Bitcoin Forum

Prologue: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316945.0

This is a placeholder, just not to have stupid trolls to troll my thread and actions.
Anyway, it looks like that no-one is interested in going on in this but me. Or rather, many are interested, but no-one wants to spend more on the black hole HF probably is.

No problem, i will go ahead alone. If i'm right and after that i paid lawyers by my own you want to join the cause, you will be free to do so.

I'm a student with an order and would like to at least consider my options

Your link links to here,  anyway I would expect a summary  of some sort.

Ops, you are right. Updated the link, and a summary is incoming as soon as i hear back from the lawyer (or maybe before that, we will see, i would like to write a good summary but i would also like to go on with a project of mine that is taking me completely). I got some good suggestions tonight.

You had me at "gathering funds".

</troll>

Dear cedivad,

We published a shipping window between Point A (end of Oct) and Point B (Dec 31) and committed to issuing full refunds if we ship outside of this window (IE after Dec 31).

What you're seeing is a narrowing of that window, and honesty on the company's part in communicating with our customers.
We believe that to be a good thing.

Naturally, we'd love to hear whatever you'd like to say - and if you feel we are doing things wrong, please tell us how we may do better.

That extends to any of our customers, people who are not yet our customers, and people who are not and never will be

Thanks!

HF

PS to answer your other point regarding the ROI calculations, some points we think are relevant include

1- We do not control the hashrate
2- Despite that, we came up with the MPP as a way to further support our customer's success.
3- We then gave MPP protection free of charge to all batch 1 customers, who were not expecting it
     and were charged for it.
4- MPP protection is intentionally denominated in BTC, not USD.  
    Given the direction BTC prices are taking, it is possible our early or late customers will achieve ROI in
    less that 90 days - and still receive MPP protection from us.  No charge, no questions.

We are proud to be the first ASIC company to do that for its customers.
We're happy to see other ASIC companies follow our lead (down to copying "miner protection program" word-for-word); if it leads to ASIC companies treating their customers better than has historically been the case, we are all for it.

Best,

-HF_CL

Holding peoples money until the end of Dec really sucks.  If people want to get out due to the difficulty screaming upward like nuts then people should have the option to do so.

HF_CL, first of all, thank you for showing up. There are many reasons why i disagree with you. It will take a few minutes, but let's go trough them all.

You always promised a shipping date of October. When customers called you 3 days before the delay, you where saying that everything was on track for a delivery within 5-10 days. Many customers (about half of batch 1, or the customers that bought during the first half of the timeframe where batch 1 was sold), where promised a "Point A" shipping date on the website, and no "Point B" was visible on the ToS.
So, no, you never promised a shipping date between point a and point b. What an elaborate way of describing such an easy concept, anyway. What you promised where full refunds if failed to delivery before point b (we all know that if you arrive at point b without delivering you will be bankrupt). This however doesn't change the fact that you (will be) late on your self promised shipping date, and that entitles your customers to a full refund. Regardless, and more importantly with many fewer points of discussions, your contract doesn't say anything about denying customers to cancel their orders and to get a prompt full refund. I guess that there is not such a point simply because it would be illegal and a self admission of guilt.
It's a law, and usually legal entities has to obey to laws, right? Independently with what they write on their contracts.

I have to use either Orwell or Kafka to describe how much i do believe that you do believe that this is a good thing.

Sure. Thanks for the proposal. These are my suggestions:
1) Start by proving us that you are legit. You showed us pics of the sierra case, and that's good, but not good enough. You should have the boards ready (everything but the substrate is on track, remember?), so, if you are legit and where ready to ship, only delayed by a problem with the substrate, you should be able to show us pics of the boards. Please do it, you also promised to do so weeks ago by your own will, but we have yet to see those pics. My conclusion is that they don't exist. They are not yet ready because they where not needed for this point, but for 20 days from now. My second conclusion is that the problem with the substrate is just an "avalon 2.0" excuse, where they where lamenting lacks of "capacitors and resistors" in China. We both know that Avalon was lying, and it was only an excuse to delay their batch 2 to their customers, that if delivered in time, would have ROId a lot. So, and with this i will conclude our point, while Avalon couldn't prove the lack of Resistors&Capacitors in China, you could be able to prove the problems you are having with the substrate, and you would partially restore the trust of your customers; we are not bastards, we understand that problems could occur down the line, but that doesn't allow you to invent excuses Avalon-like; you have to show proof of them.

2) You are selling a product overpriced at least 10 times to your first Batch customers (i would call them yours VC). These customers, due to your lack of diligence, will lose, in the best case as of now, by supposing a mid-November delivery, 75% of their investment. That's not acceptable. You are refusing to help your customers in any way. You could for example fix the date of beginning of the MPP to the first of november (or better, the date where they where promised to ship in their invoices), and, add a fixed point on delivery with the MPP. As of now, the MPP only says that we will get 2 times that hashrate we would have needed to roi, up to 4 times the initial hashrate, 3 months later. But there are no fixed delivery dates for you. Being something incredibly dependent by the delivery date, not putting a delivery date there seems like adding irony at your customers' losses. When i meet John at the bitcoin conference@Amsterdam, he said that there would have been no problem to move my order to the second batch of sierra, "i don't see how that could be a problem", but later, he always ignored my requests to do so. Now, a second batch sierra is delivered 10 days later and costs 1/3rd of our BJs. Is that fair in your book? Given your closure, it looks like so.

3) i wrote soo much and i have yet to answer the bs you have at the end of your post, so i will stop here. If as you proposed others want to join the discussion, please do it.

That seems like a point you will have to bring up in a court of law, not here. We know that. Thanks for sharing anyway.

Everyone on this forum agrees that the MPP, as of now, is one of the most comic pages of this forum. We both now that as it is right now, it's useless.
Reasoning:
1) 2 times the hashrate in 3 months, while the difficulty increases with the actual difficulty adjustment in 3 months would be 10 times+.
2) up to 4 times the needed hashrate to roi, so that even with a 2x multiplier, it will kick in full time given the minimal revenues batch 1 customers will make.
3) no fixed delivery date for the extra hashrate. This one is a really bad one, maybe the worst of them all. With this point alone, the MPP is useless.

Two incredibly big lays in this quote.
1) I ordered my batch 1 with the MPP already promised. As did many other, the MPP helped you to sell out the first batch, you where struggling at it before.
2) We paid for it. One just has to look at the price difference from the november BJ, with or without MPP. The ones with the MPP have a price in line with the BJ of batch 1, while the ones without MPP have a price of about half of that.

I invested to have a BTC return over a BTC investment, i really don't care about the exchange rate. I wanted a BTC ROI, not an USD one. Who cares about USD in this community anyway? At this point, anyway, BTC would have to go to 1000$+ for us to have a USD ROI.

Btw, those points looks like to have been email-formatted (max 70 characters per line as per RFC), where they sent via email to complaining customers too? I don't remember to have received them.

I won't even comment this marketing bs. Please retrain from inflating your posts with, it would be appreciated. You already sold a metric ton, now you just have to deliver.

Have a nice time answering, as i did, HF_CL. Thank you for taking some time to pass by here and have a nice day.

MPP should be from the day of shipment!

I'm really glad to havn't bought anything from HF. Same shit different company.

Sorry but I think you are not getting the point that we are trying to explain.

The MPP is ok and perfect. Lot of people including me went with HF just because of this.

The point is that you didn't make avaliable the two range of products from the first day. You waited long time to be almost every BJ sold and then you put on sale a machine with x3 hashing power with just one month "expected"  difference for 7000$. Even worse, you made 3 days of sale so you could buy a sierra for the BJ price almost.

After this lot of people tried to change the BJ order into a sierra because of course we expected delays and its from far a better choice. But you refuse to make that exchange long time ago.Now with the delay there is just 10 days between the two batches and that taking in account the "mid november" exact shipping day given by HF.

You think is fair that someone that puts money and faith into your company in the first batch will be receiving 3 times less hashing power that someone that comes after ?
Just in case, I got nothing against 2 batch customers as they made the right choice, so congratulations  ;)

The big point here is that I am not complaining about that the hashrate is going so high that I may not ROI (that is something we accept when we decide to go mining), the thing is that YOU are the ones that are not taking of the first batch customers, not the market, not the hashrate and not the BTC. Its pretty simple in my head:
- 400GH in mid november + MPP . Lets say we havent ROI so 1,6TH for example in late February. This taking in acount that in February we will have to purchase again cooling, psus, cases and of course wait for the units to be shiped
- 1,2TH in late november

Both at the same price, lets make a poll to see what people (customers and not customers ) do prefer ?

Edit: just to make it worse, when you should be close to shipping the BJs you post an update of a sierra. Just no words for that  ???

I have two BJ on order. The way HF is dealing with this is unacceptable. I have no background in legal stuff but I'd join in the cost sharing should you figure out a way to bring this to court.

I will ask to share the costs only after i have a good feedback from a lawyer and we decide to proceed. I want to hear from him what my real options are.

Icebreaker, i have to make an international wire before having that answer. Since that i'm not from the USA, it could take a while. A precious while...

Guess what, asshole - it doesn't matter what you're "committed" to, you're legally required to issue refunds to people who want them until you ship the product.

If you deny refunds, you're breaking the law, period. It doesn't matter what you consider "fair" or not.

(Of course, lawsuits take such a long time that it should be pretty easy for you to ship long before a lawsuit winds it way through the courts, unlike the situation with BFL.)

You guys made numerous representations that you expected to ship in October, even though it was pretty obvious that wouldn't happen and then tried to slip in the "by December 31st" guarantee into the fine print without telling anyone.

What are the chances of 100% bitcoin refund?

I hope you guys bury these pricks.  They're lining their own pockets by screwing every single one of their customers' chances of ROI, and they will also screw the rest of us already trying to break even on ASIC gear when they finally do ship.

HashFast has specifically marketed different prices for different delivery dates. This implies a realization that there will be reduced ROI for later delivery. The lack of a price adjustment/refund for delayed orders is a blatant fleecing of customers. Any statements to the contrary is marketing hand-waving bullshit. The honest path would have been for HashFast to simply admit they need the money to pay for NRE and are unwilling to make a price adjustment or refund...not to pretend Dec 31st is an acceptable delivery date.



HashFast, you need to stop making these kind of statements about looking at ROI in USD. You're making hardware to mine Bitcoins and ROI is measured in BTC, period. You lose credibility every time you make a statement like this...it really sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about.

^^ I've yet to read the link in its whole and it could be only useless ad hoc created content to rank high on google, for what i understood so far. Anyway, i will post it here.

As projected, the mid november delivery dateline was only the last lie and as per last announcement, we are now looking at a mid december timeline. That's 15 days before the refund timeline, that was promised to be of the same btc amount of our purchases. We will probably see how much they lied to us on that point too, if they fail to deliver by the end of the year and we will ask for a refund. (and btc will be at 500$).

However, the reason i'm writing this post, is that they openly admitted that they are reciving the silicon from TSMC only on those days. See their last blogpost for more info.

They are, in other words, openly admitting that they lied to us from the beginning, it would have been impossible to ship the first batch of orders at the end of October, if they are receiving the silicon at the firsts days of november (additional time is required to have the chips ready, at least 10 days, 30 in this case).

What i wanted to be able to prove with a court order to show the contract, was openly admitted by them.

They don't even care anymore, they know to be guilty and that we have all the proof needed, but yet, they don't care.

PS: HASHF.AT is a lovely domain name, isn't it?

Just to clarify, it's "lied" to "laid".

I've used justanswer.com before and they are genuine 'experts' answering your questions.

Thanks, i even tried to look it up before. Makes sense.

They lied. The whole time. There is a lot we can do legally.
And they cannot issue USD refunds, since that they always promised BTC refunds.

Indeed, you are right. The product was priced in USD and so, we should only get an USD refund.
However, they always promised, several times here in the forum, that if refunds where to happen, they would have been of the original BTC amount.
Also, when an user of this forum went to visit them one week ago, they repeated that point. If refunds where to happen, they would have been for the original BTC amount.

So, while i completely agree with you that we are not gonna see BTC refunds, i'm awaiting for when they will issue USD refunds and they will have lied another time.



Dear HF, Cointerra didn't ask 15$/GH for an October delivery. They are asking 3$/GH. Can you spot the difference? You lied knowing what you where doing, they are simply late.

Also, please not with how much attention they fail to give a deadline for shipping the MPP, and they only talk about the "benefits", and how they are calculated. We all know that regardless of when you ship us the BJ, we would have to receive 4 times the hashrate anyway, at this point they are useless.

Again, i completely agree with you, but that doesn't change anything.
From my point of view, promising BTC refunds is just another way to prove how fake they are.

When will HF start shipping batch one.

How does the mpp work for me, as batch one customer?

Should be around the 15th of Dec.

You should get 4x the initial hashrate the first of Feb. However, there is no delivery deadline. It could be Feb 2015, and then we are screwed. Even a few weeks late would kill every chance of having a relative return.

False advertising is not hearsay.

Actually I always had the impression that hearsay was when someone else claimed someone said or wrote something, not when the person actually did say it or write it themselves.

A poster by Pepsi corp claiming their cola cures cancer is false advertising; someone telling you they saw such a poster on the subway is hearsay. Or so I had always thought. I am not a lawyer though.

-MarkM-

EDIT: Oops, my bad, that should say such a poster might be false advertising; I don't actually know for a fact that Pepsi cola doesn't cure cancer... Just like we maybe don't yet know for a fact that they don't refund your bitcoins-paid...

We've already been screwed. We've posted many questions that need to be addressed yet they waste time putting up a pic of the ceo holding the wafer that should have been here a month ago.

I think that's incorrect. It doesn't matter what currency it was denominated at. If you paid X amount of ***BTC*** then you get whatever amount and currency you paid with, so BTC in this case. If the actual payment was in dollars, then yes dollars should be the currency to employ but that was not the case.

Reneging on a contract = return of agreed upon exchange

In this case, bitcoins for a promise to deliver miners.  

This is a clear case of contract law violation when they changed the terms.

You get whatever the judge awards you.

"Judge"?? As if we didn't have ecommerce laws already?? It's not the first time that a customer demands a refund from a website using standard claim process irrespective of the what the exchange rate they based their payment. It's always about the currency they ultimately received from the customer. Apples in. Apples Out. That's it.

Crosspost:

I receive a lot of questions via pm with persons interested to sue them, but everyone stops, due to laziness i think.

Well, they lied about the promised delivery time, they promised something that they knew would have never happen and we can easily prove that. I really don't see what else is needed.

I have money i want to trow away against HF. And arbitration looks like a dead track. Again, please, let's do something serious. (i can already visualise ice or their peers trolling me with this post, but who cares...). I want to have john to regret what he said about how many lawsuit bfl had. It's the minimum they deserve.

Have you talked to an attorney in your home country? 

Not sure how much you have tied up with HF or how much your willing to waste on chasing them, but shouldn't you seek legal advice first from a legal expert in your country.  Perhaps a quick consultation with a lawyer locally may yield some help or at least a base understanding of what the next step might be.

There isn't a single piece of mining hardware that you can currently purchase (in-hand or pre-order) that will ROI (in it's usable lifetime) if measured exclusively in BTC imho.

*If you think your going to get rich quick mining, might want to re-evaluate whatever ended up leading you to draw that conclusion.

But again, true ROI can only be measured if one takes into account whatever small part they played in supporting the BTC network while they could (it's what we can do for our children that counts)! :)