Bitcoin Forum

Concept

Bitcoins, at the moment, are limited to technology-enabled transactions. A web-capable mobile device or desktop is required and the commodity has to be stored on volatile mediums including hard drives and third-party servers.

I wish to allow the average person to actually hold their Bitcoins in hand and give them 1) piece of mind and 2) the ability to trade Bitcoins on-the-spot. There is also the possibility of this being a medium to introduce less tech-savvy individuals to Bitcoin, although -- like a check -- a level of trust is required.

Figure 1:

https://i.imgur.com/9YF97s.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9YF97.png (https://i.imgur.com/9YF97.png)

As detailed in the figure above, I wish to accomplish this through a web portal. The Bitcoins are sent to the service's server for future verification and then put into a physical and printable format. The actual BTC are stored physically onto a QR code through their private key. Once scanned, the Bitcoins can be retrieved digitally with other software.

Keep in mind, the note should then be destroyed after scanning to prevent theft/fraud and the confusion of having a note that may have no value. Again, it is essentially a bank check but with its actual value stored within.

The Note

I want the note to have quality artwork to allow for more trust so people can know it was generated from a reputable source. It should include the service's url, references to where more information about Bitcoin can be found and an icon of liberty, such as Julian Assange.

A field of signing should be on the front, allowing its creator to verify its validity. A visual handshake, if you will.

A reference serial or ID could also be included, allowing a merchant to verify the bill on the service's homepage -- checking to see the note's generation date, who generated it and if its content have been touched or not through verification of the block chain.

---

Execution

This project wishes to be conscious in helping the Bitcoin project while generating profit. Profit will be generated by ad revenue (Operation Fabulous) and the small fee (.005%-2%) that comes with generating notes. It may change as the project continues.

I'll put in 200 BTC. A minimum amount of 100 BTC  is required for investment. The capital will be used towards developers/a developer, a graphic designer to design the notes, and reliable secure hosting. Profit and ownership will be split according to amount invested.

Suggestions are highly encouraged.

If you wish to develop or design for this project, please post your credentials and interest below.

If you wish to invest, post below as well. Again, there is a 100 BTC minimum.

I think this is a great idea, hope it goes somewhere!

I didn’t follow up regarding the extraction of BTC solely from a private address. How does this work easily for someone non tech-savvy? Why not just print the public key on the note, too?

Other than that, I think it’s a nice project. May be investing later when I make up my mind.

These checks are being printed at home by the purchaser, right? That probably rules out double-sided printing. You'll need to make sure the design is also usable for people with black-and-white laser printers.

If you use Julian Assange's image to imply endorsement it will cause problems, but I guess you know that already. Nice attention-getting idea though.

Rather than engaging a designer to produce the note, why not have a design competition with a BTC prize?

Your example shows a commission of 0.5%, not 0.005%. This is too low for a serious business. There's no reason why a Bitcoin check shouldn't have a fee of 1% or 2%. You will need to cover advertising and support costs, in addition to the server hosting costs. With a 2% fee, a check for BTC 20 would cost BTC 20.40.

Anyway, nice concept!

Well, the less tech-savvy don't have to necessarily redeem the note. I doubt they would know what to do with a public key as well.

We would need to develop redemption software that takes a QR code and automatically puts the funds in a wallet. This can be done with just a private key alone, I believe.

Yes, yes they are. A standard laser printer can still do double-sided if you flip the page after the first print. I don't think we would need to accommodate every printer under-the-sun, but black-and-white could be possible.

I will finalize the number after further evaluation. A more detailed plan is in the works.

The competition is an excellent idea. Thank you!

It's also necessary for the redemption software to immediately spend the coins to another address in the same wallet, to make the original check useless for others.

Otherwise, multiple people can scan the QR code into their wallets, and no-one knows how many others have the coins, but the first to spend the coins will be the one who gets the value.

Double-sided printing is possible, but it's surely too difficult to be practical for the average user to get everything oriented correctly.

I don't see any problem for these checks to be single-sided though.

There really isn't. We can save a double-sided version for later.

Also, 20 - (20 * .005) =/= 19.9 BTC, ribuck?

Wouldn't your service be centralizing bitcoin?

Interesting idea Atlas which could work great. If you combine it with an android or iphone app and the proposed Bruce Wagner idea of an account hub merchants can setup you could get the check scanned on the spot.

Maybe an api for other bitcoin sites so they can print  checks or vouchers redeemable in their  stores ?

This would be more secure than normal checks and is in a form that is familiar to people. Unlike fiat cash there is actual backing to these pieces of paper.

Im interested in investing in this idea.

As long as the service doesn't keep the private keys stored over the long-term, I don't believe so.

No more than  mybitcoin.com , mtgox.com, or any other online service.

You could do the same thing by running your own bitcoind server and printing your own checks - for free .  :)

People should be able to trust our notes more easily with the verification services we'll offer. Enter the note's serial ID on our front homepage and it will tell you if the bill is real or not (checks public key balance). It's why people will use our service over printing their own with no verifiable source.

This is a very interesting idea, and would definitely be vital for the less tech-savvy as well as those without cheap, efficient access to the internet.

The problems I foresee with this would be the following:

- How do we know each check has been "genuinely" created?
     For example, how can we be certain that for each check there are BitCoins that represent this, we get into the realm of fractional reserve banking. I suppose the fee is supposed to prevent that, but I still feel this needs to be addressed. The issue here is that a person is allowed to print their own money, literally. What happens if somebody prints out loads of the same check. Fair enough, the serial is unique and can be checked on the internet... but if you already quick and easy access to the internet, why bother with paper checks in the first place?

- Isn't it a bit lumber-some
     So if somebody wishes to trade, they need to get that person's public key and then print it on their home computer, assuming they have a printer, to start with, and then trade it with that specific person only? They then cash it in on their home computer? Sounds like alot of labour for people who already have access to the internet anyway to use BitCoin client instead of this service, which also costs money.

-=Suggestion=-

A paper-currency version of BitCoin is what will truly propagate it amongst those without access to computers or even internet. Perhaps some research into how current fiat currency is printed, and the security technologies invested into them in making them unlikely to be counterfeited should be undertaken and simply applied to BitCoin. I do not know what kind of BitCoin Bank would want to undertake the project, but basically it would work as a paper-currency "pegged" to the BitCoin.

Yes I understand the inherent risks associated with this endeavour, especially considering the fact that BitCoin is supposed to steer away from fiat, centrally controlled currency, however, to build on the free idea, make it so that in order to withdraw X amount of BitCoins in note-form, one needs to pay an extra 1%, or whatever is decided by the issuing authority, more than what they are withdrawing in order to go towards the BitCoin's banks costs of producing the note, and also as a payment for the service of using the note amongst people who do not need the internet, this would be useful in third-world countries wishing to adopt BitCoin, but are unable to due to inaccessibility to cheap internet or computers.

Of course, this doesn't mean only one bank should rule them all, perhaps as other banks prop up, they also make their own unique paper-currency, and the free market will eventually decide who to put their trust in, with regards to who will promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of the BitCoins the notes represent.

Certainly, the ideal way would be to have everybody use the BitCoin client, but I fear this may be too idealistic, people have a sentiment to holding cash in their hand, not on their hard drives.

Some people, anyway.

I actually wrote that same thing in my last reply but deleted it  :)

If the merchant has  a 'check' box next to the check code entry box they could freeze the amount and claim the payment so that the coins couldn't be transferred after the customer handed the check over. 

Well, we must remember that I'm not intending to offer a paper currency pegged to Bitcoin. This could serve similar purposes but these are essentially checks and should be treated as such. They can bounce if not used with careful verification. This is something we should accept.


No, no public keys are needed. A public address can be found with a private key alone. Software will be needed to make redemption from the paper easy. It can be as simple as scanning the code and the money will appear in your wallet within moments.



If you want to make a paper currency that is counterfeit-proof, go right ahead. My service does not intend to offer that at the moment.


This will be considered in the future if there is a demand for such insurance.

Anyways, thank you.

OK, so if this works primarily as a cheque, system, I cannot see why people won't just use their BitCoin clients?

The reason why checks work in the real world, is that some people cannot get bank accounts, so they use checks to go to these services who cash it in for a price and give them cash.

The service you are proposing offers no extra utility. In fact, it would cost somebody more to use your check method, and it also takes up more time, they have to print it etc etc.

I do not understand the advantage you are "selling". Why should somebody use your check-service as oppose to send BitCoins to the payee directly using the client, which doesn't cost anything?

I would say you make the "simple" "complicated".
What for the QR code?! And Julian Assange's face?! Waste of color ink?! Or to make them look nice?

Want to make it simple? Easy! Create a code/pass check to redeem and you're good. The user can write it down, print it up, whatever.

As for the idea of BTC "notes", as I said on other post, "notes" are a cancer on real world trade... are you sure you want them here?

Want a practical use for those "checks"? A and B will met in the coffee for trade BTC, A handles a 20 BTC check (code/pass) to B. B arrives home input the code/pass from A and transfers to his BTC client.

Want even less hassle to trade BTC in the real World? Fine! Open an account at MyBitcoin or create a similar service for the purpose, fund it with 20 BTC, pick some acrylic gray/silver ink, dishwasher detergent and thin tape. Print the user/pass you used with MyBitcoin in a card, cover both fields with thin tape, paint over the tape with a mix of acrylic/detergent. Sell the card to the buyer. Now all he needs is to scratch the fields with a coin or so, go to MyBitcoin or the service you created. Enter the given user/pass and withdraw it.

Having a QR-code plainly visible on the paper which turns out to be the private key needed to get the Bitcoins? That will NEVER give me peace of mind. It's far too insecure; there are way too many ways for somebody to scan the code before I give the paper to someone in exchange for whatever I might be buying, in which case I lose and have no way of ever getting the money back (unless the thief was dumb enough to send it to MtGox).

Before you go any further, you should clearly understand what checks and bank notes are, and what functions they perform. Here's the crash course:

A check is an order from you to a third party (bank) to take money from your account and give it to the person named on the check. There are plenty of variations, but that's what it boils down to.

A bank note was, before it was made fiat, essentially a warehouse receipt, which the bearer could take to the bank and claim whatever was being warehoused, in this case money, and specifically gold or silver. These traded freely based on the trust that the issuing bank would redeem the note when it was eventually presented.

(Eventually someone figured out that since few people actually redeemed the notes, they may as well not bother allowing them to be redeemed, keep the gold for themselves, and just inflate and deflate the supply of "money" at whim. This was the primary cause of the Great Depression, among many other financial disasters.)

Here I see a huge train wreck approaching: If these physical pieces of paper gain any real acceptance in the market, we'll again be in the situation where few people actually redeem them. Cashed out notes could trade for a long time before anybody discovered the fraud, and by then it would be practically impossible to do anything about it. And it would most likely be the person who understands these issues better than most people who is most likely to attempt to redeem the note.

Now putting the code behind a scratch label could work, if it's done in a way that prevents various well-known attacks on lottery scratch tickets. I think there's another thread about this on the forum. But then you're into card stock instead of paper, and lose some utility.

error,

Each time I ear about the idea of "bitnotes" it gives me the creeps!
It's exactly as you said. Today's money, the money we carry on our wallets, worth zero, is just a printed piece of paper. So far we'd been using it and, as you said, the reason for this fraud to work for so long by now is because you can't redeem it, but eventually the fraud will surface and the outcome might be disastrous. Money not indexed to anything... creepy! But is what we have on our wallets.

Also the other issue of "bitnotes", it can be produced at will, so sooner or later you would have billions of BTC around even if there will never exist more than 21 million.

For those unaware of what "banknotes" can do for you, this video might help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGk5ioEXlIM&feature=related

You carry the same risk with a check with it displaying your bank account number. The same risk is also associated with debit and credit cards. If you don't like it openly displayed, feel free to cover it with an envelope.

About the potential fraud, it's up to the people using our product. My idea is sound. The rest lies in the people. People have to choose to be aware.

A simple version could be offered. As for me, if I am going to bother printing something with value, I want it to look nice.


The average joe doesn't want that. They want print and go.


The value isn't in your hand. MyBitcoin has it. I want it to be mine and mine only.

As I said; or your own similar service.
And you can print those cards to look nice.  :)

Technology is volatile, especially when connected to the internet. High-quality paper can be preserved safely in your own eyes.

I don't use checks.

You say your idea is "sound" but... I wonder how much credit you give to people; if they have to be "aware" (of what?) and they are not (they won't be) then the system falls apart.

I don't know if any defense of your system that you can provide will make up for its inherent weaknesses. Feel free to attempt to prove me wrong, but just claiming your idea is "sound" without any reason is unbelievable. Especially here. It would be better for your reputation (not to mention the people who use it!) if you spent more time designing it to address the problems.

I would have to disagree with even that. If you are talking about the average-joe, they would rather get some physical cash, go to a local shop, browse, and then pay money to receive good.

This is much more preferable to going into a shop, seeing what you like, rushing back home to print out a check, rushing back to the local shop to exchange the check for the good, the shopkeeper then rushing back home or to a computer to cash in the check, but then a percentage is taken off as a fee.

This is where phone-apps would be best for this sorta thing.

If you want a fool-proof physical transaction system, you can go elsewhere. There is always risk when you deal with money and in this case the risk is left completely up to the individual. In my eyes, that's as close to perfect as you can get it.

There's my reasoning.

If people can't handle the responsibility my system requires, so be it. Let it fall; however, I believe that won't be the case with the right information.

You could have pre-printed checks.

Phone-apps are a possibility but a lot of people lack such technology at the moment. That's where I come in.

You guys should take your arguments to the credit card companies. You are essentially arguing against the potential theft of credit card numbers. :P

The world is still turning, gentlemen.

Hold on a second, I think I misunderstood the process.

So basically you submit your BitCoins to you at an address you'll create. You then provide the user who submitted the BitCoins a QR code containing the private key to the BitCoins. Whoever you pay this to can then take it hope, scan it, have access to the money and send it to themselves.

That actually sounds ok, because they don't need to trust you to pay. They only need to trust that you won't shift the money around to make the check bounce, and unlike a normal check, there isn't a specific payee embedded in the note.

I see where you're coming from, pretty good, tbh, doesn't even need to be printed out, just keep it as an image on your phone or something which can get scanned and picked up. I would like to see this service used when BitCoin is accepted as a currency on a local level.

That's precisely why credit cards can be charged back.

There's no reason anyone would use this service when they can just print their own private-key-containing QR codes for free, without trusting anyone.

There is a reason. My service makes it easy for the public keys associated with these private keys to be verified easily. This is through the serial numbers that will be issued on the checks. That's we are charging for. You don't have to just rely on an individual's word when he gives you a QR-code.

If you just want to print QR-codes for your own personal back-up, that works too but I am not only catering to that type of individual. I will certainly make such a service (physical back-up) free.

Also, if you want the ability to charge-back, Bitcoin isn't the currency for you. Haha.

I suppose being able to verify that a transaction is still unspent without downloading the block chain is valuable. But you can already do that with Bitcoin Block Explorer...

So let's see if I understand it right.

You handle me one of those "checks", I go to some address input its serial # and the site tells me how much is in that "account".
I scan the QR-code containing the PK and that's it.
So if it was already "cashed-out", the serial # will tell me "nill", "zero".

right?

Yessir. That's absolutely correct.

So, in that case, the merchant could deny purchase.

Yes, you can but a public key is a bit cumbersome. I wish to simplify that with smaller serials on the notes.

Wait a second, why do you need the public keys on the checks?

You still have not addressed the fatal flaw here: Merchants will, sooner or later, stop verifying them at point of sale unless there's a technical requirement to do so. They will stop because they will trust the notes, because for a long time they all verify OK. At that point, I come along and pretend to be texting on my Android while I'm really snapping pictures of other people's QR codes and sending the Bitcoins to myself.

Worse, this system practically requires merchants to not only verify them at point of purchase, but to cash them out; otherwise an unscrupulous employee at the till can just take all the QR codes for himself. This is just too risky. I could not imagine accepting these as a merchant as-is.

You don't. However, I prefer to give people an alternative to scanning the private key. You want to avoid copying the private key as much as possible.

I don't believe merchants will be naive enough to start trusting them as-is. It simply isn't in the market's best-interest. Your ability to describe such a scenario so quickly simply proves it won't happen.

Why don't you start snapping pictures of people's credit cards then? I wish you luck.


Employees have and can steal actual cash. There are systems to prevent this and they will be certainly made if the need arises for my checks. I don't see anything wrong with merchants just cashing them out digitally and destroying the note. It's actually more convenient in the end but still allows the average joe without a fancy smartphone to use Bitcoins anywhere.

We can list "what-ifs" all day. What if people mistake these notes for receipts and just throw them away? Honestly. : P

Anyways, I like the questioning-attitude.

(Quote elided)

You're assuming people will act perfectly in conformance with your protocols, and I am saying that the other six billion of us live in a world where that just isn't going to happen. No human is perfect, except perhaps yourself. :P When things go wrong -- and they WILL, despite your protestations -- it's your notes that will take the blame in many people's minds. (Whether that's fair or not is irrelevant.)

What I really don't understand is your apparent unwillingness to consider any security issues with respect to your notes. This really does not inspire confidence.

On the contray, I embrace the fact we are free-thinking (or sporadic to those who deny freewill) individuals. Yes, failure will occur just as wallets are stolen and how other heinous crimes occur. You could say life it self has serious "security issues".

I don't know how you expect me to fix facts of life. I can't prevent people from abusing something they inherently have physical access to.

Unless there are other "flaws" that haven't been covered, I think I've done all I could in reducing risk as much as possible.

http://www.bityacht.com/Atlas.jpg

This would be a good start for an idea to print it. QR-Code stays under a scratch layer.

Haha, wow, thank you.

Hm, we could sell such notes separately for those who need that layer of security, since most people aren't willing to paint pieces of paper. There is also the possibility of Kiosks, but that's an expensive venture that won't have any return until far into the future.

Wonderful, nice concept.

Love it!

But you have not done all you can (see the nice mockup directly above). I don't expect you to fix "facts of life" (whatever that means). As a potential user, I do expect some level of security against the most obvious attacks. As it stands, your system is unworkable in the real world. I expect the market will reject it outright.

Well, I have yet to see any objective reasoning for rejection. Feel free to provide.

I guess you don't like credit cards or checks, eh?

We could simply have a fold of paper that you can seal over the QR code. That solves that.

If I were to use this, I'd go for the scratchpad rather than folded paper! Just a personal preference if there were competing services.

Scratchpad looks cooler but then it can only be transferred once. With a fold over cover it could go through multiple hands before being redeemed.

Surely not? The QR code would only be needed to access the BTC in the block chain - when that is done, the printed note becomes invalid.

One thing to keep in mind is this is likely to be highly illegal pretty much anywhere. At the very least any government would want you to register to handle financial transactions. At worst, they'll see this as a paper currency issued by Atlas. CYA.

Yeah, that's true. If you can just check the balance is there with the serial number then the scratch part is safe..

In your original post you wrote 0.005%, which equals 0.00005, not 0.005.

Dont make them look anything like fiat or write "cash" or "bank" on them.

I like the scratchcard idea.

Second that. A scratchcard would be a fine solution. Also, people like scratching them up … At least I do. :D

Its some peoples favourite past time. Sitting down at the cafe drinking a coffee while scratching a 2 dollar ticket :)

I would add a small feature to your draft Atlas; have also a SMS or WAP service to lookup the serials.

The thing is, is that the checks are supposed to be designed for people who want to use BitCoin but do not have the technological requirements to use it, if they did, they might as well just download the client.

If there is a scratchpad, then that provides confidence that the note has definitely not been redeemed and can be circulated in trade with confidence, where here the only person they need to trust is the issuer of the check, and not the handler of them.

This would require kiosks being set up, true enough, but certainly more secure than just printing this stuff out. Printing checks out would only be useful if you were going to give them to the person you wish to deposit your BitCoins with, like real checks, instead of a sort of check-book money alternative.

/me too

i was promoting it as well a few days ago. anyway i also promote the idea of separating pvt key and amount when printing.

scenario:
i already have a printout of a key so i (publicly) distribute the address to collect payments to that address
 i hold the key already.

in such case the printed value would not match the balance stated

and publishing pvt key is no-no.

@atlas, good luck anyway. 1:10 chance the idea will take off

People either like an idea or they don't. The only way to find out is to put it out there.

When you gonna launch this idea, man?

Considering barely anybody is interested in investing, probably not anytime soon. I have a better idea in the works anyways.

I'll invest once I get the money, I really like the idea. What's your other idea?

I don't want to reveal it until I have it fully fleshed out. The doubters will rip it to shreds otherwise. : P

I this the one you were asking about in the off-topic forum?

No.

What was that one then? I'm curious. :)

Heh. Alright, it's not really patentable anyways.

I have my eye on some cheap cell-phone grade hardware. I would like to see it turned into a minimalist's laptop. It would do text, email and RSS with a battery life lasting for more than a day. That's the dream that I see as an amazing potential product if it can be made under $100.

It would be mainly marketed to writers, obviously. I want one myself.

That is a good idea! I'd buy one. :)

Why not print the note on a bleached FRN? Not stiff enough to support scratch-off paint, but invisible ink will work. ;)

N900! Although that is more than 100 USD...

The screen is small and the keyboard is cramped. I want my device to have one of the best full-size keyboards on the market.

Connect a keyboard via bluetooth and video out to an hdtv.

I implemented this last week:

http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3716.0

Feel free to build upon it.

*salutes*

Thank you.

How can you warranty that there's no double-spending without having the client waiting in the shop for an hour until the transaction is verified?
Maybe I'm missing something.