Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin => Bitcoin Discussion => Topic started by: elggawf on July 31, 2011, 03:58:28 PM



Title: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: elggawf on July 31, 2011, 03:58:28 PM
So looking for greener pastures to play in this morning, I successfully, in two transactions, transferred 0.69073078 BTC to CampBX to play around with. I tried to trade 0.69BTC, and of course it still rounds it up to 0.7 and fails because I don't have that much. Yawn.

Then I go to move it out to my wallet because I'll probably just wind up spending it instead of trading it, so I transfer that amount out and after the 0.0005 transaction fee, it's rounded down to 0.6902 - no idea where the rest went. This rounding business is getting silly...


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: Keyur @ Camp BX on July 31, 2011, 04:43:55 PM
Elgawwf,
       We have intentionally opted for higher minimums like traditional stock/commodity trading platforms.  As part of moving Bitcoin towards a more mainstream experience, we have also put in significant efforts towards advanced features, tighter security, fluid UI, and a stable code-base.

As you trade more volume, you will appreciate these features more than 8 decimal points!

Thank you,
     Keyur



Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: Mt.Fun on July 31, 2011, 04:49:08 PM
Elgawwf,
       We have intentionally opted for higher minimums like traditional stock/commodity trading platforms.  As part of moving Bitcoin towards a more mainstream experience, we have also put in significant efforts towards advanced features, tighter security, fluid UI, and a stable code-base.

As you trade more volumes, you will appreciate these features more than 8 decimal points!

Thank you,
     Keyur



That is a good idea. No one buys .0548951 of a stock for a reason.

In regards to the rounding on transfers through the Bitcoin network... I believe it takes .0005 and whatever comes after that along with it automatically. If you think about it, whatever comes after .0005 is less than .0001 so your fee is still less than .0006.


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: elggawf on July 31, 2011, 05:36:48 PM
Keyur: I can appreciate that, but to many people, disappearing fractions of a Bitcoin (particularly if it appreciates the way many true believers think it will) is still at the very least, unexpected.

I can deal with not being able to trade at less than 0.05, but it arbitrarily rounding off withdrawals is a bit much. On MtGox ('m not sure since when) I can see down to 8 digits and withdraw all of them - up to and including the "dust". Tradehill you can't see the dust (well, I've not logged into them in a while but last I tried you couldn't), but if you know how much exactly is there you can withdraw it successfully too.

Another issue is that okay - with two digit prices and trade quantities that are only multiples of 0.05 - you are unlikely to end up with an amount of BTC or USD that's smaller than four decimal places... until you take into account the 0.55% fees. At that point it's rather trivial to end up with fractions of both currencies.

Mt.Fun: It's not a Bitcoin issue - there was an issue a while back where the network/client would eat the "dust" in change as fees to avoid leaving a tiny amount on an address. That's not what's going on here, this is simply CampBX rounding everything down to four digits and calling it a day.


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: BGL on August 01, 2011, 04:28:57 AM
Another problem is their date/data is not reset on UTC. BX continues pumping previous days data (to bitcoincharts) for ~3 hours after UTC.


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: FlipPro on August 01, 2011, 04:47:45 AM
Elgawwf,
       We have intentionally opted for higher minimums like traditional stock/commodity trading platforms.  As part of moving Bitcoin towards a more mainstream experience, we have also put in significant efforts towards advanced features, tighter security, fluid UI, and a stable code-base.

As you trade more volume, you will appreciate these features more than 8 decimal points!

Thank you,
     Keyur

Intelligence and goodwill will always win. I admire your professionalism Keyur.


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: Keyur @ Camp BX on August 01, 2011, 04:49:31 AM
Another problem is their date/data is not reset on UTC. BX continues pumping previous days data (to bitcoincharts) for ~3 hours after UTC.

BGL,
      Great point; although the documentation for Bitcoin Charts do not mention UTC as a requirement for the API:
http://bitcoincharts.com/about/exchanges/

That is why we are opting to stay in sync with our customers instead of UTC.

Hope this helps,
     Keyur


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: julz on August 01, 2011, 05:57:21 AM
Simply awful.

Do yourselves a favour and use integer calculations - either satoshi or even smaller.
(and please tell me you're not rounding during intermediate calculations!)

I have little faith in a system that doesn't account for the full divisibility of bitcoin from the beginning.
I predict you'll have quite a few headaches adjusting the code during any serious rally in bitcoin value.
(unless you have a pretty comprehensive test suite and anticipated it well)

Already a millibitcoin is US 1.4cents.   You've ruled yourself out of being a competitor in the online wallet field for micropayments right there.
(mtgox is moving to offer online wallet-like services.. are you?)

Disrespect the people's bitdust at your peril!



Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: BGL on August 01, 2011, 06:55:42 AM

BGL,
      Great point; although the documentation for Bitcoin Charts do not mention UTC as a requirement for the API:
http://bitcoincharts.com/about/exchanges/


I think camp bx is the only exchange not operating on UTC


That is why we are opting to stay in sync with our customers instead of UTC.

Hope this helps,
     Keyur


utc+3 = most of your customers are in eastern africa?


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: notme on August 01, 2011, 07:57:33 AM
You allowed me to deposit 8 decimal places, but you do not allow me to withdraw 8 decimal places.  Can you guarantee my bitdust remains mine?  I ask because I can't verify myself.  I'm not sure if I'll ever use your exchange again, but if I do, I want to be able to round up my bitdust to an amount you'll allow me to work with.  I am concerned for my satoshis.


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: jwzguy on August 01, 2011, 09:00:22 AM
Simply awful.

Do yourselves a favour and use integer calculations - either satoshi or even smaller.
(and please tell me you're not rounding during intermediate calculations!)

I have little faith in a system that doesn't account for the full divisibility of bitcoin from the beginning.
I predict you'll have quite a few headaches adjusting the code during any serious rally in bitcoin value.
(unless you have a pretty comprehensive test suite and anticipated it well)

Already a millibitcoin is US 1.4cents.   You've ruled yourself out of being a competitor in the online wallet field for micropayments right there.
(mtgox is moving to offer online wallet-like services.. are you?)

Disrespect the people's bitdust at your peril!



This.

If CampBX doesn't think 8 decimal places are important, then I'll never use their exchange.



Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: phungus on August 01, 2011, 01:39:55 PM

Pretty big egos to ignore how bitcoin actually works (and will work in the future) to make it appear like a "modern" trading system.

The reason we like bitcoins is because the normal trading mechanisms and currencies are all horked to begin with.


Design your software to work with the coins the way they are supposed to. Don't assume who your audience is or you will make mistakes and push people away.



Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: BGL on August 01, 2011, 02:22:45 PM
"the documentation says "unixtime" (from wiki: defined as the number of seconds elapsed since midnight Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) of January 1, 1970, not counting leap seconds.)"


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: Keyur @ Camp BX on August 01, 2011, 02:45:34 PM
Update: We have enabled bit-dust, and now users are able to transact down to a single satoshi.

Elgawwf, can you please check and confirm on behalf of the thread?

Thank you!
    - Keyur




Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: nmat on August 01, 2011, 02:52:10 PM
Update: We have enabled bit-dust, and now users are able to transact down to a single satoshi.

Elgawwf, can you please check and confirm on behalf of the thread?

Thank you!
    - Keyur

Does this also work for withdrawals?


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: Keyur @ Camp BX on August 01, 2011, 03:01:02 PM
Update: We have enabled bit-dust, and now users are able to transact down to a single satoshi.

Elgawwf, can you please check and confirm on behalf of the thread?

Thank you!
    - Keyur

Does this also work for withdrawals?

Yes!


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: elggawf on August 01, 2011, 03:38:31 PM
Elgawwf, can you please check and confirm on behalf of the thread?

Confirmed the 3k satoshis are visible anyway, I don't have enough in my account at the moment to actually transact with.

FWIW you could either have the last four decimal points be optional via profile, or have them only show when a user has dust in their account (though that's probably going to happen a lot with your fee schedule).

To confirm - did you enable trading at quantities finer than multiples 0.05 or does it just show and allow you to withdraw the dust? I don't mind either way, the 0.05 thing was an annoyance but I never actually felt like I'd lost anything like I did when the withdrawal was rounded.

Actually, if you made an FAQ page with all the trading rules (explaining the rounding would probably be a good thing, or at the very least have your stuff always round down... because it's counter intuitive to try and sell 0.69 BTC and then be given an error because you do not have 0.7 BTC in your account) this thread probably wouldn't be here. :D


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: semarjt on August 01, 2011, 03:43:54 PM
Ouch, not storing times in UTC??

Welcome to Servers 101.

In my opinion, this is a bigger red flag than some well meaning UI effort.

This speaks to incompetence or at least ignorance of basic best practice.


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: Keyur @ Camp BX on August 01, 2011, 03:43:54 PM
Elgawwf, can you please check and confirm on behalf of the thread?

Confirmed the 3k satoshis are visible anyway, I don't have enough in my account at the moment to actually transact with.

FWIW you could either have the last four decimal points be optional via profile, or have them only show when a user has dust in their account (though that's probably going to happen a lot with your fee schedule).

To confirm - did you enable trading at quantities finer than multiples 0.05 or does it just show and allow you to withdraw the dust? I don't mind either way, the 0.05 thing was an annoyance but I never actually felt like I'd lost anything like I did when the withdrawal was rounded.

Actually, if you made an FAQ page with all the trading rules (explaining the rounding would probably be a good thing, or at the very least have your stuff always round down... because it's counter intuitive to try and sell 0.69 BTC and then be given an error because you do not have 0.7 BTC in your account) this thread probably wouldn't be here. :D

Bowing to your demand, we bid farewell to rounding.  The only requirement now is 0.1 btc minimum to buy or sell!

Thank you,
      Keyur



Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: Keyur @ Camp BX on August 01, 2011, 03:46:50 PM
Ouch, not storing times in UTC??

Welcome to Servers 101.

In my opinion, this is a bigger red flag than some well meaning UI effort.

This speaks to incompetence or at least ignorance of basic best practice.

Semarjet,
    The times are stored in UTC, but displayed in Mountain Time.

We are already working on changing the feed to Bitcoin Charts to UTC.

Stay tuned,
    Keyur



Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: elggawf on August 01, 2011, 03:57:09 PM
Bowing to your demand,

Now I feel like a jerk... :(

Quote
we bid farewell to rounding.  The only requirement now is 0.1 btc minimum to buy or sell!

That's good news - it brings you more into line with the other BTC exchanges, though I realize your goal was to be more like a professional currency exchange. My only concern with that goal was that if Bitcoin appreciates the way everyone hopes it will, then the 0.05 thing is simply a high barrier to entry.

Have you given any thought about implementing an unbacked transaction queue like what MtGox has? I didn't really understand it at first, but it's actually a rather convenient feature. I can initiate a deposit, and then if the price is right when the funds hit, a queued-up order goes through and I don't have to keep checking on it.

Please don't consider that a "demand" though. :P


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: Keyur @ Camp BX on August 01, 2011, 03:59:16 PM
"the documentation says "unixtime" (from wiki: defined as the number of seconds elapsed since midnight Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) of January 1, 1970, not counting leap seconds.)"

BGL,
      Thank you for pointing this out - we have modified the feed to UTC starting now.

Thank you,
    Keyur


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: Keyur @ Camp BX on August 01, 2011, 04:07:15 PM
Bowing to your demand,

Now I feel like a jerk... :(

Quote
we bid farewell to rounding.  The only requirement now is 0.1 btc minimum to buy or sell!

That's good news - it brings you more into line with the other BTC exchanges, though I realize your goal was to be more like a professional currency exchange. My only concern with that goal was that if Bitcoin appreciates the way everyone hopes it will, then the 0.05 thing is simply a high barrier to entry.

Have you given any thought about implementing an unbacked transaction queue like what MtGox has? I didn't really understand it at first, but it's actually a rather convenient feature. I can initiate a deposit, and then if the price is right when the funds hit, a queued-up order goes through and I don't have to keep checking on it.

Please don't consider that a "demand" though. :P

Haha Elgawwf, will consider this one a suggestion then ;-)
Our backend is capable of handling the order queuing feature (in fact, this is how we placed all trades during internal Beta testing).  Will certainly look in to how we can make it available in a more user-friendly fashion.

Thank you,
    Keyur



Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: semarjt on August 01, 2011, 04:18:43 PM
Ouch, not storing times in UTC??

Welcome to Servers 101.

In my opinion, this is a bigger red flag than some well meaning UI effort.

This speaks to incompetence or at least ignorance of basic best practice.

Semarjet,
    The times are stored in UTC, but displayed in Mountain Time.

We are already working on changing the feed to Bitcoin Charts to UTC.

Stay tuned,
    Keyur




My bad then. I apologize.


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: QuantumQrack on August 01, 2011, 06:53:52 PM
Probably would be a good idea to change the subject OP if CampBX reps have fixed the problems.


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: error on August 01, 2011, 07:49:31 PM
Keyur,

On the bitdust issue, I think you might have a few lingering issues. Like this one, which I haven't seen before:

http://i51.tinypic.com/20049ag.png

On the timezone issue, I think you might have a few lingering issues. Like this one, which I reported several weeks ago - it still hasn't been fixed:

http://i56.tinypic.com/xm7w2r.png


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: Keyur @ Camp BX on August 01, 2011, 09:38:54 PM
Hi Error,
   The first one is intentional: we are displaying small amounts in Depth table as "Fractional" to keep it reader-friendly.

We have been working on the second issue since you mentioned it.  A code update that allow users to select their own display timezone is in development.  I will keep you posted when we push it out in to production.

Thank you,
      Keyur



Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: BGL on August 02, 2011, 12:46:32 AM
cbx rolled to august 2nd ~3 hours & 25min early. I'm just going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume this is still being worked on.


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: Keyur @ Camp BX on August 02, 2011, 01:00:51 AM
cbx rolled to august 2nd ~3 hours & 25min early. I'm just going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume this is still being worked on.

Yes BGL - this change will require a full history re-upload on Bitcoin Charts.  We are working with the owner to accomplish this.

Stay tuned,
      Keyur



Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: Keyur @ Camp BX on August 02, 2011, 02:13:30 AM
cbx rolled to august 2nd ~3 hours & 25min early. I'm just going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume this is still being worked on.

All clear :-)



Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: BGL on August 02, 2011, 02:48:45 AM
Good stuff


Title: Re: *grumble* CampBX still got rounding issues
Post by: nmat on August 02, 2011, 04:33:20 AM
I was looking at the graphs and I noticed that the volume at CampBX is steadily increasing. Congratulations. Maybe we can start short selling soon ;)

http://i.imgur.com/RPi7B.png