Bitcoin Forum

Here's a good conversation topic. I'm looking forward to getting married to a wonderful woman in the next few months. She smartly brought up the topic of how we should handle my bitcoin once we are married. She see's it as being legitimate shared property, and while it's kind of 'mine', the truth is she has been enormously supportive of me in bitcoin since the beginning.

So, without any of the misogyny that this crowd can sometimes stir up how should one plan for the future with bitcoin? Best practices? Keep in mind, I know all the things that can go wrong with marriage, but telling my future wife I'm hoarding all my bitcoin to myself (and thus negatively altering her impression of the type of man I have) in the event we divorce is probably a worse idea for my life-happiness then coming up with a plan now to how we will hold it and store it as a mutual asset and running the risk of divorcing and splitting it. For the record, I've known her long before bitcoin was even invented. So no, we didn't just meet at the bar after I starting boasting of the $2 days, and lets skip the jokes about women inventing a new form of "mining". (Unless the jokes really good).


I'm looking for tips, ideas, etc....  Keep in mind this might make a template for future lawyers dealing with marriage, divorce, etc... so really constructive ideas would be helpful.

You're asking this on THIS forum?


http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Brenda-Meeks-Scared-Popcorn-Gif-In-Scary-Movie.gif

Treat it exactly as if Bitcoin didn't exist, and you inherited a shitload of fiat during your relationship prior to marriage. Spend enough of it, and slightly more, to keep her happy in the nest that she desires.

BTW, does she have a sister?

And tell her you personally know TMIBTCITW.

If You ever stumble upon thought that You are going to divorce with this girl in future then don't get married in first place! Find someone You are going to be together till heath death of Universe. Or at least when NTFS filesystem timestamps overflow.

Bitcoins must be your little secret. It is nothing wrong to hide your source of income. At least my friends think i'm cleaning dust out of computer cases and tighten laptop screws.

Why incentivize her to split up with you? Keep the bitcoins for yourself. They can be "both of yours", but retain the keys. Then spend some of them on a mansion when they are worth $10,000.

If my girlfriend hadn't bought any herself, started acting entitled to my bitcoins, and wanted her own private key, I'd get scared.

I'll echo Phinnaeus Gage:
Treat them like an inheritance. It's yours in name.

That she was "supportive" is meaningless, unless by that you mean she wanted you to buy bitcoins rather than buying her birthday presents, or taking her out to dinner.

A also agree You and only You must control the coins. They are Yours. If You plan to live together, spend them on house, education, kids.

It's good she did not dismiss Bitcoins in first place. Bu it is really possible that she told Bitcoins are crap in 2012 and when divorcing in 2023 she will ask majority of your wealth that came from these bitcoins.

it is really simple, bitcoin is like anything else that represent wealth, so if you love your wife to be which I suggest you do as you are getting married soon, you are already willing to spend the rest of your life with her and build up a family, so you are changing your life.

so if you will have problems in your marriage which will lead to divorce, she has the right of half of what you both own, Bitcoins are one thing that she will get as well the same like getting a car or house or.... the only thing is if the end of the relation gets ugly it will be hard for her to prove that you own any bitcoins, it is easy to erase any trace of transaction.

but honestly do not think so much about this, you will destroy your marriage before even you start, if you think that she is the right one for you, than sharing your wealth is one part of sharing your life with her.


in my case, I have 2 kids of my own and we take care of another two kids, if we are going to ever divorce I will split everything I have with my wife to the last penny as she was a great support for me, and she allways gived her hand to pick me up when I was down. so she deserve it.

I am actually thinking about the worst case scenario, in case of my death, I wrote a paper with guide of how she can get to the wealth, even if it will be hard for her ( not so much technical) I made sure that she can get help from friends that I trust.

      

People change, situations change.

If it is something that is bothering you, talk it over with your future wife. If necessary, contractually sort out an agreement that makes everyone happy.

You already identified a potentially issue, may as well deal with it.

Don't fight her on this.  Give her half the bitcoin right now.  If you fight her, you'll end up giving the lawyers half and her the other half.  Just hand it over, say you are sorry, and promise to never do it again.  Now go back to work and hope she leaves you alone.  

Damn now I need a new profile pic of a Rabbi Bunny hugging another Rabbi Bunny....

Why you make my life so hard crazy_rabbit?  :D

Why would you go through the hassle of getting married and then divorcing?

Everything's so beautiful before this dumb engagement, after which you feel so imprisonned, even with the best wife/husband in the world, you just wanna break out, just for the joy of breaking out.

Don't. Get. Married. Enjoy a full life of happiness with your girlfriend, instead. :)

Congratulations!  Best wishes for a lifetime of love and happiness.

First a foremost, congratulations!

Stash 3/4th of the coins in a paper wallet or something. And only let her have access to the other 1/4th. Act like that's all you have. NEVER let her know about the other 3/4ths.

50% of marriages fail. There is a chance you will end up loosing them 5, 10, 20 years down the road. And whatever she gets, she will spend right away.

I'm not- so whats the best way to share everything? A multisig wallet? Keep in in mind this is something I don't have any intention to spend till it's worth a bazillion. (which will be a long time)

EDIT: Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but there are **NO** issues in the relationship. So I'm not asking this out of distrust or worry, but rather, we think it's an interesting discussion to have now since people are just starting to have it for the first time. Bitcoin is unique the ownership being tied to something that could potentially live in your head. How do you share ownership without out giving potentially complete ownership, etc... multisig? a trust?

You are not ready to get married if you are not ready to transfer all the coins to her.

If you share your ownership with a 2 sign multisign, she can decided not to sign your transactions and you would have lost everything. She would have lost everything, too.

Hi Crazy_Rabbit,

It was nice meeting you at Bitcoin 2013.

Might I suggest you give her nothing or only a little bit so she has some skin in the game. It raises a red flag to me that she asked about what you were going to do with YOUR bitcoins after you guys get married.

I am a landman and I figure out ownership of mineral rights under property for oil & gas wells. I am very well versed in the laws surrounding community property. First of all, what state do you live in? Community property laws vary from state to state. It is likely that after you are married, any income you make she is entitled to 50% of it. However, it seems your Bitcoin stash was acquired well before marriage, so these coins are yours and only yours to decide what to do with them.

As stated earlier in this thread, no matter how much you love this girl and think she's so awesome, a large percentage of marriages fail. You should be apprehensive to hand much of your money over to her. Certainly you should not give her access to 100% of you Bitcoin savings. Any amount that you give her access to could be litigated as community property, even though you acquired them before marriage. Meaning... if you give her access to 100% of your Bitcoins, expect her to take half if you happen to get divorced.

Again, I suggest you give her a small amount so she has some skin in the game and can appreciate the ebbs and flows of the Bitcoin price fluctuations, and get her more involved with something you are clearly passionate about. I think it is important for significant others to share in hobbies, as it only brings people closer together. Just don't go over board with it man, be smart. I know you think you'll never get divorced, but shit happens.

Take care,

Ch

treat it just like a credit card.. where you both in the same account, both using the same pin number, but at the end of the month you explain to each other what each payment is for, or to have the discussion before spending each time... (bitcoin version is simply using the same private key, no multisig nonsense)

but even if she is the loveliest girl in the world always have a hidden stash..

if she was able to live her own life with her own money before being with you, then she obviously gets an income to support her lifestyle. so the need to access your funds should not have to be a big issue..

EG if your both earning 25k each a year.. then when adding it up and then dividing it in 2 its the same... (obviously) so needing to swap funds is negligable amounts

the way i see it.. whatever bank savings or assets she has before marriage, is hers.. whatever bank savings or assets you have before marriage is yours.. but then when married., the NEW household income that comes in each pay day/week/month AFTER the wedding is shared

and also have the conversation that because income is shared, she can't suddenly retire... not only because of money arguments.. but because if retired she will become lazy and fat and no longer have the hot body that you married.. so make sure she doesn't give up work, purely to stay in shape

Good god.  No.  You said this without asking "how much?" first or knowing the individual financial situations?

You're either *not* in a Western culture or you've just never been burned before.

If she helped you earn those coins, then by all means you should share them.  If she did not, she's not automatically entitled to them.  If we're talking about just a few coins here, it's certainly not a big deal regardless.

If I enter into a marriage with someone and bring significant amounts of years-past income that she had no part in earning, I'll certainly spend some of the money on her (and enjoy doing it).  I get to choose what happens with that money, however.  If a woman demanded otherwise, I'd certainly be leery.

FYI - I don't have anything against women, and I'm sure there are plenty of people who read this and knee-jerk to misogyny, but if you don't understand the above: you don't understand the nature of women or evolution.  One of the main needs that women get into a relationship for is the need to feel stable/secure (it's based on reproduction).  If you provide years worth of that stability/security up-front and she can leave with it while maintaining that stability -- she eventually will (it's extremely likely anyways).  Why?  Because you'll kill off her attraction to you.  Most of a man's "primal" attraction is based on how a woman looks/acts.  Most of a woman's "primal" attraction is based on what a man can *do* or provide (since the second she gets pregnant, her and that baby suddenly become reliant on you...  or at least that's what happened historically, and that behavior is still in our DNA whether you like it or not).

If your attraction dies off toward your spouse (especially if it's due to laziness/complacency), you'll eventually want to leave.  That doesn't mean that you *will*, but you'll want to in order to fulfill your needs.  The opposite is true too:  if you "spoil" a woman up front, you'll quickly lose her attraction unless you continue to provide significantly more funds or utility.

To quote Briffault's 'Law':
"The female, not the male, determines all the conditions of the animal family. Where the female can derive no benefit from association with the male, no such association takes place."

(P.S.  All of this assumes man = masculine & woman = feminine.  The roles/needs can be reversed.)

say it with me " she'll Never get the bitcoins!"
if you let her have some coins you'll hate her for spending them on junk!
good luck with married life buddy, pro tip, buy bitcoin and encrypt your ass!  ;)

I keep trying to come up with a great joke here about having children and starting altcoins, but it's not coming together.  Anyway - hoping all that works out for you in precisely the quantity desired. :)

I see a lot of "encrypted money baby!" type responses, but that really ignores the fact of two people who do trust each other but run into hard times.

What about this scenario: I've cleverly hidden most of my bitcoin safely away from governments and divorce lawyers, yet the marriage turns out to be awesome and nothing ever bad happens. Till one day I'm in a horrific car accident that leaves me in a coma and/or paralysed. Now what? The family needs that BTC to live, heck maybe *I* need that BTC to live, but I can no longer speak or move and can't tell anyone where the private keys are. Then what? Bitcoin is the money fortress of the future as long as you assume you will never lose brain function, but of course, people lose brain function all the time. All the encrypted paper backups in the world aren't going to pay for my funeral/transplant/cryofreezechamber if my wife can't decrypt the keys.

I see it like this:

Danger of being divorced and losing half my BTC: Sucks, entirely possible, but it's not the end of the world. I get a small place, roommate, readjust. It's a shit situation, but recoverable.

Danger of being happily married and losing my brain function (temporarily or permanently) and not being able to access the Bitcoin that could save my life/restore brain function: Sucks, entirely possible AND it's the end of the world for me. Horrible, horrible, outcome.

I think everyone who advocates hiding your wealth in bitcoin like that should think twice. When you hide your wealth in offshore bank accounts at least if you're brain dead your bank/banker/lawyer can get the money out and save your family/pay your medical bills. Not so with bitcoin. You hide it and simply riding a bike without a helmet and hitting the curb at the wrong angle could render that bitcoin gone forever.

I don't wanna be pessimistic but from a statistical point of view the chance of divorce is over 50%.
I wouldn't make a bet with no upside and with 50% chance of loss! :)

If she agree to an prenup you can state that all your assets before marriage stays individual.
And if she don't agrees, consider 50% of the coins as lost.

Honestly, I'm not worried about the statistics. The way things are going maybe one day (50 years from now?) we will all be billionares and I will be perfectly capable of surviving on half a billion if it comes to that*.

I have no intention of living off my bitcoin, rather I will live as if I don't have bitcoin and keep going in my normal life/career. The bitcoin is for 'one day in the far far future'.

Honestly, call me stupid, but money is not a priority in my quality of life. :-)

Lets assume I am 100% okay with losing 50% of my money to my wife. That aside, how do we JOINTLY manage it while keeping it secure?

(*note: i don't have anywhere NEAR that amount of bitcoin lest anyone get ideas I'm just giving an example.)

I was talking at my language forum when Daniel told me about this topic.
I divorced mid-2012 and I'm paying alimony with BTC, our agreement is of 25 BTC/month, a normal sum back then a very good wage by now.
She did prefer to get BTC instead of Euros and I agreed to pay it.
So I believe this makes me the first Bitcoin divorcée, no?  ;D

It's not wise to make a commitment in an asset where the supply is limited, and demand is growing over time.
The same goes with gold, in Muslim countries the man is expected to pay X gold coins to the wife if he takes a divorce without a good reason.
But that gold (or bitcoin) will be much more valuable after 20-30 years of marriage compared to fiat, so it's better to have such deals nominated in fiat.

Use Shamir's secret sharing to mitigate against a falling out later.  Cold wallet, private keys, and encode them with Shamir's secret sharing.  Give the different pieces to family members you trust.  You will have to choose how many pieces are required to decrypt the private key(s). (and of course, see that she gets a decode key as well, and perhaps an attorney)

Even though your relationship sounds fantastic, if she were to fall in love with somebody else (I seriously hope not), she may turn on you like an angry nest of army ants.  These days, its better to be safe when dealing with relationships and finances.

http://passguardian.com/

I think Armory has this built in as well, but ive never used it, it may be a command line thing.

Do a Video of what your wishes are in case something happens . Store the video on your computers hard drive or usb drive. Explain to her if something ever happens look at this video and follow the instructions .

Or sign a transaction that can be spent only in the future.

"with this coin i Bitwed"

Oh wow!

Of course you could also argue that the longer a person is with someone else, the higher the alimony from a separation should be. Considering one can't get those years back to do something else productive with.

THANKS! this is great! We need more of this.

Coming from someone who has been married, divorced, and engaged to be married again, this is an interesting topic. IMO, just treat it like any other financial asset - or debt for that matter. Everything should be considered joint after marriage and claiming something as his/hers just makes things unecessarily difficult.

But that doesn't mean each person needs to have both of their names on each bank account (that could be worked out with a will, death certificate, etc), or the private key(s) to bitcoin addresses. The important part, as the OP is asking about, is how to make sure the spouse can access those accounts in case something happens but without incurring too much risk to the paper wallet. Those are all good suggestions with multi-sig identifiers. One solution is multiple encrypted copies of paper wallets spread among family and close friends, with only the spouse knowing the password. That would decrease the risk of accidentally opening up a paper wallet.

The next question is what to do when there are kids involved, and you want to make sure they can access the funds in case both parents die in a car/plane/speedboat/space shuttle accident. I think it's a little bit too risky, but Hal Finney choose to put his keys in a safe deposit box for his kids: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155054.0

Prenuptial Agreement  ;)

Congratulations on your upcoming nuptials! 

It rarely ever happens that two people who have absolutely equal assets marry.

If your bitcoin wealth gives you a material advantage over your beloved then she needs to know that you're serious about making her a full partner in this marriage.  And to that end I advise you to find a completely symmetric disposition for it.

Yours, mine, and ours.  However you manage it do not withhold for yourself more than your share.  This is what you're bringing for your kids who because they don't exist yet can contribute nothing to their own future.

Anyway a lot of the time it is most important to trust and to be seen to trust your partner to make the partnership work. Take a risk on love. Holding back poisons both your and her ability to make a full partnership.

 ;D Hoard all the money! after all you said it's your coins. Just let her see the value of the coins once in a while.

+1 This.

Firstly, congratulations to you! I am also engaged and my fiance is actively involved in learning about and watching the Bitcoin ecosphere. When we marry next year, the money will be combined, simple enough.

If you aren't going 'prenup', then likely it's shared property. Hopefully, you'll want that, anyway, and won't be 'sneaky' about your assets, which doesn't help you do anything but increase your ability for deceit. But, nothing wrong with wanting to consider holding those assets back; it'd be better to be honest about your concerns now, than to just lie to her, or keep it secret, IMO.

Thanks for the interesting conversation. You crazy rabbit.