Bitcoin Forum

Economy => Trading Discussion => Topic started by: gloriam5 on March 13, 2018, 03:10:30 PM



Title: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: gloriam5 on March 13, 2018, 03:10:30 PM
Artificial intelligence on the side of justice. A group of scientists from Michigan, Stanford and the University of California developed the ICORATING algorithm, which is capable of detecting ICO scammers with an accuracy of 83%.
The algorithm examined more than 2000 ICO projects, life expectancy and price changes for the crypto currency, whitepaper, constituent team, GitHub repository, websites and other information from the network.
This development should greatly help investors safely invest their capital in a truly existing and profitable ICO, and also analyze and give an overall assessment of the market.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: jmlona on March 13, 2018, 05:20:38 PM
What's the source of this? I find it hard to believe that an AI could so accurately identify which projects will be scams because you have well versed humans who cannot even achieve such a level of accuracy.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: stronghands4lyfe on March 13, 2018, 05:37:02 PM
And will they publish the results publicly so we can all view this? I would love to use a tool like that because if it is true and accurate then the ICO market will shrink substantially which is a net positive!


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: pawanjain on March 13, 2018, 05:50:25 PM
Where have you read the article ? What is the source of your context ?
There are many rumors that keep on spreading these days.Kindly update the post with the source so that users could believe what you are saying.
Although AI has entered the market and has showed us its great ability, it's tough to believe something like this. It would be really good though if something like this would be happening since investors would be benefitting a lot from it. If it were true, it would still be a little risky since the accuracy rate is 83% in which case some of the legit ICOs might get a bad name because of it.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: lite on March 13, 2018, 07:15:42 PM
Artificial intelligence on the side of justice. A group of scientists from Michigan, Stanford and the University of California developed the ICORATING algorithm, which is capable of detecting ICO scammers with an accuracy of 83%.
The algorithm examined more than 2000 ICO projects, life expectancy and price changes for the crypto currency, whitepaper, constituent team, GitHub repository, websites and other information from the network.
This development should greatly help investors safely invest their capital in a truly existing and profitable ICO, and also analyze and give an overall assessment of the market.
Are you one of the team member who developed this AI or algorithm? i tried searching for an article on this, but couldn't find anything. would you mind sharing more information or an article (if there is one).


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: Sock778 on March 13, 2018, 07:26:04 PM
Wow, this is a really good development. I want to try this AI out LOL. Is there a way for them to have the public test it on potential ICOs? I ask because, I m sure the answer is no because they don't want legal liability if an ICO sues them for um, libel/slander.

That said, I hope they find a legal way to offer the service for testing!


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: Leonard2016 on March 13, 2018, 07:39:28 PM
I don't know from where you have written that , but about artificial intelligence , i think It's just matter of time of that it becomes human enemy as many of scientists said like Elon Musk.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: Mahanton on March 13, 2018, 07:53:06 PM
Artificial intelligence on the side of justice. A group of scientists from Michigan, Stanford and the University of California developed the ICORATING algorithm, which is capable of detecting ICO scammers with an accuracy of 83%.
The algorithm examined more than 2000 ICO projects, life expectancy and price changes for the crypto currency, whitepaper, constituent team, GitHub repository, websites and other information from the network.
This development should greatly help investors safely invest their capital in a truly existing and profitable ICO, and also analyze and give an overall assessment of the market.
Are you one of the team member who developed this AI or algorithm? i tried searching for an article on this, but couldn't find anything. would you mind sharing more information or an article (if there is one).
Maybe hes one of the team of such project which when i tried to read up it do caught my attention since we do really need this stuff considering that this is the same or even way more better than ICO rating which would really be suited for most investors on using this one.Just like yours im trying to search up further information but i do failed out.Im waiting for OP's response on where we can further see about informations towards this.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: Digital Mutant on March 13, 2018, 08:46:48 PM
It is very interesting but you should publish the source of this...


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: rhodelmabanal on March 13, 2018, 09:42:28 PM
I think this post has a large statement of the future, The  Dawn of the A.I, not a sequel on S Spielberg films.  I know that they have importance of our society makes life easier and tends to use people in many purposes. If people may be facing extinction, they will be over the world to rules.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: VclDm on March 13, 2018, 09:59:52 PM
Wow, this is a really good development. I want to try this AI out LOL. Is there a way for them to have the public test it on potential ICOs? I ask because, I m sure the answer is no because they don't want legal liability if an ICO sues them for um, libel/slander.

That said, I hope they find a legal way to offer the service for testing!
AI technology in cryptocurrency is a new trend being developed by ICO projects. I believe ICOs in the field of AI will develop very well because it is truly practical in the lives of today's people. I also participate in many ICO projects with artificial intelligence and most of it is growing very well.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: goaldigger on March 13, 2018, 10:32:42 PM
Finally, something who can be a great use for detecting scam ICOs. We need it now. For we are having more and more ICOs without the assurance if that was a fraud or not. The only question is that,  is this project legit? You didnt put some link to your sources. Where do you get this imformation?  If that so, would it services be free and open to public?


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: Hitch-hiker on March 13, 2018, 11:17:35 PM
It's hard evaluate this without a source but it's not that much of a stretch of the imagination to think it's possible.

Let's face it, AI can do a lot of stuff much more efficiently than any human ever will.

Some say AI bots are manipulating the markets right now. While I have no idea if that's the case it does seem plausible. We saw the banksters making moves on crypto last year and price surge around the same time, if they gained a big enough percentage of the market capitalization they could use AI bots to pump and dump and then buy it all back for pennies on the pound in the low cycles.

 


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: btcformula on March 14, 2018, 02:53:30 AM
In business everyone plays safe game. Scammers know very well how they can make full. There lot's of tech now on market AI, Machine learning , IOT etc that can warn people only but until & unless people dont understand what is good and what is bad , all the technology is nothing.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: farwellbit on March 15, 2018, 12:45:25 PM
What's the source of this? I find it hard to believe that an AI could so accurately identify which projects will be scams because you have well versed humans who cannot even achieve such a level of accuracy.
AI is exactly the same branch of the intelligence which humans cannot do perfectly. This is where zero tolerance become a thing, and if one of the user which you do not want enters the system, the whole system will be collapsed. What happens is that the computer is already told about who all can come in and who all cannot, and this data is modified hourly on the basis of new developments. So there is no chance that computer will commit the mistake, and you get your desired result.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: piloder on March 15, 2018, 12:55:48 PM
I don't think all of this was done automatically by AI even if there is such AI there is no proof about it as there is no any article supporting this things and OP haven't replied back till now.

I am quite sure if they will make this public and add some price per search than they will be make millions in no time as there are many newbie investors out there willing to invest in promising ICO even if they don't have deep knowledge about ICO or crypto in whole.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: k@suy on March 15, 2018, 01:44:34 PM
Wow, this is a really good development. I want to try this AI out LOL. Is there a way for them to have the public test it on potential ICOs? I ask because, I m sure the answer is no because they don't want legal liability if an ICO sues them for um, libel/slander.

That said, I hope they find a legal way to offer the service for testing!
AI technology in cryptocurrency is a new trend being developed by ICO projects. I believe ICOs in the field of AI will develop very well because it is truly practical in the lives of today's people. I also participate in many ICO projects with artificial intelligence and most of it is growing very well.

It takes a lot of effort to develop an AI on this field, but really appreciated their effort if its true. There are many platform using an AI on the current ICO's and hope they can develop a very useful product. Cindicator  (CND) is another one. In the future, AI will be present in any field to to help humans in decision making and calculated risk with almost greater accuracy.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: jtipt on March 15, 2018, 01:59:39 PM
What's the source of this? I find it hard to believe that an AI could so accurately identify which projects will be scams because you have well versed humans who cannot even achieve such a level of accuracy.
Yeah I would also a source on this. While AI and bots are capable of finding these things, if programmed correctly. The accuracy might not be correct tho.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: Borisb52 on March 15, 2018, 02:07:02 PM
ICO projects have too many factors that affect the success of the project. And it seems to me that artificial intelligence can not track all these factors. For example, how to track a factor such as the disintegration of the team. After all, such a factor can completely destroy the project.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: rawafe on March 16, 2018, 09:01:26 AM
This kind of technology will revolutine the process. Complex decision-making involving a multitude of variables becomes possible with Artificial Intelligence and improved efficiency in business decision-making a customer satisfaction.
I know some project like OBIZCOIN that want to use this sort of technology.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: haroldtee on March 16, 2018, 09:40:43 AM
Artificial intelligence on the side of justice. A group of scientists from Michigan, Stanford and the University of California developed the ICORATING algorithm, which is capable of detecting ICO scammers with an accuracy of 83%.
The algorithm examined more than 2000 ICO projects, life expectancy and price changes for the crypto currency, whitepaper, constituent team, GitHub repository, websites and other information from the network.
This development should greatly help investors safely invest their capital in a truly existing and profitable ICO, and also analyze and give an overall assessment of the market.
Are you one of the team member who developed this AI or algorithm? i tried searching for an article on this, but couldn't find anything. would you mind sharing more information or an article (if there is one).
The guy is just a stingy informant. Dropping such a development like that, without a single reference. For those who have been asking for reference, here is the closest article I was able to get with really not much information.

http://crypta.news/2018/03/13/fraudulent-ico-project-will-be-calculated-with-the-help-of-artificial-intelligence/

I do not even trust this particular source anyway as it looks like a hungry website with a hungry owner.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: slashz9 on March 16, 2018, 11:23:27 AM
wow it looks good, I'm glad if it really exists, because now there are so many people are not responsible for the ico he made, they just make a fake web like phishing or the like then just disappear, I would strongly support it if the project is true .


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: malikusama on March 16, 2018, 12:01:01 PM
Provide the links or references from where you got the news about this particular algorithm, app or whatever it is?
And how you got the figure of 83% accuracy?,  BTW the idea is impressive and helpful to restrict the scammers in the market.



Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: eternalgloom on March 16, 2018, 12:09:08 PM
I think I've found the correct source for this news: https://thenextweb.com/artificial-intelligence/2018/03/13/bad-news-for-most-cryptocurrency-companies-ai-can-tell-if-your-ico-is-a-scam/

This article is pretty in-depth and it does seem that the research done is legitimate.

From the article:

Quote
By analyzing 2,251 ICO projects, we correlate the life span and the price change of a digital currency with various levels of its ICO information, including its white papers, founding team, GitHub repository, website, etc. For the best setting, the proposed system is able to identify scam ICO projects with a precision of 0.83 and an F1 score of 0.80.

And this is encouraging, even if it isn’t revolutionary. This particular paper showcases an algorithm-based system that essentially automates what savvy investors are already doing by seeking out publicly available information that draws an overall picture of a coin. This is good for a couple of reasons, as the team points out:

Compared against human-designed rating systems, ICORATING has two key advantages. (1) Objectivity: a machine learning model involves less prior knowledge about the world, instead learning the causality from the data, in contrast to human designed systems that require massive involvement of human experts, who inevitably introduce biases. (2) Difficulty of manipulation by unscrupulous actors: the credit rating result is output from a machine learning model through black-box training. This process requires minor human involvement and intervention

It's definitely interesting that they've already have an 80% success rate and I agree with them that a system like this has many advantages over human-designed systems.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: quality.crypto on March 16, 2018, 12:17:22 PM
wow it looks good, I'm glad if it really exists, because now there are so many people are not responsible for the ico he made, they just make a fake web like phishing or the like then just disappear, I would strongly support it if the project is true .

We have to be very careful with those websites because nobody doesn't know but they seem to be very interesting, they will design the website, whether they have good vision in terms of technology and at last after raising enough money they went into scams.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: 13abyknight on March 16, 2018, 01:41:19 PM
Artificial intelligence on the side of justice. A group of scientists from Michigan, Stanford and the University of California developed the ICORATING algorithm, which is capable of detecting ICO scammers with an accuracy of 83%.

This is just amazing work by whoever was behind creating the algorithm as this will surely help in weeding out the scams from the truly potential ICOs. 83% accuracy is pretty decent considering the number of ICOs that have been turning out to be scams in recent days.

The algorithm examined more than 2000 ICO projects, life expectancy and price changes for the crypto currency, whitepaper, constituent team, GitHub repository, websites and other information from the network.
This development should greatly help investors safely invest their capital in a truly existing and profitable ICO, and also analyze and give an overall assessment of the market.

Definitely going to sort out most of the the general queries of investors regarding projects scaling into the future. Taking the most important things into consideration while also cross verifying sources is just the way to go in finding the shady ones and putting them on a blacklist by alerting investors about the same.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: wuvdoll on March 17, 2018, 10:42:31 AM
Artificial intelligence on the side of justice. A group of scientists from Michigan, Stanford and the University of California developed the ICORATING algorithm, which is capable of detecting ICO scammers with an accuracy of 83%.
The algorithm examined more than 2000 ICO projects, life expectancy and price changes for the crypto currency, whitepaper, constituent team, GitHub repository, websites and other information from the network.
This development should greatly help investors safely invest their capital in a truly existing and profitable ICO, and also analyze and give an overall assessment of the market.
Are you one of the team member who developed this AI or algorithm? i tried searching for an article on this, but couldn't find anything. would you mind sharing more information or an article (if there is one).
I really would not mind getting some information on this as well. However 83% accuracy sounds a little bit low. 17% is a lot and knowing that there may be some error in spotting some good ones to be bad ones within this few percentage is not a good one.

All the above, if it is for real, it should at least help in a way for the investors who may care anyway but I feel for me to be able to use this, it should be 99 or nothing. Come on! I have even been doing better with 100% accuracy so far in detecting scams, but not the life expectancy thing though. ;D


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: dreamHeaven on March 20, 2018, 11:07:33 AM
Welcome to the world where robotics and AI is changing a lot of things. I feel it would assist a lot than becoming an enemy anyway as it could at least help make a lot of processes faster and make humans lazy eventually. But I doubt in near future AI will be enough capable to tackle the market fluctuations to get one trader accurate predictions. It will take more time before we can use AI for trading.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: Beparanf on March 20, 2018, 11:12:39 AM
Welcome to the world where robotics and AI is changing a lot of things. I feel it would assist a lot than becoming an enemy anyway as it could at least help make a lot of processes faster and make humans lazy eventually. But I doubt in near future AI will be enough capable to tackle the market fluctuations to get one trader accurate predictions. It will take more time before we can use AI for trading.

Actually market price prediction is already being a subjected to an AI experiment. This is fitted to be used in AI experiment since market price is just based on move in exchange price. But I disagree about OP news regarding ICO review since AI will just review it base on the standard that their program set it and what if the standard set by the programmer is very poor. It will cause a danger for all the investor


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: Leonard2016 on March 20, 2018, 11:39:56 AM
This kind of technology will revolutine the process. Complex decision-making involving a multitude of variables becomes possible with Artificial Intelligence and improved efficiency in business decision-making a customer satisfaction.
I know some project like OBIZCOIN that want to use this sort of technology.
Obizcoin?
I need to check it out , There are not a lot of coins using artificial intelligence , and it must has done something diffrent , must be interesting.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: macchiato on March 20, 2018, 12:55:54 PM
It would be better if you include an article's link that will verify this. Regardless, I don't think it is impossible to develop a technology like this because AI's are being utilized to various applications already. This will be of great help to all of us and it will serve as the policemen in the crypto community.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: Arwinkim on March 20, 2018, 01:48:49 PM
Is it accessible by the public? Unfortunately you didn't provide the link. A.I has been around to help us ranking tokens performance. But never heard this could be implemented in ICOs with such good accuracy. This is very helpful for investors who are finding legit projects.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: Arz26 on March 20, 2018, 02:14:58 PM
For me it is a computer or robot perform equal to or better than normal human computational ability in accuracy, capacity, and speed. Artificial intelligence includes computer playing , expert in systems or in language used to avoid highlighting one of the tracks being pursued at the time for the field of mind.   


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: Arz26 on March 20, 2018, 02:52:43 PM
For me it is a computer or robot perform equal to or better than normal human computational ability in accuracy, capacity, and speed. Artificial intelligence includes computer playing , expert in systems or in language used to avoid highlighting one of the tracks being pursued at the time for the field of mind.   


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: aervin11 on March 20, 2018, 02:54:22 PM
Artificial intelligence on the side of justice. A group of scientists from Michigan, Stanford and the University of California developed the ICORATING algorithm, which is capable of detecting ICO scammers with an accuracy of 83%.
The algorithm examined more than 2000 ICO projects, life expectancy and price changes for the crypto currency, whitepaper, constituent team, GitHub repository, websites and other information from the network.
This development should greatly help investors safely invest their capital in a truly existing and profitable ICO, and also analyze and give an overall assessment of the market.

I hope they would fund their project by conducting ICO also  ;D
Is that project now open for beta? We want to see how it works and who is the team behind it for doing a great job.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: raven7886 on March 20, 2018, 04:53:55 PM
Where have you read the article ? What is the source of your context ?
There are many rumors that keep on spreading these days.Kindly update the post with the source so that users could believe what you are saying.
Although AI has entered the market and has showed us its great ability, it's tough to believe something like this. It would be really good though if something like this would be happening since investors would be benefitting a lot from it. If it were true, it would still be a little risky since the accuracy rate is 83% in which case some of the legit ICOs might get a bad name because of it.
How would someone just come here to tell us what some people are doing without even mentioning names and a lot of people have been requesting for article link without no response from the guy. At least, for news like this, there should always be a form of reference to make use of. I know AI is going to be changing a lot of things, but there are just some things that I believe they are just too good to be true and this is one of them.

With respect to what the OP has stated, I really do not see how he would give us information such as this and then not put something that one would even be able to search some details about it on Google.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: atjiat on March 20, 2018, 06:18:26 PM
For me it is a computer or robot perform equal to or better than normal human computational ability in accuracy, capacity, and speed. Artificial intelligence includes computer playing , expert in systems or in language used to avoid highlighting one of the tracks being pursued at the time for the field of mind.   
Recently, all very strongly began to rely on artificial intelligence, in love with the life of a person using new technologies, but in some cases there is a small distrust of artificial intelligence.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: HappyMod on March 20, 2018, 07:38:07 PM
That is amazing. There are no limits with Artificial Intelligence and this shows it once again!

There are several huge players in the field regarding AI on blockchain. Singularity, Neuromation, Cindication, and many more! As Rawafe mentioned complex decision-making will be possible on another scale that we've experienced before. This is something huge and there is much to explore and develop.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: davinchi on March 25, 2018, 01:41:54 PM
You did not even put any link to a website or a name to even know what you are talking about. I would actually love to see the way this is going to work anyway and how the algorithm, will be able to help with all that you have mentioned with such as accuracy and like you have said, it should give investors a chance to make use of and also help reduce the number of scammers. However, regulation is around the corner anyway, so scam will still reduce, but the life expectancy? I am really looking forward to see how that would work.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: Sock778 on March 26, 2018, 09:40:37 AM
You did not even put any link to a website or a name to even know what you are talking about. I would actually love to see the way this is going to work anyway and how the algorithm, will be able to help with all that you have mentioned with such as accuracy and like you have said, it should give investors a chance to make use of and also help reduce the number of scammers. However, regulation is around the corner anyway, so scam will still reduce, but the life expectancy? I am really looking forward to see how that would work.

I don't think ICo regulation is around the corner. It should take at least a year. THat's a century in crypto time.

Also, even with regulations, there will always be scam ICOs out there. Just like penny stocks.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: kisscoin on March 26, 2018, 11:16:47 AM
Progress does not stand still. We are moving at a breakneck speed and sometimes do not even notice or just do not know how much is moving technology and development in the field of artificial intelligence. At the moment, the artificial intelligence seems unreal, but he's already at full speed is embedded in our lives.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: yugyug on March 26, 2018, 02:51:20 PM
Artificial Intellegence are dependent on the feeds of data from servers, there are still no perfect AI as of this generation AI begun developing during the dawn of computer era but still until now none perfected it. AI for ICOs seems not reliable since it is still in infancy stage, AI or bots for stock markets had already been developed but still only few are relying on the data given. So, AI for ICOs still not worthy to rely this time.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: adjk7 on March 27, 2018, 05:37:52 AM
Blockchain and artificial intelligence projects are very hot now. I think they can have significant development. More and more people are paying attention to this.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: ss890 on March 27, 2018, 05:59:25 AM
Artificial intelligence on the side of justice. A group of scientists from Michigan, Stanford and the University of California developed the ICORATING algorithm, which is capable of detecting ICO scammers with an accuracy of 83%.
The algorithm examined more than 2000 ICO projects, life expectancy and price changes for the crypto currency, whitepaper, constituent team, GitHub repository, websites and other information from the network.
This development should greatly help investors safely invest their capital in a truly existing and profitable ICO, and also analyze and give an overall assessment of the market.

In general they took everything that we humans do and inserted that into the AI form. That was good move but I really dont understand how the AI works with the help of white paper and roadmap? Its not the digital form or values which AI can really understand that in first place. I mean it is readable form and its just written piece of paper. I know AI can be very advance and learn things from their but wondering how their algorithm works in the first place. Its really good to see how things work now a days and we ahem moved from the human intelligence to the AI one in short period of time. We use to dig the gold yesterday and today AI works for us and tells us whats good for us. Interesting.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: Nerman on March 27, 2018, 08:47:53 AM
I hope the OP can post the source it will be a nice read.

Anyway if this is true i agree that it will help a lot of investors to avoid those scam ICO with it success rate i can be at ease to invest on the ICO that was predicted to be legit.

I hope the developers can make this service abailable as soon as they can.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: Taltic on March 27, 2018, 12:54:35 PM
Links OP links. OP you put out there an interesting topic and you didn't give us any other answer or links on this topic. In the meantime, someone posted a link.
83% is a surprise for me. That is a very good accuracy with this first AI. It needs to go higher, but still, it got my attention.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: koralan on March 27, 2018, 09:58:18 PM
I am investing in the EFFECT.AI project, which is also a project to develop artificial intelligence services. Project EFFECT.AI is receiving great attention from the investment community because it has very good ideas, professional management team, using NEO platform is very supportive. The project is still in the process of selling ICO, you can refer to the official website of the project: https://www.effect.ai/


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: anntlevel on March 29, 2018, 05:27:57 AM
Blockchain and artificial intelligence projects are very hot now. I think they can have significant development. More and more people are paying attention to this.
Artificial intelligence is always having more attention from people because it will be significantly playing big role in reducing efforts of people. When blockchain technology will be combined with artificial intelligence, I guess it will be more effective one. I am excitedly expecting such development to get impact in my personal life too.


Title: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Post by: Jeronimo78 on March 30, 2018, 10:36:51 PM
Great service. I would love to see some links, though. I hear there is a plenty of data from ICO Rating regarding such interesting projects as ChronoBank and TaaS. I think they analyzed We Power recently? I want to hear more from the researchers themselves, alright?