Bitcoin Forum

The wealth grab continues

http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-oxfam-world-economic-forum-income-inequality-20140120,0,7080817.story

Oxfam and other bullshit charities are calling for higher taxes on the rich, however that will only help government get bigger and more corrupt.

Our chance to win against this is for Bitcoin to hit $1Million per BTC

It will need to be much higher than 1 million to even come close to what you would call "winning" this.

$1 million per BTC with 13 million coins would account for about 1.5% GDP.

I wouldn't call 1.5% of the score winning the match...

PS
Remember we won't have 21 million coins until 2140 and in all reality we will NEVER have 21 million coins. Some will be lost.

They will own some if you give them some.

I suspect nouveaux riche are much more interested in funding public interest ventures than are the ancien regime.  You don't get to be the old money by giving it all away.

They don't own any bitcoins at the moment, but that can change.

The original title is "85 richest people own as much as bottom half of population"

And you say "85 people now own 50% of world's wealth"

Any problem with your reading comprehension?  ::) ::)

Nice catch.  I hadn't even noticed that.  Could use less snark.

So in a few years with the 85 people that hold 50% of the world's wealth change from those that hold it in fiat now to those that hold it in BTC?  That is the question I guess?

1) They don't hold 50% of the worlds wealth

2) Why do you think they hold it in fiat? They might measure the value of it in fiat, but that is not what they hold

Ok. It doesn't have to be 85.  It doesn't need to be specifically "fiat."   Let me rephrase the question.

Will those that hold the vast majority of "wealth" change to those that hold it in BTC?

I am quite comfortable in predicting the top 85 bitcoin holders hold more than the bottom 50% of bitcoin holders.

lol :P

Yeah, they don't talk about how much the middle class are getting screwed over do they?

Ah, but it is mostly a very different group of 85.  That will help the global Gini co-efficient a lot.

Good point.  I would be surprised if there was any overlap at all at this stage.

:-\

There are two kind of mega rich. Those who use the power of government for rent seeking, and those who get rich by pleasing customers and create jobs. More taxes will only please the government rent seeking corperations. 

This was actually misquoted on the radio this morning too.

The DJ said that the richest 85 people own 50% of the worlds wealth. That didn't seem right to him, or to me. Happy to know that he was mistaken.

Where did you get that idea from?

1 million x 13 million = 13 trillions

World GDP is 75 trillion or so. So 13 trillions out of 75 trillions are roughly 17,3% (of the world GDP).

I have no idea why we are calculating the GDP and not the monetary base (which would make a lot more sense), but anyways, it's almost the same number.

Damn.  For a second there, I thought maybe we could kill 85 people and double everyone else's standard of living.  ::)

In 10 years if bitcoin takes over the world it will be "85 people now own 50% of Bitcions"

Oh wait you can say that today already.....

The poorest people in the world don't even have clean water, let alone access to a computer to store Bitcoin........

You don't need a computer to store your bitcoin, because it lives in the blockchain.  A brain wallet will suffice.  Even if they did need a computer, it's a lot easier, cheaper, to provide everyone with a computer (which is essentially a tiny bit of sand, after all, perhaps with a miniscule amount of some metals) than to provide them with potable water for life.  And it is almost certainly better to equip them to get their own damn water than to provide it to them anyhow.

Handing out bitcoins worth a 50kUSD each would certainly change things quite a bit, as entrepreneurs sought to offer services desired by the newly created consumer class.  Those $20 bn mostly go into the hands of kleptocrats, tyrants, profiteers, often encumbered.  If they were used effectively, as would personal wealth be, the picture would be very different.

Economies are great tools for self-improvement.  Create an economy and you create a lot of opportunity.  Can't solve all problems, but can certainly ameliorate a very large number of very severe problems.

Doesn't the bottom x% of the world have negative wealth :D
Maybe even bottom 50% together.

Surely depends on the measure of wealth.

Yes, what is "wealth'?

I'd say it is "quality of life".

And they acquire those wealth by almost doing nothing

Since all the money printed out originally belongs to Federal Reserve Banks, they own every penny of those money. Of course those money do not present all the wealth of the nation, but through QE, they purchased many assets amid the crisis. Even the value of dollar crashed later, they have already gained the ownership of those assets

If wealth-distribution is a major problem then are we making any progress toward a solution by Bitcoin? Let's face it, geeks and daredevils (speculators c.s.) are not the most emphatic sort of people, are they, yet they are the big owners of Bitcoin. They either suffer from a lack of social skills or from an overdose of testosterone (causing more risk taking). Take for instance the Winklevoss brothers ... (fill in the dots) ... 'our' new banksters? Let's hope, I'm mistaken, and I'll burn a candle for the exceptions like guru Andreas Antonopoulos.

Bitcoin will probably reset the button for a lot of people and their wealth, but I also think that it will not necessarily change the wealth of the rich. They aren't rich without reason. They or their families and generations have made smart choices. I think everyone that 'has not' likes to think those that 'have' stole it somehow. It's easy to villain-ize people especially if you are envious. It doesn't necessarily make it unfair. It's just that you don't have it and you want it.

Here's an idea... If you want to have 10% of the worlds wealth, why don't you setup a plan for 10 generations of your family and start taking the steps that will work towards getting that wealth generations down the line. That's what some of these super wealthy families have done and that's why they are where they are at now.

I believe so.  The distribution of wealth across a group is not so much a problem as it is indicative of the underlying power structure within that group.  Bitcoin takes some power from banks and gives it to individuals in a way which I perceive to be, on net, a boon to humanity.   Banksters would only have power in Bitcoin proportional to their ability to trick others into giving them power and money, i.e. they could be nothing more than scammers.  Perhaps some measure of "wealth-gap" will decrease, perhaps it will increase, but either way, I believe it will be a change for the better.

This is typically a scammer want you to believe. They are just much smarter in scamming you to work for them

I agree, but it's not exactly scamming. You work because you need to. Millions of people would like to work for somebody at this point.

Anyway, I just turned communist.

lol, communism is one big scam too. But this time you're scammed by the government and not by the "business man". One way or another there always will be a scam. And I can't even call it a scam, if you're smart enough to scam people and not get caught or even noticed - good for you.

Well this is the price of our global economy system.
Just deal with it.

ITT: More reporters and posters that don't understand the universality of the Pareto Principle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle

Yes, maybe you are right - but by the same token a lot of posters don't seem to understand the significance of moral agency  ::).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_agency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_agency)



Yes, agreed - and I'm hoping so too. ;)

Go tell the women that we are leaving (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj5mVO8kMrk)

The 85 Richest People In The World Have As Much Wealth As The 3.5 Billion Poorest

http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2014/01/23/the-85-richest-people-in-the-world-have-as-much-wealth-as-the-3-5-billion-poorest/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2014/01/23/the-85-richest-people-in-the-world-have-as-much-wealth-as-the-3-5-billion-poorest/)

<< As the World Economic Forum begins in Davos, Switzerland, Oxfam International has released a new report called, "Working for the Few", that contains some startling statistics on what it calls the "growing tide of inequality". >>

But if we, that hold some Bitcoin out of compassion go to these places to give them a chance at clean water and other basic necessities as well as education and so on we can start changing things for the better.  Maybe I am a bit naive or a "dreamer" but I am already in the works of planning a trip with a group called Harvest India this fall and one goal will be bringing some clean water by putting a water well (or several if enough funds are raised) in these villages and also supporting the education that is taking place there.  I am even thinking about introducing the founder of the organization to Bitcoin.  It does not seem that India has been too friendly with the adoption of it but it would be great to have a better way to send funds there if possible and they are doing so many great things there.

This is the wrong reaction but right solution to the problem.
This gift from Oxfam shows that 85 people who own as much wealth as 3,500,000,000 people are not responsible stewards, it isn’t farfetched to assume they haven’t generated there wealth by being productive in society through mutual beneficial actions but have instead constructed a lawful way to siphon wealth to the top.

I wonder how many of the 85 are members of the Council on Foreign Relations?  

The problem is Fractional Reserve Banking backed by Central Banks, they increase the money supply at the expense of wellbeing of Billions of people at the bottom of the pyramid.  

3.5 billion people that's 3,500,000,000. This typical American number is very confusing for non-americans, like myself. I always have to think twice before I figure the correct amount of zeroes. Just saying.
Anyway, the best graph I ever saw on this board was this:

http://bitcoinexaminer.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Who-owns-all-the-bitcoins-1-700x1024.png (http://bitcoinexaminer.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Who-owns-all-the-bitcoins-1-700x1024.png)

1.What sort of businesses, stocks etc. are the 85 involved in? I don't want specific company names just the type of trades.

2.How did they accumulate so much money during a period of bad economic environment?

I noticed something was up this past year when I read that luxury cars have increased in sales while other industries are struggling. At first I thought is was because of the new millionaires in china but their economy hasn't been good lately.

I'm not sure exactly - its almost impossible to find out who owns what on a modern stock exchange for example, the owners being carefully and deliberately hidden from view via holding companies and so on - but you can guarantee that oil will have played a big part somewhere along the line. Thats my guess anyhow.

It has been going on since Feudalism took hold, there was a big shake up and reversal during the enlightenment and the industrial revolution. We have been moving backwards over the last100 years to get to this point of absurdity.

Lots of education to do to find out how it was done but ultimately you need to be in the business of creating money and Propaganda. Another Swiss report had over 60% of wealth generating assets being owned by less than 50 entities.

Yep its true, I've read articles on how high end markets are booming since the past 5 years, you look around you and you see standards of living are plummeting with cost of living skyrocketing. Yet supercars, yatchs, high end jewelry , mansions, designer fashion, premium butler services, and other elite luxury items and services are at high demand and companies within the luxury industry are doing pretty well.

There is no doubt that the wealthy have been getting richer in the past decade and middle class and poor poorer. Not because of freemarkets but the exact opposite.

These 85 people could lose half their money and not even notice....

They don't use money to quantify there wealth. Redistribution of there wealth would disrupt the homeostasis to the system with a resulting power struggle and war. They need to rethink there role as the homeostasis is being disrupted by there existence.

I'm glad someone had the guts to say it before me. Everything that has been said about the 85 people here could be said about the top 2% bitcoin holders, and the situation is the same with crypto currencies. Be honest with your intentions when you are sitting on a pile of coin hoping for it to shoot to the moon!

Owning 50% of something small like Bitcoin is not comparable with owning more wealth than half the world's population.

Also consider what ever wealth Bitcoin represents is backed only by what people who want to use it are willing to part with for it.

i.e. Bitcoins value is voluntarily given, where as the fiat money makers just target to take value away, between 2 or 3% of the poorest people's value every year.

There is a theory of  Law of large numbers (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers) and the Central limit theorem (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_limit_theorem) which suggest wealth and Bitcoin will never be equally distributed. Bitcoin will increase in value and crash over and over until this equilibrium is reached.  

Bitcoin may look similar to current wealth distribution but it doesn't represent even 0.00001% of the world's wealth. It can only grow as a result of distribution moving to resembling a normal distribution curve.

The big holder's know this it's not about having all the Bitcoin's it's about creating the most wealth in Bitcoin. The wealth won't materialize if the distribution isn't optimal. And just so you know it won't look anything like the 99% - 1% of today's distribution.

I was just about to post the same thing, but thought to check someone hadn't achieved frost piss. ;-)

I think it need elucidating to some though: Pareto said something along the lines that 80% of his garden peas came from 20% of the pods.  Juran noticed 80% of the wealth was owned by 20% of the population.

Now, you can extend that: of that 20% likewise 20% of those people hold 80% of that wealth too, and similarly in that group too 20% holds 80% of the wealth.  Now you reach a limit as humans are countable.

i.e. it's a simple power law distribution applied to integers.

So, when you read 85 people own 50% of the world's wealth it is nothing more than fun with statistics time.