Bitcoin Forum

First sorry for my English.
I would like to introduce you my idea for new kind virtual currency.
I like bitcoin, ish, because there is one deficiency - only people who can buy ASIC divice can mine it.
I think that everyone should be able to mine.
Such are supposed to be the world money. So all people will be equal each others.
So, instead computer power, we can use our brains.
The p2p system will produce CAPTCHA images and people have to recognize them and so the will receive coins
(randomly).


So, only people will be able to mine, not computers. Only human brain can recognize charachters from CAPTCHA image (in which chars are blurred,   
inverted ect.)

UPDATED:
The problem - everybody will read CAPTCHA and will win coins and will not work.
One solution - the chance to win coin must be low, otherwise they will find to much coins.
It must be something like jackpot. So people will try their lucky in their free time or
while they traveling in the metro for example. So they will have motivation to read CAPTCHAs.

Finally it's matter of disign. P2P system will control how much coins to produce and the big brains who design bitcoin, could design the new currency.
Everybody have limited time. The personal time is the value of such kind currency.


I would like to share and discuss my idea with this community.

could be interesting

You do realize that you can pay third world people (http://deathbycaptcha.com/) to solve captchas for you at the price of about $1 per thousand, right?

This is not a problem. Why someone will work for someone else, if he can win more if works for yourself? You will not find workers, except you pay more, than is your profit :)


No more computer mining my friend, no more easy profit, I'm sorry for you, next ;)

So instead of using GPUs to mine, you just want to use chinese kids?

That already exists. They're called sweatshops.

First if someone use children to work - this is crime. It is matter of laws.
You do not think enough.
As I said, nobody will find workers for that, because workers will work for yourself, not for someone else.
If you pay to worker $1, he must bring to you $2 (for example). He can't be so naive (even children), he will work for yourself, not for you.

Yeah, laws are great, and they work! Oh wait, they don't.

http://www.dol.gov/ilab/images/if_20080612a_hi.jpg

So, nothing new under sun my friend. We can't do nothing about that, it's not in our competence.
But this can't affect the currency, see my last update - human time is limited.

I see many people are scared from this new mining, because they can buy ASIC and do easy profits and don't want things to change. Sorry for you guys. Let Chinese children earn money, not only you, so they will have money to eat, because they can't buy an ASIC divice.

You need to build a CAPTCHA Coin ATM...
That dispenses a bowl of rice to the child slave miners.

OK, how many children work for you in real mines (in Africa and ect.), where they are mining minerals (copper ect.) for your ASIC divice?
Stop talk about childred slaves, this is not the subject.
Bitcoin now is not different from USD, only rich can mine it. So if you support bitcoin, you support children slaves.
This is why things must change, and may be this is wrong place, all are greedy miners here .

It won't work, there are many programs that can read captcha even better then humans do.

They are mad only because they cannot reach Chinese (children) miners!  ;D

But it's well understood that your time spending for mining is less productive than if you work flipping burgers.

It depends, computers can't read some CAPTCHA (more of them, which are good protected).

I will make a CAPTCHA image on my photoshop, then you find software that can recognize the charachters.

CAPTCHA is an old failed security solution...
Do some research... there are MUCH better ways of requiring some human input.

It's not a good idea, your coin will be open source, so after it's not difficult to reverse engineer a CAPTCHA.

Are you developer? It's matter of design. Your computer will not produce the image for you, so you will not able to do any reverse engineering. P2P network will produce the images and will distribute them randomly between peers.

Let's think. Is bitcoin changing the system. I think not exactly. Who can buy ASIC- only the rich. If they want, they can buy the most powerful ASIC or quantum computers (I'm talking about banks, corporation as google, apple, microsoft ...), so they will get the coins. It's a lost cause.

This statement is not fully true anymore:
"Bitcoin is ... nobody owns or controls Bitcoin and everyone can take part. "

I think this is a really good idea. Certainly people who invested into mining gear will not like it. Shit happens, but who cares :)?

yeah its an ok idea, although i agree that there would be much better ways to require human input. how about a need for speed coin where every x amount of minutes there is a race in a game like need for speed and the winner of said race is reward with one block of coins.  that way you can't use child laborers (or at least if you do they will have fun!)  and you can accurately predict the generation curve.  You could make the tracks more and more difficult as more miners (ie racers) join the game.  

An interesting idea and I would very much like to see this in action.

Somewhere I've seen some ads about a minecraft server where you can get BTC for building or mining something. Maybe the easiest solution would be an EVE online ISK/BTC or an ISK/some altcoin exchange.

I agree with you!
The system actually never changes!

People or families that were once in power are always in power.
Look at the eastern european countries "new democracies" who is on power in this countries today!
Same communist motherfuckers ex KGB bastards are the richest and hold every key position in every eastern European country.

Therefore the same applies to bitcoin alt-coin.
Who has or owns more FIAT currency  will also own more crypto currency in future.

Anyway related to the captcha thing I found an interesting article maybe will be of good use.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/singularity/2012/08/28/artificial-intelligence-will-defeat-captcha-how-will-we-prove-were-human-then/

I really like this idea! And apart from the kind of solution you suggest it is a real problem.
Cryptocurrencies have the potential to change the system. But at the moment, as you
said, its not much different then USD. Rich people (who jumped on BTC early or have
a lot of capital) get richer with big mining rigs or trading and poor people cannot participate
like they should!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=300538.0

soon :D

And this s why the world (the ordinary people) will not hug the bitcoin in this form. It must evolve or will be replaced by another currency.

I agree with your philosophy...
But CAPTCHAs are the most hated thing in the world...
They are onerous... and frustrating... and boring... and boring... and boring... and boring.

If your creativity ends at CAPTCHAs... just get a fucking job.

CRAPTCHA coin -- India's new national currency.

nice, but the problem I see is this: how would you create the images?
in the OP you say "The p2p system will produce CAPTCHA images...". Then on another you said "Your computer will not produce the image for you"
so... how would the image be generated?
the problem is that the computer, person, or whatever, that generates the image already knows the answer, so it could "cheat" and create a new block and earn $ without effort.
and if the image is created in a way that nobody knows the answer, then... how could the system verify that the answer is right?

sorry, a captcha cryptocurrency is not possible unless you figure this out

This is not possible if the coin is open source (reverse engineering will be easy), but it's possible with a closed source code. But if it's closed nobody will use it.

It would be interesting if there is unique captcha, like mini games, some maths question and shoot the bird.

Into the bin it goes...

any captcha will be cracked for bots if much money is on the table. This idea is really bad.

I really like the idea that everyone have equal way to get the coin instead of powerful GPU or ASIC, but really need a better choice then captcha.

maybe think about something which do not absorbe the power, but 1CPU,1specification of hardware = 1 share. Or something like POS, the longer you have open your Wallet, the better chance to find a block.

But then again, people with a lot of resources can generate more coins. I guess human work = shares is still a better idea. But captcha is obviously not the best solution.
I don't know what is out there that is not solvable by machines and impossible to solve through reverse engineering. But for every problem there must be a solution.

Don't just say: it doesn't work, into the trash with this thread. Because this is at least an idea worth developing.

May be you are right, may be they will make bot for CAPTCHAs, no matter how well protected they are.
If CPU=shares, so the rich can buy thousand of CPU, so this is not a solution.
We must think about "human work = shares".
The CAPTCHA is the best way for now to distinguish human from machine, but it is still not reliable enough.
I have not other idea for the moment.

There are a couple of opensource or free captcha implementations. You can embed it into the client or you can use it on the "pool" servers. The only issue with the second solution is the relative centralized nature as you need the captcha servers to keep the coin working. Writing a distributed solution where everything included in the client would be a lot of work but it could work well.

Are you conflating initial distribution of your currency with the ongoing and very not-profitable business of securing your currency?

Remember that mining is ultimately a race to the bottom, it is, by design, the type of business in which profit will be almost non-existent because if you try to remove something to take as profit you are crippling your own ability to compete with competitors who don't need as much profit or who have cheaper labour/power or whatever.

So first off, totalyl separate the matter of securing the blockchain from the matter of who gets how many of the currency in the first place.

You want something like ASIC for securing the coin, because securing the coin is damn close to zero profit, the only reason there are any transaction fees at all are not so that there will be profit to lure people into mining but more so that there will be a budget out of which people can try to secure the damn coin hopefully without so much parasitical freeloading, also known as profit-taking, that the parasites take so mcuh as what they consider their "entitlement" of "profit" that there is nothing left to actually secure the damn coin.

Mining is not meant to be profitable, it is meant to be feasible, that is, people who can get really good prices on power and parts and support and bandwidth should be able to "afford" to mine, hopefully without having to skip any meals to keep the miners running.

So just totally forget about mining as a source of income for anyone. Focus on who do the coins created originally get given out to originally.

For one thing you can then hopefully see that it would be better to give out actual bitcoins than to make up some new coin, because some new coin is less likely to have enough transaction fees going on to finance the securing of the blockchain. SO ideally you want a coin that, like bitcoin, already has lots of transactions going on, so that there is some hope that securing the chain can be doing not by giving way new coins created out of thin air but, rather, by people who want transactions done paying to have their transactions processed.

Giving away money is a totally separate concern. It should be none of the miners business who you give away your money to, who ever wants to give money to someone should simply pay their transaction fee like anyone else to have some of their money be transferred to someone else.

Maybe you would be best off using Ripple source code instead of Bitcoin as your basis to build from, because with RIpple type approach you do not have that insanely huge expense involved in securing your currency. YOu can simply print a hundred billion coins and give them away to anyone you wish, whether by having them solve captchas or give you blowjobs or however else you'd like to choose who to give the stuff to.

-MarkM-

You are missing the point. How would you generate the capthas? The clients or the pool owners need to know the answer in order to generate the captchas. So they could cheat, and tell the answer to a friend and earn $ for nothing.

The problem is not the bots (at least not only the bots). Imagine there was a perfect captcha, with images, sounds, or whatever, that only humans could solve. Who would generate the challenges and then verify the responses?

The following design is possible:

1) miner ONE (human) makes a captcha and the client app submits it to a pool server
2) miner TWO (human) gets a random captcha from a pool server and submits back the answer
3) random p2p clients (human) get both the original captcha and the answer and verify that the answer is correct

4) if the answer is correct a block is created and miners ONE and TWO get a reward
5) p2p clients also get a small reward but for just verifying (kinda transaction processing), regardless of whether the answer was correct and their intention is to keep the blockchain healthy as only then their earnings make sense

* depending on how many p2p clients verify the answer the number of confirmations limits the coin supply processing speed and security
* pool server is a p2p node in the network
* a captcha can be anything, no software will understand it

the coin should be called HumanCoin

This seems terrible. Isn't this like Primecoin? But instead of the scientific output being mathematically interesting prime number chains, the output is millions of solved CAPTCHAs for spammers to post Viagra links on Wordpress blogs?

People don't seem to get it...
That if you can make humans solve boring CAPTCHAs to mine...
Well, you can replace that with ANY human computer activity...
The whole idea would be to make it an interesting human activity...
One chess move, one poker hand, interaction with a virtual world, etc...

Why does "mining" have to be 100% auto-pilot experience best done by clusters and botnets...
Because Devs are too lazy to break out of the Bitcoin Mindset.

As for primes, women are hot for primes... check out Girls Gone Prime.

I would prefer it to be game coin, play games, kill boss and get coin. :)

One of the "aims" of Chronokings is for it to be Human Mineable .

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=262599.0

although, maybe eventually, it will be bots against bots ..

but if miner ONE posts the captcha he just made to a forum, so miner TWO can find it and solve it effortlessly, then modified clients could do this broadcasting of solutions and later submission of answers in an automated way. Notice that these bots do not solve the captcha, they don't need to know how to solve it, just publish and resubmit the solutions. Miner ONE and TWO are the same person, or miner ONE gives the answer to miner TWO for a small % of the $.
One of the strengths of the bitcoin protocol is that an 'evil' modified client (node) has no way to cheat.

Looks interesting . Watching .

miner ONE submits to the network, he doesn't know who gets this catpcha later.
miner TWO is randomly selected and the protocol doesn't allow it to be the same miner who created the captcha.
The captcha for solving is also randomly selected from a long queue of previously submitted captchas. That means that not every miner who creates a captcha gets a reward, if his captcha will not ever be selected. Its like currently not every miner solves the block. Basically, the more captchas you create the bigger chances you get for your captcha to be selected.

if miner ONE systematically broadcasts his answers he makes the coin worthless, its like currently the pools avoid getting too big, coz they want the coin to be strong. Also, some monitoring can be done by people and if they find malicious activity they get all of the malicious user rewards.

and if only few coins are created with cheating that doesn't stop the system from functioning as the transactions get signed by other p2p nodes, its like in real life some fake money do not mean much

I just sort of feel that this is huge waste of human time - which is probably more valuable than any currency. I admit Bitcoin is a colossal waste of electricity - but at least the network can be upheld by machines without a lot of human intervention. (If every mining rig was using renewable energy though - it would be amazing!)

But using my most precious resource - time - as a POS/POW in a cryptocurrency is not going to fly with anyone but slaves/prisoners, or maybe dirt-poor countries where it's a good hourly...

If it were gamified somehow - then you've got an idea. Make it sudoku puzzles or word scrambles. Or why not just make the currency contribute BOINC-style (but with humans) to proof-reading scanned OCR books?

1) Botpool 1 generates a huge number of captchas and submits them to the pool server
1a) It also passes all of the generated images and solutions to botpool 2
2) Botpool 2 repeatedly requests captchas from the pool server. If the image matches one it already has from botpool 1, it submits the correct answer, otherwise it just burns it and requests the next.
3) Some poor sods have the job of verifying all this bot generated work for almost no reward

Computers could generate and match these images so fast that no human actors could possibly compete.

If every mining rig was using renewable energy ... that is renewable energy that could be used for something else instead, reducing the use of non-renewable energy. The energy wastage is the same either way, as long as there is some other way of using the renewable energy.

This can be avoided easily:
1) to submit and answer captchas you need to register and the submission rate is limited
2) coins could vest and if malicious activity is found out then all non-vested coins get confiscated
3) when miner 2 gives a wrong answer the verifiers mark him as untrusted

They are botpools, they have multiple connections, so submission rate limits aren't going to work.
You can't dump anyone who gives a wrong answer, humans frequently fail captcha, and even if you do dump one bot, they can just cycle to a new connection.
The only human element required would be creating new accounts and feeding those details into the botpools.
Even ignoring the answering aspect, the first botpool could create captchas, and feed them in through multiple accounts, far faster than any human could, and just take that part of the payout. The moment your network started, 90%+ of the captchas could be computer generated, in which case the second botpool is almost guaranteed to get a captcha it already knows the answer for.
The system would fail because the human verification step would be orders of magnitude too slow.
To make it work, you would have to make that verification step the key point.
(Although at that point, botpool 3 would step in and do verifications for all those captchas it already knows the answer for)

This entire discussion is predicated on the Bitcoin Mentality...
That every PC in the fucking world, friendly or malicious...
Is ENTITLED to a connection, ENTITLED to mine, ENTITLED to manipulate.

That will change... there should be at least 2 levels of entitlement:

(1)  Using the wallet = everyone.

(2)  Mining and rewards = some rules apply

There are now 100s of different security devices at trivial cost...
One can use human input + security devices anonymously to enforce #2...
This is all coming, but people have Bitcoin Blinders on.

Check out http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=cpu_mining

So far is has been working pretty well and is surprisingly popular. It does not need powerful expensive machines even, a Raspberry Pi or a Beaglebone could do it nicely...

-MarkM-

Yes, that's the way to go... Satoshi feared megapools, BotNets, clusters, etc = Coin Rapers.

Right now in pre-release there is Hunter Coin which relies on a virtual game space...
And GridCoin which has blocks ranging from 5-175...
Only people running BOINC (integrated with the GridCoin wallet) qualify for the big blocks.

These will be interesting to watch...
Also, the first coin to link a security fob/USB to miner/pc will be non-human-resistant.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=security+fob&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=RoFgUrCxIeTh4APVvYHwAg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1160&bih=889&dpr=1