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Bitcoin => Bitcoin Discussion => Topic started by: GeniuSxBoY on August 01, 2011, 05:47:18 PM



Title: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: GeniuSxBoY on August 01, 2011, 05:47:18 PM
Can you please put a 100/day (or reasonable) trade limit on accounts to stop bots from doing this:

Quote
3:39:34 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:34 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:33 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:33 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:32 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:32 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:32 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:31 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:31 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:31 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:30 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:30 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:30 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:29 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:29 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:29 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:28 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:28 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:28 > Rem Bid 150 @ 13.1001
13:39:28 > Add Bid 150 @ 13.1001
13:39:27 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:27 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:27 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:27 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:26 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:26 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:25 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:25 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:25 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:24 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:24 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:24 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:23 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:23 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:23 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:22 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:22 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:21 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:21 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:21 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:20 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:20 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:20 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:19 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:19 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:18 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:18 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:18 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:17
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
..

.


This has been going on for quite some time.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: wolftaur on August 01, 2011, 05:54:00 PM
Can you please put a 100/day (or reasonable) trade limit on accounts to stop bots from doing this:
This has been going on for quite some time.

Better yet, he should just impose a cancelation fee for any order that's been on the market for less than 10 minutes. Then the bots can go broke.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: JeffK on August 01, 2011, 05:54:44 PM
Why not just make your own bot to enter the ring? Adding more restrictions is just another violation of the free market.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: GeniuSxBoY on August 01, 2011, 06:00:02 PM
I understand your concern with a free market. The market is still free for human capabilities. Noone (except some insanely bored teenagers) is going to waste their time adding and removing orders by hand 100 times.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: qwk on August 01, 2011, 06:09:05 PM
Why not just make your own bot to enter the ring? Adding more restrictions is just another violation of the free market.

Those bots are using a service (called the API). In a free market, it is absolutely reasonable and common to charge for using services.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: GeniuSxBoY on August 01, 2011, 06:12:44 PM
I think the service should be kept free, because even if they paid for the service, it would not solve the problem posted in the OP


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: jackjack on August 01, 2011, 06:16:49 PM
Agreed with OP


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: qwk on August 01, 2011, 06:19:09 PM
I think the service should be kept free, because even if they paid for the service, it would not solve the problem posted in the OP

It would, if you had to pay for API calls. Give people an API key, let them do 100 calls per day for free, additional calls prepaid at 0.1 btc / 100 calls.
It wouldn't hurt any real traders with their tools, not even "sensible" bots, but it would most likely stop script-kiddy-gone-wild-bots that usually don't trade larger volumes anyway.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: Littleshop on August 01, 2011, 06:26:32 PM
I think the service should be kept free, because even if they paid for the service, it would not solve the problem posted in the OP

It would, if you had to pay for API calls. Give people an API key, let them do 100 calls per day for free, additional calls prepaid at 0.1 btc / 100 calls.
It wouldn't hurt any real traders with their tools, not even "sensible" bots, but it would most likely stop script-kiddy-gone-wild-bots that usually don't trade larger volumes anyway.

These robots are probably slowing the system down a bit too.  Charging just .001 BTC per trading call would fix the problem as well and be simple.



Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: GeniuSxBoY on August 01, 2011, 06:28:00 PM
I think the service should be kept free, because even if they paid for the service, it would not solve the problem posted in the OP

It would, if you had to pay for API calls. Give people an API key, let them do 100 calls per day for free, additional calls prepaid at 0.1 btc / 100 calls.
It wouldn't hurt any real traders with their tools, not even "sensible" bots, but it would most likely stop script-kiddy-gone-wild-bots that usually don't trade larger volumes anyway.

Oh. You didn't say it would be free for the first 100 calls per day  ;) It makes a difference.


Your new way lets people keep trading in case there's an emergency. My solution doesn't.


I think I will agree that is a better solution than to jail people within 100 trades.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: GeniuSxBoY on August 01, 2011, 06:47:43 PM
BUMP!! KILL THE BOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: GeniuSxBoY on August 01, 2011, 07:03:11 PM
Since his bot places small bid above the highest bid and small ask below the smallest ask, you can break his bot by placing a mirco-order at .00001 below his ask price.




edit: he fixed to match the highest bid now :(


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: qwk on August 01, 2011, 07:09:02 PM
BUMP!! KILL THE BOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Leave Bender alone!


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: indicasteve on August 01, 2011, 07:18:53 PM
If a cancellation fee isn't appropriate,  I would put a throttle in place.  Maybe api calls are restricted to once per 5 seconds per api key.

On my system, the fee to place orders is not refunded when you cancel the order.  It sounds like a bit of a money grab, but it will ensure that people trade sensibly and place serious orders that they actually expect to get executed.

It's been a while since I've traded on Forex markets, but as I recall, there was always some fee, spread or commission that would get you if you immediately opened then closed an order on any of the exchanges.

Because of this, scalping using bots on Forex is actually rather difficult and most algorithms fail to produce profits.  On the other hand, long term traders are also screwed because Forex also closes on the weekends and charges a fee to keep your open orders over the weekend as well.
  


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: MiningBuddy on August 01, 2011, 07:20:25 PM
I am not a trading expert so could someone please outline the negative effects OP's concerns have on users of this market?


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: xcooling on August 01, 2011, 07:38:45 PM
can allow for price manipulation.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: qwk on August 01, 2011, 07:55:36 PM
I am not a trading expert so could someone please outline the negative effects OP's concerns have on users of this market?

Those tiny amounts traded by named bots take up a lot of "screen real estate", so, quite frankly, they are just a pain in the watchacallit.

Also, even after major movements on the market, the bots tend to return the "commonly visible exchange rate" to an unrealistic value. For example, after a larger trade, the bids and asks between 13.3 and 13.7 may be completely wiped out. Actually, no real exchange rate anywhere between those two values is realistic (if at all, it would be on the buy side, so 13.3). The bots may revert to 13.7 easily, leading to the false impression of a higher exchange rate. That would not be an issue for the common trader, but it almost certainly is for the market in general. Volumes on the exchanges are incredibly low and that makes those bots dangerous.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: indicasteve on August 01, 2011, 08:03:20 PM
Well, IMO, from an enduser's point of view, bots are a good thing in many cases.  They provide stability to the market.  They keep the buy and sell order prices as close as possible by keeping only the fee value + tiny profit as the spread.  However, they eliminate those profit opportunities for others.

From an exchange's point of view, it could be a nightmare waiting to happen.   All those writes to the database must be costly and probably affect performance somewhat.  If something ever goes wrong, you now have to examine and wade through many thousands of transactions.  But at least it's a good load test on the system :))  


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: qwk on August 01, 2011, 08:24:06 PM
Well, IMO, from an enduser's point of view, bots are a good thing in many cases.  They provide stability to the market.  They keep the buy and sell order prices as close as possible by keeping only the fee value + tiny profit as the spread.  However, they eliminate those profit opportunities for others.

As long as those bots are not actually funded with anything but petty cash, they don't provide stability, they only give the false impression of stability. And that is worse than no stability at all.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: Soros Shorts on August 01, 2011, 11:14:08 PM
Can you please put a 100/day (or reasonable) trade limit on accounts to stop bots from doing this:
This has been going on for quite some time.

Better yet, he should just impose a cancelation fee for any order that's been on the market for less than 10 minutes. Then the bots can go broke.
How about imposing a fee for too many cancellations per day based on the ratio of filled orders / canceled orders for the account?

For example, an account is allowed 5 free cancelations per day for each filled order. Anything above that will be charged.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: DrKennethNoisewater on August 02, 2011, 12:15:54 AM
What's wrong with bots?

Have you ever aggressively traded the US equity markets?

The NASDAQ, NYSE, and AMX are all run by bots. What would
lead anyone to believe that the BTC markets would reject
automation?

What most inexperienced perceive as "a bot" are cascading reactions.

DKN


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: Rodyland on August 02, 2011, 12:59:12 AM
What's wrong with bots?

Have you ever aggressively traded the US equity markets?

The NASDAQ, NYSE, and AMX are all run by bots. What would
lead anyone to believe that the BTC markets would reject
automation?

What most inexperienced perceive as "a bot" are cascading reactions.

DKN

There may be bots trading US equity markets (and there are), but for the most part these bots have to pay for access.  First to be an effective bot you have to pay for colocation.  Then you have to pay for connectivity.  Then you have to pay for each trade executed.

(You can eliminate/minimise some of these costs but not all).

The problem isn't bots per-se, the problem is bots doing stupid things.  And when market access is free, stupid people can do stupid things with impunity.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: DrKennethNoisewater on August 02, 2011, 01:09:11 AM
The "stupid" people are still at " stupid" risk for the "stupid" trades thAt may or maynot get executed


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: Rodyland on August 02, 2011, 05:14:55 AM
The "stupid" people are still at " stupid" risk for the "stupid" trades thAt may or maynot get executed

Yes, but stupid people doing stupid things cause stupid amounts of market data, making everyone else's systems run slower.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: qwk on August 02, 2011, 07:21:51 AM
The "stupid" people are still at " stupid" risk for the "stupid" trades thAt may or maynot get executed

Those "stupid" trades that are executed are mostly at amounts way below 1 btc. Potential losses of a few percent on that kind of money are simply not enough to discourage stupid botting. Seriously, i have nothing against bots (i even share my workspace with Bender!), but these kiddy bots are pretty annoying.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: GeniuSxBoY on August 02, 2011, 07:29:51 AM
What does MagicalTux have to say about this?


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: DrKennethNoisewater on August 02, 2011, 04:03:52 PM
Yes, anyone from GOX listening?

The bot issue is annoying, but not nearly as annoying when you have standing orders to sell at 14.20 and BTC goes to 14.80,
yet no execution.

And of course, the typical broken English response from GOX, "Our system was down on the week end"


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: Clipse on August 02, 2011, 04:10:22 PM
My only issue with trading bots is the spamming of pretty much null values, assuming price adjustments at 0.00000123 @ $14 then someone else offers a real price of 4 @ $13.5

I dont mind the exchange rate spamming but the actual BTC volume offered at exchange rate is just stupid.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: wndrbr3d on August 02, 2011, 04:20:13 PM
if it wasn't for the bots jockeying for profit, this downward slide would be a lot more sharp.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: GeniuSxBoY on August 02, 2011, 04:24:53 PM
The bots aren't doing anything. I wonder how much the guy with the bot actually made. I'm thinking less than $10 or is in the hole


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: hiVe on August 02, 2011, 05:04:09 PM
What's wrong with bots?

Have you ever aggressively traded the US equity markets?

The NASDAQ, NYSE, and AMX are all run by bots. What would
lead anyone to believe that the BTC markets would reject
automation?

What most inexperienced perceive as "a bot" are cascading reactions.

DKN

There may be bots trading US equity markets (and there are), but for the most part these bots have to pay for access.  First to be an effective bot you have to pay for colocation.  Then you have to pay for connectivity.  Then you have to pay for each trade executed.

(You can eliminate/minimise some of these costs but not all).

The problem isn't bots per-se, the problem is bots doing stupid things.  And when market access is free, stupid people can do stupid things with impunity.



So true! Im honestly also starting to get annoyed, especially since the additional overhead they impose on the system is making me spend 5 times more time @MtGox as I used to.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: GeniuSxBoY on August 02, 2011, 11:28:40 PM
Mtgox!!!! please change your policy.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: Sannyasi on August 02, 2011, 11:40:28 PM
i must agree- i'd like to see less noobots and perhaps some sort of service for automation or trade limit.... something.....


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: markm on August 02, 2011, 11:48:54 PM
Would you pay a premium to get larger coins, like to get one entire bitcoin instead of 100,000,000 individual satoshis?

Isn't there some premium you pay in fees if the 100 bitcoins you bought actually turns out not to be 100 bitcoins but, rather, a few million fragments of bitcoins?

Maybe if these tiny trades are to be present, customers should be permitted to specify the denomination in which they wish to buy, so they can buy larger fragments only, no puny ones; or whole bitcoins only; or only coins worth at least 5 BTC each, etc?

-MarkM-


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: MagicalTux on August 02, 2011, 11:53:47 PM
Yes, anyone from GOX listening?

The bot issue is annoying, but not nearly as annoying when you have standing orders to sell at 14.20 and BTC goes to 14.80,
yet no execution.

And of course, the typical broken English response from GOX, "Our system was down on the week end"

Where did you get such an answer? There was no problem during the weekend.

As for the price, no, bitcoin did not go up to 14.80, only one old order which was placed at that price and which didn't get executed got executed when we rebuilt the orderbook, that's all.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: GeniuSxBoY on August 02, 2011, 11:56:59 PM
So about these bots........ can you do something about them?


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: GeniuSxBoY on August 07, 2011, 01:54:01 AM


Guess what time it is?



http://www.placeofclocks.com/files/2866794/uploaded/Fotolia_6419107_S.jpg

















Time to stop the bots.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: BitcoinPorn on August 07, 2011, 03:45:20 AM
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110701031646/glee/images/e/e0/Robot-dance_gif-anime-090820.gif


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: epetroel on August 07, 2011, 04:55:56 AM
As someone who actually has a trading bot, I obviously wouldn't want to see any kind of extra charge for API calls.  MtGox already probably makes more money in commissions off me than I make off them :)

Then again, I don't see what this particular bot is trying to accomplish other than flood the market with junk orders that it never intends to execute.  My only guess would be that they are trying to confuse other traders or bots?  I can't see how it could make money doing what it is doing right now, but then again, maybe I'm missing something.

As someone else mentioned, seems like a small charge for excessive order cancellations would be the best way to stop these kinds of bots, if indeed they actually should be stopped (which I'm not entirely convinced of either).


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: PatrickHarnett on August 08, 2011, 03:18:04 AM
So about these bots........ can you do something about them?
Have you lodged this with Gox, or just here on the forum? 


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: Maged on August 08, 2011, 03:27:23 AM
So about these bots........ can you do something about them?
Have you lodged this with Gox, or just here on the forum? 
Either way, MagicalTux has now seen it. By his non-response, I suspect that nothing will be done.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: jed on August 08, 2011, 04:12:58 AM
GeniuSxBoY: Why do you care if a bot adds and removes orders? How does it effect you at all?


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: GeniuSxBoY on August 08, 2011, 04:25:26 AM
How does it affect me???!!! What an absurd question.


Bots are simply an unfair advantage over humans.

Bots have a distinct advantage over humans in trading.  Mainly speed and the lack of human error and time.
Humans are simply not fast enough to type in an order before the market changes.


I'd have a lot more time on my hands if I had the time and resources and the knowledge to build and host a bot with a working trading algorithm.

I could walk away from the computer and make money. But then again, it wouldn't be fair to other people who are less fortunate.





Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: jed on August 08, 2011, 04:35:05 AM
Heh ok. I think you give these bots way too much credit.
And what about all the human traders that are better than you should they have to pay extra fees?


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: Tasty Champa on August 08, 2011, 04:39:23 AM
GeniuSxBoY: Why do you care if a bot adds and removes orders? How does it effect you at all?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: Tasty Champa on August 08, 2011, 04:43:37 AM
mtgox's subreddit may be a good place for this.



Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: GeniuSxBoY on August 08, 2011, 04:52:52 AM
I doubt that someone would keep their bot running for two weeks if they are losing money with it.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: Ridi on August 08, 2011, 05:07:23 AM
Heh ok. I think you give these bots way too much credit.
And what about all the human traders that are better than you should they have to pay extra fees?

In case you haven't noticed, there are increasing amounts of complaints about Mt.Gox's website being inaccessible during the prime buying moments.  Bots are affecting MtGox's viability as a trading forum and also making their charts inaccurate representations of the market.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: repentance on August 08, 2011, 05:45:34 AM
Heh ok. I think you give these bots way too much credit.
And what about all the human traders that are better than you should they have to pay extra fees?

In case you haven't noticed, there are increasing amounts of complaints about Mt.Gox's website being inaccessible during the prime buying moments.  Bots are affecting MtGox's viability as a trading forum and also making their charts inaccurate representations of the market.

It's not just bots placing fake orders which distorts the market depth.  The other day someone complained that a buy order they'd placed at 7.00 almost executed because they had trouble logging on quickly to remove it when the price was in freefall. 


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: GeniuSxBoY on August 08, 2011, 05:48:37 AM
Heh ok. I think you give these bots way too much credit.
And what about all the human traders that are better than you should they have to pay extra fees?

In case you haven't noticed, there are increasing amounts of complaints about Mt.Gox's website being inaccessible during the prime buying moments.  Bots are affecting MtGox's viability as a trading forum and also making their charts inaccurate representations of the market.

It's not just bots placing fake orders which distorts the market depth.  The other day someone complained that a buy order they'd placed at 7.00 almost executed because they had trouble logging on quickly to remove it when the price was in freefall. 


There's a huge difference. HUGE. Use your head!!! PLEASE use your head.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: Ridi on August 08, 2011, 06:26:57 AM
Heh ok. I think you give these bots way too much credit.
And what about all the human traders that are better than you should they have to pay extra fees?

In case you haven't noticed, there are increasing amounts of complaints about Mt.Gox's website being inaccessible during the prime buying moments.  Bots are affecting MtGox's viability as a trading forum and also making their charts inaccurate representations of the market.

It's not just bots placing fake orders which distorts the market depth.  The other day someone complained that a buy order they'd placed at 7.00 almost executed because they had trouble logging on quickly to remove it when the price was in freefall. 

Rather than just call you an idiot, I'll just admit, I have no frickin clue how this equates to using bots to overwhelm the system.  Is placing an fake order capable of forcing people out of the market in a way I haven't heard of before? 

Even with fake orders on the market, legitimate buyers and sellers should be able to buy and sell their real offers.  Bots, on the other hand, maintain a monopoly on market manipulation by forcing all others off MtGox.  Furthermore, it prevents assholes, like the one you mentioned, from realizing that if they post a fake bid/ask to manipulate the market and it gets filled, then they have no one to blame but themselves.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: bitclown on August 08, 2011, 06:29:39 AM
Bots have a distinct advantage over humans in trading.  Mainly speed and the lack of human error and time.
Humans are simply not fast enough to type in an order before the market changes.
Humans with their slow reactions and irrational feelings sounds like a much bigger problem for the market than fast and precise bots.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: GeniuSxBoY on August 08, 2011, 06:36:22 AM
Bots have a distinct advantage over humans in trading.  Mainly speed and the lack of human error and time.
Humans are simply not fast enough to type in an order before the market changes.
Humans with their slow reactions and irrational feelings sounds like a much bigger problem for the market than fast and precise bots.


http://thm-a01.yimg.com/nimage/97032b158b3dceb0


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: Ridi on August 08, 2011, 06:52:36 AM
Bots have a distinct advantage over humans in trading.  Mainly speed and the lack of human error and time.
Humans are simply not fast enough to type in an order before the market changes.
Humans with their slow reactions and irrational feelings sounds like a much bigger problem for the market than fast and precise bots.

I have no problem with bots as a means to do legitimate business.  Technology is not a bane to the bitcoin community. The clear issue is that either bot technology is being used intentionally maliciously (and in this case, where the bot user is most likely aware of the problems he's causing by now, it can't be ruled out,) or irresponsibly (this is clearly doing damage to the bitcoin market.)

The greater issue I have is that MtGox has several means to handle this issue at their disposal. Either impose the posting costs mentioned in other threads, or increase their capacity for traffic density.  Their is not a blameless party between MtGox and the botter.  In fact I have not ruled out Mt.Gox as the botter, as they may be trying to protect their profit margins.

Edit- Another possibility came to mind, from another thread I posted in
Quote
The other, on a lighter note, is that they are still working on security upgrades from the incident earlier this year, and have decided to include some way of staying the botters effect on the system.  In any case where they are intending to effect the botters they may not be willing to announce it till they can implement it, as it could cause the botters to escalate their activity drastically to maximize their abuse before the problem is handled.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: kjj on August 08, 2011, 02:09:53 PM
Can you just shut the fuck up already?

They created the exchange, they own it, they operate it, they get to make the decisions for it, not you.  If you don't like that, you can go make your own exchange and set whatever policies you want for it.  If you are right that bots are bad, people will flock to your botless exchange.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: evolve on August 08, 2011, 03:00:45 PM
http://www.lolpix.com/_pics/Funny_Pictures_609/Funny_Pictures_6093.jpg



Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: Ridi on August 08, 2011, 04:45:19 PM
Can you just shut the fuck up already?

They created the exchange, they own it, they operate it, they get to make the decisions for it, not you.  If you don't like that, you can go make your own exchange and set whatever policies you want for it.  If you are right that bots are bad, people will flock to your botless exchange.

Somebody that advocates minding their own business to that point of absurdity should probably take their own advice.

Since Magical Tux usually appears to be very active in responding to feedback, I don't see why you are so hostile to everyone.  Aside from his mysterious silence, which is hardly telling of MtGox's position, there is no reason to believe that they have reached any decision regarding this matter. (Though I will continue to speculate on the possibilities.  I find the situation interesting.)

As for making my own exchange, and then expecting people to flock to it, hardly indicates that I should shut up.  In fact, such an action would require increased advocacy for my system's strengths compared to the competition.  I think you in particular would find me quite a bit more annoying in my increased presence on this forum. 

Luckily for you I already prescribe to another trading service. For the time being I have faith in them and you can rest assured that I entertain no such notion of creating an online trading service in the near future.  :-*


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: kjj on August 08, 2011, 05:01:15 PM
...

I guess I should have made it clear that I was talking to the tool that started the thread and thinks that his opinion should be binding on everyone else, not whichever random person posted just before me.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: Ridi on August 08, 2011, 05:25:37 PM
Criticisms about GxB's approach aside, I think my point still applies.  As I support the two views which you criticized. (Aggressive, involved feedback, and restricting bot abuse viability)


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: Tasty Champa on August 08, 2011, 06:06:02 PM
Bitcoin is terminal running along this direction.
No serious investor would get caught in this scheme.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: kjj on August 08, 2011, 06:24:05 PM
Criticisms about GxB's approach aside, I think my point still applies.  As I support the two views which you criticized. (Aggressive, involved feedback, and restricting bot abuse viability)

Whining like a child that isn't getting his way is hardly feedback.  In the adult world, feedback is not the same as just saying "I don't like this, you need to change" over and over again.

And I've said nothing on "restricting bot abuse viability".  I'm actually all for it.  I think the exchanges certainly have the right to stop any abusive bots they find.  We are at odds because you are defining "abuse" to mean "that which I don't approve of" instead of "that which the rightful policy maker doesn't approve of".


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: Tasty Champa on August 08, 2011, 06:28:26 PM
Criticisms about GxB's approach aside, I think my point still applies.  As I support the two views which you criticized. (Aggressive, involved feedback, and restricting bot abuse viability)

Whining like a child that isn't getting his way is hardly feedback.  In the adult world, feedback is not the same as just saying "I don't like this, you need to change" over and over again.

And I've said nothing on "restricting bot abuse viability".  I'm actually all for it.  I think the exchanges certainly have the right to stop any abusive bots they find.  We are at odds because you are defining "abuse" to mean "that which I don't approve of" instead of "that which the rightful policy maker doesn't approve of".

You should keep your Insults to a minimum or make them non-existent.
He has very valid points. #1 being the charts are completely useless with rampant bots abusing volumes.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: Ridi on August 08, 2011, 11:57:07 PM
Criticisms about GxB's approach aside, I think my point still applies.  As I support the two views which you criticized. (Aggressive, involved feedback, and restricting bot abuse viability)

Whining like a child that isn't getting his way is hardly feedback.  In the adult world, feedback is not the same as just saying "I don't like this, you need to change" over and over again.

And I've said nothing on "restricting bot abuse viability".  I'm actually all for it.  I think the exchanges certainly have the right to stop any abusive bots they find.  We are at odds because you are defining "abuse" to mean "that which I don't approve of" instead of "that which the rightful policy maker doesn't approve of".

In the real world you have 30 year old men screaming in your face about how you're trying to rip them off and how you're a highway robber and should be ashamed of yourself.  In the real world little old ladies pretend like they are sweet as sugar while every other sentence out of their mouths is some kind of acidic criticism with implications that they should get something for free for having been treated so miserably.

When people are upset, they aren't always the nicest.  If you've ever had any experience dealing with customer service, even minimally, you'd be aware of that.  GxB and the bitcoin community aren't employees or coworkers with bitcoin, who need to be careful how they criticize.  They are customers.  Customers who feel like they are being ripped off turn into angry, self-righteous babies.

Is it the best way to communicate disappointment?  Not usually.  Sometimes though, it is the only way to get your point across.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: kjj on August 09, 2011, 12:19:24 AM
Criticisms about GxB's approach aside, I think my point still applies.  As I support the two views which you criticized. (Aggressive, involved feedback, and restricting bot abuse viability)

Whining like a child that isn't getting his way is hardly feedback.  In the adult world, feedback is not the same as just saying "I don't like this, you need to change" over and over again.

And I've said nothing on "restricting bot abuse viability".  I'm actually all for it.  I think the exchanges certainly have the right to stop any abusive bots they find.  We are at odds because you are defining "abuse" to mean "that which I don't approve of" instead of "that which the rightful policy maker doesn't approve of".

In the real world you have 30 year old men screaming in your face about how you're trying to rip them off and how you're a highway robber and should be ashamed of yourself.  In the real world little old ladies pretend like they are sweet as sugar while every other sentence out of their mouths is some kind of acidic criticism with implications that they should get something for free for having been treated so miserably.

When people are upset, they aren't always the nicest.  If you've ever had any experience dealing with customer service, even minimally, you'd be aware of that.  GxB and the bitcoin community aren't employees or coworkers with bitcoin, who need to be careful how they criticize.  They are customers.  Customers who feel like they are being ripped off turn into angry, self-righteous babies.

Is it the best way to communicate disappointment?  Not usually.  Sometimes though, it is the only way to get your point across.

And sometimes the next guy in line needs to say what the proprietor cannot.

By the way, I've done plenty of customer service.  Still do, in a way, and usually in circumstances where there is no hope of rescue.  When I'm in that role, I have patience and politeness that you wouldn't believe.  But today I'm the next guy in line, telling the angry baby to put a sock in it and move on.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: GeniuSxBoY on August 29, 2011, 05:53:44 PM
Ouch.


Can't say I didn't warn ya.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: nefanon on August 29, 2011, 06:16:16 PM
Ouch.
Can't say I didn't warn ya.

Any news from the Mt. Gox ppl? I think some kind of bot counter-measure would be beneficial.


Title: Re: ATTN: MtGox
Post by: evolve on August 29, 2011, 11:00:35 PM
mt gox rewards high volume trading. fee drops from .6% to .55% once your trade volume reaches 100btc in a month (this seems to be relatively new). so im pretty sure they wont be banning bots anytime soon....why would they? high volume trading means higher profits on their end...


this whining about bots is asinine..... my bot puts in trades within a trading range that adjusts to price (somewhat like a trailing stop-loss in forex or stocks) exactly the same as i would (and did before i got the bot) , only now i dont have to monitor my account 24/7 or bother with the math....i can keep it running and do something more productive than staring at charts all day. 

no one is at an unfair advantage either, free and open source trade bots are freely available to anyone with 2 minutes and access to the search bar on this forum. in fact, heres a link to the one i use; dnnbitcoin.aricie.com (http://dnnbitcoin.aricie.com) its open source, its free, and you can customize it however you see fit.

isnt bots driving the price down. its traders. bots arent swayed by psychology...they dont panic sell like people do. 

you dont see the forex market falling apart because of EA's (forex tradebots)  do you?