Bitcoin Forum

Just curious... stopped paying attention for a week, and now all of a sudden we're at 8 bucks.

most likely all of the stolen bitcoins from mybitcoin are being laundered and converted to cash.

I think it has something to do with the world markets taking a hit this week.

I was thinking a massive loss in confidence is far more likely.

Probably.  There has been nothing 'exciting' happening in the BTC scene for a while.  I am hoping for a magical rebound once school starts and young undergrads start buying their drugs through Silk Road, but that is a huge if.

i think its only going to get worst.

when poeple get their bitcoin back from mybitcoin, what do you think there gana do, sell....

What?

Well most have a price at which they will stop mining. I also have a price at which I stop selling and that already happened. I will just hold coins going forward until a rebound. Why people keep dumping is beyond me. Even if your mining and cashing out immediately to cover costs at least only cash out what costs you have to pay for and hold any profit.

ya mybitcoin has setup a claim process... most likely poeple wont get all their btc back but the little they get back they will possibly sell

A massive influx of new capital is needed so that we can all cash out at USD $1000 and live like kings. Talk it up with all your most gullible friends, relatives and acquaintances.

now theirs an idea...... lets screw over all our friends and relatives

Nah... I doubt people will get anything back from mybitcoin (tens of thousands dumped into the market recently does not look promising), but if they do, they'd be stupid to sell off immediately, and they know it.

in anycase these low prices are likely to stick with us for a while.

everytime the market will go up, poeple will think its a good time to get out... making the price stable at about 10$ for weeks IMO

Look at the bright side...maybe we won't need to shift the decimal place as soon as we thought.  And if it collapses, we can always burn our worthless bitcoin to heat our homes in the winter (oh wait, nm...I guess fiat currency does have some intrinsic value after all).

;D

LOL

Maybe the drop in price is causing investors to dump their BTC in large amounts?

I agree, confidence in bitcoin has taken yet another hit, but not unlike other markets I believe it will return back to $10 - $13 in the coming weeks as well.

I see 5970's on ebay once again for "Buy it now" which rarely ever happened since the beginning of bitcoin mining.

lol, are you going to buy durning this disaster?

i for one think, bitcoin will only get stronger, faster because of this... its had so many disasters,  good news coming soon!

I honestly don't see a problem - nothing has changed really. Bitcoin isn't supposed to be a get-rich-quick scheme. The system behind Bitcoin is as strong as ever - we have more exchanges, more merchants, more hashing power, more users, etc. than we had a month ago.

I don't see why anybody would sell all his/her Bitcoins now - those who believe in the unique qualities of Bitcoin obviously won't sell because they haven't changed a bit. People who are just here for some quick buck could hardly have chosen a worse time to sell either...

My guess is it's mostly speculators which sell low but hope to buy back again even lower.

Anyway - lower prices also lower the barrier of entry for new people so go and sell away all you like :)

Excluding hardware costs, what is the USD cost of electricity required to generate 1 BTC?

That's the price around which BTC will stabilize, I think. If the price is higher than that cost, miners will generate new coins and sell to push the price down. Below that cost and the miners will turn off their mining rigs. Since they are not mining at that point, they won't have new BTC to sell. Of course other sellers could continue to aggressively push the price down but at least the miners won't be the ones doing the selling.

I know it sounds trite... but the simple reason is that most of the market has decided BTC is not as valuable as many here think.
It was a bubble and this is how bubbles burst. Often taking the price lower then what the majority are willing to pay if they like
it or not.

actually its very simple. europeans have a hard time getting money into the system without sepa transfers.

Yup, I can see already by the next difficulty prediction difficulty might actually go down potentially, but I agree with your overall assessment that miners will continue to mine as long as they can pay for electricity.

miners want to sell high like everyone else, the last thing they want is to push the price down.
if the miner start turning of the rigs the difficultly will go down making it possible for small time miners to get back in the game.

the cost of btc will always be as high as poeple are willing to pay, and not as low as the miners are willing to sell. IMO

Nope, buying the coin is way cheaper than to mine the coin =)

Honestly I think that with all the stuff that has happened $8 is a pretty decent price. To me it means that Bitcoin is already well bootstrapped with true believers like me.

Probably a combination of many things.  I don't think the Mt.Gox effect has gone away fully.

And as someone else noted, the MyBitCoin.com situation.

All it takes is one big fish with 25,000 to wipe out the market.

They can take all the money, and leave none. Who's going to buy a coin at $2 if the price is $0.50.


Only 25,000 coins needed and there is 7 million coins out there?


My magic eight ball knows the answer to this: "Outlook not so good."

I think there are a few large actors selling stolen coins which is driving the market down and spooking some of the smaller players, who are then also selling.  The security breaches of late aren't helping either, and many people probably feel more comfortable having their assets in a traditional bank.  The lower prices have given me an opportunity to buy back some of the coins I wish I hadn't sold, so I'm not complaining.  Until someone comes out with a better decentralized, peer-to-peer currency, I'm not going anywhere.  We will eventually work through the problems.

lets say the price goes to 0.01$ because some stupid person sold all 25,000 btc all at once

ok now i go on and i set my price I'm wiling to sell at, i put 15$, and i wait. will my order be filled? if everyone feels their btc have value then they do, doesn't matter what the last poor fools sold their bitcoins at

the only bubble was when it went from 16 to 30, that was the bubble.
However, due to either vengeance or pure greed someone has a strangehold over mt gox.
This strangehold cascades out into the other exchanges simply because of everyone else arbitrating.
What we are witnessing is simply the end, unless the method and manner of which makes this possible is outlawed, and that won't happen. So, thanks for the fish! xD

omg he said it this is the end people! SELL SELL SELL  :P

hahah, I know, but what is really dangerous right this moment is the amount of coverage bitcoin is getting in the press from somewhat reputable sources. can't expect the person or person(s) doing it are ever going to stop.

bad thing is, anyone with enough money can use the method.

the more people buy in, the bigger the fucker gets, then when it gets low enough, and people still don't see it or recognize it, even more people will buy in thinking it's going to go back.
eventually are our base are belong to them.

if you want financial advice.
Hold your money very firmly.

Agreed, there's a direct correlation every time there is a heist of coins.

Regular equity markets should have no effect; people are selling their coins now so that they can get "something" for them
instead of letting them go to 0.

CLASSIC PANIC SELLING

Bitcoin will more than likely rebound until the next scam hits.

but that is too easy, why would crooked hats sell?

the core of the bitcoin community will not be affect by media.....its like star trek! at first it tanked and then the die hard fans brought it back to life. i foresee something similar with bitcion. what they did for star trek with special effects we will do for bitcoin with high end security.

hehehe

This is true. The only reason price has been so god damned volatile in the past is because bitcoins were being sold for X10 what it costs to actually produce them, giving people plenty of options for pricing. Once the btc cost to mine is just break even, price will not fluctuate too much. People won't be selling for less than they're worth (an individuals cost to mine them)

is the market on a rebound ?

BUY BUY BUY!

damn i wish i had some money in the Canadian Virtual Exchange... i sent money today, by the time it gets there the market will have recovered :(

Story of my life! Every time!

I did too... Got there in 30 minutes! Got to love interac!

I hope this is TNG!
at least the Continuum took away Q's powers for a little while. xD

the price of btc has very little to do with how much it cost to make them... its all about supply and demand.  its like gold and steal... doesn't cost more to mine gold, but gold is more valuable cuz there is less of it and lots of people want it.... and "they" hold tones of gold in a safe somewhere to lower the supply.

we are bitcoin
your technological and biological products will be adapted to service us
resistance is futile

I think everyone is just decided to start buying Bismuth Crystals instead.

http://www.amazingrust.com/Experiments/how_to/Images/BismuthCrystal_big.jpg

True libertarian dream come true, buy bitsmuth crystal, take picture of Bismuth crystal, sell digital copies of picture, profit!

FTFY

but didn't Jane bomb their wormholes in Voyager and started a rebellion using their digital astral plane?

that was the borg.

we are bitcoin
prepare to be bought out.
resistance is futile

So the markets tank and bitcoin tanks even more! So much for it being a safe haven from fiat money......

quickly get out while you still can!

I would argue even if Bitcoin fell to $1 per BTC it would still be a safe haven from the doom that is the dollar.

please watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dmPchuXIXQ

Indeed.  Although the 2nd half is a little creepy sounding to me.

Why BTC is down the toilet (from an exchange point of view):

- Mt. Gox "hack" (this was the beginning of the downward movement and most improtant key factor to all of this) / FIRST big hit

- Mt. Gox rollback (very bad for serious investors)

- Realizing that almost no site/exchange is regulated (they more or less all could cut and run w/o any repercussions)

- Closing of EUR-Sepa transfer to/from Mt Gox / SECOND big hit

- many sites having problems / growing pains / insufficient security / insufficient customer service / insuffscient useabilty

- Trojans / Keylogger => many thefts, some of them huge

- US announcing law against virtual currencies including bitcoin (from 27th of September, if i recall correctly)

- Dwolla-Frauds / THIRD big hit

- MyBitcoin Scam & Bruce announcing to have lost 25k BTC along with many "new" merchants PLUS massive sell-offs / FOURTH big hit

- investors realizing that even though there is/was great potential for profit, bitcoin is not yet mature enough as an financial asset


BTW: I predict the prize will go sub 5.00 USD wihtin the next 72 hours (at least for a small time).



All of this has NOTHING to do with Bitcoin itself, but the problem remains: a currency is only as valuable as it is regarded by it's users:

- store of vaule
(short/mid: unless you are a miner who has free electricity or earns enough fiat otherwise that electicity is not a problem AT ALL - you have to consider fiat exchange rates since most people bought BTC with fiat; long-term: too uncertain - BTC might die completly or be replaced by a better version or somehow made illegal)

- medium of exchange (honestly, although I admire the the spark and the many, many projects in dev, ATM it's a joke)
(for dark market: too volatile, still too traceable)

- anonymity: not strong enough, too complicated to most people, too many vectors of failiure

- liquidity: non-existent for most users
(no EUR-SEPA anywhere, dwolla debacle, Paxum charges 50 USD for bankwires, for big players - not enough volume anywhere)


IF you can afford to hold you should hold and buy though, because when all of the above problems are solved the true potential will unfold itself. BUT this only works IF you can afford to loose everything you invested so far (because it very likely could also go down the drain completly) AND you earn enough fiat till BTC will be more or less stable AND widely accepted.

That's the problem ! (These conditions do not apply to most useres atm).

Intersango & bitmarket.eu?

Intersango - too small volume

Bitmarket.eu - person-to-person (meaning delays in exchange with bank wire) and too small volume as well

(look at the prices: while the mt. gox rate goes down and down people still want to sell at 7-8 Euro: no one who invests (like in other assets) would buy for a 41-42% premium (EUR/USD=1,42); only hard-core believers who earn enough fiat and are able to "wait" it out can afford to do so - extreme minority)

This is incorrect.  The price fell to $10 from the all-time high about a week before the MtGox hack and downtime.

Yeah it is looking to be a major crash.

There is a good and a bad way to view this:

The bad: Hackers and thieves just fucked up the biggest possibility for real electronic money the world has ever seen,  and maybe will see for a long time?

The good: If the prices tank fast enough, all those hackers and thieves may not have sold out fast enough and barely get jack shit for all their "effort" Fuck em.

The markets are down across the board. Most likely people are trying to get to less risky investments and don't see the difference between a bitcoin and a buck.

Which would not have been a problem if the subsequent "hack" and all the other desasters did not occur.

It would've been forgotten for long by now.

this is why internet forums are filled with idiots.  This did not happen, you are just another clueless dumb fuk posting random anonymous thoughts that fill that
empty vacuous object called your head.

What drivel this place spews.

You're just guessing now. Iron ore sells for around 113$ US per tonne, and 1/3 of that ore is converted to steel. The cost of mining gold is around $300 per ounce, and on average maybe 3 tons of ore are required to get one ounce.

The mining costs for gold are obviously MUCH higher because you've got to move much much more ore to get any metal.

So I would also imagine that your speculation in the link between the cost of mining bitcoin versus their price, to be also a guess. IE wrong.

I just checked #bitcoin-market, and I still see a big difference between a bitcoin and a buck. About $6.50 difference in fact.
We should be celebrating still, as we not only are still in the act of breaking the dollar parity barrier but also various other currency's units parity barriers. Which national currencies are worth more than 1 bitcoin per 1 of their main unit currently?

I do agree though that trying to compare with and exchange with fiat is a horrible mess, we should continue equipping as many nations as possible with their own national blockchain-based currency even if there is little to no chance of their government actually thanking us for doing so. At least it will let the speculators speculate between umpteen "national currencies" without having to deal with the crap the fiat system seemingly makes anyone go through who they suspect might be trying to move out of fiat... (oh you are moving out? well don't forget we will be happy to charge that back at any moment for you, thereby screwing those who like you apparently are interested in a non fiat currency...)

-MarkM-

Which national currencies are worth more than 1 bitcoin per 1 of their main unit currently?

None. As far as i konw the british pound sterling and the latvian lat has the most value/unit.
(Maybe there are more exotic ones though?)

All the major currencies are (still) far below parity:

USD below
EUR below
GBP below
JPN below

CHF below
AUD below
CAD below
NDZ below
HKD below

PLN below
CSK below
NOK below
SEK below
DEK below
ZAR below

RNB/CNY below

LVL (Latvian Lat) = 1,41 EUR (still below)


Well, does anyone know a currency which has a higher value/unit as LVL? (A little off topic but would be intersting)

What I meant is that the same people who are investing money in stocks are investing in bitcoin, so a contraction in the stock market leads to a contraction in bitcoin. Up until this point bitcoin has been controlled by traders - hence the focus on API's and exchanges, etc. Bitcoin needs to be focused on a good and service based economy.

Unfortuantely this will take much longer and is much more complicated than setting up a bunch of decent exchanges.


But, yeah it would be great if bitcoin survived until then.

when BTC hit the main stream media, the silkroad news, a lot of newbs pilled in & prob a few very big players (VBPs) too I'm guessing - the sort who would pump & dump, try & manipulate the relatively small BTC exchanges by being able to move very large amounts in & out as they choose

when Mt.Gox had it's time out probelms this must have been very stessfull for any of the VBPs who would certainly hold super large positions there, I doubt that they would have been naive enough to also use the MBC wallet & we have yet to hear just how many BTC were stolen through there last week & are now being liquidated at any price (it's all profit anyway for them & these peeps will likely move to cash asap - it's not like they are going to have too much faith in BTC ongoing except as an easy pickings to plunder) & this lack of info leads to great downside uncertainty as others cash out more & more the longer this now inside info is held back

with the recent general economy financial market losses & uncertainty some of the VBPs may choose or need to liquidate something to cover losses elsewhere or to take up volatility oportunities now, what's first choice to liquidate but those pesky BTC holdings, especially if they've already done nicely driving them up & dumping them back down again?

many of the newbs may be cooling to thier BTC holdings as they see all the recent news, reaslise it's damn hard for the average non geek atm to keep them securly, plus they're worth a lot less since that influx so any they held are well down

I was one of the SR news newbs though only started to buy this week, mostly orders being met today through britcoin.co.uk which has Internet banking transfers cleared in under 2 hrs & hopefully very soon I will be doing the same through Mt.Gox too (crosses many fingers with that) which accept the same fast UK transfers in but don't provide that service out - as I intend to hold the BTCs (away from all exchanges) that's no prob & I can always transfer them to sell at Britcoin if I wished to cash out in GBP fast

anyway just some look at what a new entry guy is doing here in BTC world atm, I would really like to build up a nice numeric stash of these virtual items & right now seems like a good time to be doing it, other than that I've been 100% in gold since March 2007 with silver too & other precious metal collectables from 2002 onwards - I hope that I can still spot a winner & a good vehicle to bet against the sure fire fiat fiascos out there

edited a couple/few times for typos - more clarity, nothing major...

Just keep mining, you get heat and you get Bitcoins that will be worth thousands a piece in the future.

Meh.  That is pretty much just a matter of convention and history.  The value of a unit of currency isn't a real thing on an objective scale, it is just a sort of meaningless number.  Since it doesn't mean anything, it could just as well have been any other number.  If everyone woke up tomorrow the dollar was worth 10 times as much, with all prices and records (including memories) adjusted appropriately, you'd never notice the difference.

In the same way, if the block generation reward was 500 BTC, coins would be worth 73 cents right now.  And we would never know the difference.

Yep agreed, it means nothing but there is a psychological effect I'd imagine, just for interest the highest value currency units can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest-valued_currency_unit

the highest being the Kuwaiti dinar at $3.64 per unit, or if BTC is about $8.30 atm then they're worth 2.28 dinars each & if BTC were listed as a currency unit on that Wiki they would top the list

I find of interest the BTC price in $ gold grams which at $53.48 / gram gives a BTC value of 0.155 gold grams, it's bubble peak of $30 against roughly $50/gm for gold giving it's max so far at around 0.6 of a gold gram, if one day it gets parity against the steadily rising gold price per gram in dollars that will be a major milestone & very newsworthy

holding out for gold OUNCE parity  ;D

This talk of parity is silly.  It's meaningless.  We could all agree tomorrow to shift the decimal place 1 position and the price of bitcoin would be back below $1.  The kind of parity I'm interested in is when the value of all bitcoin in existence matches or exceeds the total value of some other currency in existence.  Bitcoin has a long way to go.

Not a problem! The Republic of Bitcoin's First National Bank of Bitcoin can easily back each and every Bitcoin with up to four bitcoins plus interest of Bitcoin Treasury Notes, so Bitcoins are actually worth four bitcoins plus interest each provided the Bitcoin Citizenry is wise enough and far-sighted enough not to let the politicians talk them out of granting  said bank its charter! See the Republic of Bitcoin thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=32264.0) for details!

-MarkM-

:) that'd be nice, assuming gold keeps pwning the fiats as it's being doing

Re: The BTC community could just agree to shift the decimal point, not so, a bitcoin is a unit - there will be 21 million of them eventually less the many that become irretrievable due to lost private keys etc, they can be divided by the 8 decimal points but those are always going to be fractions of a BTC just as a unit of 10 or 100 BTC will be just that also, so it is not arbitrary & charting it's historical unit price against gold, dollars & other fiats is the true reflection of it's worth

MtGox being useless

Your request (#XXXX) has been received, and will be reviewed by our support staff.

Our help desk is experiencing unusually high traffic currently. We regret to inform you that you will experience some delays (currently 48-72 hrs) in us getting back to you.

We sincerely apologize for the inconvenience and are working on all fronts to improve our response times.

To review the status of the request and add additional comments, follow the link below:
http://support.mtgox.com/tickets/XXXX


XXXXXXX XXXXXXXX, Aug-09 00:21 (JST):
hi

I sent GBP XXXX credit to your UK bank account from mine, requested
yesterday, it should not have taken more than 2 hrs, please let me know if
you have received it as yet, btw Britcoin.com can do this in under 2 hrs &
they're a tiny exchange in comparison

many thanks

ID: XXXXXXXXXXX

OK still haven't had a response from MtGox but they have auto-advised that the funds have just now been credited & exchanged from GBP in to $ at an excellent exchange rate $1.63675 which is better than XE.com are showing $1.620 & better still than XE-Trade's transfer rate, so good that's good even if they did take a couple of days - I'll edit to say why this was when they let me know...

its just a bubble popping, we'll all be allright

I think the issue is you wiring bank funds to Mt. Gox, which is historically useless.  I was almost hoping the next post would be that you lost your money, so it would be one more reason to steer people away from them.

why the fuck would u write something so ridiculous only 2 possibilities:
1) you are retarded and believe naked sex news or something like that
2) you have something to gain

http://www.bitcoinmoney.com/post/8412471372/fincen-prepaid-access-final-rule

...and I'd appreciate it if your posts became more content less insult

Well thanks BCM for your almost kind wishes, it wasn't exactly a bank wire but an free Internet banking transfer within the UK - these normally are great & take under 2 hours to show (ie at Britcoin.co.uk), MtGox couldn't locate my funds for over 2 days even having the date sent, amount, my full name, my MtGox ref number on it, they just faffed around while their offer of reduced fees lapsed & the BTC price rose, how hard is it to do a simple search - unbelievable! Anyway eventually the funds were credited at a good exchange rate & after more prodding they replied:

As for the reason why it took two days, it was because we had to process this manually for the time being according to the Barclay's system. However, we are making every effort to get the funds deposited faster into the Mt.Gox accounts.

We also have plans on making the UK withdrawals possible to facilitate our UK customers and will let our users know once it becomes available. Thank you for your patience and continued support.

Today they sent me a code for a free MtGox Yubi key which I've now ordered, it can only be used with their service just as the regular Yubikey can not be used there, but still useful & a nice gesture, plus what with their rescue of the Polish exchange & clients they do seem to be improving generally so lets give them a chance

You got GoXXXed!!!

I believe this was already debunked in a previous thread

Why do you want parity?  It's largely irrelevant - PPP (purchasing power parity) sees to that.