but I promess it will be done for tomorrow.

http://grondilu.freeshell.org/brokerage.cgi
Not my point, I'd like to see the setup being disclosed publicly and the legal framework to be open so that other groups can start and create their own pools,

Well, that's a relief.  Because I'm still too lazy to work on this right now.  It will be done, but not today.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Anonymous on January 25, 2011, 01:58:42 PM
Should have some polls setup soon so we can gather feedback from everyone who is interested.

The main questions are how many rigs to setup and whether this should be started as an association or an investment club . You can read the page here http://bitcoind.org/mediawiki/index.php/Mining_Association (http://bitcoind.org/mediawiki/index.php/Mining_Association) which raises a valid point about the pros and cons of the structure we end up with.

Thanks to whoever added that to the wiki.  :)




Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Nefario on January 25, 2011, 06:58:55 PM
Some of the points mentioned in the mining association page are not an issue, such as securities law, it is up to us whether we want to follow any laws set by outside governments(which government? where is our club located?, in cypherspace, it is like being in a different world), they won't be able to enforce anything.

We don't want to incorporate outside the bitcoin economy, at least not yet, this adds extra; many extra costs and delays. If this is the route taken then most of us would be better off just building our own machine.

The easiest, fastest way to raise btc for this project is to sell dividend paying shares. At the very worst this can be done semi-manually (digitally signing shares, collecting bitcoin addresses to pay to etc.), but this is something I am building into my trading platform.

The dividend paying share will also have voting features(using signatures), that is it will be easy to vote on motions and verify those votes.

We sell the shares, the users buy the shares, we build the miner, start making btc, and start paying out.

I don't know who made that page(there is no username, noagendamarket can you change the settings so that only registered users can edit pages on the wiki) but I think that is a poor argument, things are moving much faster in the bitcoin economy than in the mainstream, we can't do things the way they  are normally done (we don't have any way to enforce our rules with courts or police and we're so distributed that there is no point in even trying to do things the old world way), take some useful conventions (shares, double entry accounting, auditing, some company roles etc.) and forget the rest.

On a related topic, the motherboard and psu choice in the hardware section are bad. There are a few motherboards that have four PCIE 2.1 x16 slots (MSI890-GD70), this means that it can have 4 graphics cards(instead of just two). And because of this the PSU needs to be more powerful, over 1250W

We can expect to pay around $3000 for a 4 x ati5970 mining machine.

The wiki page, "expressions of interest" is not needed. Essentially once we have our plan and structure in place, we can announce the selling of shares. Those of us here who are involved can prebook at a fixed price for a specific number of shares prior to launch. The rest we can make available for bidding (I will be building that into my platform also, if it is not ready at that time we can use biddingpond). If our "club" or whatever we want to call is going to be profitable then everyone who has bitcoins will buy shares.

I also think there should be another position in the club, if we are going to be basing so much on technology and cryptography we need a Technology Officer.

Roles include ensuring methods, uses, and protocols of cryptographic tools (or software in general) used or developed are sound and secure. As well as conducting any "cyber auditing" that needs to be done.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: S3052 on January 25, 2011, 10:59:15 PM
I'd be considering becoming an investor.

Also, I have experience in marketing if you need to grow / expand it in any point of time.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: ColdHardMetal on January 26, 2011, 01:35:08 AM
Some of the points mentioned in the mining association page are not an issue, such as securities law, it is up to us whether we want to follow any laws set by outside governments(which government? where is our club located?, in cypherspace, it is like being in a different world), they won't be able to enforce anything.

We don't want to incorporate outside the bitcoin economy, at least not yet, this adds extra; many extra costs and delays. If this is the route taken then most of us would be better off just building our own machine.


As long as we keep it private and we aren't trying to solicit funds from Joe Public we can pretty much do whatever we want in my opinion. I did change the bylaw language to move away from "Shares" and "Shareholders" at the suggestion those might be loaded terms for some people. Now participants will be Members which is more reflective of the club nature of the organization anyway.


The easiest, fastest way to raise btc for this project is to sell dividend paying shares. At the very worst this can be done semi-manually (digitally signing shares, collecting bitcoin addresses to pay to etc.), but this is something I am building into my trading platform.

The dividend paying share will also have voting features(using signatures), that is it will be easy to vote on motions and verify those votes.

We sell the shares, the users buy the shares, we build the miner, start making btc, and start paying out.

Yes, all of this.

I also think there should be another position in the club, if we are going to be basing so much on technology and cryptography we need a Technology Officer.

Roles include ensuring methods, uses, and protocols of cryptographic tools (or software in general) used or developed are sound and secure. As well as conducting any "cyber auditing" that needs to be done.

You're not the first to mention this type of role. I'll add something into the bylaws later today. I think it makes a lot of sense to have.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Anonymous on January 26, 2011, 01:48:10 AM
Some of the points mentioned in the mining association page are not an issue, such as securities law, it is up to us whether we want to follow any laws set by outside governments(which government? where is our club located?, in cypherspace, it is like being in a different world), they won't be able to enforce anything.

We don't want to incorporate outside the bitcoin economy, at least not yet, this adds extra; many extra costs and delays. If this is the route taken then most of us would be better off just building our own machine.

The easiest, fastest way to raise btc for this project is to sell dividend paying shares. At the very worst this can be done semi-manually (digitally signing shares, collecting bitcoin addresses to pay to etc.), but this is something I am building into my trading platform.

The dividend paying share will also have voting features(using signatures), that is it will be easy to vote on motions and verify those votes.

We sell the shares, the users buy the shares, we build the miner, start making btc, and start paying out.

I don't know who made that page(there is no username, noagendamarket can you change the settings so that only registered users can edit pages on the wiki) but I think that is a poor argument, things are moving much faster in the bitcoin economy than in the mainstream, we can't do things the way they  are normally done (we don't have any way to enforce our rules with courts or police and we're so distributed that there is no point in even trying to do things the old world way), take some useful conventions (shares, double entry accounting, auditing, some company roles etc.) and forget the rest.

On a related topic, the motherboard and psu choice in the hardware section are bad. There are a few motherboards that have four PCIE 2.1 x16 slots (MSI890-GD70), this means that it can have 4 graphics cards(instead of just two). And because of this the PSU needs to be more powerful, over 1250W

We can expect to pay around $3000 for a 4 x ati5970 mining machine.

The wiki page, "expressions of interest" is not needed. Essentially once we have our plan and structure in place, we can announce the selling of shares. Those of us here who are involved can prebook at a fixed price for a specific number of shares prior to launch. The rest we can make available for bidding (I will be building that into my platform also, if it is not ready at that time we can use biddingpond). If our "club" or whatever we want to call is going to be profitable then everyone who has bitcoins will buy shares.

I also think there should be another position in the club, if we are going to be basing so much on technology and cryptography we need a Technology Officer.

Roles include ensuring methods, uses, and protocols of cryptographic tools (or software in general) used or developed are sound and secure. As well as conducting any "cyber auditing" that needs to be done.


I set the wiki to be edited by registered users only.

Can you add your preferred build to the wiki so people can compare and improve it ?

http://bitcoind.org/mediawiki/index.php/Building_the_miner. (http://bitcoind.org/mediawiki/index.php/Building_the_miner.)

Im also adding a page for organisational roles that people can put their names down for or can add ones they think would help.



If there is a role you can see in the association that you think you can help with feel free to claim it.

For instance a graphic artist is needed to help with logos and images.


If the share issue is oversubscribed is it ok to release more ? Are people worried their vote will be diluted ?  In my mind the larger the rig we can do the better returns everyone will have.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Anonymous on January 26, 2011, 02:12:49 AM
I'd be considering becoming an investor.

Also, I have experience in marketing if you need to grow / expand it in any point of time.


What sort of ideas do you have in mind?

You could do the social networking if you like. So far only a twitter account and quora are setup. I can give you access if you take up the role.

Might be good to have someone answering questions from people who bring up issues . Even a Get Satisfaction page for bitcoind ?







Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Anonymous on January 26, 2011, 03:06:55 AM
afaik we stayed away from 4 gpu cards in one machine because it requires custom cooling....



Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: ColdHardMetal on January 26, 2011, 04:53:33 AM
Yet another Bylaw update: http://bitcoind.org/mediawiki/index.php/Bylaws

Changed to reflect being an Association of Members rather than a club of shareholders. I also added an "Information Officer" position but could use some suggestions as to what that person should be responsible for.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Investment Club
Post by: Vinnie on January 26, 2011, 05:24:18 PM
I'm working on some financial cash flow projections and I need some help. I'm not sure how to figure out how much power the mining rig will use each day. I probably could, but I know someone else already knows how, so if they could post the calculation here I can build it into the spreadsheet and save a little time.

Thanks.

I'll help you with this. I'm taking a quick break from work at the moment, but this evening I'll organize a capital budget template, budgeted income statement template and budgeted balance sheet template. Do you have a google account or windows live account? If so we can use Google Documents or Office Live to share spreadsheets.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Anonymous on January 26, 2011, 06:42:30 PM
When can we start purchasing shares?


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Vinnie on January 26, 2011, 07:29:20 PM
When can we start purchasing shares?

On my end we need at least a capital budget for the first operating year (at least) as well as a budgeted balance sheet and income statement. These hinge on consensus on what accurate estimates are. Then there's equipment, software, etc. to setup. So who knows how long it will take?


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: bit-numismatist on January 26, 2011, 08:25:23 PM
I'll invest in the project at least 2000 BTC or maybe more depending on interest level it can provide.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Martian on January 26, 2011, 09:52:13 PM
I'd be interested in investing something along the lines of 50 BTC in this if it gets off the ground. At the moment my bitcoins are just languishing in my wallet. And it's a lot less capital to invest than I would building my own mining rig.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Anonymous on January 26, 2011, 10:41:36 PM
The ball is rolling now so we should have some news for everyone as soon as its official.



Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: FreeMoney on January 28, 2011, 12:06:41 AM
If everything looks efficient and legit I'm in for 200BTC, possibly as much as 1000. I can also 'buy in' via PP if USD are needed.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: superbitcoin on January 28, 2011, 09:42:41 PM
If everything looks efficient and legit ...

I'm in for probably 5000BTC  8)


Title: Re: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Cdecker on January 28, 2011, 10:15:53 PM
I'd be in for something between 200-1000 BTC :D


Title: Re: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: tcatm on January 29, 2011, 09:50:36 AM
@vladimir: Can we run custom miner software on your hardware + rent a small server to run bitcoind that is close in terms of latency (< 1ms) to the miners?


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Nefario on January 29, 2011, 01:12:59 PM
Mining bitcoins will not always be profitable, and may not be worthwhile after a 6 month time period if difficulty increases too much. At that point we will have a number of machines which we can use for other purposes and with which we can make further income. And once we are finished we can sell the equipment, not at the price we paid but for something.

Outsourcing everything would make sense if we were an existing company trying to cut costs in something that is a cost center and generates no revenue. But this will be the core business of our club for some time. Doing it ourselves alows us to develope expertise which we will need. If we use your service Vladimir along with it being more expensive we will be left with nothing but a few bitcoins, and no expertise or equipment to use for something else, and our club must then disband.

If we do it ourselves then we will be in a position to do more things once we have finished mining, these would be more opportunities to make more bitcoin and at the same time have more sefvices or even products available in the bitcoin economy.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2011, 01:31:14 PM
The hardware operator isnt a sixteen year old living in the basement.  In fact hes one of the most respected and intelligent members of the forum.

The bitcoind project is about people having a piece of the capital not part of an expensive prepaid contract which leaves them with no physical hardware after the contract is finished. Your contracts are purely for bitcoin mining which is not exactly what we are planning for.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: ribuck on January 29, 2011, 01:45:17 PM
Mining bitcoins will not always be profitable, and may not be worthwhile after a 6 month time period if difficulty increases too much.

Or, mining might be worthwhile if the price of bitcoins has risen enough. Or, it might be worthwhile if transaction fees are charged. Or, the difficulty rise might pause when the Northern Hemisphere summer arrives.

There are plenty of unknowns, so I think this should be considered an adventure rather than a charted course.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: gene on January 29, 2011, 02:23:22 PM
The hardware operator isnt a sixteen year old living in the basement.  In fact hes one of the most respected and intelligent members of the forum.

The bitcoind project is about people having a piece of the capital not part of an expensive prepaid contract which leaves them with no physical hardware after the contract is finished. Your contracts are purely for bitcoin mining which is not exactly what we are planning for.

I did not mean an offence, just tried to bring to your attention that when you deal with anonymous members on a forum you really cannot know that it is not really a 16 year old. I certainly did not refer to any specific person on this forum. and "16 year old" is just a figure of speech, I know a few 16 year olds who are much dependable than some adults and vice versa. My point is that the risks must be assessed when running club like yours.

I didn't notice your post in this thread until now, and I asked the following question in another thread. Since you are soliciting your services, it is more appropriate to ask here:

How can you can claim "20+ years of experience with Linux and FreeBSD," since Torvalds didn't even begin to work on Linux until 1991 and FreeBSD wasn't released until late 1993.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: gene on January 29, 2011, 02:35:35 PM

I've just answered it in that thread.


Yes. And because of you, I will waste my weekend looking at ancient fidonet echolists.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: gene on January 29, 2011, 02:42:44 PM

I've just answered it in that thread.


Yes. And because of you, I will waste my weekend looking at ancient fidonet echolists.

1. You do not have to.
2. And your point is?

Relax. I meant that you brought back memories of the pre-internet days, and that your post made me want to go back and look for some old stuff.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2011, 02:59:52 PM
We arent claiming anything outrageous or downplaying the risks. That is the reason we are getting full financial reports and risk assessments done before we even begin to solicit members. They should be aware of all the information we have. Bitcoin mining is full of assumptions and guesstimates so having other options is a must.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: ribuck on January 29, 2011, 03:08:36 PM
That is the reason we are getting full financial reports and risk assessments done before we even begin to solicit members.
Sure, you are playing it cautious. But I see a risk of analysis paralysis setting in: trying to tie up all the loose ends while the difficulty rises and the window of opportunity starts to close...

Anyway I think a collaborative venture is a great thing to do. But it's going to have to be nimble to be successful.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: ColdHardMetal on January 29, 2011, 03:21:47 PM
Anyway I think a collaborative venture is a great thing to do. But it's going to have to be nimble to be successful.

This is what makes it interesting imo. One of the main reasons I intend to be involved. Just the nature of what we are trying to achieve in terms of the organizational aspects is pretty neat.  :)


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: mizerydearia on January 29, 2011, 08:06:00 PM
Sure, you are playing it cautious. But I see a risk of analysis paralysis setting in: trying to tie up all the loose ends while the difficulty rises and the window of opportunity starts to close...

Anyway I think a collaborative venture is a great thing to do. But it's going to have to be nimble to be successful.

Actually, while you may consider that the 'window' is starting to close, that is only based on the current value of Bitcoin in relation to the expenses to establish hardware dedicated to mining Bitcoin.

If you consider that regardless of the expenses for mining Bitcoins, that there will still be Bitcoin miners since there are ~140 years remaining to establish all the Bitcoins.

I think a better comparison is for individuals to depict the costs of mining using their own hardware and electricity compared to costs for investing in Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association.  In this case, for users that want to contribute towards mining Bitcoins, they would still have an opportunity to do using either of the two methods suggested above depending on which is lesser expensive for them.

I believe it is still useful to establish a mining association that offers best performance at best value regardless of how difficult it is to generate a block or the cost to operate*.

* Unless the cost to operate is comparably more expensive than users establishing their own individual hardware setups to mine.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2011, 10:32:45 PM
That is the reason we are getting full financial reports and risk assessments done before we even begin to solicit members.
Sure, you are playing it cautious. But I see a risk of analysis paralysis setting in: trying to tie up all the loose ends while the difficulty rises and the window of opportunity starts to close...

Anyway I think a collaborative venture is a great thing to do. But it's going to have to be nimble to be successful.

I agree. Im sure you are also aware of the risks when dealing with "shares" and Im not just talking about bitcoin itself. We are dealing with some powerful entrenched interest groups .


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: gigitrix on February 02, 2011, 01:38:02 AM
This thread is relevant to my interests and I'm posting so I get the new reply updates. You may have yourself a smalltime investor, with more if I'm satisfied by risk assessments etc.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2011, 03:32:53 AM
This thread is relevant to my interests and I'm posting so I get the new reply updates. You may have yourself a smalltime investor, with more if I'm satisfied by risk assessments etc.

Thanks gigitrix.



Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2011, 12:23:52 PM
Just an update.

We are tallying up interest in bitcoind on irc.

So far 29.7k has been pledged.


You can email me at bitcoind@gmail.com or post here or irc if you'd like to add to the total tally.




Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Anonymous on February 04, 2011, 05:17:55 AM
http://bitcoind.org/mediawiki/index.php/Status (http://bitcoind.org/mediawiki/index.php/Status)

This page will give updates on the current status. The expression of interest phase is now open.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Cusipzzz on February 04, 2011, 02:51:40 PM
Not sure you got my email, or details while on irc. In for 500, 1000 if needed (but doubt the need).

I agree with not getting stuck in analysis paralysis - strike while the iron is hot. Will chat on irc soon. thanks. 


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Anonymous on February 06, 2011, 02:03:51 PM
Expression of interest is closed. Thanks to everyone who participated.








Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: ribuck on February 08, 2011, 02:01:24 PM
I'm not participating in BPMA, but I very much want this association to succeed.

In any association larger than say half-a-dozen people, there's a risk of much time and energy being wasted deciding on how to make decisions, allocate work, and keep track of things. You may wish to use the service provided by BetterMeans. Although they charge a fee to corporations, it's completely free for organizations that have publicly-visible workflows.

It seems well-suited to an association with an anarchistic leaning. Here's their introductory video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAlnMWlvw9g


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Anonymous on February 09, 2011, 12:35:53 AM
We have enough funding interest from within the operations team, so no further funding is needed. Thank you all for your interest.

If the need for further expansion develops we will be in touch.

The "operations team" means those directly responsible for  the project who contribute in some way. 

We could have created 2 bitcoind projects going by all the wonderful support we received!


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: Anonymous on February 15, 2011, 11:11:31 AM
http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3370.msg47302#msg47302 (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3370.msg47302#msg47302)


I recommend if you missed out on the first round to invest in Nefario's new project.


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: bitjet on February 19, 2011, 10:01:38 PM
hows this going so far?


Title: Re: Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association
Post by: N12 on February 19, 2011, 11:14:09 PM
Id love to invest in this. Please keep me updated. :)