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Is it for real this time? Will China go to war with Japan (and possibly the US)?


U.S. B-52s flew over China's controversial new air defense zone
http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/26/world/asia/china-us-b52s/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

The chinese government has been allowing or covertly promoting increasingly rabid anti-japanese rhetoric for a couple of years now (Including giant banners at factories that say things like "all japanese must die" and so forth.

It seems likely that they are planning a short brutal war and looking for some pretext to go to war over.

A war would only be profitable if there is a giant amount of oil under the sea.

china reminds me of the geeky guy in high school who never got the girl. as he got older, he blossomed into a swan and then got supercocky with his newfound popularity. seems like china has been pushing around a lot of east asian countries, and even south asian (indians). they pretty much have beef with everyone, because they are hungry to be the new United States of America.

LOL, you ain't going to go all showmanship before you start a war with your equal, it's not like U.S striking Iraq, or even China's invasion of Vietnam, China knows what it's facing and if she really wants to attack Japan, she will do so quietly, do you really talk or brag about how will you punch someone before you really punch him? No way.

no

Nope

Pragmatism will win out in the end....

Wars in 21st century are not fought with canons, but happen silently, like sending the whole country stash of GM seeds with modified DNA, that can make the whole new generation unfit to do anything in life.

What would China gain from that? War would mean factories closing down and food prices hiking like crazy. The whole system would be destabilized and the current Chinese elite would risk being lynched. Obviously they do not really want a war. It is a common populistic move to make the people scared and support their government.
Obviously, China would win in terms of manufacturing, but could they really hold their country together with all of these minority groups? I don't think so.

Nah, none would really benefit from it. It could be a way for China to show their power though. But going to war would hurt their trading with the rest of the (western) world.

Some interesting opinions floating about here..!  ::)

China will never risk a war.
Right now they will get their ass kicked in so many forms , both on the war from and the economic one that is madness  to even think about it.
Also China is not known for winning wars :)

It's a chicken race. Most of the times, someone will back down. Most of the times.

I do think that Japan and China will have a limited war at some point to resolve the issues of the disputed islands. 
I also think that China will overwelm Japan to such an extent that they will just back down and not try to extend the war further.  Nuclear weapons still stop any large scale wars from happening, but large skirmishes should be possible.

Numbers don't matter , what it matter it's the technology available.
And the JSDF even as tiny as it is will put China back to it's place.
Also , Japan has allies , China ? Not. Russia won't move a finger in this , but will rather join the opposite side.

No chance

Sanity will prevail in the end, that's for sure

China benefits too much from trade to go to war they basically own the U.S through the government debt as well as other countries which is why they can get any kind of deal they like despite being 'evil communists' I think this seems a lot like the kind of rhetoric we saw from Iran awhile back as well, it must be because their leaders don't want to appear weak so they're doing a lot of posing to scare people. I think in truth like most people in the World the Japanese and Chinese themselves don't give a fuck and just want to leave each other alone, it's only the dickwaving douchebags in power that ever want to wage war with each other.

Ok, so the odds just jumped a bit...
http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/28/world/asia/japan-base-blasts/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Are you saying MTGOX going to war with BTCCHINA?

LOL

not gonna happen. anti-japanese rhetoric is good to divert issues from problems within the country and blame the Japanese.

It's not in the interest of either Japan or China to start a war. only crazies like the two koreas would be dumb enough to go as far as to shell each other, but even the DPRK knows where to stop. The time of land conquests by means of war are likely over.

With the increased integration of economies in the world, I highly doubt any countries actually want to go to war (barring some of those with a deep hatred for each other) due to the extreme economic side effects. China is just pulling out some bluster to maintain it's control over the population as usual.

I've taken the liberty of correcting the order the OP article authors put the sentences in.

"China unilaterally announced the creation of a [sic] "Air Defense Identification Zone" over several islands it and Japan have both claimed. The two countries have been sharply at odds over those isles, which are believed to be near large reserves of natural resources.

Washington responded negatively to what Secretary of State John Kerry characterized as an "escalatory action (that) will only increase tensions in the region and create risks of an incident."

Two U.S. military aircraft flew into China's newly claimed and challenged air defense zone over the East China Sea, a U.S. official said, an action that could inflame tensions between the world powers."

Traditional wars are a thing of the past, unless its over resources.
There are huge wars going on economically and electronically without most noticing as we speak.

No

Firstly, China is a civilization state - they've been fighting off the barbarians for thousands of years so the US doesn't bother them.  China's biggest threat is internal instability, so war isnt a good idea. 
It would damage their uber neo liberal capitalist system which is doing really well for them at the moment.
They are asserting regional control.  Neither country could overwhelm the other without great personal cost. 
Cyber war will be China's preferred battleground.
Japan needs to sort alot of things out before they could even consider such.

Another possibility is that the Chinese and Japanese are engaging in some clever collaboration.

They both know that divisions can be exploited by Western powers to try and exert influence in the region. Why not hand out a dispute on a silver platter, and make it the most dramatic issue that can give lots of pictures of warships and fighter jets to fill up newpapers and TV screens? If the Chinese and Japanese have agreed to stage this (and never create any real tension or conflict from it), it could make any dispute that Western powers might like to encourage look like a minor issue.

Mt Gox is a big middle finger to the US, a big exploitation of the global banking industry connections that Japan has been building up over the decades (16 currencies, count 'em). The promotion of BTC in China is also a humungous middle finger to the US. Bank of Japan are undertaking massive currency printing, with no date set as to when it finishes. A little known fact that has recently come to light is that Central Bank of China has printed more USD equivalent of yuan in the last 5 years than the Federal Reserve has, by about 7 times.

It seems that China and Japan are pretty well agreed on some policy areas, despite video footage of military warships, or tales of fighter jets shadowing defiant commercial airliners.

Does anyone know that those pictures of Chinese warships were actually taken in the past few weeks? It's just video of ships and aircraft carriers. Do we know the stories are for real? I would suggest that very few people are at all well placed to know these things for a fact. They're just stories until something a bit more concrete takes place.

If you think that no country is interested in going to war...

DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE the UNITED STATES OF Aaaa...

USA may want to go to war. But not with China.

Aaaa was involved in 70+ wars(the way of...oops they see it) in the last 70 years, so nothing new.

Exactly. Most countries these days do. Doesn't mean wars are impossible, of course, but there are huge economic incentives working against it that are much bigger than they were 50-100 years ago. That's why we had two world wars within 30 years but then not any more in the last 70+.

People tend to overestimate the importance of daily news reports about conflicts. The Japan-China dispute was making headlines earlier this year and people thought war was imminent and then it faded completely from most people's memories until it came back just now. Doesn't mean war is impossible, just a lot less likely than a lot of people tend to think.

I'm quite sure that they won't

I'm quite sure that they won't

I don't think they will. But I do see US is taking a piss by pushing the boundary. i.e. Flying over the China zone with 2 B52. Do they really want China to shoot them down, so they can go to war?

US get more out of this if they go to war with China. Since China owe most of their debt.

I think full-fledged war is unlikely to break out between China and Japan simply because going to war with Japan means going to war with the United States.

I also don't think it will ever come to a full-fledged conflict with Japan, but China is well known for the border incidents and armed clashes with her neighbors. And they have a short memory for kindnesses and a long memory for offenses...

lol - It would take a lot more than one broken down Russian surplus aircraft carrier to go up against the US Navy.  China is not that stupid. Nothing but saber rattling.

I doubt there will be war, those are just a couple of not very important and  unpopulated islands  ;)
they're  just showing off :D

Moreover During the war the Other countries would probably jump in to take advantage

of what?
I don't see why this would happen

No , china fought some very expensive wars , lost most of them , their battle record stinks and furthermore now the people in China have no wish for a new war.
Also , their bluff was over with this move....
They didn't have any reaction , not even after this , not telling about sending a few aircraft to intercept those bombers.

The history of the West is no shorter than that of China if your point was about longevity and continuity. So there is nothing much spectacular or outstanding about China in this respect. The history of Western civilization has just been more properly documented...

Also , China knows what happens when you fight a war alone and think numbers are enough :

Had to search a bit for the image
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/China_imperialism_cartoon.jpg/445px-China_imperialism_cartoon.jpg

China's interest is Taiwan, not Japan. China is claiming Taiwan and Taiwan is claiming China (the capital of "the Republic of China" known also as Taiwan is NanJing, in the mainland, but the temporary capital is Taipei)... guess who will win.

Taiwan?

Yes, it's recognized by only 23 countries in the world (January 2012). If you are a nation of Southeast Asia or Africa and you want to have diplomatic relations with China you must deny Taiwan as an independent state and close all relations with it.

My bet is still on Taiwan.

I had this image in my history book while I was in primary school  :D


Taiwan was actualy created in the chinese civil war, the nationalists fought the revolutionists and lost, they ran to the islands of Taiwan where they formed they own state,  communists  kept ruling the China as we know it today but  Taiwan and China should reunite peacefully in a couple of hundred years, but not by force and not soon :)

Go back a few centuries please.
Taiwan in 1500-1600 was Chinese like Poland.

No, wars are for money, nobody go to war, if he will lose more than he will win.

^
That.  Wake me up when the PLA masters basic 1960s Cold War tech, like aerial refueling.   ::)

We've got the Chi-coms contained and they know it.

...or basic 60's cold war tech like landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to earth - six times.  :D

I started to include that but the Soviets never got even one man to the moon, much less uber-kit like a phreaking Moon Buggy.

https://i.imgur.com/3oDSiBG.jpg

If that (and the golf) doesn't prove America owns the moon, nothing will!   :D

Lockean Proviso, Commie bitches!

China's population is rapidly ageing (so is Japan's, but the same can't be said about the US). If they want to start a war, then they should do it now.

Right now the number of Chinese male citizens reaching military age annually is 10,406,544. This can decline in the future.

War is not about the quantity of young men. It's about missile/bomb and air superiority.

The ability of a nation, to avoid demographic bleeding is also important in war. For example, Israel withdraw from Sinai in 1981, despite being much more technically superior than Egypt.

If a people want to die for god or ideas, you cannot stop them  :-\

Obvious hacked account.

After the last news I predict a lot of people who were China fans to turn back their eyes to the old Europe , who actually isn't that fucked up.

Spam scam, do not open.

I doubt that will happen,IMHO they will go to some committee,discuss for few days,everything sorted out with conditions and everything back to normal. it would take tons of stupid leaders to go into war which won't benefit any of the involved countries.

I think it will happen, but it will happen between a day and a geological era.

The problem I have is when people want others to die for their god or ideas...  ;)

no, it  wuld be self murder

yeah but that shouldn't be the problem with China&Japan, there is too much western influence here so I don't think they would kill just to kill :D
anyways, who do you think would win if such a war ever started?

My bet is 99% on Japan and 1% on the Panda Independence Army

No one is going to win. The war will wage on for decades, unless someone is going to use the nuclear bombs. Even with the US support, Japan will be unable to defeat China.

But it'll mean the complete collapse of the Japanese (and to a certain extent) the Chinese economies. A severe Economic recession will grip all the world nations.

Also, if such a war happen, it'll eclipse the WW2 in death count.

That is so true.  IMHO, I think China will win if they were to actually have a war.
Then the US will butt in..

Why???? Why do you and the others think China will win?
Because they bought a aircraft carrier piece of junk that never sailed from the late '80? and remodeled into .. something?

I don't think that China will win. If anything, she will be nuked into the Stone Age. But if we look deeper into the history, the conventional wars (China aside) are ultimately won by those countries which just happen to have more resources...

Resources won't matter this time.
By the time the steel is tuned into a tank and it's fitted with all the electronics the war will be over.
It's not like the ww2 anymore.

China will be vulnerable against nuke attacks by the allies of Japan (read the US).

China doesn't have the capacity to successfully counter an American nuclear attack (either missle-based or aircraft-based).

Also, it doesn't have the capacity to strike back at the US. The Chinese ICBMs are noway near the American and Russian ICBMs.

I don't think it will happen; it's little more than sabre rattling. But it would be cool if they did... http://endlessorigami.com/comic/china-and-japan-go-to-war/ (http://endlessorigami.com/comic/china-and-japan-go-to-war/)  ;D

EDIT: Oh, and to those discussing who would win and who has the biggest stick, I think we would all lose. :P

Do you know about the consequences if such an incident occurs? More than a hundred million people will lose their lives. World economy will collapse. Large number of people (perhaps including you) will lose their jobs, inflation can hit three-digits, there will be shortage of food and medicines...

You obviously didn't see the comic I linked to. And you seem to have also missed the "edit" (which was already there when you answered), in which I say pretty much the same thing you do, in not so many words...  :P

Lol... my apologies. Didn't checked the link although it was there by the time I replied.

I wonder what would happen if Japan started bullying Russia over disputed islands of South Sakhalin which were taken by Russia after the WWII. Formally they are still at war without peace treaty signed between the states...

Yes when world war 3....

Those small islands (or rather two small islands plus a few rocks) are completely worthless. On the other hand, valuable gas deposits are located near the Shankaku Islands (the reason for current problems).

So there is no chance of a conflict between Russia and Japan.

And Japan bullying Russia? Really? If Japan provokes Russia the latter will sweep the floor with the Japanese.

Russia is having the largest number of nuclear weapons in the world. They are having the best Inter-continental Ballistic Missiles. They are having the best air-defense system in the world. The Russian regular army alone numbers more than a million, with millions more in the reserves.

China is having just the manpower. Japan is having the technology. Russia have both.

But China did actually bully Russia in 1960s. It even came to armed clashes along the border. So we have Russia (then much more powerful and truculent USSR) not smashing China to smithereens (though China did suffer some human losses back then) and China which was not afraid to come to blows with a superior opponent. Has anything really changed since then (in respect to China, first of all)?

During the Sino-Soviet border conflict, the Russians over-ran Chinese positions in a few weeks time while suffering only a few dozen casualties (compared to ~ 1,000 for the PLA). China had its massive manpower. Wanted to check its' efficiency and therefore poked the Soviets. The Russians returned in kind and the Chinese kept quiet ever since.


At that time, the major conflict (Cold War) was between the USSR and the US. China was being regarded as a neutral nation, being mildly pro-USSR. An armed conflict with China could have turned the Cold war equilibrium against the Russians, given the massive American military infrastructure which existed at that time in Okinawa and Philippines.

Those small islands are almost 1/4 of Japan.
According to wikipedia:
"Sakhalin is a classic "primary sector of the economy" relying on oil and gas exports, coal mining, forestry, and fishing. Limited quantities of rye, wheat, oats, barley and vegetables are grown, although the growing season averages less than 100 days.[17]
Following the collapse of the Soviet Union and economic liberalization, Sakhalin has experienced an oil boom with extensive petroleum exploration and mining by most large oil multinational corporations. The oil and natural gas reserves contain an estimated 14 billion barrels (2.2 km³) of oil and 96 trillion cubic feet (2,700 km³) of gas and are being developed under production-sharing agreement contracts involving international oil companies like ExxonMobil and Shell."

So it seems that the Asian tiger has finally licked its wounds and is now searching for a new "prey" to sink its teeth into...

That border conflict was mostly used for testing purposes , both to equipment and the possible involvement  of the US.
The both sides understand it's better to stay calm and have a drink.

Those small islands may be completely worthless as such but he who controls them also controls the La Pérouse Strait which divides the southern part of Sakhalin from the northern part of the Japanese island of Hokkaido...

Both of you got it wrong. Japan has "defacto" agreed that the Sakhalin is a part of Russia. The ongoing dispute is regarding the Southern Kuril islands (on the North-east of Japan, far away from Sakhalin). These islands consists of three main islands (Iturup - 313,900 hectares, Kunashir - 149,000 ha, Shikotan - 22,500 ha) and a few rocks.

The funny thing is that there was never an ethnic Japanese population in these islands (unlike South Sakhalin). It was once inhabited by the now near-extinct Kuril Ainu tribe. Some 100-200 of them currently live in Russia, but they have lost their culture and language. In Japan, the few who had migrated to Hokkaido became extinct soon after the WW2. The current population of S Kurils is ~20,000 and almost entirely consisting of Whites.

However, Japan is home to the Hokkaido Ainu tribe (numbers around 15,000 mixed race individuals), which is distantly related to the Kuril Ainu.

So what's incorrect about my point exactly? It has been pretty well known (or rather obvious) since the end of the war that Russia grabbed these small islands in order to establish their control over the strait. In fact, Stalin at first was planning to occupy the whole island of Hokkaido

Please clarify what I got wrong...

Like that, it is only a smaller area, not very significant to the Japanese for reasons other than national pride. At least, that's how I see it.

See this:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9pe3hhMxg1rz307wo1_500.jpg

You said who ever controls Iturup and Kunashir will gain the control of also controls the La Pérouse Strait.

That is wrong. La Pérouse Strait is far away (North-west of the disputed area).

http://www.kirkspitzer.com/Kirks_Site/Blog/Entries/2013/7/18_China_Finds_A_Gap_In_Japans_Maritime_Chokepoints_files/northern%20straits.jpg

Yes, you are right about the names, but the truth is still by my side. The possession of these otherwise worthless islands allows Russia to get full control over that part of the sea (the Sea of Okhotsk to be precise)...

Sea of Okhostsk - Yes.

La Pérouse Strait - No.

Big difference. The ocean boundaries between Japan and Russia are undisputed and well defined up to the North of the Shiretoko peninsula. Only the marine region to the East of the Shiretoko peninsula is disputed.

How long should the US have this defense pact with Japan?  and if Japan causes the war with China why should the US side with Japan?  I am sick of the US trying to get involved in other nations' issues when we are arguing over islands with no clear answer.  Yes it's over islands but it's for economic reasons.  Why waste millions of lives for a relatively small economic win?

The US and Japan have history that makes that really awkward.  

The Armistice they hammered out at the end of WWII deprived Japan of the right to have an Army or Navy.  In return, the US offered to 'protect' the Japanese from outside aggressors.  Now, in fact the US hammered this so-called agreement down Japan's unwilling throat at the end of the war as effective terms of surrender, but it hasn't really been a bad agreement for either side -- so far.

That armistice is, AFAIK, still in effect.  The JDF is not an 'Army' in the technical sense, and can't be construed as one by International Law because, for as long as the Armistice has been in effect, it hasn't taken military action on soil controlled by another government. And for all that a lot of their "merchant marine" is heavily armed and owned by the government, they aren't a 'Navy' by the same token -- they have never taken overt hostile action against ships which are part of the armed forces of another nation, nor targeted land-based installations or forces on the sovereign territory of another government.

So, if China attacks Japan, the US would be forced to either take sides with Japan, or withdraw from the Armistice.  Neither of which they want to do, because they don't want to be in a war with China and they don't want to lose face in the International community by refusing to honor the terms of their Armistice, and they don't really want Japan released from a broken Armistice and free to officially rearm.

On the other hand, if the Japanese attack China, they'd be sacrificing their US protection (whatever that's worth with China) because that would make their forces into an Army/Navy, which would violate the Armistice at no cost to the US.  It would even leave the US free to come in on the side of China if they wanted to (or if the Chinese made it worth their time) after being 'betrayed' by the Japanese.

So, these islands aren't actually as worthless as they might look at first glance. Also, rhenium (one of the rarest elements in Earth's crust, used for making jet engine parts) was discovered in 1994 at Iturup island...

If Japan bullies Russia, US should not interfere.

But right now, that is not the case.

Let's look back to history:

1961: China invades Aksai Chin (until then administered by India) without any provocation. It is still under Chinese occupation

1965: China invades Dong-Yin (part of Taiwan). Status quo.

1967: China invades Sikkim (part of India). Indians expel PLA soldiers.

1969: China invades Damansky Island (part of USSR). The Soviet Red Army beat the living daylights out of PLA.

1974: China invades Paracel Islands (until then administered by Vietnam) without any provocation. It is still under Chinese occupation

1987: China invades Sumdorong Chu Valley (part of India). Status quo.

1988: China invades Johnson South Reef (part of Vietnam).  It is still under Chinese occupation

Now they want to invade Shenkaku Islands (Japan) and Scarborough Shoal (Philippines).

Tell me who are the bullies here.  ;D

this is kind of mindblown but I don't think China is going to be  able to succeed in such act once more as Japan is not India and we should also think about the influence of western countries  here :)
I don't think such a  war will happen, China is probably testing out Japan to see if  they could do this but as  we  saw Japan reacted  well and  a  war will most probably not happen :)

Nothing can be taken for granted. The Japanese military depends a lot on their American counterparts. Also, Japan is currently suffering from massive depopulation.

Honestly , I see that depopulation problem at no problem at all. In the upcoming years I think that we will have more and more countries thinking about population control.
It does not sound too good but it's something we have to face.
You don't need too many people in your country nowadays , workforce starts to get replaced by machines and even if there is a temporary need you don't really have a clue about what will be in 20 years when the newborns will be apt for work.

Depopulation is not a problem when it is uniform all over the world. Sadly, it is not the case. So we have South Korea on one side, where the women give birth to an average of 1.05 children in her lifetime, and Niger on the other side, where the same is 7.50.

International borders are getting more and more obsolete nowadays, and nothing can prevent the movement of people from overpopulated nations to the sparsely populated ones. In long term, that means the breakdown of cultural norms, and in the end it will result in the collapse of the nation as a whole.

In future, somewhere near 50% of the Japanese population will be elderly, and the economy won't be able to grow without significant immigration. 

Japan has an advantage there.
It's not that easy to get into and it's not so easy to get accustomed to their society.
They do have come up with 10, 20 and even 50 years plans , so I would guess they have a plan for this also.

Fuck china. They actin' like biyatches, yo.








That being said, they do have far more nuclear warheads than 200 - tunnels under taibai and networks of such underground storage is estimated to hide at least 2000-4000 nuclear warheads and possibly missiles.

If they do go to war, here's to hoping they permanently remove each other off the face of the earth and survivors migrate to africa or something.



For western nations, I am seeing a trend that is decidedly against immigration. Within the next decade or two, immigration will be severely curtailed, and many so-called 'immigrants' who have absolutely no reason to respect the nation of their residence will face a choice: Be removed by force, or leave of their own free will.

This is simply a balancing act against the irresponsible nature of immigration policies in those nations. No nation has any obligation to accept someone in just because they ask. In fact, such attitude warrants a foot on their throats. Each nation has their own legacies and roots that must be respected and obliged. If these immigrants cannot take it upon themselves to take this matter seriously, they are merely criminals and must be removed or killed with extreme prejudice.

This applies to all nations. Nigeria. India. Iran. Russia. China. Egypt. And all the nations of the West. No one is obligated to let someone it when they do not wish to do so.

I don't think so. On the other hand, I see the migration policies getting more and more liberalized.

The EU has almost finalized its plans to import 50 million African workers:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/65628/Secret-plot-to-let-50million-African-workers-into-EU

The US on the other-hand, is going to legalize some 20 million+ illegal immigrants.

The only nation which has so far violently reacted to illegal immigration (Russia) has significantly eased its policy since 2010.

For US, no such deal has passed the congress and had government consent. There are attempts, but I guarantee that criminal elements which plague the streets will change their faces within the next decade or two.

It may sound incredulous, but people are seeing reality instead of pipedreams now. The economic recession might actually have been a good dose of shock to people here in US which forced many people to realize  we must make some changes as to who we call 'Americans'.

Did you knew that this article is from 2008?
Also , just a quick view on the main page where you can see 20 titles with disaster , apocalypse and you'll realize what kind of paper you're quoting there.

Yes, I agree... you should stop calling those that caused the recession 'Americans'... :P

In relation to the illegal immigrants, give them a chance; they might actually be useful.

I agree that there is some amount of exaggeration. But it is no secret that right now that more than 1 million Somalis live in the EU. I am not talking about Nigerians, Kenyans.etc. Just the Somalis alone number more than 1 million.

I wonder why most somalis go to northern europe - finland and scandinavia.

Most people in the world see the northern countries as safe heavens. Also there is some kind of myth that you get enough social welfare even without working.

Finland doesn't have that much of a problem. The immigration laws are pretty toothless there too, but not as much as it is in Sweden.

Sweden on the other-hand is definitely lost. I don't have a problem if the Swedes want to replace the local population with Somalis. But my problem is that Swedish envoys always pressure other nations (especially Italy and Denmark) to relax their immigration rules. Swedish EU ministers have blasted the Italian policy of deporting asylum seekers to Libya, and last year they even threatened to fine Italy a few billion Euros for the same.

Sweden is every Somali's eternal dream. Just take a look here (http://islamversuseurope.blogspot.in/2013/12/somali-who-raped-dead-woman-will-be.html). No need to say anything more.

Dude, haven't you seen Code Geass?

Nope. I don't watch Japanese anime that frequently. What's it about?

It's about this son of an emperor who uses this hypnotic power to fight against an empire as a terrorist, really great story but as usual with these things they ruin it with stupid OP superpowers ( the hypnosis ) and alternate dimensions ( they all have those ridiculous endings where they fight each other in some weird alternate dimension ) :(.

Stargate suffered from that exact same problem and if you see any story writer immediately resort to time travel or alternate dimensions that means they're usually desperately digging for plotholes to continue the story or bring back peoples' favourite characters from the dead. The best one I had seen though was in Gundam where you have this guy the fans liked a lot as a character getting killed and then in the second season he suddenly gains an unmentioned twin brother who looks exactly like him and the whole cast sort of goes "Oh right you're back" as if I'm supposed to just completely ignore it and pretend the character didn't die >_<.

oops, went off into a rant about storylines that get ruined for the sake of a continued series and to appease a fanbase :D

They have robot armies in it. UAV are todays pilot test of what is to come. With robots who needs a lot of people?

Right now robots are not capable of doing all the maneuvers which the humans are capable of. They can only play a supporting role in the war zone. May be in 10-15 years it will be possible to replace regular armies with robots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1czBcnX1Ww :D you were saying?

Dude, it is here today!

Check to first minute or so of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zP7yP8hdLE :D:D:D

War would not benefit China in the slightest. They've got enough shit to worry about at home (most of china being either smog ridden or in poverty). Going to war doesn't make any sense, especially if you end up destroying or being destroyed by a valuable trade partner.

That's exactly why Germany started the WWII. They had got too much shit to worry about at home, and the blitzkrieg war was probably the only path for the power clique (at least they thought so) to slip out from the inevitable bankruptcy of the state and its socialistic policy...

Just a few days ago two dozen or so died in ethnic clashes inside China (Xinjiang province). Tibetans are protesting against the regime for many months now. The ethnic Chinese themselves are protesting against the corruption committed by the top officials. The conditions are now ripe.

I agree that there is a real risk of war, whether it will be between China and Japan or other countries is hard to say. As I see it war is not a long term beneficial investment, but I do believe that some factions in China see it that way. Especially starting with smaller clashes.

There are several reasons for why China would want at least a smaller war:

(1) hubris
(2) increasing international clout (the Philippines come to mind)
(3) using a common enemy to distract people at home from problems
(4) want of an empire

But I consider it almost equally likely that the declining hegemon (the US) would like to go to war with China (going through a proxy like Japan or Taiwan is one way to do it). In fact if the US managed to cut off China from a lot of international trade it would benefit immensely, because it could still get cheap manufacturing goods from other countries it has more control over. Additionally, increasing military spending is a great way to turn around the economy (like the US did in WW2).

However, I doubt China will be involved in a war soon. However within years it is not unlikely. How many I have no idea of.

The human form is not designed for fighting.
That's why we have tanks with tracks , planes with turbines not flapping wings and subs with no tails.
So , no giant robots fighting!

Also , even the UAV right now , they are unmmaned , but they need a person guiding them from the base.

You now chinas military size is over 4,500,000

4500000 Chinese vs 500 000 Japanese
First with chinese weapons , the second with western modern armament.

My bet is on Japan.
A tank can kill 1 million people with sticks but 1 million people with armed with rocks can't destroy a tank.

What is this nonsense? Everyone knows that humanoid giant robots are the ultimate fighting machines!*  ;D

(* may require watching one or more of the following: Gundam, Macross, Code Geas, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Furi Kuri, etc.)

I never managed to watch 1 episode of those.
But from all the references I saw in Gintama , I haven't missed anything :)

Also , was FLCL about robots? I thought it was about nonsense.

FLCL made no sense, it's about some alien girl with a magic guitar and after he hit the main character he could turn into a robot to fight bad guys when he feels threatened or something

and the two main characters have a romantic relationship even though she's 20 years old and the kid is like 10

but yeah Gintama is HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!

Also no China will not declare war on Japan.

If there is a war anytime soon, we are all FCKED.

http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/Nuclear-explosion-fireball-photo02.jpg

Yes, FLCL was a lot about nonsense, but nonsense involving giant robots... well, one or two of them were giant robots, the rest were about human sized.  ::)

PLA Ground Force - 1,700,000 (+ 800,000 reserves)

People's Liberation Army Navy - 290,000

People's Liberation Army Air Force - 330,000

The numbers are there for sure. But the vast majority of the PLA soldiers are very poorly trained as well as inadequately equipped with modern weapons. And the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force is far better in quality when compared to the People's Liberation Army Navy.

Or one could just watch Terminator and see the awesome power of the humanoid robot. :D

i dont think so.  A war with China would be great for the US economy and terrible for China. We owe China so much we could charge them for every missile and every loss. This is a no lose for the US. But war sucks and China should simply buy the Japanese interest in the islands in lieu of war.Either that or agree to share the oil reserves which is what this is really all about.

No. It will be bad for the US economy. Because the US is having the moral obligation to support Japan, there is no chance that the Americans are going to play neutral here. They will also be dragged in to the war, either willingly or unwillingly.

And the war in Iraq alone cost the American tax payers some $ 1 trillion. But it will pale in comparison to the expenses arising from a future war with China.

Lol, believing these stupid multimedia?

I think China should hodl on.

Of course one million people can destroy a tank.   A tank can't carry one million rounds of ammo.

Weapons manufacturers would still make a "killing" no pun intended.

According to my knowledge of tanks from movies, if you throw a grenade in the "gun shaft," the entire tank will explode, with the shrapnel killing all enemies in the engagement. Soon after, a white guy with recent battle wounds and a bitchin' name like Max Hardstaff sticks a US flag atop the tank's remains as patriotic music plays. All of the now-liberated dirty brown folk come out of their rubble-homes and cheer for the Americans while a bald eagle flies overhead.

Also - if enough Tibetan monks light themselves on fire, it seems to give members of Chinese resistance groups supernatural brain powers. They can stand in front of tanks and put up some kind of forcefield which stops them. I don't think it works if they're the aggressors, but I don't know.

Pacific Rim Jaegers xD

Im pretty sure china will kick our asses, they know kung fu, and they have the power to force people in the army, such as civilians.

Hollywood is the best weapon the US has got. No other weapon can brainwash billions of people around the globe. Have doubts? Go and watch In the Land of Blood and Honey  ;D

You should watch less movies. The locked gun breechblock withstands the gunshot itself and can't cope with a hand grenade, lol. Though you can indeed damage the gun barrel...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Breech_122m10_hameenlinna_2.jpg

Anyway there is only a very low chance that tanks will be used during a hypothetical China vs Japan war. Most of it will be fought in the ocean.

Well now theyre definately enemies, if you look at the news sources, the Japanese prime minister is not welcome to enter china anymore. :/

The Japanese politicians were never welcome in China. Things will remain the same for another century or so.  ;D

The Chinese are still bitter about the Japanese war crimes in the 1930s and 1940s. Japan has never apologized for any of that.

How do the Chinese people feel about the millions starved during the Mao Tse-Tung period in the 1950's? I think people have a more nuanced view than treating the whole thing like some kind of football team rivalry. The governments were at war, not the people. The governments starved their people, or sold land to foreign hegemons for military bases, not the people.

Should the people o something about it, since they all own the country not just one person.

The Chinese history texts and schoolbooks don't even mention about the tens of millions of people who were killed by the communists from the 1930s to the 1950s. On the other hand, they exaggerate the Japanese atrocities. It is easier to exert control over the population by whipping up the nationalist passion, and this has been realized by the current government of China.

And the Japanese schoolbooks gloss over the Japanese atrocities in WW2.

They do. As I have mentioned earlier, Japan has never apologized for the tens of millions of foreign civilians who were killed by their soldiers. The atrocities occurred not only in China, but also in South-east Asia, Philippines and Oceania.

Who are China's allies today?

I'm sure the US textbooks gloss over the american atrocities as well.

I remember the authorities ordered internment and relocation of over 100,000 people of Japanese heritage in 1942, soon after Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor. Do they also gloss over it in textbooks and does it count as American atrocities at all?

What about nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Anyone whom they can bribe. Examples are Sudan, Angola, Sri Lanka, Pakistan.etc

China will defeat Japan easily, but though we will have to go to war with them as we also are their allies.

lol.... which type of weed are you smoking? The Japanese military is very strong and they can match the PLA in almost every single department. And in the naval sector, I think the Japanese are more powerful when compared to the Chinese. And in addition to all this, they have military support from the US.

Smoking? Really?! Military support from the USA aside, a pair of nuclear strikes (if there is fate, then it would be that) would quickly cool down some hotheads in the Japanese military, and they would quickly become amenable and friendly towards China...

Japan is nothing without the USA behind, covering their ass from kicking

Sativa Trainwreck, and no, Japan is small, China is bigger, they can just send them all over to invade and nothing but chinese army forces will be in Japan.

LOOOL
Do you guys still live in the dark ages?
Numbers alone don't matter anymore , it's technology.
And the jsdf is fair superior to china and their rusted Russian bathtub.

Yeah, numbers don't matter anymore, unless these are nuclear warheads. Who is living in the dark ages really?

Do you actually think that an authority which didn't care a damn thing about starving to death a few tens of millions of their own population would care much more about wiping off any number of people they consider between themselves as their worst enemies?

Before  pushing the buttons they will think what is going to happen if they turn a conventional war in a nuclear one.
It's far more likely that they will be the ones nuked by every other nuclear power , with the sole reason to make sure nobody is using them again in the future.
One war to end all wars :).

Also , I don't think Chinese rockets will hit Japan, if I look on how they fake everything , including btc volume , I doubt they have a flying one :).

PS.
Why haven't India and Pakistan used their weapons until know?

Actually, they don't ever need to turn a conventional war into a nuclear one, suffice would it be to strike with conventional missiles to Japan's nuclear plants. The effect would then be even worse than direct nuking Japan...

I thought it had been only americans with their humans-to-Moon show... And now it is China following their steps, lol!

They've had a missile program since the 50s, and currently have an active space program. I'm pretty sure they know how to make rockets hit Japan.  :P

EDIT: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/14/chinese-spacecraft-lands-moon-china (http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/14/chinese-spacecraft-lands-moon-china)

As somebody that lived 600km away from Chernobyl , I can tell you that's one bad idea.
Aggression comes back to you gif needed here.

Because they are not China. As simple as that. When there was a kind of coup d'etat in Pakistan a few years ago, it had become known that their nuclear weapons do not belong to them. I mean at least they don't control nuclear missiles (or whatever), that is, they may not actually push buttons, lol...

Guys, agreed. Nuclear warheads can change everything. But do you know one thing? China is not capable of striking any of the major Japanese cities with its nuclear weapons. Chinese missiles are not as capable as the Russian and American ones, while the Japanese air-defense systems are one of the best. No chance for the PLA. Sorry.  ;D

Yeah , buy them from the Russians. :).

Know what? In 2012, the Russians refused to sell their S-300 air-defense batteries to China. Do you know the reason? They were afraid that the Chinese will plagiarize the Russian weapons.  ;D

No , they were fakes , :))).
They tried to launch them but the Pakistani manning the slingshot have already fled to the UK.

Now you should see that they can do even more damage without ever taking to nuclear attacks, right? Should they still be nuked by every other nuclear power out there?

They don't even need to hit any major Japanese cities with their nuclear weapons. it will be enough to blow some bombs near the Japanese shore (or in the air) to make the whole island a radioactive wasteland...

Chinese are already on the Moon (the third in history), and you say they can't hit a Japanese city, lol...

Lols, isn't this assumption making japan look even more dangerous to the chinese?
They too have now a way of unleashing nuclear bombs :).
Blow up the chinese nuclear plants.  Have a origami bird fly into on of the reactors and bye bye China.

Now seriously , nobody gives a damn about China and their army.
It's one big fake , like the volume on btchina and now houbi or shubi or kyuubi how is it's name.

if that war was to break out. it would be the start of ww3. china is a power house. and if they put the manufacturing plants to warfare production. they could very well wipe japan off the map.

China's defence spending has doubled every year since 1989. If war broke out china would I blieve have plently of anti satellite missiles ready, that would really hurt the US/japan tech based warfare. 

A key element of China's defenses is its growing stockpile of ballistic and cruise missiles that have enough range to blanket much of Asia. its DF-21D "aircraft carrier killer" missile, That has a range of 3000 km and is specially designed to target the U.S. navy.

I don't think that even in this scenario some industrial zones in China would be far worse from what they are now. Also note that China's territory is the third largest in the world, and it would be so much different for them...

http://gorillafilmmagazineblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/e-wasteland-01.jpeg

This is not ww2 and not ww1.
Those plants cant be changed to produce tanks instead of tractors. It's not that age anymore , they are designed for a specific purpose and rather that switching is cheaper and easier to build it from scratch.
Also , by the time the first new aircraft is finished the war will be long over.

Well , since I've been to China and I could breath the "air" around there , probably the chinese will survive even a post nuclear scenario.
But seriously , that country is turning into a dump.

And with all their "technology" they can't stop the desert advancing and destroying agricultural land.

Still, isn't China's defense spending a miniscule portion of what the US spends? In fact, I think the total Chinese defense spending is less than what the US spends in research alone.

really :D :D :D :D :D


How would the war be long over. because the US will come to japan aid. and get in and get out. hahaha.

yea because the US went to war with a few camel jockeys with ak47 and it still took years.
or how about the last time the US went to war with china via proxy korean war. how did that end again. quick in and out yea???

and I was not talking about the factories themselves I was talking about the chinese ability to produce. where as in the US they don't and cant manufacture anything.

China’s 2013 Military Budget went up 10.7% $114.3 Billion and is spending much more on defense than it discloses. In 2012, the DoD estimates China spent between $135 billion and $215 billion on military-related expenditures.

The war in Afghanistan that fallowed was not a conventional war. They trashed both the afghan army and the irak in less than one month.
You can't end a war if you think that as long as there is one person holding an ak rifle one party isn't defeated. By that measure ww2 isn't yet over. There are still some japanese in isolated islands still at war. And that's no joke.

Also you're talking about the Korean war which is almost as old as the ww2.

Any all out war that concerns 2 nuclear powers is likely to end in disaster.  It seem slikely that the side losing will make up some reason to resort to using nukes and then it's game over.  The countries that were not in the war will end up being the winners, forget the one who "wins" the war, if that is even possible in a nuke war.

China buying up useless hardware and a second-hand Russian aircraft carrier (which is actually good for nothing) is not going to help them. Japan is having the best technology. China won't be able to match it even with a 10x budget.

That was actually just a bit of bad propaganda to make the Japanese look like war-crazy ultra-nationalists.

And it definitely can't be true in 2014, the soldiers doing this would be in their late 80's and 90's.

that is there first. china are currently building a 110,000-ton nuclear-powered 'super aircraft carrier' that will be ready in 2015 with more planed.

You obviously seem to be stuck with that "useless hardware and Russian aircraft carrier". Hey, wake up already, China is on the Moon now with their "inferior" technology, not Japan with its "best" technology. Why are you so deep in denial? One warhead blown over Tokyo would send all the Japanese tech superiority to dust and ashes...

I will believe it when I watch it in action. If China is having such capability, then why it didn't build its current aircraft carrier, rather than buying up second hand junk from Russia? Even now the PLAN is in possession of just ONE aircraft carrier (the former Soviet carrier Varyag).

No matter what way you look at it they are not the defenseless towel heads the US are used to pushing around. they can bite back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAYzkqYl-oA

Yes. China put some unmanned vehicle in the moon. So what? The US had achieved that four decades ago. Do you have any idea how many aircraft carriers which currently serves under the Japanese navy?

Hey, we were talking about China vs Japan and the tech superiority of the latter before the former (from your words), and now you talk about the USA, lol. What about the Japanese launching something to the Moon really?

I already told you that just one warhead thrown and the deal is over for Japan. Is it that hard to understand? Japan taken by itself is not a match for China, period

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/may/28/secondworldwar.japan

Well , not sure if its' real or not but there were some people out there claiming to be soldiers.
So , based on the previous users assumption , the war isn't over right? We still have a nut with a rifle , not an ak , so japan isn't defeated yet.

The Japanese sent a rocket to the moon 17 years before the Chinese.  hiten vs chang'n

They abandoned the program because it wasn't cost effective and no real objective beyond.
The Chinese are wasting money on propaganda , just like the Americans did with the Apollo.

Oh, really? According to this (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/20766957/) they launched their first lunar orbiter only in 2007 (not just a fly-by mission)... Not quite 17 years before the Chinese, especially when taking into account that the latter launched their first orbiter in the same year...

And the facts still somehow contradict your assertion that they abandoned the program

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiten

I didn't find anything there that would say that they landed or at least tried to land something to the Moon (if you don't consider as landing crashing into). Japan didn't land anything there, and China is the third country after Russia and the USA to have actually sent anything to the Moon (and successfully landed there). At first one of you begins to talk about the USA successes (switching from Japan's in question) and then the other about what is not relevant to the point (and lying at that about the Japanese no longer being interested in the program), lol...

To the moon, that was your post.
Although I appreciate people who try to argue about how what they say are true , I hate people who twist their words to come to the same conclusion.

You can argue about the Chinese high tech but still:
They haven't been able to build a single nuclear factory by their own , they haven't been able to build an air carrier by their own , they haven't been able to build a commercial plane by their own. Their own bullet train was a total "success".
More bridges have collapsed since 2000 in China than in Europe since 1900.
Now really...

And you know the most humiliating stuff is ? That the best roads in China are actually built by Japanese and Korean companies.

China is a fake one big fake and since we're here on bitcointalk , all that came from China were fake , fake and again fake numbers.
And , god help us when this Chinese bubble will burst  (not bitcoin related).

I think it is pretty obvious what I'm talking about here, and what my words refer to , i.e. the Chinese flying to the Moon and soft landing there (don't try these petty semantics tricks with me, they won't do). Though you are right, you may start hating yourself, since now you have all the reasons for that (and don't forget to add to this your outright lies about the Japanese losing interest in the Moon). You may call China twice as fake (or even more), but this won't help you change the fact that it is their rover which successfully landed there now and is alive and kicking, not the Japanese one...

If this Chinese bubble is fake, what then are you afraid of really?

I'm afraid of the people reacting like something serious is happening. Just like in the btc story.
I warned people since November that Chinese numbers are fakes , and even that it is proven now they were fakes . we had a crash , based mostly on speculation.

This will also happen when the Chinese dragon will reveal itself as being made of paper , cheap one 2. Lot's of people will make very wrong decisions influenced by the news and they will trigger an avalanche.

Unless it comes back with some martian super weapon , Japan will still kick china's ass in a war :).

Unfortunately for me I've lived too much in a communist country to know what propaganda is , I still can't HODL my laugh when people I meet and talk with tell me how advanced and powerful the Russian army was :) , too bad it lacked weapons , fuel, fighters that managed to land twice without crashing and people that won't run away with the enemy. =)).

Some bryant.coleman says here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=348227.msg3877712#msg3877712) that Russia is having the largest number of nuclear weapons in the world which make the best intercontinental ballistic missiles out there as well as the best air-defense systems in the world...

Do you really think I would rather believe you after you faked the Chinese landing on the Moon?

Depends which of us actually drove a Russian tank while in the army :))).
Which was supposed to be on of the best tanks in the world.. to bad nobody managed to get over 75% hit that piece of garbage when the auto loader didn't fail at least =))).

Just like the Kalashnikov is a very good gun , works in snow mud water , too bad that when it comes to actually hitting something you have to empty 3 rounds to hit the damn elephant.

I don't ignore anyone, but this would be enough to put you there, since this would overwhelm the amount of garbage you produce here. I think that the choice of millions of rebels, insurgents, and whatnot who can part with their life any day speaks louder than your words...

Even US special forces used captured AK-47's in Vietnam, lol

Common don't be a moron , the ak is one inaccurate piece of garbage.
It works wonders in close combat and in ambushes but when the targets gets beyond 200 you have to switch weapons or dig your way to hell.

It's one simple weapon and you can even pee on it and it will work (did that with one of my fellows's ak)  ,but there are tons more which I would prefer if my country would send me to the battlefield.

Have you ever fired with one?

I wouldn't expect people choose garbage if their whole life depended on it. You seem to be very far from reality and still parting. Just quoting below some American SpecOps guy


And yes, I'm more than familiar with AK-74, lol

God damn , you're Russian if i'm right , and since conscription is still mandatory , you should have fired one .
What was your hit rate , and at what distance?

Common , the ak is just another myth , like the migs and that damn T I spent wasted 12 months cramped in.
Take the MIGs for example , they went fast and furious in the beginning and now they have more crashes due to failures than the enemy shot down.
And if we talk about how many enemies the migs did hit lately.....
Times are changing and the Russian and Chinese weapons are falling behind.

People cling to memories here ...like people saying the nokia 3210 is the best phone ever made.

People whose life is at stake aren't easily taken on myths. Try selling your shit to someone else, I'm definitely not the right type to apply to...

That was mostly about how distinctive the sounds of the weapons are.  US soldiers with M16 Rifles were easily identifiable in a firefight, but AKs sounded like the locals.  Because the US had better Infrared/Nightvision/C³I, we were confident of being able to tell friend from foe regardless of the sound, but hoped the Viet Cong wouldn't be able to tell who was whom in the dark. 

During daylight engagements, everybody wanted the M16s because they were a hell of a lot more accurate and more effective at longer ranges.

Yes, since its barrel is almost 4 inches longer. A sniper rifle would still be better...

'Struth, but sniper rifles don't get issued to just anybody, and we were using the 5.56mm rounds with the M16s so the 7.62mm rounds for the sniper rifles would have been a supply issue. 

AK's were locally abundant, and the quartermaster could get ammo easily from the black market, which meant he didn't have to go through top brass and we could often have ammo in hand faster than if he had.  That had its down side too; some of the guys used AK's, which were sort of 'invisible' to paperwork for us, for ops that top brass definitely would not have approved.

Wohoo Wo Wo!!!!

Now your getting serious. The 3210 was and still is a legend. how dare you dis the greatest bit of tech ever made, ;)


with that statement, you just lost your argument.

I bid you goodnight sir 8)

Yes. I said that and I stand by firmly over what I said. Russia is another game altogether. China and Japan can't match Russia. China has manpower, Japan has technology. Russia has both.

Would you trade your phone for a 3210? Would you still use a 3210?

I loved that phone , and the 3330 , and I kept a t68i for 4 years repairing it two times after I dropped once and my dog bite it once , refusing to switch to a new one for a long time but... I wouldn't use them again.
Just like you said they are legends , nice to remember but in practice... useless.

So , would you trade your phone for a 3210? I think i still have it somewhere , and it was functional the last time I checked.

Oh man so many memories with that phone...thanks for the flashbacks.

Having said that, I couldn't trade my HTC One for it.