Bitcoin Forum

Economy => Marketplace => Topic started by: the founder on August 10, 2011, 08:05:12 PM



Title: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 10, 2011, 08:05:12 PM
The worlds first bitcoin bank has opened to the general public. The ewallet has been called one of the best services to the bitcoin community as it solves virtually all of the problems that hindered bitcoins from becoming more mainstream in commerce.

Its a game changer in the bitcoin community.

It allows people to access their coins anywhere, hence now its not limited to the machine you installed the physical client on, as it can be accessed by your smartphone (turning your phone into your debit card).

The biggest story however is the land rush. Many view that flexcoin ids are helpful for future e-commerce with bitcoins. So people are grabbing the best IDs possible, and the demand has been high for a free flexcoin id.

Before flexcoin people had to send bitcoins to addresses like 17KxFiNCwDXdxDxUMhWb7RLj7REnSJ1M8P after flexcoin an id such as coffeeshop would do the transfer. This simplifies commerce greatly, it allow is an instant transfer as compared to the traditional next block wait which could be between 10 minutes and 3 days depending if it was a small transaction with no miner fee.

Another advantage is that flexcoin pays discounts to account holders. This allows many to use it as a saving account for bitcoins.

Flexcoin solves the micro-payment problem. Since the 1990′s people wanted to be able to accept micro payments, but the credit card fees were way to high (it would cost 30 cents to accept 10 cents). Flexcoin solves that problem as flexcoin to flexcoin transfers are free (as well as instant) allowing for a newspaper to charge something tiny for an article, and be paid instantly and profitability.

Back to the ids however. The demand is so high that its similar to a domain registration circa 1995. A flood of users have been looking for generic terms such as coffeeshop if their coffeshop wishes to accept bitcoins.

The company has been aware of the recent news regarding bitcoins and security, they spent large amounts of time and money on security. Though no service on earth is 100% safe, their service has been audited by professionals and hackers alike and has been given a clean bill of health and security. Another factor in trust since flexcoin is backed by Yooter InterActive Marketing a company that has fortune 500 firms as clients and has been in business for a decade, it allows for a level of trust not seen in the bitcoin community since its inception.

Regardless the site has allowed for registrations for the general public. Many are rushing to get the valuable flexcoin IDs now.

The company stresses that it is not a true financial bank as legally defined, but it is a bitcoin bank as only bitcoins are accepted.

http://www.flexcoin.com

Contact US / TOS / Privacy Policy all located on drop down under FAQ.

Signup / Register / Activate all link to https secure

Enjoy .. Feedback... etc.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: casascius on August 10, 2011, 08:09:18 PM
What kind of "cold storage" policy do you plan to implement?  In other words, what percentage of your bitcoin holdings do you anticipate keeping offline so it can't be hacked?

It wouldn't be terrible for someone, upon attempting a large withdrawal, to have to be told: "Your withdrawal will be performed within <timeframe> because it's over <limit> BTC and requires manual review and/or withdrawal from cold storage."  It would actually be a confidence booster.

And, huge pretty please..... do you have any plans to allow deposits from someone entering a Bitcoin private key?


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 10, 2011, 08:16:16 PM
What kind of "cold storage" policy do you plan to implement?  In other words, what percentage of your bitcoin holdings do you anticipate keeping offline so it can't be hacked?

We do have plans for offsite / offline storage... but we need to measure use and average trading vs just parking coins there to give a solid percentage.  Currently it's a very small base.. so we can answer this question better in a few weeks.

We are always looking into ways to better the service (IE: private keys),  but honestly on launch day we're still measuring traffic, and taking feedback (such as offline storage, keys, etc).



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: nmat on August 10, 2011, 08:18:39 PM
Thanks for the service.

1- Who is that happy girl at the homepage?
2- What is your business model? (i.e. how do you make money)


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 10, 2011, 08:20:55 PM
Thanks for the service.

1- Who is that happy girl at the homepage?
2- What is your business model? (i.e. how do you make money)

On the FAQ drop down the fee schedule which explains the model.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Littleshop on August 10, 2011, 08:25:04 PM
Do you offer merchant services for online shopping carts? 

Do you have any existing bitcoins (not customer coins) to back up customer bitcoins?


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Smalleyster on August 10, 2011, 08:28:04 PM
Got mine!

"smalleyster"


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 10, 2011, 08:28:04 PM
Do you offer merchant services for online shopping carts?  

Do you have any existing bitcoins (not customer coins) to back up customer bitcoins?

Merchant services (IE: an API) is being developed..

The TOS states that though we're exploring insurance options,  it's virtually impossible to get someone to insure them...  any ideas on that and i'll take them.



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Vod on August 10, 2011, 08:28:52 PM
The worlds first bitcoin bank has opened to the general public.

You are far from the first.  There is mybitcoin, mtgox, Tradehill, CampBX, VirtEx, etc.

Any service that stores coins is a bank.  


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: nmat on August 10, 2011, 08:29:11 PM
On the FAQ drop down the fee schedule which explains the model.

You're right. Sorry, I didn't see it.

Well, it looks great :) Good luck!


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Smalleyster on August 10, 2011, 08:29:42 PM
...  it's virtually impossible to get someone to insure them...  any ideas on that and i'll take them.

Lloyds of London? They'll try almost anything.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: casascius on August 10, 2011, 08:31:27 PM
What kind of "cold storage" policy do you plan to implement?  In other words, what percentage of your bitcoin holdings do you anticipate keeping offline so it can't be hacked?

We do have plans for offsite / offline storage... but we need to measure use and average trading vs just parking coins there to give a solid percentage.  Currently it's a very small base.. so we can answer this question better in a few weeks.

We are always looking into ways to better the service (IE: private keys),  but honestly on launch day we're still measuring traffic, and taking feedback (such as offline storage, keys, etc).



I am sure you are plenty aware that security is a major concern of this entire community, and that a "we'll-do-that-later" security is frowned upon (except by prospective hackers).  I would recommend you publish some sort of policy right away.  Even a policy that includes "we'll have no cold storage whenever our holdings are less than X BTC, as they are right now" is better than no policy.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 10, 2011, 08:32:20 PM
There is a security document published,  FAQ / Drop Down / Security.



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Littleshop on August 10, 2011, 08:37:37 PM
Do you offer merchant services for online shopping carts?  

Do you have any existing bitcoins (not customer coins) to back up customer bitcoins?

Merchant services (IE: an API) is being developed..

The TOS states that though we're exploring insurance options,  it's virtually impossible to get someone to insure them...  any ideas on that and i'll take them.



Simple idea.  Prove you have X (hopefully X > 1000) bitcoins available under your control that are not customer coins.  Keep those coins in 'cold storage'.  Have an operating corporate charter and presence in a country that is not designed to hide responsibility and identity.  This still insulates you in case of most accidental liability but allows the community to know you have some investment and who you really are.   


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Smalleyster on August 10, 2011, 08:38:05 PM
There is a security document published,  FAQ / Drop Down / Security.

Mildly iritating that I had to logout to get to the faq.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 10, 2011, 08:40:31 PM
Mildly iritating that I had to logout to get to the faq.

It doesn't log you out for that,  After 5 minutes it kicks you out automatically for security purposes if no activity within the browser.




Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Smalleyster on August 10, 2011, 08:43:54 PM
I'm virtually blind and have to zoom in 3-5 times to see your text. Now the options on the FAQ overlap.

It appears the only way to take funds out is by BTC and it costs a minimum of .01btc or .5% whichever is greater?


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 10, 2011, 08:49:25 PM
I'm virtually blind and have to zoom in 3-5 times to see your text. Now the options on the FAQ overlap.

It appears the only way to take funds out is by BTC and it costs a minimum of .01btc or .5% whichever is greater?

Can you send me a screenshot, we can't duplicate the zooming error.

Correct,  it's the only way we can pay you discount payments.   We do not charge for bitcoin to flexcoin, flexcoin to flexcoin,  only flexcoin to bitcoin.

However the miner fees ARE INCLUDED in that charge .01 btc or .5%....  70% what's left after paying the miner are reimbursed back to all the account holders.





Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Smalleyster on August 10, 2011, 08:53:48 PM
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/3253/rlmp.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/577/rlmp.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: kjj on August 10, 2011, 08:56:26 PM
For a while I had been thinking that you were running a mining pool too.  But when you say "miner fees", you mean transaction fees that flexcoin pays out when sending to non-flexcoin accounts.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: nighteyes on August 10, 2011, 08:59:40 PM
Seems like its targeting people who want to give up the security of bitcoins for a piece of paper....even worse, since they give up their confidentiality to boot.

No open records, so we dont know if this is just a scam ponzi scheme. If Im to trust the statemt of not being a scam, point me to a thieves who say upfront that they are con artists. The very fact that its being said is suspicious....I mean who said it was a ponzi scheme?

Then there is that issue of being insured that was brought up. Whats to stop someone from just taking the bitcoins in your office? I dont want to hear about the solution of not being able to withdraw money(cold storage or the empty storage devices purporting to hold bitcoins).


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 10, 2011, 08:59:55 PM
For a while I had been thinking that you were running a mining pool too.  But when you say "miner fees", you mean transaction fees that flexcoin pays out when sending to non-flexcoin accounts.

The answer is yes.

However you're right about the mining thing,  initially we were looking at any way possible to pay the people that deposit their bitcoins at flexcoin and we thought mining would be profitable enough to pay people regular payments,  but the threshold went up so high that it doesn't make sense for us to do that at this time.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the joint on August 10, 2011, 09:06:06 PM
Account created.  I think "BitcoinBusiness" is as good of an ID registration as there could be :)  Anybody wanna buy it from me for 100BTC yet?


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 10, 2011, 09:07:33 PM
Account created.  I think "BitcoinBusiness" is as good of an ID registration as there could be :)  Anybody wanna buy it from me for 100BTC yet?

Someone registered  "casino" 



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the joint on August 10, 2011, 09:08:51 PM
Account created.  I think "BitcoinBusiness" is as good of an ID registration as there could be :)  Anybody wanna buy it from me for 100BTC yet?

Someone registered  "casino" 



Meh.  Sounds like a gamble to me.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 10, 2011, 09:12:21 PM
Account created.  I think "BitcoinBusiness" is as good of an ID registration as there could be :)  Anybody wanna buy it from me for 100BTC yet?

Someone registered  "casino" 



Meh.  Sounds like a gamble to me.

LOL!   Someone just got " webdesign "



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: KBundy on August 10, 2011, 09:29:04 PM
Greetings all,

First off, love the site, very clean and simple to use, looks great as well.

I know someone was talking about miner fees earlier in this thread, but I don't fully understand what that means, can you please explain it to me?

-KBundy


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: nmat on August 10, 2011, 09:32:06 PM
Greetings all,

First off, love the site, very clean and simple to use, looks great as well.

I know someone was talking about miner fees earlier in this thread, but I don't fully understand what that means, can you please explain it to me?

-KBundy


You pay a fee to withdraw bitcoins from flexcoin. 70% of that fee is redistributed among the users. 30% is used to pay for the transfer fees (aka miner fees) and to keep the service running.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the joint on August 10, 2011, 09:32:36 PM
Account created.  I think "BitcoinBusiness" is as good of an ID registration as there could be :)  Anybody wanna buy it from me for 100BTC yet?

Someone registered  "casino" 



Meh.  Sounds like a gamble to me.

LOL!   Someone just got " webdesign "




Fine.  You know what?  Fine.  2nd account registered.  BitcoinBank.  Suck it.  You wanna buy it from me?  ;D


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: sgravina on August 10, 2011, 09:47:15 PM

What is that computer doing to make this young lady so excited?

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/3253/rlmp.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/577/rlmp.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: MadSweeney on August 10, 2011, 10:29:56 PM
Are you connected with Lycos Mail? Your website uses the same image as www.mail.lycos.com.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: geek-trader on August 10, 2011, 10:31:31 PM

What is that computer doing to make this young lady so excited?

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/3253/rlmp.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/577/rlmp.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


RomComs have taught me that the cute boy in her class asked her out on a date.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 10, 2011, 10:31:55 PM
Are you connected with Lycos Mail? Your website uses the same image as www.mail.lycos.com.

Stock images... lycos I am assuming bought the same images we did.



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: geek-trader on August 10, 2011, 10:32:50 PM
Do you have an iPhone app, or a way I can pay with my iPhone without having to type in the address?  Like scan a q-code?


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: nmat on August 10, 2011, 10:36:06 PM
Are you connected with Lycos Mail? Your website uses the same image as www.mail.lycos.com.

And the same as treasurewebdesigns.com (http://www.treasurewebdesigns.com/), websitesuccess.co.uk (http://www.websitesuccess.co.uk), enlightenedwealthywomen.com (http://enlightenedwealthywomen.com), mccsystems.co.uk (http://www.mccsystems.co.uk/business_solutions.html) among many others.

A more personal look would be appealing, but I guess that comes with time...


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 10, 2011, 10:41:20 PM
Do you have an iPhone app, or a way I can pay with my iPhone without having to type in the address?  Like scan a q-code?

it's completely tested with mobile :)  do this.. bookmark the https://bank.flexcoin.com as a homepage icon...  you'll see the flexcoin icon there!

it's easier than a q-code if sending to id.. literally just send to flexcoin ID president from your iphone,  i'll send your coin back if you want to test it.

transfers are instant and works over mobile devices (tested on Android and iPhones) ...






Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: geek-trader on August 10, 2011, 11:05:43 PM
Do you have an iPhone app, or a way I can pay with my iPhone without having to type in the address?  Like scan a q-code?

it's completely tested with mobile :)  do this.. bookmark the https://bank.flexcoin.com as a homepage icon...  you'll see the flexcoin icon there!

it's easier than a q-code if sending to id.. literally just send to flexcoin ID president from your iphone,  i'll send your coin back if you want to test it.

transfers are instant and works over mobile devices (tested on Android and iPhones) ...


Ok, I see your idea here, you hope every merchant will have a flexcoin ID.  And it also benefits the consumer, because the transaction is free for them if the merchant has a flexcoin ID.

That's cool, I can see that.

So, then I just have two issues, one minor, one not.

* Not minor:  15 confirms before I can spend them?  6 is not good enough for you? For me to test your app as you suggested, I'd have to wait 3 HOURS, as I just sent some BTC to my Flexcoin account.

* Minor:  I can't access the FAQ or documentation from my account page.  The links are not there.

I think this can be a great service.  I realize you are in the early stages.  I wish you luck.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: AtlasONo on August 10, 2011, 11:18:02 PM
one lower case letter,
one upper case letter,
one special character,
and one digit

Oh come on even Pf8ng8B9myPKJw5pTEJt isn't vaild? REALLY!

yea then my nice new randomly generated password is too long. Let me use a passphrase

REoǶWB…F4@@ is just too secure

\/ exactly \/


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: geek-trader on August 10, 2011, 11:22:25 PM
one lower case letter,
one upper case letter,
one special character,
and one digit

Oh come on even Pf8ng8B9myPKJw5pTEJt isn't vaild? REALLY!


http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/password_strength.png


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 10, 2011, 11:42:34 PM
Do you have an iPhone app, or a way I can pay with my iPhone without having to type in the address?  Like scan a q-code?

it's completely tested with mobile :)  do this.. bookmark the https://bank.flexcoin.com as a homepage icon...  you'll see the flexcoin icon there!

it's easier than a q-code if sending to id.. literally just send to flexcoin ID president from your iphone,  i'll send your coin back if you want to test it.

transfers are instant and works over mobile devices (tested on Android and iPhones) ...


Ok, I see your idea here, you hope every merchant will have a flexcoin ID.  And it also benefits the consumer, because the transaction is free for them if the merchant has a flexcoin ID.

That's cool, I can see that.

So, then I just have two issues, one minor, one not.

* Not minor:  15 confirms before I can spend them?  6 is not good enough for you? For me to test your app as you suggested, I'd have to wait 3 HOURS, as I just sent some BTC to my Flexcoin account.

* Minor:  I can't access the FAQ or documentation from my account page.  The links are not there.

I think this can be a great service.  I realize you are in the early stages.  I wish you luck.


Minor : I will have the links put up,  programming guys want it as separate as possible from the WWW version of the site but I see your point and I will have that addressed.

Not Minor : I will agree with you that perhaps 15 was overboard,  we just learn from others experience,  and evidently what happened to mybitcoin was the lack of confirmations,  granted we might have went overboard but it was a security feature in our opinion,  what would be a reasonable number that won't allow for a backdoor like that?



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: shotgun on August 10, 2011, 11:51:19 PM
Do you have an iPhone app, or a way I can pay with my iPhone without having to type in the address?  Like scan a q-code?

it's completely tested with mobile :)  do this.. bookmark the https://bank.flexcoin.com as a homepage icon...  you'll see the flexcoin icon there!

it's easier than a q-code if sending to id.. literally just send to flexcoin ID president from your iphone,  i'll send your coin back if you want to test it.

transfers are instant and works over mobile devices (tested on Android and iPhones) ...


Ok, I see your idea here, you hope every merchant will have a flexcoin ID.  And it also benefits the consumer, because the transaction is free for them if the merchant has a flexcoin ID.

That's cool, I can see that.

So, then I just have two issues, one minor, one not.

* Not minor:  15 confirms before I can spend them?  6 is not good enough for you? For me to test your app as you suggested, I'd have to wait 3 HOURS, as I just sent some BTC to my Flexcoin account.

* Minor:  I can't access the FAQ or documentation from my account page.  The links are not there.

I think this can be a great service.  I realize you are in the early stages.  I wish you luck.


Minor : I will have the links put up,  programming guys want it as separate as possible from the WWW version of the site but I see your point and I will have that addressed.

Not Minor : I will agree with you that perhaps 15 was overboard,  we just learn from others experience,  and evidently what happened to mybitcoin was the lack of confirmations,  granted we might have went overboard but it was a security feature in our opinion,  what would be a reasonable number that won't allow for a backdoor like that?



Minor: just include a link to the FAQ on the account page. you don't have to add the same html and associated code.
Not Minor: please explain in detail to everyone why this is a safe service and why, specifically, it is not going to rip off my bitcoins like mybitcoin did.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: geek-trader on August 10, 2011, 11:52:20 PM

...

Not Minor : I will agree with you that perhaps 15 was overboard,  we just learn from others experience,  and evidently what happened to mybitcoin was the lack of confirmations,  granted we might have went overboard but it was a security feature in our opinion,  what would be a reasonable number that won't allow for a backdoor like that?


I believe the generally accepted value is 6 confirms.  This is what MtGox uses, and this is when a transaction changes from "unconfirmed" to "confirmed" in the client.

MyBitcoin was doing 0, if I remember correctly.

Thanks!


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: randomguy7 on August 10, 2011, 11:55:33 PM
Afaik MyBitcoin simply waited for the next block to be found, but it didn't check if the actual transaction was included in the block.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Smalleyster on August 11, 2011, 12:02:47 AM

Minor : I will have the links put up,  programming guys want it as separate as possible from the WWW version of the site but I see your point and I will have that addressed.

FAQ inside "bank" was my quibble earlier. Thank you for adressing it.

" programming guys want it " be very careful here. Programmers are very smart but have a habit of thinking they know much more than they actually do.

I'll bet not one of them has taken as much as one class in Industrial Engineering or User Interface Theory.

If you are going to succeed in the long run most of your users will be average human beings, not programmers. It will be a delicate balance for you to keep both sides mollified. 8^)


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: fcmatt on August 11, 2011, 12:06:55 AM
well typing in the register information over and over again because the flexcoin id is already taken is highly annoying
and it will only become worse with time.


even better... give me a quick easy to way to test if the id is taken or not.... or let me register and then pick an id so
i can try many times a minute until i find something neat. i would like to think we are not at the point i have to choose
sun1245 and can still get a generic noun.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 11, 2011, 12:15:20 AM
Minor: just include a link to the FAQ on the account page. you don't have to add the same html and associated code.
Not Minor: please explain in detail to everyone why this is a safe service and why, specifically, it is not going to rip off my bitcoins like mybitcoin did.

Done --  links are up on the client going to the WWW version of the site  (all the documentation is a drop down under FAQ)

The second question is fair considering what happened with mybitcoin, it's also the reason we didn't launch was when the bank was ready to go live... because we knew we had a problem due to their epic failure or theft whatever camp you belong in.

Mybitcoin never had revenue model.    They said they "sold advertising"  but that never generates income to any large extent and it was never tied into the wealth or fortune of the bitcoin community.    This smelled bad from the start,  he filed an LLC overseas so no one can touch him.  Never was active in the community.

Flexcoin, LLC is backed by Yooter InterActive Marketing,  a digital advertising agency that services fortune 500 firms based in the United States   Clearly I'm not hiding.  The more transactions you guys make,  the more revenue we generate,  and the higher the payments come back to you (in the form of the 70% discount) and us (our 30% share of the transaction fee).  In other words we're tied to you...  our incentive is to make it as easy as possible for you to transfer bitcoins in and out,  and transfer flexcoin to flexcoin ... because the wider adoption flexcoin has the more revenue we generate.    Our goal is to have at least 1% of the bitcoin community using flexcoin to flexcoin transfers because at that point we believe that it would reach critical mass and everyone would use it to save on transaction costs as well as the bigger factor,  instant transfers (no next block).

We believe it's the best solution to make bitcoins widespread and adopted.  I believe I got it hammered down to allow bitcoins to be used for all, including grandma.

You think we mapped out a whole business model to ruin my name or to change the world?


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 11, 2011, 12:19:10 AM
well typing in the register information over and over again because the flexcoin id is already taken is highly annoying
and it will only become worse with time.


even better... give me a quick easy to way to test if the id is taken or not.... or let me register and then pick an id so
i can try many times a minute until i find something neat. i would like to think we are not at the point i have to choose
sun1245 and can still get a generic noun.

Understood...   that IS on the plate ...  I know the problem because during testing / invite process we ran into the same thing...  fill out the form... hit submit and it says it's taken already.   I suspect that will get done shortly as well considering everyone here at Flexcoin is reading this thread.





Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Shinobi on August 11, 2011, 12:39:32 AM
Calling oneself a bank should not be done whimsically. I hope you have sought compliance with the laws of your jurisdiction. While there may not be laws specific to Bitcoin, there are almost assuredly laws related to banking practices.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Smalleyster on August 11, 2011, 12:44:34 AM
Calling oneself a bank should not be done whimsically. I hope you have sought compliance with the laws of your jurisdiction. While there may not be laws specific to Bitcoin, there are almost assuredly laws related to banking practices.

I wholeheartedly agree with this one. I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that this is *highly* frowned upon by *most* legal jurisdictions that I have done business in.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 11, 2011, 12:46:30 AM
Calling oneself a bank should not be done whimsically. I hope you have sought compliance with the laws of your jurisdiction. While there may not be laws specific to Bitcoin, there are almost assuredly laws related to banking practices.

I wholeheartedly agree with this one. I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that this is *highly* frowned upon by *most* legal jurisdictions that I have done business in.

The second we start accepting USD or any national currency I agree.. but we cleared this with legal 1000 times, as long as we stay within the bitcoin realm we're fine.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Ridi on August 11, 2011, 12:57:41 AM
Do you comply with Know your Customer?  How do you plan to handle issues like eGold and other centralized digital currencies faced with being help accountable for illegal transactions?


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Smalleyster on August 11, 2011, 01:00:50 AM
Calling oneself a bank should not be done whimsically. I hope you have sought compliance with the laws of your jurisdiction. While there may not be laws specific to Bitcoin, there are almost assuredly laws related to banking practices.

I wholeheartedly agree with this one. I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that this is *highly* frowned upon by *most* legal jurisdictions that I have done business in.

The second we start accepting USD or any national currency I agree.. but we cleared this with legal 1000 times, as long as we stay within the bitcoin realm we're fine.

Oh dear, that implies you will never have a USD in or out. 8^(


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Shinobi on August 11, 2011, 01:02:10 AM
So this is just an e-wallet, then?

Calling oneself a bank should not be done whimsically. I hope you have sought compliance with the laws of your jurisdiction. While there may not be laws specific to Bitcoin, there are almost assuredly laws related to banking practices.

I wholeheartedly agree with this one. I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that this is *highly* frowned upon by *most* legal jurisdictions that I have done business in.

The second we start accepting USD or any national currency I agree.. but we cleared this with legal 1000 times, as long as we stay within the bitcoin realm we're fine.

Oh dear, that implies you will never have a USD in or out. 8^(


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: nmat on August 11, 2011, 01:04:41 AM
USDs were never mentioned anywhere. Flexcoin is an easy way to store your bitcoins and to make/receive payments. So yes, it is a sort of e-wallet with added benefits (you can earn some if you keep your bitcoins there)


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Michael_S on August 11, 2011, 01:18:48 AM
Some Questions from my side - first seven "quick questions", and then the most crucial important question at the end:

1.) Will there be an Android App to link to QR scanner, such that I can pay with flexcoins to an outside BTC-Address (like "bitcoin wallet" Android App)?

2.) I do not like that the account is closed after 2 weeks of zero balance. In that case, my flexcoin name would be gone and I would have to open a new account with another name. Very bad idea I would say. Is there at least a protection mechanism, such that I am not allowed to move my balance below 0.00001 Flexcoins or so?

3.) I do not like that 18 month of inactivity leads to closure of the account and loss of all flexcoins. This looks dubious. 18 month can quickly happen, for example if somebody goes to a journey around the world or Himalaya, or a severe disease. And when he comes back, all Flexcoins are gone. I think this period should be extended to 5 years minimum. Could you imagine to extend this period?

4.) Minimum payment of 0.5% or 0.01 BTCs appears a lot. 0.01 BTC = 0.10 USD is already in the order of magnitude of credit card fees, and 0.5% is 50 cent on 100 EUR, which is a lot, too.

5.) Who guarantees me that the terms and conditions do not change against my favour, once I have deposited some BTC funds into the Flexcoin bank? For example increase of fees or shortening of the idle times before the account is closed, etc.?

6.) Are you planning to issue flexcoin credits in the future?

7.) Are you planning to provide interest payments on flexcoin accounts in the future?


8.) You are calling yourself a "bank". Does this mean you are running a fractional reserve system? The informed reader knows that the main characteristic of a "bank" is that it uses a fractional banking system. This means, every bank possesses less cash than the sum of the money of all its bank accounts. This means, if every customer of a bank tried to withdraw the whole cash at the same time (a so called "bank run"), the bank could not cash it out - it could only cash out about 2 to 10% of it. (It sounds crazy, but it is no secret, you can read about this everywhere on the internet, even at the web sites of the central banks.) How about the "flexcoin bank"? Are you going to establish a fractional reserve system of Bitcoins with your bank, too? Technically, this would be no problem, because it is highly unlikely that every customer would withdraw his BTC funds from the flexcoin bank at the same time, so some "overbooking" would be possible. This is exactly how the fractional reserve banking system started to develop in banking history of our world. But of course, such banking system would not be desireable, because it means inflating the currency, it would not be limited to 21 Million any more, because there would be more flexcoins then Bitcoins in circulation.
   So my question is: If the total number of Bitcoins paid into your bank is, say, 1 Million BTCs, will there be exactly 1 Million Flexcoins in existence, or will there be more then 1 Million Flexcoins? I think a big criticism of the current financial currency system is the fractional reserve property, because it can create big problems and eventually does so, sooner or later. So for me it would be absolutely crucial that your bank does NOT implement a fractional banking system, and this would be an absolute Pre-condition before I would use your service, and I guess this is the case for many other informed users, too. So if flexcoin implements a fractional reserve system, Flexcoins are not better than EUROs or USDs in the long term, with all the "diseases" associated to them on the long term.

8.b) If your anwser to quesiton "8.)" is "No, we are NOT going to implement a fractional banking system, there will always be a 1:1 mapping of flexcoins in circulation and Bitcoins deposited in the flexcoin bank", then my question is: How will you prove this to the world? There is a possibility to prove it, as described in the following - will you implement it?
   Description: For example, you can assign each user a secrete ID or secret nick name (and the user can change this, if he wants), i.e. a nick name that only this user knows himself. And then, you publish on your website (open to be read by everybody) every day (or every hour or so) an up-to-date-list of secret nick names and associated deposited funds. The sum of these funds then amounts to the total number of flexcoins in circulation at this point in time. And everybody can check this. Since the nick names (or IDs) are secret, the list is anonymous, and nobody has to disclose his funds. To anonymize it even further, it is possible that a user defines several secrete nicknames and distributes his funds over these nicknames as he wishes. Then all these nick names will be listed in the pubic list, such that it would be even harder to track it. And the user could change these nick names at any time. Note that these nicknames are not to be confused with the flexcoin addresses like "coffeeshop"!!
   Now, the second part relates to the bitcoins. The Flexicoin bank also would have to publish all Bitcoin addresses (public addresses like "1Msio5Diu3t8jdfg..."), and the associated fund of this address at the time of publishing. This way, every internet user could see for himself (by comparison with data from "blockexplorer") if the amount of funds contained by these BTC-addresses is the same as the sum of all flexcoins, or lower than that. Of course, the flexcoin bank could also list "wrong" Bitcoin addresses in this list, i.e. Bitcoin addresses that they do not actually own. However, this would be dangerous, because if the true owner of this Bitcoin address realizes this, the whole thing would become public and everybody would know that flexcoin uses a fake list to hide the fact that it is actually running a fractional reserve system. In this case, the trust into flexcoin would vanish instantly.

Note that this mechanism I just described is the same as the mechanism that the gold platform BullionVault (http://gold.bullionvault.de/#GOLDMICCI) is using to prove that the gold that their customers have bought is really existing physically in the vaults. What is the gold in that case is the Bitcoins in our case. And what is the list of funds in the BullionVault case is the list of flexcoins in our case here.

9.) If you are NOT implementing a fractional reserve system, my advise to you would be that you should not call yourself a "bank". Because many people associate the fractional reserve system with a bank (which is correct, because actually this is the crucial thing that "banking" is all about). And this is quite the OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE BITCOIN SYSTEM NEEDS.

9.b) If you do implement a fractional reserve system (i.e. number of Flexcoins > number of Bitcoins deposited in your Flexcoin bank), I have no more to say, other than: "Without me!", and I think it will not be successful, because the Bitcoin users are better informed than the average people in our world, and Bitcoins is exactly the OPPOSITE of the idea of fractional banking.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Smalleyster on August 11, 2011, 01:22:37 AM
"the account is closed after 2 weeks of zero balance"

Oh well, there goes my account. 8^(


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: error on August 11, 2011, 01:40:06 AM
I was about to sign up, but I decided not to after reading about the following:

* Requiring 15 confirmations on deposits when six is more than sufficient.
* Closing accounts with zero balance after two weeks. There are many scenarios where an account might need to have a zero balance for longer than that. If such a rule is needed at all, it should be at least two years, not two weeks.
* Closing accounts after 18 months of inactivity. There are many scenarios where an account might need to be inactive for longer than that. If such a rule is needed at all, it should be at least ten years, not 18 months.
* MOST IMPORTANT, a minimum fee of 0.01 BTC to send BTC. This is hardly conducive to micropayments, and indeed, it's the biggest thing that's keeping me from signing up. With such a fee, Flexcoin offers me absolutely nothing I can't do myself.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Ridi on August 11, 2011, 01:59:06 AM
* Requiring 15 confirmations on deposits when six is more than sufficient.

I think that one is nitpicking a little bit.  9 more confirmations is just a little bit of extra security.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: foggyb on August 11, 2011, 02:14:45 AM

* Closing accounts with zero balance after two weeks. There are many scenarios where an account might need to have a zero balance for longer than that. If such a rule is needed at all, it should be at least two years, not two weeks.
* Closing accounts after 18 months of inactivity. There are many scenarios where an account might need to be inactive for longer than that. If such a rule is needed at all, it should be at least ten years, not 18 months.


What??? Well, my accounts are probably gone too. That's a silly policy.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: error on August 11, 2011, 02:15:05 AM
* Requiring 15 confirmations on deposits when six is more than sufficient.

I think that one is nitpicking a little bit.  9 more confirmations is just a little bit of extra security.

It's not a little bit extra security. It's a LOT more extra security. It's the difference between sending an armored car and an army.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Ridi on August 11, 2011, 02:34:06 AM
How much extra time do you thing the confirmations take?


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: bitlotto on August 11, 2011, 02:37:20 AM
How much extra time do you thing the confirmations take?
Approx 10 minutes on average for each confirmation. The first one will be the most variable but once it's in the blockchain it counts up as the blocks come in.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Ridi on August 11, 2011, 02:54:53 AM
2.5 hrs isn't a long time for a confirmed digital financial transaction.  If you can afford to send an army, you should send the army.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: nhodges on August 11, 2011, 05:21:09 AM
Question, why has the terminology changed from "interest" to "discount" on the banking interface?


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Wolenber on August 11, 2011, 05:23:57 AM
Question, why has the terminology changed from "interest" to "discount" on the banking interface?
I think (but I'm certainly not the man running Flexcoin, so I can't know for sure) that this simply covers transaction fees, not actually adding to your account. That is, the "discount" will be used to pay fees instead of your credit.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: KBundy on August 11, 2011, 05:37:54 AM
Greetings all,

I propose that instead of charging the fees that you do(.01 or .5%) and then give back the fees to the people, just charge a lesser fee in the first place.  The way I understand it, you are keeping 30% of the fees, and returning 70% to the customer.  How about instead, you charge 30% of the fee you want to charge in the first place, eliminating this extra step, and making it a more fair price for the service, and get more people to join.  Just a suggestion, but it is rather logical.

-KBundy


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: BitcoinBug on August 11, 2011, 06:38:28 AM
Greetings all,

I propose that instead of charging the fees that you do(.01 or .5%) and then give back the fees to the people, just charge a lesser fee in the first place.  The way I understand it, you are keeping 30% of the fees, and returning 70% to the customer.  How about instead, you charge 30% of the fee you want to charge in the first place, eliminating this extra step, and making it a more fair price for the service, and get more people to join.  Just a suggestion, but it is rather logical.

-KBundy

I think he wants to attract "big money", because big money will earn most interest. I wouldn't do it though, because I doubt interest can cover the risk.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: harm on August 11, 2011, 07:48:51 AM
Some Questions from my side - first seven "quick questions", and then the most crucial important question at the end:

1.) Will there be an Android App to link to QR scanner, such that I can pay with flexcoins to an outside BTC-Address (like "bitcoin wallet" Android App)?

2.) I do not like that the account is closed after 2 weeks of zero balance. In that case, my flexcoin name would be gone and I would have to open a new account with another name. Very bad idea I would say. Is there at least a protection mechanism, such that I am not allowed to move my balance below 0.00001 Flexcoins or so?

3.) I do not like that 18 month of inactivity leads to closure of the account and loss of all flexcoins. This looks dubious. 18 month can quickly happen, for example if somebody goes to a journey around the world or Himalaya, or a severe disease. And when he comes back, all Flexcoins are gone. I think this period should be extended to 5 years minimum. Could you imagine to extend this period?

4.) Minimum payment of 0.5% or 0.01 BTCs appears a lot. 0.01 BTC = 0.10 USD is already in the order of magnitude of credit card fees, and 0.5% is 50 cent on 100 EUR, which is a lot, too.

5.) Who guarantees me that the terms and conditions do not change against my favour, once I have deposited some BTC funds into the Flexcoin bank? For example increase of fees or shortening of the idle times before the account is closed, etc.?

6.) Are you planning to issue flexcoin credits in the future?

7.) Are you planning to provide interest payments on flexcoin accounts in the future?


8.) You are calling yourself a "bank". Does this mean you are running a fractional reserve system? The informed reader knows that the main characteristic of a "bank" is that it uses a fractional banking system. This means, every bank possesses less cash than the sum of the money of all its bank accounts. This means, if every customer of a bank tried to withdraw the whole cash at the same time (a so called "bank run"), the bank could not cash it out - it could only cash out about 2 to 10% of it. (It sounds crazy, but it is no secret, you can read about this everywhere on the internet, even at the web sites of the central banks.) How about the "flexcoin bank"? Are you going to establish a fractional reserve system of Bitcoins with your bank, too? Technically, this would be no problem, because it is highly unlikely that every customer would withdraw his BTC funds from the flexcoin bank at the same time, so some "overbooking" would be possible. This is exactly how the fractional reserve banking system started to develop in banking history of our world. But of course, such banking system would not be desireable, because it means inflating the currency, it would not be limited to 21 Million any more, because there would be more flexcoins then Bitcoins in circulation.
   So my question is: If the total number of Bitcoins paid into your bank is, say, 1 Million BTCs, will there be exactly 1 Million Flexcoins in existence, or will there be more then 1 Million Flexcoins? I think a big criticism of the current financial currency system is the fractional reserve property, because it can create big problems and eventually does so, sooner or later. So for me it would be absolutely crucial that your bank does NOT implement a fractional banking system, and this would be an absolute Pre-condition before I would use your service, and I guess this is the case for many other informed users, too. So if flexcoin implements a fractional reserve system, Flexcoins are not better than EUROs or USDs in the long term, with all the "diseases" associated to them on the long term.

8.b) If your anwser to quesiton "8.)" is "No, we are NOT going to implement a fractional banking system, there will always be a 1:1 mapping of flexcoins in circulation and Bitcoins deposited in the flexcoin bank", then my question is: How will you prove this to the world? There is a possibility to prove it, as described in the following - will you implement it?
   Description: For example, you can assign each user a secrete ID or secret nick name (and the user can change this, if he wants), i.e. a nick name that only this user knows himself. And then, you publish on your website (open to be read by everybody) every day (or every hour or so) an up-to-date-list of secret nick names and associated deposited funds. The sum of these funds then amounts to the total number of flexcoins in circulation at this point in time. And everybody can check this. Since the nick names (or IDs) are secret, the list is anonymous, and nobody has to disclose his funds. To anonymize it even further, it is possible that a user defines several secrete nicknames and distributes his funds over these nicknames as he wishes. Then all these nick names will be listed in the pubic list, such that it would be even harder to track it. And the user could change these nick names at any time. Note that these nicknames are not to be confused with the flexcoin addresses like "coffeeshop"!!
   Now, the second part relates to the bitcoins. The Flexicoin bank also would have to publish all Bitcoin addresses (public addresses like "1Msio5Diu3t8jdfg..."), and the associated fund of this address at the time of publishing. This way, every internet user could see for himself (by comparison with data from "blockexplorer") if the amount of funds contained by these BTC-addresses is the same as the sum of all flexcoins, or lower than that. Of course, the flexcoin bank could also list "wrong" Bitcoin addresses in this list, i.e. Bitcoin addresses that they do not actually own. However, this would be dangerous, because if the true owner of this Bitcoin address realizes this, the whole thing would become public and everybody would know that flexcoin uses a fake list to hide the fact that it is actually running a fractional reserve system. In this case, the trust into flexcoin would vanish instantly.

Note that this mechanism I just described is the same as the mechanism that the gold platform BullionVault (http://gold.bullionvault.de/#GOLDMICCI) is using to prove that the gold that their customers have bought is really existing physically in the vaults. What is the gold in that case is the Bitcoins in our case. And what is the list of funds in the BullionVault case is the list of flexcoins in our case here.

9.) If you are NOT implementing a fractional reserve system, my advise to you would be that you should not call yourself a "bank". Because many people associate the fractional reserve system with a bank (which is correct, because actually this is the crucial thing that "banking" is all about). And this is quite the OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE BITCOIN SYSTEM NEEDS.

9.b) If you do implement a fractional reserve system (i.e. number of Flexcoins > number of Bitcoins deposited in your Flexcoin bank), I have no more to say, other than: "Without me!", and I think it will not be successful, because the Bitcoin users are better informed than the average people in our world, and Bitcoins is exactly the OPPOSITE of the idea of fractional banking.



I do totally agree with your points! Not doing fractional reserve banking very important. I like the deflationary bitcoin system, keep it that way, please!
The bitcoin system is a decentralised system - and that, beside the deflationary aspect, is the most important point why there has been put so much value into this.

Bitcoins are at an early stage therefore you can't expect flexcoin to be accepted very soon. Finally Flexcoins are good for micropaiment, but as long as only few shops accept bitcoins it is less likely that flexcoins will succeed quicker. Well, maybe flexcoins speed up the acceptance progress and it is realy worth trying it! But don't market you service as a bank, as in a decentralised system we don't need banks! Stick to the advantages of quick (micro)paiment and address shortening and make paying bitcoins more easily.
And closing a blanc account after two weeks is realy early. We had to put money on there while not knowing whether this system is ever going to be used! Flexcoins do need more time I think...


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: smoothie on August 11, 2011, 08:13:39 AM
I'm sorry but any centralized organization is contradictory to the purposes of decentralization of bitcoin.

Get smart! Hold on to and secure your own bitcoins and STOP relying on ANY service that says "hey we'll store/hold your bitcoins for you".

 ;D


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: tanerlorn on August 11, 2011, 08:57:32 AM
I have a pertinent question. Who the f are you and why should we send you bitcoins? Are ppl really gonna be stupid enough to fall for the mybtc thing all over again?

Seriously the entire point of bitcoin is 100% control over your own money.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 11, 2011, 12:12:09 PM
So this is just an e-wallet, then?


This "just an e-wallet" pays you each month.... take it as you wish.





Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 11, 2011, 12:15:39 PM
Question, why has the terminology changed from "interest" to "discount" on the banking interface?

Accountant had a discussion with the IRS.  If we used the word "interest" we would have to 1099 everyone if they make over $10 USD in payments,  "commission" and we had to 1099 everyone over $600 ,  use the word "discount" and no reporting is required.

It fits the bill regardless, because it IS a discount on your transaction fees,  as the part we collect (after paying the miner) is split 70% back to the account holders and 30% to us and it fixes the reporting and accounting problems.





Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 11, 2011, 12:35:21 PM
Some Questions from my side - first seven "quick questions", and then the most crucial important question at the end:


--------------------
For the record nearly all these are answered on flexcoin,  under the FAQ drop down box.   So I suggest reading that first before posting, but I will of course answer this here.  I am going to answer this below each question
---------------------

1.) Will there be an Android App to link to QR scanner, such that I can pay with flexcoins to an outside BTC-Address (like "bitcoin wallet" Android App)?

-------------------
The site has been tested in all mobile devices (android and IOS)  It works really well via mobile, in fact it appears to the the primary way people access the account,  all IOS individuals can bookmark the https://bank.flexcoin.com site and it will even render a Flexcoin Icon on your iPhone or iPad desktop).  Android users will have to bookmark and then move the bookmark, as direct linking isn't allowed on android, but it is simple to do the bookmark and move to make it a web app.  Transfering from a clumsy QR scanner or just type in flexcoin id coffeshop?  I'll take coffeeshop as it's quicker.
-----------------------------------

2.) I do not like that the account is closed after 2 weeks of zero balance. In that case, my flexcoin name would be gone and I would have to open a new account with another name. Very bad idea I would say. Is there at least a protection mechanism, such that I am not allowed to move my balance below 0.00001 Flexcoins or so?

-----------------------
This was done on purpose to stop cybersquatting....   Our fear is that someone registers 100,000 flexcoin id's  ... puts nothing in them and we find them on ebay selling ID's rather than putting them to work for people that are actually trying to develop a bitcoin business.
-------------------------------------

3.) I do not like that 18 month of inactivity leads to closure of the account and loss of all flexcoins. This looks dubious. 18 month can quickly happen, for example if somebody goes to a journey around the world or Himalaya, or a severe disease. And when he comes back, all Flexcoins are gone. I think this period should be extended to 5 years minimum. Could you imagine to extend this period?

-----------------
Again this is so people don't put in .000001 bitcoin into 1000 accounts,  and then cybersquat and sell the usernames on ebay.   It's not 2 weeks in this case because we felt that people would want to use this as a valid savings account, If they can't move .0000001 BTC from one free flexcoin id to another (a free transfers) every 1.5 years then the account most likely is abandoned.   

-----------------------

4.) Minimum payment of 0.5% or 0.01 BTCs appears a lot. 0.01 BTC = 0.10 USD is already in the order of magnitude of credit card fees, and 0.5% is 50 cent on 100 EUR, which is a lot, too.

----------------
It's free from flexcoin to flexcoin account.  It's free from bitcoin to flexcoin,  the fee only applies from flexcoin to bitcoin...and that fee includes both the MINER fees, our fees and THE BITCOINS that you get back every month.  How else do you expect us to pay for the servers, and the past 1/2 year building the bank?  Everyone wanted us to provide a revenue model and we did.  
--------------------

5.) Who guarantees me that the terms and conditions do not change against my favour, once I have deposited some BTC funds into the Flexcoin bank? For example increase of fees or shortening of the idle times before the account is closed, etc.?

--------------------
Any changes to the TOS are posted, and your notified of the changes, they do not take affect immediately,  they take affect a week after they are posted.  That gives you plenty of time to get out if you think that we're posting something terrible...  

-------------------

6.) Are you planning to issue flexcoin credits in the future?

------------------
no
-----------------

7.) Are you planning to provide interest payments on flexcoin accounts in the future?

---------
We already are,  it's called a discount payment.
-------


8.) You are calling yourself a "bank". Does this mean you are running a fractional reserve system? The informed reader knows that the main characteristic of a "bank" is that it uses a fractional banking system. This means, every bank possesses less cash than the sum of the money of all its bank accounts. This means, if every customer of a bank tried to withdraw the whole cash at the same time (a so called "bank run"), the bank could not cash it out - it could only cash out about 2 to 10% of it. (It sounds crazy, but it is no secret, you can read about this everywhere on the internet, even at the web sites of the central banks.) How about the "flexcoin bank"? Are you going to establish a fractional reserve system of Bitcoins with your bank, too? Technically, this would be no problem, because it is highly unlikely that every customer would withdraw his BTC funds from the flexcoin bank at the same time, so some "overbooking" would be possible. This is exactly how the fractional reserve banking system started to develop in banking history of our world. But of course, such banking system would not be desireable, because it means inflating the currency, it would not be limited to 21 Million any more, because there would be more flexcoins then Bitcoins in circulation.
   So my question is: If the total number of Bitcoins paid into your bank is, say, 1 Million BTCs, will there be exactly 1 Million Flexcoins in existence, or will there be more then 1 Million Flexcoins? I think a big criticism of the current financial currency system is the fractional reserve property, because it can create big problems and eventually does so, sooner or later. So for me it would be absolutely crucial that your bank does NOT implement a fractional banking system, and this would be an absolute Pre-condition before I would use your service, and I guess this is the case for many other informed users, too. So if flexcoin implements a fractional reserve system, Flexcoins are not better than EUROs or USDs in the long term, with all the "diseases" associated to them on the long term.

---------------------
The answer is NO...  there is no such thing as fractional reserve banking at flexcoin.  period.
--------------------

8.b) If your anwser to quesiton "8.)" is "No, we are NOT going to implement a fractional banking system, there will always be a 1:1 mapping of flexcoins in circulation and Bitcoins deposited in the flexcoin bank", then my question is: How will you prove this to the world? There is a possibility to prove it, as described in the following - will you implement it?
   Description: For example, you can assign each user a secrete ID or secret nick name (and the user can change this, if he wants), i.e. a nick name that only this user knows himself. And then, you publish on your website (open to be read by everybody) every day (or every hour or so) an up-to-date-list of secret nick names and associated deposited funds. The sum of these funds then amounts to the total number of flexcoins in circulation at this point in time. And everybody can check this. Since the nick names (or IDs) are secret, the list is anonymous, and nobody has to disclose his funds. To anonymize it even further, it is possible that a user defines several secrete nicknames and distributes his funds over these nicknames as he wishes. Then all these nick names will be listed in the pubic list, such that it would be even harder to track it. And the user could change these nick names at any time. Note that these nicknames are not to be confused with the flexcoin addresses like "coffeeshop"!!
   Now, the second part relates to the bitcoins. The Flexicoin bank also would have to publish all Bitcoin addresses (public addresses like "1Msio5Diu3t8jdfg..."), and the associated fund of this address at the time of publishing. This way, every internet user could see for himself (by comparison with data from "blockexplorer") if the amount of funds contained by these BTC-addresses is the same as the sum of all flexcoins, or lower than that. Of course, the flexcoin bank could also list "wrong" Bitcoin addresses in this list, i.e. Bitcoin addresses that they do not actually own. However, this would be dangerous, because if the true owner of this Bitcoin address realizes this, the whole thing would become public and everybody would know that flexcoin uses a fake list to hide the fact that it is actually running a fractional reserve system. In this case, the trust into flexcoin would vanish instantly.

Note that this mechanism I just described is the same as the mechanism that the gold platform BullionVault (http://gold.bullionvault.de/#GOLDMICCI) is using to prove that the gold that their customers have bought is really existing physically in the vaults. What is the gold in that case is the Bitcoins in our case. And what is the list of funds in the BullionVault case is the list of flexcoins in our case here.

--------------------
It doesn't work that way currently,  i'll run this by the programmers but I think what you described would mean shutting down flexcoin and building a whole new site.. which would completely break everything we did over the past 1/2 year.
---------------------

9.) If you are NOT implementing a fractional reserve system, my advise to you would be that you should not call yourself a "bank". Because many people associate the fractional reserve system with a bank (which is correct, because actually this is the crucial thing that "banking" is all about). And this is quite the OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE BITCOIN SYSTEM NEEDS.

---------------------
Bank technically means storage,  and that's what people are doing, storing and using bitcoins / flexcoins.    We qualify it secondarly by paying regular payments to clients.  No such thing as fractional reserve at flexcoin.
---------------------

9.b) If you do implement a fractional reserve system (i.e. number of Flexcoins > number of Bitcoins deposited in your Flexcoin bank), I have no more to say, other than: "Without me!", and I think it will not be successful, because the Bitcoin users are better informed than the average people in our world, and Bitcoins is exactly the OPPOSITE of the idea of fractional banking.

-----------------
Then it's good that we don't do that.   I hope to see you get a flexcoin id.
-------------------



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: defxor on August 11, 2011, 12:47:10 PM
We do have plans for offsite / offline storage...

First, I think there is way too much negative feedback in this thread. "Don't use it if you don't like it" applies, and any and all serious businesses that help grow the Bitcoin economy are to be cheered. In the decentralized reputation economy trust is something you earn and FlexCoin do seem to want to operate that way. Kudos.

To my question: While you state on the website that you operate under US law, will you have non-US offsite storage? The US readily seize domains with content that is fully legal in their local jurisdictions and I consider it a significant possibility that we will see servers in the US hosting Bitcoin wallets be seized as well at one point in time. Being a non-US resident I have to judge that as a risk.



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 11, 2011, 12:55:51 PM
We do have plans for offsite / offline storage...

First, I think there is way too much negative feedback in this thread. "Don't use it if you don't like it" applies, and any and all serious businesses that help grow the Bitcoin economy are to be cheered. In the decentralized reputation economy trust is something you earn and FlexCoin do seem to want to operate that way. Kudos.

To my question: While you state on the website that you operate under US law, will you have non-US offsite storage? The US readily seize domains with content that is fully legal in their local jurisdictions and I consider it a significant possibility that we will see servers in the US hosting Bitcoin wallets be seized as well at one point in time. Being a non-US resident I have to judge that as a risk.




We thought about this 1000000 times...  We choose to operate in the United States because that's where we live.  If the US government wants to shut down US companies that are hiring US citizens then shame on them.

If they shut down us they most likely will be shutting down CampBX and every other US based bitcoin service.    The likely hood of them shutting us down is so tiny that it's mostly FUD, considering we do not deal in US dollars at all, and have zero plans to.   You know that a criminal entity would not use a service like flexcoin which clearly states it would work with authorities,  they most likely would setup something in TOR and do it that way....  

I am NOT stating what you are saying is FUD..  I'm just stating that in my opinion no one is going to shut us down as we cannot transmit money.. IE: we don't accept US dollars or any national currency.   This topic bugs me the most because I strongly believe we are innovating and shouldn't be punished (as well as every other US based company) for innovation.





Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: nmat on August 11, 2011, 01:56:08 PM
I like that you are trying to control the ID grabbing, but maybe you are stretching it a little with the deadlines. Instead of 1.5 years, why not make it 3 or 4 with a minimum amount deposited (such as 0.01 BTC for example). And please add to the FAQ that you will constantly notify the client before closing the account.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 11, 2011, 02:10:28 PM
And please add to the FAQ that you will constantly notify the client before closing the account.

That's a good idea... 



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: flyswatta on August 11, 2011, 06:10:47 PM
* Closing accounts with zero balance after two weeks. There are many scenarios where an account might need to have a zero balance for longer than that. If such a rule is needed at all, it should be at least two years, not two weeks.
* Closing accounts after 18 months of inactivity. There are many scenarios where an account might need to be inactive for longer than that. If such a rule is needed at all, it should be at least ten years, not 18 months.

YAY! no more cybersquatting.  If want to get 5000 flexcoin id's and sit on them so you can extort flexcoin ids from people, you have to tie up some BTC.  Sounds fair to me, in fact it should be more than .01

18 months is plenty of time.  Maybe they should offer a 'parking service' where you pay a fee for an account to be inactive more than 18 months.  That way you don't just park 5000 BTC in there and collect interest on it and flexcoin never gets any $ from transaction fees.  You should have to pay for that. 


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: partyp on August 11, 2011, 06:26:17 PM
And please add to the FAQ that you will constantly notify the client before closing the account.

That's a good idea... 



+1 here. I'm much more comfortable with the two weeks and the 18 months policy as long as I am notified in advance that my account is about to be deleted if I don't do something.

I could definitely see myself not touching a saving account for over 1.5 years.

Btw, great work flexcoin and thank you for answering everyone's questions here. That is part of the reason I decided to give flexcoin a try. Just please don't pull a 'mybitcoin' on me. :)


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: vengeance on August 11, 2011, 06:44:58 PM
I keep getting 'your session is either invalid or has expired' when i try register??


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Ridi on August 11, 2011, 07:03:06 PM

If they shut down us they most likely will be shutting down CampBX and every other US based bitcoin service.    The likely hood of them shutting us down is so tiny that it's mostly FUD, considering we do not deal in US dollars at all, and have zero plans to.   You know that a criminal entity would not use a service like flexcoin which clearly states it would work with authorities,  they most likely would setup something in TOR and do it that way....  

I know you weren't particularly replying to my question earlier about being held accountable for money laundering and illegal transactions, but this made clear your perspective on the matter.  I think I need to make it clear that there are precedents for you to consider.

Think about eGold for a minute.  People would buy eGold to launder their money through the centralized service.  The difference in your situation is that people have to buy bitcoin, then put it in FlexCoin to launder their money.  I fully expect that a judge given the case to dictate that you fall under 'know your customer' laws.  Granted you may operate without trouble for quite some time, until one person fucks up and gets caught laundering money through your service.

It's not just a matter of the gov' being opposed to bitcoin.  There is a legitimate criminal element to be considered.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 11, 2011, 07:12:01 PM
The TOS is updated:


-----------------------
Account Inactivity: Flexcoin, LLC reserves the right to close accounts that have had no activity for a period of 1.5 years (18 months). If an account has had no transactions associated with it over the course of 18 months, it will be considered dormant. Flexcoin, LLC reserves the right to collect the bitcoins in any such account and label them as fees, which will in turn make the above section on discount payments applicable to any such bitcoins. Discount payments DO NOT QUALIFY as transactions for the purpose of this section. An active account must have at least one deposit, withdrawal, or transfer to another Flexcoin ID over the course of a rolling 18 month period to be considered active.  You will be notified at least 72 hours prior to the account being shut down via the e-mail address registered with the account.

Zero-Balance Inactivity: Flexcoin, LLC reserves the right to close any account that has a zero balance and is inactive for a duration of two (2) weeks.  This includes accounts that have not been activated via the e-mail activation process. You will be notified at least 72 hours prior to the account being shut down via the e-mail address registered with the account.
------------------------

I think I need to stress to you guys that ANY activity,  such as adding to your account (free), transferring from flexcoin to flexcoin account (free),  anything done to your account counts that moves bitcoins or flexcoins counts as a transaction....  


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 11, 2011, 07:18:17 PM
Think about eGold for a minute.  People would buy eGold to launder their money through the centralized service.  The difference in your situation is that people have to buy bitcoin, then put it in FlexCoin to launder their money.  I fully expect that a judge given the case to dictate that you fall under 'know your customer' laws.  Granted you may operate without trouble for quite some time, until one person fucks up and gets caught laundering money through your service.

Well how do we solve that?  we would have to know where these bitcoins came from?  What is asked is physically impossible,  we can't reasonably be expected track down where a bitcoin came from? Because we would have to physically track each coin from it's inception and then on top of that find out who owned that coin from it's "birth"  .

I want to point out in your example the point where they bought bitcoins (where they CANNOT do that on flexcoin) is where they laundered the money.

Criminals most likely would setup a TOR server and do garbage though that... 





Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: timmey on August 11, 2011, 07:19:34 PM
WHO registered porn, sex and xxx before i had a chance? :D


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: KBundy on August 11, 2011, 07:20:04 PM
Hello again,

The idea to attract "big money" is on the whole, a good thing.  It shows that people are still willing to take the substantial risk of loss on investment to convert to bitcoin, and this ballsiness is important if bitcoin is to succeed.

That being said, the way I understand the fee/discount system is that it's stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.  People wishing to transfer small amounts out of their flexcoin accounts are going to have to pay a minimum fee, making the withdrawal of  micro-payments impractical for the little guys.

To be fair, I really like the site, and what it's about, the thing is that me, the average user, is being turned off by the fees being unevenly weighted.

EG: Say I want to withdraw just 1BTC from my account, the minimum I'd have to pay is .01BTC (1%)  <- this is a lot.  These fees are then given to those who have a ton of  BTC just sitting in their accounts as "discounts", hence, stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.  Something fundamentally wrong here, but easily corrected by charging a fair flat rate.

Like I said before, instead of charging a fee and returning 70% of those fees as discounts, (a large part going to the BTC wealthy,) simply charge 30% of the fee you're trying to charge in the first place.

EG: 0.003BTC or 0.15% on all withdrawals.

-KBundy


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Smalleyster on August 11, 2011, 07:24:26 PM
Like I said before, instead of charging a fee and returning 70% of those fees as discounts, (a large part going to the BTC wealthy,) simply charge 30% of the fee you're trying to charge in the first place.

EG: 0.003BTC or 0.15% on all withdrawals.

+1


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 11, 2011, 07:25:31 PM
Hello again,

The idea to attract "big money" is on the whole, a good thing.  It shows that people are still willing to take the substantial risk of loss on investment to convert to bitcoin, and this ballsiness is important if bitcoin is to succeed.

That being said, the way I understand the fee/discount system is that it's stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.  People wishing to transfer small amounts out of their flexcoin accounts are going to have to pay a minimum fee, making the withdrawal of  micro-payments impractical for the little guys.

To be fair, I really like the site, and what it's about, the thing is that me, the average user, is being turned off by the fees being unevenly weighted.

EG: Say I want to withdraw just 1BTC from my account, the minimum I'd have to pay is .01BTC (1%)  <- this is a lot.  These fees are then given to those who have a ton of  BTC just sitting in their accounts as "discounts", hence, stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.  Something fundamentally wrong here, but easily corrected by charging a fair flat rate.

Like I said before, instead of charging a fee and returning 70% of those fees as discounts, (a large part going to the BTC wealthy,) simply charge 30% of the fee you're trying to charge in the first place.

EG: 0.003BTC or 0.15% on all withdrawals.

-KBundy

Hi Kbundy,

You realize it's free to transfer flexcoin to flexcoin ...  tell the person you want to transfer that .0000001 to his flexcoin address.



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: nmat on August 11, 2011, 07:31:58 PM
That being said, the way I understand the fee/discount system is that it's stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.

When you have money on the bank, you will earn more money from interest if you have more money on your account. Here happens the same. The fees are there to encourage people to use flexcoin for payments.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: shotgun on August 11, 2011, 08:38:19 PM
I am trying to move BTC from Flexcoin to another address. My balance is X and it keeps saying, when I try to transfer the full amount of X that I do not have enough btc to do the transfer. WTF is this SHIT? If there is a fee cost to transfer you need to tell the user how much they can move without having to guess and play the subtraction game.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: shotgun on August 11, 2011, 08:44:58 PM
That being said, the way I understand the fee/discount system is that it's stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.

When you have money on the bank, you will earn more money from interest if you have more money on your account. Here happens the same. The fees are there to encourage people to use flexcoin for payments.

Sounds more like the Flexcoin guys just want to monopolize the transaction system so that they get a % of the BTCs in their system even though they are basically providing nothing useful. Online wallets are pointless. If you can't run the client on your computer you need to wake up and get your head out of the sand - Flexcoin, Mybitcoin, Instawallet, etc ----> they're all here to siphon *just a bit* of the creme off top.

You realize it's free to transfer flexcoin to flexcoin ...  tell the person you want to transfer that .0000001 to his flexcoin address.

Exactly - keep the money in YOUR system for free as an incentive to not be taxed for the transfer. This whole flexcoin idea is a nice profit game for you isn't it. It's pretty clear you're just in it for the % gain from everyone else's mining efforts.

Reminds me of:

Code:
MICHAEL
It's pretty brilliant. What it does is where there's a bank transaction, and the interests are computed in the thousands a day in fractions of a cent, which it usually rounds off. What this does is it takes those remainders and puts it into your account.

PETER
This sounds familiar.

MICHAEL
Yeah. They did this in Superman III.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 11, 2011, 08:46:45 PM
I am trying to move BTC from Flexcoin to another address. My balance is X and it keeps saying, when I try to transfer the full amount of X that I do not have enough btc to do the transfer. WTF is this SHIT? If there is a fee cost to transfer you need to tell the user how much they can move without having to guess and play the subtraction game.

Good point... we can have that displayed.



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Michael_S on August 11, 2011, 08:47:29 PM
Hello FlexCoun Founder,

thanks for your efforts in this forum and for answering my questions.

A few more things:

[...]
1.) Will there be an Android App to link to QR scanner, such that I can pay with flexcoins to an outside BTC-Address (like "bitcoin wallet" Android App)?
-------------------
The site has been tested in all mobile devices (android and IOS)  It works really well via mobile, in fact it appears to the the primary way people access the account,  all IOS individuals can bookmark the https://bank.flexcoin.com site [...]  Transfering from a clumsy QR scanner or just type in flexcoin id coffeshop?  I'll take coffeeshop as it's quicker.
-----------------------------------
So the answer is that there is no Android app but just your web site that I can use on my Android phone. What I would like is to integrate the payment function into an app and to be able to pay from the FlexCoin universe to the Bitcoin Universe (not only inside the flexcoin universe), and all this with good usability that only an app can offer - a website cannot offer this and cannot integrate a QR scanner like e.g. the app "bitcoin wallet". You have to be open to payments outside the Flexcoin universe (and facilitate them by simple user interface) from the beginning, otherwise your service will not get the "critical mass".


2.) I do not like that the account is closed after 2 weeks of zero balance. [...]
-----------------------
This was done on purpose to stop cybersquatting.... [...]
-------------------------------------

3.) I do not like that 18 month of inactivity leads to closure of the account and loss of all flexcoins. [...]
-----------------
Again this is so people don't put in .000001 bitcoin into 1000 accounts,  and then cybersquat and sell the usernames on ebay [...]
-----------------------
I understand this. But I think there are much better ways to do this, methods that are more "graceful" to the customer. Also an email notification 72 hours before closure is definitely not enough, because I myself often have periods of several days without email access, for many reasons, including: loss of phone/crash of PC/holidays in the caribics/ failure of my email provider's IT infrastructure/false positive of my email provider's spam filter/stress in private life/... to name only a few.
Better ways:
  • After the 18 month period, and after having informed the customer SEVERAL times at least SIX WEEKS before the closure (note that 6 weeks is short compared to the 18 month period), the account is still not closed immediately, but a special fee is imposed, such that each day 1% of the funds will be debited from the account. This way, the account is not closed AT ONCE, but GRACEFULLY. According to the exponential function, after one year, the funds on such an account will decrease to 0.99^365 = 0.25 = 2.5% of its original value. Only if the value afterwards falls below e.g. 0.01 BTC, the account will finally be closed.
    This way, if the account owner misses to re-activate his account in time and is late by a few days, the consequences for him are not immediately catastrophic, but he has just lost a few percent of his funds, not all at once. This is what I mean with "graceful degradation", which is much more customer friendly and would still serve the purpose that you explained.
  • Concerning the Two-Weeks-Zero-Funds rule, I consider this rule completely unnecessary, because someone could deposite 0.01 BTC and could still offer the name on ebay. This rule will hence likely hit the innocent users. Proposal: Either abandon this rule, or implement a mechanism that enables the user to configure a "minimum funds" parameter in his personal settings, such that the FlexCoin system will disallows any outgoing payment if it results in a balance below that threshold.

8.) You are calling yourself a "bank". Does this mean you are running a fractional reserve system? [...]
---------------------
The answer is NO...  there is no such thing as fractional reserve banking at flexcoin.  period.
--------------------

8.b) If your anwser to quesiton "8.)" is "No, we are NOT going to implement a fractional banking system, there will always be a 1:1 mapping of flexcoins in circulation and Bitcoins deposited in the flexcoin bank", then my question is: How will you prove this to the world? There is a possibility to prove it, as described in the following - will you implement it?
   Description: For example, you can assign each user a secrete ID or secret nick name (and the user can change this, if he wants), i.e. a nick name that only this user knows himself. And then, you publish on your website (open to be read by everybody) every day (or every hour or so) an up-to-date-list of secret nick names and associated deposited funds. The sum of these funds then amounts to the total number of flexcoins in circulation at this point in time. And everybody can check this. Since the nick names (or IDs) are secret, the list is anonymous, and nobody has to disclose his funds. To anonymize it even further, it is possible that a user defines several secrete nicknames and distributes his funds over these nicknames as he wishes. Then all these nick names will be listed in the pubic list, such that it would be even harder to track it. And the user could change these nick names at any time. Note that these nicknames are not to be confused with the flexcoin addresses like "coffeeshop"!!
   Now, the second part relates to the bitcoins. The Flexicoin bank also would have to publish all Bitcoin addresses (public addresses like "1Msio5Diu3t8jdfg..."), and the associated fund of this address at the time of publishing. This way, every internet user could see for himself (by comparison with data from "blockexplorer") if the amount of funds contained by these BTC-addresses is the same as the sum of all flexcoins, or lower than that. Of course, the flexcoin bank could also list "wrong" Bitcoin addresses in this list, i.e. Bitcoin addresses that they do not actually own. However, this would be dangerous, because if the true owner of this Bitcoin address realizes this, the whole thing would become public and everybody would know that flexcoin uses a fake list to hide the fact that it is actually running a fractional reserve system. In this case, the trust into flexcoin would vanish instantly.

Note that this mechanism I just described is the same as the mechanism that the gold platform BullionVault (http://gold.bullionvault.de/#GOLDMICCI) is using to prove that the gold that their customers have bought is really existing physically in the vaults. What is the gold in that case is the Bitcoins in our case. And what is the list of funds in the BullionVault case is the list of flexcoins in our case here.

--------------------
It doesn't work that way currently,  i'll run this by the programmers but I think what you described would mean shutting down flexcoin and building a whole new site.. which would completely break everything we did over the past 1/2 year.
---------------------
I think you misunderstood my proposal. What I explained does not at all mean that you have to change anything about your current system or even build a new site. It just means you have to add some extra feature. The extra feature mainly can be considered an independent piece of software running on your server. This piece of software just needs as input the current list of BTC-adresses that belong to FlexCoin's bitcoin wallet. And it needs as further input the list of FlexCoin funds with its associated secrete nick names. This is an extremely simple exchange of data bases, you could organise this exchange by simple comma separated ASCII files. Then this software builds from this the table and places this list (again , comma separated ASCII file) for download or display at your website - that's all. Please see how BullionVault.com have done it if you want to know how.

AGAIN: Note that it is absolutely crucial that you provide prove that you are not running a fractional banking system. Just saying you don't doesn't mean anything, only the naive will believe you. Don't get me wrong, I do not say you have bad intentions. But I do not know who you are, so I posses a sound amount of skepticism. You must prove that you are trustworthy on this matter, and the technical means exist for providing this prove, the barriers are not that high at all. If you will not provide this prove in mid-term, there is only one conclusion for me, namely that you are not telling the truth (because otherwise you would provide the prove).
   TODAY, when you say you are not going to run a fractional banking system, you MIGHT say this in good intentions. But as time goes by, you will be tempted to increase the amount of FlexCoins over the amount of Bitcoins deposited in your bank. First a little bit, and then more and more so. This is just natural, this is how the Gold Smiths have done it in banking history, and I do not need to be a prophet to predict that you are going to do the same. If you say you won't do that, you must prove it, and the means for proving it are there and really not that difficult to implement.

I don't expect you to have this SW implemented today or next week, but you should really have this on your roadmap of new SW features for your FlexCoin server.

9.b) If you do implement a fractional reserve system (i.e. number of Flexcoins > number of Bitcoins deposited in your Flexcoin bank), I have no more to say, other than: "Without me!", and I think it will not be successful, because the Bitcoin users are better informed than the average people in our world, and Bitcoins is exactly the OPPOSITE of the idea of fractional banking.

-----------------
Then it's good that we don't do that.   I hope to see you get a flexcoin id.
-------------------
Me being healthily skeptical by nature, I have to say: If you provide the prove (see above) I am very likely to make use of your service!! If not, no way!

Think about it! If you really mean what you say about NOT having the intention of implementing a fractional banking system, you can make a VERY big deal of advertisement and establishment a big deal of trust by implementing the "BullionVault"-like mechanisms.

If you feel that you still do not quite understand how this should work, even after browsing along the web site of BullionVault, do not hesitate to ask me (also private msg).


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 11, 2011, 08:51:05 PM
Sounds more like the Flexcoin guys just want to monopolize the transaction system so that they get a % of the BTCs in their system even though they are basically providing nothing useful. Online wallets are pointless. If you can't run the client on your computer you need to wake up and get your head out of the sand - Flexcoin, Mybitcoin, Instawallet, etc ----> they're all here to siphon *just a bit* of the creme off top.

If you don't want to use any service that charges a fee like tradehill, mtgox, flexcoin, campbx or any other bitcoin service then no one is forcing you to....  regardless you had a valid point regarding the balance displayed and that's being addressed.




Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 11, 2011, 08:54:04 PM
AGAIN: Note that it is absolutely crucial that you provide prove that you are not running a fractional banking system.

Blockexplorer would provide the proof if they are being wired out...  we'll try to figure a way to display that the figures match 1:1 bitcoins to flexcoins...  but honestly we never even considered this as a question, much less something we had to build.   







Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: kjj on August 11, 2011, 08:54:27 PM
Like I said before, instead of charging a fee and returning 70% of those fees as discounts, (a large part going to the BTC wealthy,) simply charge 30% of the fee you're trying to charge in the first place.

EG: 0.003BTC or 0.15% on all withdrawals.
+1

You pay a transaction fee of X BTC to send coins out.  Flexcoin includes a transaction fee of Y BTC in the transfer.  X is easy to calculate from the transfer amount, because it is set by Flexcoin policy using a simple formula: X=max(0.01,amount*0.005).  Y is not easy to calculate in advance, because of the way the bitcoin client works.  But you don't care, because you don't pay Y directly, you pay X.

Next, Flexcoin calculates Z, which is the sum of all the cash out fees paid by users (X), minus the sum of all their paid network transaction fees paid by Flexcoin (Y).  Z is their operating profit for whatever accounting period they use.  They then distribute 70% of Z back to depositors as profit sharing (their lawyer makes them call it a "discount" so they don't have to file paperwork with the IRS), and they keep 30% of Z as their net profit.

Is that clearer?


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: kjj on August 11, 2011, 09:02:39 PM
AGAIN: Note that it is absolutely crucial that you provide prove that you are not running a fractional banking system.

Blockexplorer would provide the proof if they are being wired out...  we'll try to figure a way to display that the figures match 1:1 bitcoins to flexcoins...  but honestly we never even considered this as a question, much less something we had to build.   

I think that in his idea, you would display a nickname (or several) for each account holder along with their balance (or portion of their balance allocated to that nickname).  That way, everyone could look at the list and make sure their name was on it, that their balance was correct, and that the sum for accounts was the same as the sum of the addresses (shown on block explorer).  You wouldn't be able to go fractional by leaving some names off the list to balance things out because you wouldn't know which people are going to be looking for their own information.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: shotgun on August 11, 2011, 09:13:02 PM
Sounds more like the Flexcoin guys just want to monopolize the transaction system so that they get a % of the BTCs in their system even though they are basically providing nothing useful. Online wallets are pointless. If you can't run the client on your computer you need to wake up and get your head out of the sand - Flexcoin, Mybitcoin, Instawallet, etc ----> they're all here to siphon *just a bit* of the creme off top.

If you don't want to use any service that charges a fee like tradehill, mtgox, flexcoin, campbx or any other bitcoin service then no one is forcing you to....  regardless you had a valid point regarding the balance displayed and that's being addressed.




Forgive the anger of my previous post - I've been thinking about mybitcoin too much today. Anyway, there is one difference that I still can't figure out here - mtgox, tradehill, etc provide a service to get USD (and other currencies) into an account so you can move BTC<->USD.

  • What exactly am I getting from the fee that Flexcoin is charging
  • How do I know what the income incentive is to point my mining rig payments to Flexcoin? This isn't mentioned anywhere on the site that I can see.

I understand the solutions you're describing on the site - regarding address and payment flexibility/ease - but isn't that more of a "keep the money at flexcoin" vs creating a scalable and community-wide useful system similar to DNS? Basically what you're describing is a BTC DNS system that resolves easy to remember names like "coffee shop" to e55bbc849e5d9ac825a5a69942af1ad2 (or similarly hard to deal with). But it's nothing more than a remake of Paypal.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the joint on August 11, 2011, 09:21:52 PM
Sounds more like the Flexcoin guys just want to monopolize the transaction system so that they get a % of the BTCs in their system even though they are basically providing nothing useful. Online wallets are pointless. If you can't run the client on your computer you need to wake up and get your head out of the sand - Flexcoin, Mybitcoin, Instawallet, etc ----> they're all here to siphon *just a bit* of the creme off top.

If you don't want to use any service that charges a fee like tradehill, mtgox, flexcoin, campbx or any other bitcoin service then no one is forcing you to....  regardless you had a valid point regarding the balance displayed and that's being addressed.




With all due respect, I have made 2 accounts with you, and am very reluctant to deposit any BTC for many of the concerns listed here (e.g. proof of non-fractional reserves, no current implementation or proof of offline storage -- by the way, at least 95% should be stored offline -- the cater-to-the-rich interest system, etc.).  Comparing your site to tradehill/mt.gox/campbx is unjustified.  It's like making the argument "Bob likes pizza, Mike likes pizza, therefore bob is mike" (in the context that they both like pizza).  Yes, they all implement fees, But with TradeHill and Mt.Gox, I have been able to make 200% profit from my original investment in as little as 1 month.  How long would it take me to make 30 BTC from an original investment of, say, 10 BTC, using only Flexcoin?

I am not trying to hound you, even though after some of my more positive posts earlier in this thread it may now appear that I have jumped on a bandwagon of negativity and scrutiny.  But prima facie evidence suggests that not only have peoples' scam/loss worries increased exponentially since Mt. Gox, MyBitcoin, etc., but the number of scammers have increased exponentially as well, even during the past few weeks.

With reference to the interest problem, I think that a system that caters to the POOR would help your business long term.  So, for example (I haven't given this a lot of immediate thought), take into account the total number of BTC in you system, maybe average both the mean and median of total BTC in your system, have a set fee % rate, and then have all transaction fees from accounts below that average pay out to those above the average, and have all transaction fees from accounts above the average pay out those below it.  So...imaginary 11 account data set...

BTC = {1, 2, 5, 10, 15, 25, 50, 100, 1000, 5000, 10000}
Mean =1620.8
Median = 25
1625.8/2 = 822.9
So, with the set fee, accounts 1, 2, 5, 10, 15, 25, 50, and 100 would all pay fee interest to the accounts with 1000, 5000, and 10,000.  In contrast, those with 1000, 5000, and 10,000 BTC would pay fees to the other 8 lower accounts below the 822.9 BTC threshold.  This would take into account the early adopter problem and the presumed fact that, like American class system, the top 1-5% of the Bitcoin population probably owns 95-99% of the Bitcoins (maybe a little less, I obviously am not sure).  Then, you can skim your little bit off the top.



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: nmat on August 11, 2011, 09:29:04 PM
But with TradeHill and Mt.Gox, I have been able to make 200% profit from my original investment in as little as 1 month.  How long would it take me to make 30 BTC from an original investment of, say, 10 BTC, using only Flexcoin?

That's like comparing a bank deposit with gambling. You earned 200%, but it was risky. Investments with lower risks provide lower interests.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the joint on August 11, 2011, 09:33:50 PM
But with TradeHill and Mt.Gox, I have been able to make 200% profit from my original investment in as little as 1 month.  How long would it take me to make 30 BTC from an original investment of, say, 10 BTC, using only Flexcoin?

That's like comparing a bank deposit with gambling. You earned 200%, but it was risky. Investments with lower risks provide lower interests.

Well, first of all, it wasn't that risky  ;D  Quite easy I thought it was.  I'm a day trader so that minimizes risk.  And, Tradehill and Mt. Gox have shown their faces.  I like that.

Second of all, that was my point.  It's not fair to compare the two, which is exactly what my post was about.  He made the comparison between the two, throwing Flexcoin in the middle of the same sentence as being comparable to Mt. Gox and TradeHill in that they all charge a fee.  I said what I said because it's not a fair comparison.  I can profit significantly on TH and Mt. Gox but cannot do the same with FlexCoin.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 11, 2011, 09:33:56 PM
How long would it take me to make 30 BTC from an original investment of, say, 10 BTC, using only Flexcoin?

That depends on how often people transfer out and flexcoin collects the transaction fee... theoretically you could make that in a month (when discount payments are sent) if the adoption rate was high with high bitcoin valued holders.  Because the transaction fees would be substantial, as would the discount payment sent to you....  it could also be 1000 years if the adoption rate is terrible.....   it completely depends on how well flexcoin does overall.

I will answer the rest of the questions later tonight...  I need to get home.



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 11, 2011, 10:03:40 PM
Second of all, that was my point.  It's not fair to compare the two, which is exactly what my post was about.  He made the comparison between the two, throwing Flexcoin in the middle of the same sentence as being comparable to Mt. Gox and TradeHill in that they all charge a fee.  I said what I said because it's not a fair comparison.  I can profit significantly on TH and Mt. Gox but cannot do the same with FlexCoin.

They charge triple the fees we do  (they charge in both directions, and even more than triple if you count what has to go to dwolla) .. so it's VERY fair to throw them in there in the same sentence.   That's just my opinion.





Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Michael_S on August 11, 2011, 10:06:25 PM
I'm sorry but any centralized organization is contradictory to the purposes of decentralization of bitcoin.

Get smart! Hold on to and secure your own bitcoins and STOP relying on ANY service that says "hey we'll store/hold your bitcoins for you".

 ;D

Yes, that's why I have written two documents, see my signature, to show the way how to make your Bitcoins REALLY secure!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/62124734/Vision-of-a-Bitcoin-Client-Linux-Distribution-v01 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/62124734/Vision-of-a-Bitcoin-Client-Linux-Distribution-v01)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/61649663/Bitcoin-Safe-Usage-v05 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/61649663/Bitcoin-Safe-Usage-v05)

Anyway, I think FlexCoin provides some advantages, but I would never put my complete funds there, even if I were 100% sure of their good intentions, because:

  • Do I know if they make proper backups of their Bitcoin wallets?
  • Do I know that not one of their employees is crazy one day and embezzles all of FlexCoin's BTC savings?

But the main question for me is indeed: Will they provide ongoing proof that they do not bring more FlexCoins into circulation than Bitcoins deposited in their "bank"? In other words: Will they continuously prove that they do not run fractional reserve system (like BullionVault proves that their gold bullions match the funds of their clients)? If they don't, I won't trust them a millimeter!


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Michael_S on August 11, 2011, 10:26:53 PM
AGAIN: Note that it is absolutely crucial that you provide prove that you are not running a fractional banking system.

Blockexplorer would provide the proof if they are being wired out...  we'll try to figure a way to display that the figures match 1:1 bitcoins to flexcoins...  but honestly we never even considered this as a question, much less something we had to build.    

I think that in his idea, you would display a nickname (or several) for each account holder along with their balance (or portion of their balance allocated to that nickname).  That way, everyone could look at the list and make sure their name was on it, that their balance was correct, and that the sum for accounts was the same as the sum of the addresses (shown on block explorer).  You wouldn't be able to go fractional by leaving some names off the list to balance things out because you wouldn't know which people are going to be looking for their own information.

Thank you kjj for putting it in your own words (I am not a native speaker...) and bringing it to the point so concisely, that's exactly what I wanted to say!

Note: BullionVault.com (http://gold.bullionvault.de/#GOLDMICCI) is a gold dealer where you can buy fractions of gold bullions that are located in vaults in Zurich/Switzerland, London or NYC (so you are owner of physical gold). They are using exactly the same principle to prove that the gold really exists and is under control of bullionvault, i.e. that they are not running a fractional reserve system. This definitely helps making them trustworthy, it is a very intelligently thought out mechanism. They are a big gold dealer administering roughly 0.01% of all gold that exists worldwide, so they did not do this just for fun, but because it really makes sense.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: nmat on August 11, 2011, 10:33:54 PM
I don't what you guys are thinking but I do not want by balance publicly displayed. I am sure any merchant that uses flexcoin agrees with me.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: kjj on August 11, 2011, 11:01:41 PM
I don't what you guys are thinking but I do not want by balance publicly displayed. I am sure any merchant that uses flexcoin agrees with me.

It would be your balance, but either a random token (or a nickname of your own choice) instead of your account name.  That way everyone could verify their own, but no one would be able to figure out any of the others (unless they wanted to pick an obvious nickname so that they could demonstrate that they have what they say they have too).


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: crackers8199 on August 11, 2011, 11:21:19 PM
first, let me say that i'm one of the people on the flexcoin development team.  i've been following along and letting roger take care of answering everyone's questions, but since these two almost directly relate to me as one of the developers (and as such an employee as well), i wanted to give my thoughts...

  • Do I know if they make proper backups of their Bitcoin wallets?

i can tell you that we do.  we have spent the better part of the last three months working on this, trying to hammer out every detail...it's why we took so long to launch it full-time to begin with.  we wanted to do our best to make sure EVERYONE was protected.  if we wanted to do it half-assed, we would have launched weeks ago.

of course, without looking at our backup system you can't know for sure (other than taking my word for it), but the same is true with any other wallet or exchange.  i hope we can earn everyone's trust as time goes on - you'll see we're not trying to scam anyone here.  we are providing what we feel is a very valuable service and we hope people will adopt it on a larger scale.

Quote
  • Do I know that not one of their employees is crazy one day and embezzles all of FlexCoin's BTC savings?
again, i personally can tell you that we're not nuts.  i have worked with the people involved on this project every day in some capacity for the past four years.  but i guess without taking my word for it, you can't.  

then again - using the same premise as the latter part of my answer above: how do you know that wouldn't or couldn't also happen at any other wallet service or exchange?

in the end (like i said before) it's all about trust.  i understand there have been some great security issues lately with some exchanges and wallets...but that's precisely the reason why we took a long time to build this in the first place.  we wanted to do our best to make sure it was safe and secure for everyone involved - both the users and ourselves...and we're going to continue to work on it and improve it as time goes on as well.  some of the ideas you guys have proposed here we're already working on implementing.

in the end it boils down to this: f you don't trust us enough right now, then don't use our service - i wouldn't blame you, as i certainly wouldn't put my money somewhere that i didn't trust.  however, we'll do our best and work hard to earn your trust over time - and i hope you'll at least give us a chance to do that.  


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Ridi on August 11, 2011, 11:33:35 PM
Think about eGold for a minute.  People would buy eGold to launder their money through the centralized service.  The difference in your situation is that people have to buy bitcoin, then put it in FlexCoin to launder their money.  I fully expect that a judge given the case to dictate that you fall under 'know your customer' laws.  Granted you may operate without trouble for quite some time, until one person fucks up and gets caught laundering money through your service.

Well how do we solve that?  we would have to know where these bitcoins came from?  What is asked is physically impossible,  we can't reasonably be expected track down where a bitcoin came from? Because we would have to physically track each coin from it's inception and then on top of that find out who owned that coin from it's "birth"

Know YOUR CUSTOMER.  Banks don't have to know every person that has held a dollar bill.  Only the person who's putting the money in the bank.  Make sure to collect personal information for every account. It's that simple.

Edit- The whole idea is to make sure that only the people doing the illegal stuff are held liable for their crimes.

Quote
I want to point out in your example the point where they bought bitcoins (where they CANNOT do that on flexcoin) is where they laundered the money.

Criminals most likely would setup a TOR server and do garbage though that...  

This is not how money laundering works.  So I'll try to detail this for you

My Money is used to buy bitcoins, this is tracable, and if the government was watching me they could tell that I put money in a dwolla/paxum account, and then could tell that I spent money from that account to buy bitcoin. (The people I bought bitcoin from don't know who I am, but the dwolla account was directly tied to my bank, so the government does.)

That bitcoin is then sent into you service where it sits in a general fund.  Values are assigned to accounts but not identities. (I don't know if you collect identification information.  That is why I asked what you do to for these cases on the first page of this thread.)  So now money can move from anonymous account to anonymous account, but the difference from the bitcoin protocol doing this and Flexcoin doing this is that Flexcoin is a centralized service.  The decentralization makes the User and Trader solely liable for their crimes.  As a third party involved, if you cannot freeze an account on order of the U.S. Court (because you have no idea whose account is whose, and no idea how many accounts they may have) then you are liable for the criminal actions done through your service.

Even if somebody did manage to launder their money through the BTC trading, which is not unlikely, I could only see it making money laundering charges easier to bring upon organizations further down the line.

Further more I also asked about fraud.  If an anonymous person frauds somebody using your service and you provide no way for the government to subpoena the identity of the fraudster from your records, you are likely to become liable for the damages.

Granted this is only if the government takes an interest in BTC, which with the Silk Road active, that is becoming more and more likely.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 12, 2011, 12:09:07 AM
Know YOUR CUSTOMER.  Banks don't have to know every person that has held a dollar bill.  Only the person who's putting the money in the bank.  Make sure to collect personal information for every account. It's that simple.

This is the part that I don't understand,  you want me to collect social security numbers for people that are depositing bitcoins?   My whole problem with this is the following:

A)  the bitcoins can be sent though http://bitcoinlaundry.com/ ... or just forwarded around 400 times,  the point is that there is no real valid way without allocating hundreds of man hours to try to trace where a bitcoin went.  Rendering "know your customers" much more difficult as compared to dealing with US dollars.

B) you want me to collect information on my clients, such as their social security number?   I could imagine that working well  "just upload your bitcoins to flexcoin after you supply your social security number, occupation, age, etc.."  You realize that is impossible?   You might provide that information,  but most (if not anyone else) would not provide that.

Look I am not completely dismissing what you are saying,  I am just saying that it's virtually impossible to trace who is using what...  how can I verify (even if I required a social security number)  that the number is real in the first place?  Or the address?  The only solution is to run a credit check on each person...   that is a hell of alot of expense for a bitcoin storage facility.







Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: kjj on August 12, 2011, 12:17:25 AM
As a third party involved, if you cannot freeze an account on order of the U.S. Court (because you have no idea whose account is whose, and no idea how many accounts they may have) then you are liable for the criminal actions done through your service.

???


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: evoorhees on August 12, 2011, 12:20:19 AM
 Make sure to collect personal information for every account. It's that simple.


I'd rather not provide my Slave Number to use the service.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 12, 2011, 12:22:22 AM
Make sure to collect personal information for every account. It's that simple.


I'd rather not provide my Slave Number to use the service.

I think you're not alone,  considering it's not even dollars.. it's bitcoins...   I sort of don't get the idea of collecting information like that for bitcoins...  if we were accepting dollars... and we were an exchange like mtgox or tradehill (do they require social security numbers?) then maybe... but for bitcoins and only bitcoins .. with no dollars ..





Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Michael_S on August 12, 2011, 12:43:29 AM
I don't what you guys are thinking but I do not want by balance publicly displayed. I am sure any merchant that uses flexcoin agrees with me.

I am afraid you did not understand my point correctly. I have pointed out that balances will only be published anonymously! And to have even more camouflage, a balance can be split into SEVERAL ANNONNYMOUS items. But maybe it is clearer with an example:

Concrete Example: How Flexcoin can prove that they do not run a fractional system:

Imagine that FlexCoin has total funds of 100 BTC and a total of 3 users as of 12.08.2011, 00:00 GMT:
  • User 1:
    Balance = 30.00 BTC
    public FlexCoin address = "coffeshop"
    Secret IDs (defined by user 1 himself, only visible in his login area):
    ID1 = bitbyte --> 30.00 BTC
  • User 2:
    Balance = 60.00 BTC
    public FlexCoin address = "michael"
    Secret IDs (defined by user 2 himself, only visible in his login area):
    ID 1 = bitfan --> 52.41 BTC
    ID 2 = newyork --> 7.59 BTC
  • User 3:
    Balance = 10.00 BTC
    public FlexCoin address = "pizzaservice"
    Secret IDs (defined by user 3 himself, only visible in his login area):
    ID 1 = freak0815 --> 7.10 BTC
    ID 2 = MrXYZ --> 2.90 BTC

Now here is how FlexCoin's published lists will look like (e.g. as downloadable comma separated ASCII text file, and listed in HTML on its website):

List 1: List of Secret IDs with balances:
Code:
Secret IDs      Balance
-----------------------
bitbyte         30.00
bitfan          52.41
freak0815        7.10
MrXYZ            2.90
newyork          7.59
-----------------------
TOTAL          100.00

List 2: List of Bitcoin addresses of FlexCoin's Bitcoin wallet
(of course Bitcoin address must be shown completely, so it can be verified in blockexplorer by everybody):
Code:
Bitcoin Address                               Balance
-----------------------------------------------------
1gDh45GdsGglAw2qe4HaHst...                    14.25
15GdDggkaL57wjhAfsd6dzh...                     5.13
1Ldfge64mdaYsFrZ68sffgh...                     1.75
1gshgsJdrh546EHs6eDGhfd...                    14.64
1AAhEh22bSH4wD2tSHlFtfh...                     7.41
1dKZtTROvBCMf54GgUGgShd...                     3.58
1jfFhgKSBfqfmNnXUu9M4Zi...                    11.25
1fHed34Zr6r7KFsgHJKr1DF...                     9.47
1JeC5sM8MgHD8oTKqSni6fZ...                    12.49
1QwKLLoTdWRTnsu9gEoPbiS...                    20.03
-----------------------------------------------------
TOTAL                                        100.00

If FlexCoin runs a fractional system (i.e. if sum of all Flexcoins is greater than sum of all Bitcoins possessed by Flexcoin), they would have to hide this by one of the following means:
  • In List 1, omit one or several secret IDs (danger: If a user checks the list and does not find his ID)
  • In List 2, also list such Bitcoin addresses that do not belong to FlexCoin (danger: if a user finds a listed address to be his own private address, and he realizes that FlexCoin would falsely pretend this to be their address)

Practically, especially the 2nd kind of fraud (List 2) might be difficult to detect in reality. So, FlexCoin should make it practical for everybody to check their integrity. This can be easily done in the following way, to make their trustworthiness more apparent to the world:
  • Flexcoin maintains only a small number (e.g. =10, i.e. small enough to be captured by the human eye) of public BTC addresses in their Bitcoin wallet. This is easily possible, they just need to run a slightly modified version of the official bitcoin client software, modified in that it does not generate new addresses automatically. This way it is easier to verify and check by everybody
  • Flexcoin regularly moves their set of operational Bitcoin addresses to new ones, and announces the set of new addresses BEFOREHAND. Suitable interval would be e.g. once every 3 months. Idea: 1 week before the end of the 3 month period, Flexicoin publishes 10 new Bitcoin addresses that will be used starting from next quarter. Then, at the given point in time, they move all their Bitcoins from their 10 old addresses to their 10 new ones.
  • --> Advantage: This way, FlexCoin proves to the world:
    (a) that they are still in control of their Bitcoins (and have not lost their private keys), and
    (b) that the addresses that they list in List 2 above really belongs to them, and not to any random Bitcoin user in the world!

You see, it would be easy for Flexcoin to prove:
  • that they are not running a fractional system, AND
  • that they are under control of all their Bitcoins

At the same time, the anonymity of the users is fully guaranteed, because they are only listed in the public list with their SECRET IDs. Moreover, to make these users even more anonymous, Flexcoin could implement mechanisms that allows each user to define SEVERAL secret IDs, and the user could be allowed to specify HOW he wants to distribute his funds between the different secret IDs (e.g. in percentage, or in absolute numbers or some formulas) Given this fact, AND given the fact that "List 1" (see above) is not updated on a minute or hour basis but only once a day (or even once a week would be sufficient), also an outside user could hardly "back-engineer" which secret ID belongs to which FlexCoin Address. For example, a "curious attacker" could transfer a certain amount of 123.45 BTC to the "coffeshop" address. Then he looks at the published list (List 1 above) and checks which of the secret IDs has 123.45 BTCs more funds than last time. However, unluckily for our "curious friend", he was probably not the only one who has sent some BTCs to "coffeshop" since the last update of "List 1" (which was e.g. 1 week ago) [but our "curious attacker" has lost 123.45 BTC in this example]. Therefore, this sort of "curiosity attack" will not work, i.e. the users account information are kept secret. On top of that, the user can change his Secret IDs any time, and he could even write an automated script (if this is supported by the flexcoin platform) to change his secret IDs according to a given schedule in the future.

Idea for an additional business opportunity for Flexcoin:
Flexcoin could make this "annonymizing feature" a feature for premium users and request an extra fee for this. For example, every user has one secret ID free (of course also for this free secret ID the user must be able to chose the name of this ID by himself, otherwise FlexCoin could map the same ID to several users and thereby hide a fractional system). If a user wants to use more than one secret ID (for an increased degree of "camouflage"), this service could be sold to this user for a certain fee! For an even further degree of camouflage (e.g. the user is able to program a sequence in the future in which the Secrete IDs change, and also the percentages of funds allocated to the different secret IDs could be scheduled by the user).

Hope this was clear now, for both nmat and Flexcoin Funder :-)

As I said, it is not just a fancy proposal that I am making here, it is in fact my EXPECTATION that Flexcoin is implementing this mechanism in the future and puts it on its feature roadmap. I assure that I am not holding any intellectual property rights for any of these ideas - but donations are of course always welcome for the work I have done here :-)
   In my view, implementation of this feature would be a BIG quality certificate for any web service provider that administers Bitcoins for its users, as Flexcoin intends to become one. And given the ambitious plans flexcoin has expressed, I have no doubt that they just have to implement it if they want to be trusted. As a side effect, they would set a new standard of trust!


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Ridi on August 12, 2011, 01:35:13 AM
This is the part that I don't understand,  you want me to collect social security numbers for people that are depositing bitcoins?

I don't want you to do anything in particular.  I'm trying to point out a big loophole in your business plan.


Quote
My whole problem with this is the following:

A)  the bitcoins can be sent though http://bitcoinlaundry.com/ ... or just forwarded around 400 times,  the point is that there is no real valid way without allocating hundreds of man hours to try to trace where a bitcoin went.  Rendering "know your customers" much more difficult as compared to dealing with US dollars.

I can launder my money hundreds of times before putting it in the bank too.  The bank doesn't need to know how I got the money, only that I (John Doe) deposited money ($400) in my account (#555) or my daughter's account (#556).

Everything preceding that and coming after my transaction is the government's job to prove that I did anything illegal.  Unfortunately if my drug dealer has a flex account, and I have a flex account, and you don't know either of us, you're still liable for handling the transaction.  Cash or no, buying drugs with anything is still illegal.  You don't even have to care if we do illegal transactions, again that's the governments job. 

If the FBI calls and says John Doe has been selling drugs and makes his money by trading in flexcoin, we have a subpoena for his account information, you have to be able to provide that information.

Quote
B) you want me to collect information on my clients, such as their social security number?   I could imagine that working well  "just upload your bitcoins to flexcoin after you supply your social security number, occupation, age, etc.."  You realize that is impossible?   You might provide that information,  but most (if not anyone else) would not provide that.

Look I am not completely dismissing what you are saying,  I am just saying that it's virtually impossible to trace who is using what...  how can I verify (even if I required a social security number)  that the number is real in the first place?  Or the address?  The only solution is to run a credit check on each person...   that is a hell of alot of expense for a bitcoin storage facility.

I don't know how you end up doing it.  The reason I asked in the first place was to find out if you'd addressed it at all.  I'm not likely to use a service that is going to end up being shut down for this kind of crap.  Paxum, Dwolla, Paypal, all have to verify their users one way or the other.  There are very specific laws regarding money transfer services.  If your lawyers still insist that they don't apply to digital currency, you should have them look up how those laws were applied to eGold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-gold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-gold)

Read 2008 Indictment and Trial for more information about the case.

and of course the specific wording of the ruling.  "a business can clearly engage in money transmitting without limiting its transactions to cash or currency and would commit a crime if it did so without being licensed."



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: crackers8199 on August 12, 2011, 01:57:35 AM
it seems to me (from reading the wiki you linked to) like the owners of e-gold were MUCH more complicit in the money laundering that was going on than just running a business.

Quote
Additionally, it alleges that while e-gold placed "value limits" on certain accounts suspected of criminal activity, they suggested that the owner open a new account, placing no restrictions on their ability to move funds out of the original account.

not to mention we have the following in our TOS:

Quote
Law Enforcement: Flexcoin, LLC is located in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, United States of America. Flexcoin, LLC will cooperate with any federal and / or state authorities as the law requires.

granted i'm a programmer, not a lawyer...but i'm just saying i don't really see how flexcoin is at all similar to e-gold.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: kjj on August 12, 2011, 02:13:33 AM
I'm not a lawyer either, but I don't think this applies.  See 31 CFR 103.11 (http://www.ffiec.gov/bsa_aml_infobase/pages_manual/regulations/31CFR103.htm)

31 CFR 103.11(uu) giveth, but 31 CFR 103.11(h) taketh away.

If I recall correctly, this is the specific reason that Flexcoin operates with bitcoin only.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Ridi on August 12, 2011, 02:38:04 AM
I'm not a lawyer either, but I don't think this applies.  See 31 CFR 103.11 (http://www.ffiec.gov/bsa_aml_infobase/pages_manual/regulations/31CFR103.htm)

31 CFR 103.11(uu) giveth, but 31 CFR 103.11(h) taketh away.

If I recall correctly, this is the specific reason that Flexcoin operates with bitcoin only.

I'm not a lawyer either, until I see a judge ruling on it, I'm not going to take my chances with FLEX.  (Though I think the specificity of 31 CFR 103.11(h) is a very valid defense.)  Mostly because I think BTC should be a recognized currency.  I think that is what the community is working towards.  That said, I think that we BTC could benefit from a service like this, I don't think taking advantage of the BTC's nature as a loophole is the way to go about it though.

Understandably difficult situation, I'll be watching, but I don't intend on buying.  I'm not trying to rag on FlexCoin.  From everything they are doing, and the way they interact with the community, I expect them to be forging well ahead of the crowd when the fog clears on BTC legitimacy issues.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: KBundy on August 12, 2011, 02:46:05 AM
Hello again,

The idea to attract "big money" is on the whole, a good thing.  It shows that people are still willing to take the substantial risk of loss on investment to convert to bitcoin, and this ballsiness is important if bitcoin is to succeed.

That being said, the way I understand the fee/discount system is that it's stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.  People wishing to transfer small amounts out of their flexcoin accounts are going to have to pay a minimum fee, making the withdrawal of  micro-payments impractical for the little guys.

To be fair, I really like the site, and what it's about, the thing is that me, the average user, is being turned off by the fees being unevenly weighted.

EG: Say I want to withdraw just 1BTC from my account, the minimum I'd have to pay is .01BTC (1%)  <- this is a lot.  These fees are then given to those who have a ton of  BTC just sitting in their accounts as "discounts", hence, stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.  Something fundamentally wrong here, but easily corrected by charging a fair flat rate.

Like I said before, instead of charging a fee and returning 70% of those fees as discounts, (a large part going to the BTC wealthy,) simply charge 30% of the fee you're trying to charge in the first place.

EG: 0.003BTC or 0.15% on all withdrawals.

-KBundy

Hi Kbundy,

You realize it's free to transfer flexcoin to flexcoin ...  tell the person you want to transfer that .0000001 to his flexcoin address.




You realize that in order for that person to convert that .0000001 to USD should they ever desire, they would be the one to pay the fee.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: shotgun on August 12, 2011, 04:10:49 AM
I don't know how you end up doing it.  The reason I asked in the first place was to find out if you'd addressed it at all.  I'm not likely to use a service that is going to end up being shut down for this kind of crap.  Paxum, Dwolla, Paypal, all have to verify their users one way or the other.  There are very specific laws regarding money transfer services. 

You have failed to understand several basics going on here:

  • Flexcoin and how it interacts with BTC is not a money transfer service. It's a BTC transaction service. No USD or other currency is being dealt with so those "laws" you are referring to not only don't apply, they don't even exist for BTC.
  • Dwolla doesn't verify their users - they link your bank account and do not have any control over the validity or legality of the bank account you are linking to.
  • Users of Flexcoin do not have to move USD into their account to transact BTC, ever, at all. Everything is funded via BTC.
  • USD never even has to interact with any BTC use unless you choose to. The perfect example is a 24x7 miner that has generated BTC out of thin air (and electricity). I can fund my Flexcoin account via BTC I've mined and never ever have a money trail or identity trail involved -- the gov (whichever one you are referring to given that BTC and Flexcoin are not linked to any country's economy anyway) has no idea or trace of my BTC generated through the mining process.

So I'm not sure what your user identity tracking high-horse soapbox rant is all about but you need to realize the following:

  • No one is ever going to give their personal information in order to setup accounts for BTC transactions where USD (or other gov backed currency) is not involved.
  • No one wants to be tracked via BTC for various reasons, most of all taxes and the fact that BTC is independent of governments - those gov's can suck it when it comes to BTC as they have no hold/jurisdiction/etc on the BTC economy.
  • Illegal activities are your own business and if you want to engage in said activities it's not the transaction processors liability that comes under question - do you think Bank Of America gets raided every time some drug dealer takes money out of the ATM?


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Ridi on August 12, 2011, 05:04:15 AM

You have failed to understand several basics going on here:
  • Flexcoin and how it interacts with BTC is not a money transfer service. It's a BTC transaction service. No USD or other currency is being dealt with so those "laws" you are referring to not only don't apply, they don't even exist for BTC.

"a business can clearly engage in money transmitting without limiting its transactions to cash or currency and would commit a crime if it did so without being licensed." UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. E-GOLD, LTD

Quote
  • Dwolla doesn't verify their users - they link your bank account and do not have any control over the validity or legality of the bank account you are linking to.

That is a form of verification that can be used.  Paypal allows you to verify your identity the same way.

Quote
  • Users of Flexcoin do not have to move USD into their account to transact BTC, ever, at all. Everything is funded via BTC.
  • USD never even has to interact with any BTC use unless you choose to. The perfect example is a 24x7 miner that has generated BTC out of thin air (and electricity). I can fund my Flexcoin account via BTC I've mined and never ever have a money trail or identity trail involved -- the gov (whichever one you are referring to given that BTC and Flexcoin are not linked to any country's economy anyway) has no idea or trace of my BTC generated through the mining process.

Again "a business can clearly engage in money transmitting without limiting its transactions to cash or currency and would commit a crime if it did so without being licensed." UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. E-GOLD, LTD

(In case this is not going through.  BTC doesn't even need to be a currency.

Quote
So I'm not sure what your user identity tracking high-horse soapbox rant is all about but you need to realize the following:

No soapbox here, just the internet.

Quote
  • No one is ever going to give their personal information in order to setup accounts for BTC transactions where USD (or other gov backed currency) is not involved.

When trying to make a point, absolutes are not your friend.  I can name at least one person who won't do business at all with a company who is standing to lose his BTC.

Quote
  • No one wants to be tracked via BTC for various reasons, most of all taxes and the fact that BTC is independent of governments - those gov's can suck it when it comes to BTC as they have no hold/jurisdiction/etc on the BTC economy.

Individuals in the U.S. have to report their capital gains by law.  If they don't, it's their business and I don't care if manage to evade the IRS or not.  Any business or citizen within the U.S. does fall into their jurisdiction by simple definition of the word.  Whether this is a just system may be debatable, but that is reality.

You are confusing the ability to hide your assets with the legality of hiding your assets.  I'd be interested to find out how you feel about big business.  Since you are advocating the same kind of money harboring to escape fiscal responsibility brought upon by offshore banking.  Double standard much?

Quote
  • Illegal activities are your own business and if you want to engage in said activities it's not the transaction processors liability that comes under question - do you think Bank Of America gets raided every time some drug dealer takes money out of the ATM?

Bank of America is not held liable because they 'know their customers.' eGold on the other hand, did get shut down for the illegal transactions of their clients. Your example is a situation of 'Exception proves the rule.' BofA and Chase and USBank and etc and etc and etc of all legally functioning banks who know who own every account.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: shotgun on August 12, 2011, 05:28:24 AM

You have failed to understand several basics going on here:
  • Flexcoin and how it interacts with BTC is not a money transfer service. It's a BTC transaction service. No USD or other currency is being dealt with so those "laws" you are referring to not only don't apply, they don't even exist for BTC.

"a business can clearly engage in money transmitting without limiting its transactions to cash or currency and would commit a crime if it did so without being licensed." UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. E-GOLD, LTD

Quote
  • Dwolla doesn't verify their users - they link your bank account and do not have any control over the validity or legality of the bank account you are linking to.

That is a form of verification that can be used.  Paypal allows you to verify your identity the same way.

Quote
  • Users of Flexcoin do not have to move USD into their account to transact BTC, ever, at all. Everything is funded via BTC.
  • USD never even has to interact with any BTC use unless you choose to. The perfect example is a 24x7 miner that has generated BTC out of thin air (and electricity). I can fund my Flexcoin account via BTC I've mined and never ever have a money trail or identity trail involved -- the gov (whichever one you are referring to given that BTC and Flexcoin are not linked to any country's economy anyway) has no idea or trace of my BTC generated through the mining process.

Again "a business can clearly engage in money transmitting without limiting its transactions to cash or currency and would commit a crime if it did so without being licensed." UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. E-GOLD, LTD

(In case this is not going through.  BTC doesn't even need to be a currency.

Quote
So I'm not sure what your user identity tracking high-horse soapbox rant is all about but you need to realize the following:

No soapbox here, just the internet.

Quote
  • No one is ever going to give their personal information in order to setup accounts for BTC transactions where USD (or other gov backed currency) is not involved.

When trying to make a point, absolutes are not your friend.  I can name at least one person who won't do business at all with a company who is standing to lose his BTC.

Quote
  • No one wants to be tracked via BTC for various reasons, most of all taxes and the fact that BTC is independent of governments - those gov's can suck it when it comes to BTC as they have no hold/jurisdiction/etc on the BTC economy.

Individuals in the U.S. have to report their capital gains by law.  If they don't, it's their business and I don't care if manage to evade the IRS or not.  Any business or citizen within the U.S. does fall into their jurisdiction by simple definition of the word.  Whether this is a just system may be debatable, but that is reality.

You are confusing the ability to hide your assets with the legality of hiding your assets.  I'd be interested to find out how you feel about big business.  Since you are advocating the same kind of money harboring to escape fiscal responsibility brought upon by offshore banking.  Double standard much?

Quote
  • Illegal activities are your own business and if you want to engage in said activities it's not the transaction processors liability that comes under question - do you think Bank Of America gets raided every time some drug dealer takes money out of the ATM?

Bank of America is not held liable because they 'know their customers.' eGold on the other hand, did get shut down for the illegal transactions of their clients. Your example is a situation of 'Exception proves the rule.' BofA and Chase and USBank and etc and etc and etc of all legally functioning banks who know who own every account.

Above all you are mistaking the fact that BTC is not a USA currency and does not fall under any of its laws. You're assuming everyone in this discussion is in America? Come on man.

E-Gold is one example of your US Laws but it is not canonical and certainly does not apply to the whole global use of BTC. Sure you may know one business or two or however many that won't do business without identity tracking but one of the main goals of BTC is the lack of identity required to operate transactions. You seem like you are hard up to make BTC another USD or Euro but it isn't and it never will be. If you want the requirements you're bantering on about you should go elsewhere because BTC will never fit that mold.

As to IRS and income reporting - the IRS doesn't give a shit about BTC. If I change it into USD and put it in my US bank account that might be one thing - but I'll repeat myself and remind you that I do not and am never required to do anything with a bank account to use my BTC funds. That is the beauty of BTC - I can buy sell, purchase, and trade goods and services for/with BTC without any interaction with any government backed currency.

Done and done.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: kjj on August 12, 2011, 05:31:50 AM
In short, if Flexcoin is a "Money Transmitting Business" under US law, then we all are too.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: shotgun on August 12, 2011, 05:39:17 AM
In short, if Flexcoin is a "Money Transmitting Business" under US law, then we all are too.

Simple solution: incorporate outside the USA. No one says being under the realm of USA laws in a requirement or a benefit to anything BTC related. If anything it's a benefit to not be, given the rapid economic failure of the USA and the downturn of physical and online privacy.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: kjj on August 12, 2011, 05:42:41 AM
No, I mean "all of us".  Not just US corporations, not just US businesses, not just US citizens.  All of us.

Read 31 CFR 103 and USC 1960 again.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: shotgun on August 12, 2011, 05:48:39 AM
No, I mean "all of us".  Not just US corporations, not just US businesses, not just US citizens.  All of us.

Read 31 CFR 103 and USC 1960 again.

ALL OF US as in the USA - those laws only apply to Citizens. So... I mean correct me if I'm wrong here but I'm am fairly certain that the USA isn't going after BTC users and businesses in the Ukraine, Iran, Spain, Brazil, etc etc etc etc. The USA might have a law against <insert whatever> but that doesn't apply elsewhere unless it's under an international treaty that is abided by in the country of the user.

Why the USA centrism here guys? Not everyone lives where you live. And don't even start telling me that you believe the IRS is going to go after a BTC user in Iran or China or anywhere else. BTC isn't even a big deal yet and you're all worried about taxes. Give me a break.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Ridi on August 12, 2011, 06:11:54 AM
Above all you are mistaking the fact that BTC is not a USA currency and does not fall under any of its laws. You're assuming everyone in this discussion is in America? Come on man.

Flexcoin is a US business and I'm a US citizen.  It's the only law that applies to me and the only law I'm concerned with.  It's not centrism, I'M ADDRESSING ISSUES THAT APPLY TO ME.  As I've pointed out, about 4 times now, 3 times in the thread you quoted (I believe I even emboldened it for you) that as far as the law is concerned, you do not need to be dealing is USD or ANY CURRENCY whatsoever to violate the laws. What part of that do you not understand.

If you want to talk about centrism, this is a U.S. issue.  If it bothers you too see U.S. issues talked about, get off your fucking computer and go outside and enjoy your own fucking perfect little nation.

Quote
E-Gold is one example of your US Laws but it is not canonical and certainly does not apply to the whole global use of BTC. Sure you may know one business or two or however many that won't do business without identity tracking but one of the main goals of BTC is the lack of identity required to operate transactions. You seem like you are hard up to make BTC another USD or Euro but it isn't and it never will be. If you want the requirements you're bantering on about you should go elsewhere because BTC will never fit that mold.

I'm not asking anything of BTC, Flexcoin is NOT BITCOIN. You are severely confused about what system I am critical of.  Bitcoin is awesome and is implemented in a way that you are not, in fact, using a service, but a product.  The product cannot be held accountable for how it is used, only the end users. Flexcoin is a BTC transferring service, an eWallet that lets you transfer money internally to other users, a 'money transferring business'.

Quote
As to IRS and income reporting - the IRS doesn't give a shit about BTC. If I change it into USD and put it in my US bank account that might be one thing - but I'll repeat myself and remind you that I do not and am never required to do anything with a bank account to use my BTC funds. That is the beauty of BTC - I can buy sell, purchase, and trade goods and services for/with BTC without any interaction with any government backed currency.

Done and done.

If you don't think the IRS gives a shit about Bitcoin, try putting a few million dollars into BTC and explain to the IRS where the money went when they come audit you for it.  Once again you are confusing what you can get away with, with what is in fact legal.  You fuck up big enough and somebody will pay attention.

In short, if Flexcoin is a "Money Transmitting Business" under US law, then we all are too.

I don't believe so Kjj (but I'm not a lawyer so this is just my hopes and faith here.), I believe unless we incorporate, Bitcoiners are implementing a distributed product with an assumed value.  Each of us are responsible for our share of the product.  Each of us are individually responsible for complying with the laws in our jurisdictions at our own risk.  One of us committing a crime, like running an unlicensed 'Money Transmitting Business' does not indict the rest of us.  Unless BTC itself is found to be illegal, any number of illegal operations can utilize it without directly harming the BTC community as a whole.

As for all this business about anonymity.  You can be as anonymous as you want if you use your own goddamn wallet.  If you use your own Goddamn wallet then you are entitled to do whatever the fuck you want.  The moment you start trying to take responsibility for other people's money, or you want somebody else to take responsibility for your money, you need to know who you are working with.  It's not just the law, in plain f- common sense.

BTC is awesome, it allows us to escape issues caused by fiat currency, big banks, and government restrictions on international trade, and a variety of other controversial strengths for the moment.  It has many strengths, but your Utopian bias for Anarchy is blinding you to the reality of the world today.  

If BTC is going to bring about an anarchist market, it will have to be fought for.  Don't expect Satoshi's protocol to magically make the governments go away.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: crackers8199 on August 12, 2011, 06:36:57 AM
Again, it seems clear from the e-gold wiki (which you linked to in this thread) its pretty clear the owners of egold KNEW what was going on and knowingly told the users in question ways to avoid the law.  I'm really not sure why you keep trying to apply that circumstance to flexcoin...


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Ridi on August 12, 2011, 07:04:46 AM
Because that was simply an extraneous fact/evidence that made their indictment easier to obtain.  The ruling did not even mention it.  The ruling is the precedent, how evidence that Flex users are 'committing criminal actions' comes about are variable.  It could be, one day, that someone in Flex finds out about the criminal actions of one account, or some drug dealer gets busted and their smart phone has e-mails to his buddy detailing what account to get into for his money.  It doesn't matter, it's all evidence towards the same result.  'Know your customer' laws are akin to taking 'every reasonable action' to prevent harm to the consumer.  You forget to ice your parking lot and you are liable for their resulting injuries.  You refuse to 'know your customer' then you are liable for foreseeable crimes committed using your service.

Edited- To explain how the eGold situation applies a little more specifically.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Ten98 on August 12, 2011, 11:03:34 AM
Normal banks charge no transaction fee, although I accept that they make their money from debt and the concept of debt does not really exist with Bitcoin (yet).

Even still, 0.05% transaction fee seems a little high, when holding my coins in flexcoin offers zero interest or any benefit over being slightly easier to use than Bitcoin. Seems like this is a good way to pay for nothing.

I'd prefer all bitcoin transactions to be free, and you make your money by buying and selling bitcoins for real world currency.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: defxor on August 12, 2011, 12:42:13 PM
I'd prefer all bitcoin transactions to be free, and you make your money by buying and selling bitcoins for real world currency.

Why are you under the impression that Bitcoin is about making money?

Amongst all the other things it is about, it's about not losing as much money as you usually do with various forms of transactions - most of which are hidden to you and "included" in the price you pay. With Bitcoin as the transaction medium, that price will be lower.

FlexCoin promises even lower (and faster) transactions.



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Ten98 on August 12, 2011, 01:47:39 PM
I agree, which is why placing a tax on transactions is so unwelcome.

I'd rather pay 1BTC up front for my account and then all transactions are free.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: cbeast on August 12, 2011, 02:40:50 PM
Kudos for building a useful tool and moving bitcoin forward. With all the stuff that's happened as of late, I will be keeping my bitcoins under the mattress awhile longer.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: lathomas64 on August 12, 2011, 05:35:09 PM
Even if the accounts have 'secret' nicknames I can look at all the nicknames and balances, send a tiny amount ot someone, and then look at the 'secret' nicknames again and find out which is theres. multiple secret nicknames gets around this but I do not want to have to bother setting that up.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: kjj on August 12, 2011, 05:47:07 PM
Even if the accounts have 'secret' nicknames I can look at all the nicknames and balances, send a tiny amount ot someone, and then look at the 'secret' nicknames again and find out which is theres. multiple secret nicknames gets around this but I do not want to have to bother setting that up.

You are assuming the report is done in real time, which isn't necessary for the security of the system.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Michael_S on August 13, 2011, 12:19:31 AM
Even if the accounts have 'secret' nicknames I can look at all the nicknames and balances, send a tiny amount ot someone, and then look at the 'secret' nicknames again and find out which is theres. multiple secret nicknames gets around this but I do not want to have to bother setting that up.

lathomas64, in the best practice example I gave in my  post #113 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=36260.msg450043#msg450043), I have exactly explained why this is NOT so! The list is not published in real time, but only once a day *at most* (or even once a week)!! This way, it is not possible by an outside "curious attacker" to find out which secret name belongs to you! just read my post #113, and you will understand everything.

Moreover, you do not have to "bother setting that up". If you like, this can be a one-time action when you create your account, that's all. Only if you want a paranoid amount of camouflage, you may want to regularly change your secret nicknames (secret IDs), but also this can be automized to bother you only at minimum. If you are really so concerned about your annonymity, you should not use bitcoin, because even with bitcoin itself it IS possible to re-engineer cash flows between bitcoin addresses and thereby see where bitcoins come from and where they go. also this is not 100% annonymous, as it is said in most descriptions.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: nmat on August 15, 2011, 05:17:05 AM
@the founder (FlexCoin), I have an idea for you. You could create two kinds of accounts for each user. Let's say, one savings account and one everyday account. The savings account already exists (generates interest, but has a withdrawal fee) and it would be used mainly for long term storage. The everyday account would generate lower insterest (or no interest at all) and have much lower fees.

I think people are afraid to use flexcoin for frequent payments because there are withdrawal fees. Most of us like to keep a few BTC at hand and there aren't many ewallets alternatives since the mybitcoin case.

It's just an idea. This would make your website a little more complicated and you might not want to implement such functionality. But think about it... ;)


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: pointbiz on August 15, 2011, 05:40:08 AM
Quote
"a business can clearly engage in money transmitting without limiting its transactions to cash or currency and would commit a crime if it did so without being licensed." UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. E-GOLD, LTD

Consider this... in the USA gold/silver is money, gold/silver coin is lawful money. Silver coin is currency. Coins and bank notes are cash and currency. So you can transfer gold bullion (a type of money) without transferring currency, cash or bank money. Bank money is not currency, it's a currency equivalent. US savings bonds are not cash or currency. You could trade US savings bonds and be money transmitting. If you did the same with barrels of oil you would not be transmitting money! Hopefully, you get the point.

Under USA law, Canadian Law, UK Law, Euro Law, Iranian Law, Chinese Law, Indian Law it's not clear what Bitcoin is. But anyone claiming it's legally money is just guessing and/or hoping.



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Ridi on August 15, 2011, 08:33:59 PM
Quote
"a business can clearly engage in money transmitting without limiting its transactions to cash or currency and would commit a crime if it did so without being licensed." UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. E-GOLD, LTD

Consider this... in the USA gold/silver is money, gold/silver coin is lawful money. Silver coin is currency. Coins and bank notes are cash and currency. So you can transfer gold bullion (a type of money) without transferring currency, cash or bank money. Bank money is not currency, it's a currency equivalent. US savings bonds are not cash or currency. You could trade US savings bonds and be money transmitting. If you did the same with barrels of oil you would not be transmitting money! Hopefully, you get the point.

Under USA law, Canadian Law, UK Law, Euro Law, Iranian Law, Chinese Law, Indian Law it's not clear what Bitcoin is. But anyone claiming it's legally money is just guessing and/or hoping.

You're not a lawyer, and that did not make sense to quote the ruling and try to contradict it with that nonsense.  What do you think a US court of law is going to say about bitcoin when it finally comes up? I doubt they'll compare it to something that industrial use like oil, or even gold.  Bitcoin's only purpose is as a currency, and a judge isn't gonna be stupid about it, just because the U.S. Government doesn't recognize it for trade.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Bananington on August 16, 2011, 12:31:53 AM
I like what Flexcoin is doing and I will use it and ask that my customers do so as well. Thank you for the service. I believe many users in this thread have good ideas that need to be considered and I'm really attracted to the way you seem to LISTEN. So keep up the good work flexcoin team.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 16, 2011, 03:34:25 PM
I like what Flexcoin is doing and I will use it and ask that my customers do so as well. Thank you for the service. I believe many users in this thread have good ideas that need to be considered and I'm really attracted to the way you seem to LISTEN. So keep up the good work flexcoin team.

We're trying :)



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Bananington on August 18, 2011, 08:28:39 PM
Flexcoin, you should advertise at http://dailybitcoins.org/ (http://adfo.me/HgRT). That way we both get what we want. Flexcoin gets more exposure and dailybitcoins increases their minimum booby prize.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 18, 2011, 09:01:06 PM
Pm me with rates etc


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: jgarzik on August 24, 2011, 08:37:56 PM
BTW, please consider the example of E-gold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-gold), with regards to FlexCoin's regulatory posture.

In broad strokes, E-gold obtained legal counsel that said they did not have to register as an MSB or file CTRs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_transaction_report) and SARs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspicious_activity_report), because their gold-backed virtual currency was not "money." 

The US federal government -- and common sense -- disagreed, once substantial amounts of value were being transferred overseas using E-gold.

Precedent has shown that the US government wants to track the movement of "funds" all over the world; be proactive about compliance and use common sense: bitcoins are money for all practical purposes.

And yes, I read your Terms of Service (http://www.flexcoin.com/?page_id=118) in its entirety.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: johnj on August 28, 2011, 03:37:47 PM
BTW, please consider the example of E-gold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-gold), with regards to FlexCoin's regulatory posture.

In broad strokes, E-gold obtained legal counsel that said they did not have to register as an MSB or file CTRs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_transaction_report) and SARs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspicious_activity_report), because their gold-backed virtual currency was not "money." 

The US federal government -- and common sense -- disagreed, once substantial amounts of value were being transferred overseas using E-gold.

Precedent has shown that the US government wants to track the movement of "funds" all over the world; be proactive about compliance and use common sense: bitcoins are money for all practical purposes.

And yes, I read your Terms of Service (http://www.flexcoin.com/?page_id=118) in its entirety.


I had signed up for Flexcoin, read this, then disregarded my account.

Another question:  If Flexcoin takes off and there are less and less transaction fees floating around, isn't that shooting yourself in the foot?  If miners are going to be making a larger part of their income from transaction fees in the future, doesn't flexcoins model hurt that?


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: jack102938 on August 28, 2011, 09:20:14 PM
Another question:  If Flexcoin takes off and there are less and less transaction fees floating around, isn't that shooting yourself in the foot?  If miners are going to be making a larger part of their income from transaction fees in the future, doesn't flexcoins model hurt that?

+1 very interesting question...


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: nmat on August 29, 2011, 12:42:47 AM
Another question:  If Flexcoin takes off and there are less and less transaction fees floating around, isn't that shooting yourself in the foot?  If miners are going to be making a larger part of their income from transaction fees in the future, doesn't flexcoins model hurt that?

+1 very interesting question...

There will always be transactions outside of Flexoin, otherwise it would be a decentralized currency. There are a lot of services that allow user to user transfers without using the blockchain: Instawallet, Tradehill, CampBX, etc. It is a natural feature for an online wallet to have.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: kjj on August 29, 2011, 12:55:56 AM
Another question:  If Flexcoin takes off and there are less and less transaction fees floating around, isn't that shooting yourself in the foot?  If miners are going to be making a larger part of their income from transaction fees in the future, doesn't flexcoins model hurt that?

Totally unimportant.  Flexcoin isn't a mining service, and all senders are constantly trying to reduce their fees.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 29, 2011, 02:39:46 PM
ok I'll answer this one:

1 - are we shooting ourselves in the foot if everyone uses Flexcoin Id's ?

Short answer No,  because it's inconceivable at this time or anytime for years to come that "everyone" would be using flexcoin ID's .. 

granted our market penetration is growing at an exponential rate, it has reached the point where VC's have been calling us and we're surprised that none of the exchanges have requested to partner with us in light of the bitcoin.com project by Tradehill.   Mt.gox, Campbx and others have one sitting right here and are not using it,  hence leaving them without a valid product.

We do hope that one day many will adopt the flexcoin ID system, but until that time it's a long uphill battle that most likely will be measured in years.

I hope this helps.





Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: nmat on August 30, 2011, 01:14:57 AM
When do people receive the "discount"? Is it at a fixed day every month? I couldn't find it in the FAQ.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: wildboy211 on August 30, 2011, 10:27:23 PM
I sent bitcoins to my account:
date (time): 08-30-2011 (03:57:58 PM)

its 6:26 and i still dont see the funds in my "available balance", but theyre in my "total balance" and i cant send anyone bitcoins...whats up with that? PM sent and support contacted.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: wildboy211 on August 30, 2011, 10:42:08 PM
I sent bitcoins to my account:
date (time): 08-30-2011 (03:57:58 PM)

its 6:26 and i still dont see the funds in my "available balance", but theyre in my "total balance" and i cant send anyone bitcoins...whats up with that? PM sent and support contacted.

Had to go searching for it...but i answered my own question, and i will probably go back to Mt.Gox because of it...

Quote
7. Bitcoins deposited with Flexcoin will not be available for transfer until 15 confirmations have accrued on the bitcoin network.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 30, 2011, 10:51:56 PM
When do people receive the "discount"? Is it at a fixed day every month? I couldn't find it in the FAQ.


First week of each month..  Next one is going out in 48 hours or so


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 30, 2011, 10:54:09 PM
I sent bitcoins to my account:
date (time): 08-30-2011 (03:57:58 PM)

its 6:26 and i still dont see the funds in my "available balance", but theyre in my "total balance" and i cant send anyone bitcoins...whats up with that? PM sent and support contacted.



It's set for 15 confirms ,  we are considering moving it to 6


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: Trini8ed on August 31, 2011, 12:57:25 AM
You guys should add it so that lets say I have 2.3 bitcoin I want to withdraw them I withdraw 2.3 not enough funds fff so whats the fee I can't find it you need to post when withdrawing how much you can withdraw so you don't have to keep guessing what the fee will be.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: wildboy211 on August 31, 2011, 01:54:22 AM
You guys should add it so that lets say I have 2.3 bitcoin I want to withdraw them I withdraw 2.3 not enough funds fff so whats the fee I can't find it you need to post when withdrawing how much you can withdraw so you don't have to keep guessing what the fee will be.

I agree - i couldnt figure out why i couldnt withdraw, then i realized that i didnt include the fee, now i have something like 0.000043 BTC in my account.


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on August 31, 2011, 09:31:09 PM
Good point we will add that


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: nmat on September 05, 2011, 12:53:13 AM
First week of each month..  Next one is going out in 48 hours or so

Well, you are a little late., but we are still in the first week... I'm curious to know how much I'm gonna get  8)


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: crawdaddy on October 30, 2011, 01:15:04 PM
will you be making a app for flex coin?


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the joint on October 30, 2011, 10:23:44 PM
Anyone want to buy my flexIDs yet?

BitcoinBusiness and BitcoinBank



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: the founder on October 31, 2011, 04:52:57 PM
will you be making a app for flex coin?


It's mobile tested,  with QR support,  bookmarks on iOS devices will render a flexcoin icon.   It is a webapp... just not a downloadable app.



Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: robocop on November 03, 2011, 05:50:02 PM
Quote
Simple idea.  Prove you have X (hopefully X > 1000) bitcoins available under your control that are not customer coins.  Keep those coins in 'cold storage'.  Have an operating corporate charter and presence in a country that is not designed to hide responsibility and identity.  This still insulates you in case of most accidental liability but allows the community to know you have some investment and who you really are.

A very interesting thing.
What would happen, if the bitcoins would going lost?
Then the flexcoin would be a virtual currency like fiat money.

Exists an answer to this question? (If yes then sorry I didnt read the whole thread before)


Title: Re: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!
Post by: koin on March 14, 2012, 07:03:29 PM
new owner for flexcoin: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68689.0