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Other => Politics & Society => Topic started by: MoonShadow on July 26, 2011, 12:45:53 AM



Title: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: MoonShadow on July 26, 2011, 12:45:53 AM
"I propose, then, a seemingly drastic but actually far less destructive way of paying off the public debt at a single blow: out-right debt repudiation. Consider this question: why should the poor, battered citizens of Russia or Poland or the other ex-Communist countries be bound by the debts contracted by their former Communist masters? In the Communist situation, the injustice is clear: that citizens struggling for freedom and for a free-market economy should be taxed to pay for debts contracted by the monstrous former ruling class. But this injustice only differs by degree from "normal" public debt. For, conversely, why should the Communist government of the Soviet Union have been bound by debts contracted by the Czarist government they hated and overthrew? And why should we, struggling American citizens of today, be bound by debts created by a past ruling elite who contracted these debts at our expense? One of the cogent arguments against paying blacks "reparations" for past slavery is that we, the living, were not slaveholders. Similarly, we the living did not contract for either the past or the present debts incurred by the politicians and bureaucrats in Washington."

http://mises.org/daily/1423

This is the only way to save the US FRN, which is the only scenario that Bitcoin (or some derivitive) doesn't become the next international trade currency.



Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: Rassah on July 26, 2011, 06:03:05 PM
Because, unlike the people in Soviet Union, people in America had a choice and a say in their debt, and are thus fully responsible for things like wanting a war in the Middle East and supporting politicians who pushed for it, or voting to approve local and state government projects.


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: MoonShadow on July 26, 2011, 06:36:19 PM
Because, unlike the people in Soviet Union, people in America had a choice and a say in their debt, and are thus fully responsible for things like wanting a war in the Middle East and supporting politicians who pushed for it, or voting to approve local and state government projects.

I didn't have a say.  Am I responsible?  Collective responsibility is an evil fiction.


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: em3rgentOrdr on July 26, 2011, 06:54:30 PM
Because, unlike the people in Soviet Union, people in America had a choice and a say in their debt, and are thus fully responsible for things like wanting a war in the Middle East and supporting politicians who pushed for it, or voting to approve local and state government projects.

Lol!  Yeah, of course.  I forgot we live in a democracy where we are the government and there fore simply owe it to ourselves, right?


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: MoonShadow on July 26, 2011, 06:58:05 PM
Because, unlike the people in Soviet Union, people in America had a choice and a say in their debt, and are thus fully responsible for things like wanting a war in the Middle East and supporting politicians who pushed for it, or voting to approve local and state government projects.

Lol!  Yeah, of course.  I forgot we live in a democracy where we are the government and there fore simply owe it to ourselves, right?

Sure, as long as the 'owe' is the taxpayer and the 'ourselves' is the entire class of government parasites.  Under very rare circumstances is a actual net taxpayer also a beneficiary of government largess.


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: Littleshop on July 27, 2011, 01:47:54 AM
You can repudiate the debt personally.  Leave the country and find one with less or no debt. 


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: myrkul on July 27, 2011, 01:55:22 AM
You can repudiate the debt personally.  Leave the country and find one with less or no debt. 

Heh. You're funny.Tell another one.


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: newMeat1 on July 27, 2011, 02:53:07 AM
haha, I imagine that repudiating the debt would piss a lot of people off. Funny... but probably not a good thing. Kind of like Texas seceding


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: em3rgentOrdr on July 27, 2011, 03:04:24 AM
You can repudiate the debt personally.  Leave the country and find one with less or no debt. 


:D


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: Fakeman on July 27, 2011, 04:15:37 AM
If you're leaving the US for this purpose, don't forget to renounce your citizenship too.


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: MoonShadow on July 27, 2011, 04:18:20 AM
If you're leaving the US for this purpose, don't forget to renounce your citizenship too.

That's actually pretty hard to do.


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: MoonShadow on July 27, 2011, 04:20:23 AM
haha, I imagine that repudiating the debt would piss a lot of people off. Funny... but probably not a good thing. Kind of like Texas seceding

Like anything else, whether the repudiation of the debt is a good or bad thing depends upon who you are just as whether the secession of the Republic of Texas is good or bad depending mostly upon which side of the Texas border one happens to live on.


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: myrkul on July 27, 2011, 04:33:07 AM
If you're leaving the US for this purpose, don't forget to renounce your citizenship too.

That's actually pretty hard to do.

Mike Gogulski, who's on here somewhere, did just that. He's now Stateless. He detailed it on his blog, and yeah, it was not fun.


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: GideonGono on July 27, 2011, 12:21:30 PM
If you're leaving the US for this purpose, don't forget to renounce your citizenship too.

That's actually pretty hard to do.

Mike Gogulski, who's on here somewhere, did just that. He's now Stateless. He detailed it on his blog, and yeah, it was not fun.

What happened to him? Where does he live?


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: myrkul on July 27, 2011, 04:42:12 PM
If you're leaving the US for this purpose, don't forget to renounce your citizenship too.

That's actually pretty hard to do.

Mike Gogulski, who's on here somewhere, did just that. He's now Stateless. He detailed it on his blog, and yeah, it was not fun.

What happened to him? Where does he live?

He's doing quite well for himself, here's his blog: http://www.nostate.com/


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: lemonginger on July 28, 2011, 02:23:58 AM
Global Jubilee?


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: GideonGono on July 28, 2011, 10:37:13 AM
He's doing quite well for himself, here's his blog: http://www.nostate.com/

I've been to that site before but i never bothered to read about the guys story. Damn, that guy has mad balls.


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: Hawker on July 28, 2011, 12:55:41 PM
The US debt is about $14 trillion of which about $11 trillion is owed to US citizens. 

I can't see anyone who hopes to be re-elected refusing to repay that money. 



Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: MoonShadow on July 28, 2011, 01:48:12 PM
The US debt is about $14 trillion of which about $11 trillion is owed to US citizens. 

I can't see anyone who hopes to be re-elected refusing to repay that money. 



The vast majority of that $11 Trillion that is "owed" to US citizens is owed to Baby Boomers.  When the Millinials grow up, they will be a larger voting block than the Boomers; but before then there will be a point that we cross paths, as the Boomers die off and Millinials reach 18 years there will come a point that the votes are in balance.  It's this point that those who hope to get (re)elected will be pandering to the Millinal generation.  And if there is one thing that is consistant about that generation, they identify much more with their age peers than their grandparents.  Once one guy gets elected with a platform that can be boiled down to "screw the old, I want mine" then it's all just a matter of time.


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: Hawker on July 28, 2011, 02:30:39 PM
The US debt is about $14 trillion of which about $11 trillion is owed to US citizens. 

I can't see anyone who hopes to be re-elected refusing to repay that money. 



The vast majority of that $11 Trillion that is "owed" to US citizens is owed to Baby Boomers.  When the Millinials grow up, they will be a larger voting block than the Boomers; but before then there will be a point that we cross paths, as the Boomers die off and Millinials reach 18 years there will come a point that the votes are in balance.  It's this point that those who hope to get (re)elected will be pandering to the Millinal generation.  And if there is one thing that is consistant about that generation, they identify much more with their age peers than their grandparents.  Once one guy gets elected with a platform that can be boiled down to "screw the old, I want mine" then it's all just a matter of time.

Very true.  But "Vote for me and I'll help you steal your Granny's savings!" is hardly an election winner is it ?  Its far more likely that inflation will erode the debt in a slow but sure manner. 


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: Rassah on July 28, 2011, 04:22:46 PM
The US debt is about $14 trillion of which about $11 trillion is owed to US citizens. 

I can't see anyone who hopes to be re-elected refusing to repay that money. 



The vast majority of that $11 Trillion that is "owed" to US citizens is owed to Baby Boomers.  When the Millinials grow up, they will be a larger voting block than the Boomers; but before then there will be a point that we cross paths, as the Boomers die off and Millinials reach 18 years there will come a point that the votes are in balance.  It's this point that those who hope to get (re)elected will be pandering to the Millinal generation.  And if there is one thing that is consistant about that generation, they identify much more with their age peers than their grandparents.  Once one guy gets elected with a platform that can be boiled down to "screw the old, I want mine" then it's all just a matter of time.

Problem is, those grandparents are still Millinials' grandparents, and those Millinials would likely still have the government support their grandparents than have them move in with them.


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: MoonShadow on July 28, 2011, 04:24:47 PM
The US debt is about $14 trillion of which about $11 trillion is owed to US citizens. 

I can't see anyone who hopes to be re-elected refusing to repay that money. 



The vast majority of that $11 Trillion that is "owed" to US citizens is owed to Baby Boomers.  When the Millinials grow up, they will be a larger voting block than the Boomers; but before then there will be a point that we cross paths, as the Boomers die off and Millinials reach 18 years there will come a point that the votes are in balance.  It's this point that those who hope to get (re)elected will be pandering to the Millinal generation.  And if there is one thing that is consistant about that generation, they identify much more with their age peers than their grandparents.  Once one guy gets elected with a platform that can be boiled down to "screw the old, I want mine" then it's all just a matter of time.

Problem is, those grandparents are still Millinials' grandparents, and those Millinials would likely still have the government support their grandparents than have them move in with them.

They might, but Boomers are too proud to move in with their children or grandchildren like their own grandparents often did.  So I really don't see this happening on any great scale.


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: MoonShadow on July 28, 2011, 04:33:53 PM
The US debt is about $14 trillion of which about $11 trillion is owed to US citizens. 

I can't see anyone who hopes to be re-elected refusing to repay that money. 



The vast majority of that $11 Trillion that is "owed" to US citizens is owed to Baby Boomers.  When the Millinials grow up, they will be a larger voting block than the Boomers; but before then there will be a point that we cross paths, as the Boomers die off and Millinials reach 18 years there will come a point that the votes are in balance.  It's this point that those who hope to get (re)elected will be pandering to the Millinal generation.  And if there is one thing that is consistant about that generation, they identify much more with their age peers than their grandparents.  Once one guy gets elected with a platform that can be boiled down to "screw the old, I want mine" then it's all just a matter of time.

Very true.  But "Vote for me and I'll help you steal your Granny's savings!" is hardly an election winner is it ?  Its far more likely that inflation will erode the debt in a slow but sure manner. 

1) It would never be presented like that and...

2) that's not how it really is anyway.

As I have already mentioned, Granny doesn't have any savings, because the government has been robbing her savings the entire time to pay for her parents' retirement and other current costs.  So, in the long run, the Millinials are going to look at it like ending SS is just ending an ongoing fraud.  They might feel for their own grandparents, but most middle class Millinials grew up with parents who were finacially burdened, while their nearly retired grandparents had accumulated vast assests, regardless of how good their retirement plan was.  Most of them aren't going to buy the crap that ending FICA taxes upon themselves (thus ending SS) is going to actually result in Granny eating dog food.  More likely she might have to move out of the $350,000 home that was paid for and into either a much smaller apartment or a retirement community.  Granny doesn't drive anywhere but church and the grocery store in that Caddy her late husband bought anyway.


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: Hawker on July 28, 2011, 05:07:58 PM
I think you misunderstand what the government debt is.  In simple terms, its people's savings.  If the government defaults, it is breaking a contract with its own people.  Now we both know this happens all the time in poor countries but its not necessarily a wise route unless you want the US to become a poor country too.


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: MoonShadow on July 28, 2011, 08:25:28 PM
I think you misunderstand what the government debt is.  In simple terms, its people's savings.  If the government defaults, it is breaking a contract with its own people.  Now we both know this happens all the time in poor countries but its not necessarily a wise route unless you want the US to become a poor country too.

Savings equals capital.

Debt does not equal capital.

Therefore government debt is not savings.

Any such savings has already been stolen.  Furthermore, if the repudiation of government debt results in the nation becomeing 'poor' by any metric, then it already is and simply hasn't come to that conclusion yet.


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: cdnbcguy on August 08, 2011, 11:52:40 PM
They won't repudiate it, what they'll do is pay it off with dollars they printed that are valueless, therefore burning their creditors.

They will then bring in a new currency, at one New Dollar to 1,000 old ones and start again.


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: Hawker on August 11, 2011, 07:43:56 PM
I think you misunderstand what the government debt is.  In simple terms, its people's savings.  If the government defaults, it is breaking a contract with its own people.  Now we both know this happens all the time in poor countries but its not necessarily a wise route unless you want the US to become a poor country too.

Savings equals capital.

Debt does not equal capital.

Therefore government debt is not savings.

Any such savings has already been stolen.  Furthermore, if the repudiation of government debt results in the nation becomeing 'poor' by any metric, then it already is and simply hasn't come to that conclusion yet.

Debt does not equal capital. ????

What are you talking about?  If I have 1000 and its invested in a government bond, the government debt is my capital.

Think before you post.


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: NghtRppr on August 11, 2011, 11:01:58 PM
Think before you post.

It's bad enough that you're wrong, that's forgivable, but being an arrogant douche about it is just pathetic.

A government bond is a loan to the government. There is a difference between savings and a loan. If you think that an IOU is a form of wealth, you're an idiot.

Think before you post.


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: Peripeteia on August 11, 2011, 11:53:49 PM
I think you misunderstand what the government debt is.  In simple terms, its people's savings.  If the government defaults, it is breaking a contract with its own people.  Now we both know this happens all the time in poor countries but its not necessarily a wise route unless you want the US to become a poor country too.

I live in a poor country, the Philippines, but we've never defaulted on our debt. Most of our debt though is to foreign lenders. We were under the Marcos dictatorship for decades and have a lot of bloated crony bank accounts filled with public money, as well as a lot of white elephants (we have a nuclear power plant which was never used but that the government still dutifully paid billions of dollars for), to show for it.

When democracy was reestablished by a peaceful revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDSA_Revolution_of_1986 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDSA_Revolution_of_1986)) our creditors gave the new government the option to write off our debts since most of the funds lent to Marcos went to him personally (and were used by him for his personal gain) and not the nation. The government refused though and said the Philippines will pay as, despite how the loans were misused, they were still taken out in the name of the Republic of the Philippines. The name and reputation of the country were on the line and if the government contracted a loan then there was no ifs or buts about it, we would pay.

This debt burden caused a lot of economic hardship and still does. Even now, the proposed national budget for 2012 has debt payments at around 20% of the entire budget. Still, we pay, and continue to pay, because it is the name of our country at stake. We may be poor but we are not thieves who promise to pay and then don't.

I'm not arguing with the point that poor countries are more likely to default, that's a fact. There are some poor countries though who will endure great sacrifice in order to meet obligations they contracted, to prove that they are not beggars who receive handouts but upright citizens of the world community who receive loans and pay back those loans.

It's fashionable now for citizens of rich countries, Greece, America, Italy, ad infinitum, to complain that they should just forget about the nation's public debt because they personally have not benefited from it. When I see these scenes I can't help but think what they are afraid of is not penury but sacrifice. The average citizen of the first world enjoys an immensely comfortable lifestyle compared to those in the developing world. You have benefited from it, in advanced forms of social policy like social nets (ie. entitlements) and reinforcement of the rule of law, to very basic things like being assured that your roads won't devolve into a moonscape of potholes after a strong rain.

Now that the bill has come in for all this largesse, citizens of rich countries just want to wash their hands of the whole mess and walk away?



Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: MoonShadow on August 13, 2011, 05:50:06 AM
That was noble, to accept the burdens imposed upon your nation by unscrupulous leadership.  However, the situation is not comparable.  You are a small nation that owned most of it to other nations.  We are a large nation that owes most of our debt to our own eldest population.  In effect, the youth were saddled with debt obligations owed to their own grandparents before they were even born.  This is fundamentally unjust.  Moreso than even the Philipino people being saddled with debt owed to other nations without their consent.


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: Hawker on August 19, 2011, 01:26:03 PM
Think before you post.

It's bad enough that you're wrong, that's forgivable, but being an arrogant douche about it is just pathetic.

A government bond is a loan to the government. There is a difference between savings and a loan. If you think that an IOU is a form of wealth, you're an idiot.

Think before you post.

Are you seriously saying that someone with 10 million dollars in Treasury bills does not possess 10 million dollars as a form of wealth?

You really have not thought that through. 


Title: Re: Repudiate the Debt!
Post by: joulesbeef on August 19, 2011, 01:39:24 PM
unless you want to overthrow the country, you are responsible,it is in the constitution and and you have benefited from americans debt spending whether you admit it or not

and if a tbill bill isnt wealth.. neither are dollar bills, neither are stocks, neither is YOUR BANK ACCOUNT.. which is nothing but bits that say the bank owes you what is in there.

Some of the radical rhetoric from all political ideologies taken to the extreme gets rather old.