Bitcoin Forum

Don't tell me we have another Federal Reserve mentality who is always late to the game and re-acts instead of ACTS!  Hmmmm Mt. Gox for all its past problems does not look like the bad guy to me fellas.

You academics need to pull your head out of your asses and listen for once instead of being in love with your calculators.  Lift your head up. 

Sorry but +1 for Gox.  Someone needs to redact some hurtful statements there.....

So I posted the other day I had too many coins in gox across accounts to admit haha, and felt admitting that it was due to complacency and stupidity that I did so .... I take that back.  I now have 5783 coins in Gox as I am buying here and if I have the patience and guts to buy back in to 8,000 coins then I will do so.  They have never done me wrong and I understand that this is an experiment.  If I lose, I lose and I knew that way back when.

So who here has heard of a Board of Directors who knew there was a problem for over two and a half years and wrote papers and academics detailing the problem but did not act until after the problem had manifested itself?  The Federal Reserve you would say!?!  And you would be right.

What is different here is we have the power to do something about it and soon you are going to see some changes.  From me.  I am in the shadows working on many projects but one of them will simply be a new core team of developers for BTC, the community will have the opportunity to go in Bitcoin 1.0's direction or Bitcoin 2.0's direction.  I see too much Americentric development and discussion around Bitcoin's future.  Luckily the phenomenon has a voting mechanism to choose which way they wish to go with 51% of the network power.

They have all served their purpose and done well.  However for the experiment to become reality, we will require a bit more discipline and less drama.

I don't think they need to apologize, since MtGox send out badly formed TXs, but they should at least tell the truth.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=460944.msg5099461#msg5099461
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=461714.msg5099896#msg5099896

I agree that many Bitcoin users tend to deny/ignore problems and think Bitcoin isn't vulnerable / that the Devs will fix all problems as soon as they appear in no time.
"Oh there is a hole on the street, lets just put a sign in front for the moment. Someone is going to fix it after a bunch of people fall into it."

The mentality was alright in 2009 when the media didn't watch Bitcoin, but now every problem with the network damages Bitcoins reputation.
In 2009 Bitcoin would have probably survived a 51% attack. Today reversed TXs would destroy Bitcoin.

No. Stop talking nonsense.
This is Goxs fault and their bad software implementations, the other exchanges did not have this problem.

Yes! A nice apology, lets go back to the old bitcoin days before serious money became involved :(

Dude, there's no reason to work in the shadows. It's also bad for your eyes.

You blame some board of directors for this, yet any developer could have improved the problem areas surrounding malleability. Anyone -- including you and  developers employed by any exchanges -- could have posted patches for that and they would have been accepted if they were good enough.

Now the obvious fix for this lack of contributions in areas you think are important would be to start contributing and sending patches. But no, you'll work on a "new core team of developers". I don't see how that makes sense.

Wesand: you have over 5000 coins in gox??

No, it's Gox's problem.  Their exchange is better suited for magic cards. 

Apologize for what?
For letting them run a custom software that was buggy?

Gox did so much damage with their statement to the bitcoin world , they are the ones that should apologize.

Yeah, I think it should be the other way around.

Yep, I am coming out of the closet, just bought 40 more from 528 - 540 ;)  I will just buy, buy and buy.  That does not include cash I have with them as well.  Hehehe.  These dooms day sayers kill me everytime.

How do you think I have 6000 coins.  I do not do this for fun my friend.  I understand risk and this will be another example of where that has come in valuable.

You need to examine the situation a little more closely.  Gox is clearly at fault.  Even with bugs they could manually process transactions (slowly) for those in need, that is if they have the coin to do so.  

Gox had problems before their official statement. No other exchange is as bugged as gox is, they have Facebook and Twitter accounts, but hardly ever write anything, they don't care about customers and basically have no customer support at all. Don't forget they also had fiat withdrawal problems - what does it have to do with bitcoin vulnerability? Good customer relations and smooth management of deposits/withdrawals are the basics if you run a financial business. Gox failed at both.

When you 'care' about customers during a Goldrush it is a slippery slope.  There are no rules here and EVERYONE seems to forget this is an experiment.  I have put my money and the people around me, where our mouths are.  I have done some fun projects but the serious ones under development are around the corner.  We also do not need donations or investment hehe.  There are some changes coming my friends.  Coinbase and all the others including Gox have been warned.  Like their M.O. I am fully confident they recognize no validity to any threat - congrats to me! ;)

To the fella above, you seem to forget the direction of Bitcoin is controlled by a 51% stake in its mining abilities.  I offer you the challenge - come up with something better than we have.  We will instantly obsolete 49% of all Bitcoin businesses who do not go with the hard fork when (if) it arrives.  Be aware.  Get educated.

And further more , the bug was first mentioned in 2011 , Gox claimed to have problems but never said a word about what kind of problems till they took the time to find something to blame and come up with this.
If they indeed suffered loses out of this , why don't they say how much and when..

They were just passing the blame. The devs warned gox about this problem before apparently.

+1

It's not the bug in their exchange that pissed everyone off..

It's the way they dealt with it.. as always.

Did they have to release a statement to the masses saying 'Bitcoin has a BUG! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!'..

Inflammatory bollox.

Same same from GOX.

Steer clear. Your choice.  ::)

Don't you know that if you count all the bitcoins that people on this forum have it sums up to around 40 millions ? =))))

You are mistaken.

It only takes 1 miner and 1 user to fork the blockchain and create an alternative Bitcoin.  It does not require 51% of the miners.

On the other hand, it requires 100% of all users (not 51% of the miners) to change anything in the fundamental nature of bitcoin.

You clearly have misunderstood what a 51% attack is.

I am sure there are many things I do not understand.  That is why I pay people.  I am also certain there are things you do not. ;)  What GOX did was genius for Bitcoin - you all have it backwards like usual.  In the REAL WORLD calling  a problem out provides credibility.  As opposed to burying it in the shadows for 2.5 years like the foundation who were too busy being popular.  I understand it, it gave me time to load the gatlin up and now they stand little chance.  I enjoy competition.  To cheer the genius of an infant technology like cryptographic currencies such as the Bitcoin Foundation is irresponsible.  With real corporate governance and best practices and procedures that will soon be put forth through an institution with a back bone and some credibility you will see real changes my friends.  Not techies in the valley haha.  Real World professionals.

GOX gets my vote and that is why my funds and coins are there.  Was there a moment I was concerned - sure.  Do I have concern now - not much.  They are more pro-active than most corporations and ALL institutions in my opinion and this is all just my opinion.  NEVER forget this is an experiment people.  Be a big boy and manage your own risk, do not expect a customer support ticket to assuage your fears - too funny!

Me: Hey, let me show you this revolutionary new currency where you no longer need to trust banks to store and send your funds!

You: Oh cool, I love it! Which bank should I use to store my coins?

Me: Uhh... err... wut? ???

Reminder: If you aren't the sole controller of your private keys, you don't have any bitcoins.

"Don't you know that if you count all the bitcoins that people on this forum have it sums up to around 40 millions ? =))))"

Given that the supply is capped at 21 million that is a good trick.

Indeed, one can at anypoint fort the blockchain and create an altcoin with it's own transaction history diverging for the "real" bitcoin from that point on. However nobody would put much trust nor value in such alt chain.

If someday, more than half of the miners/hashpower agreed to change something fundamental about bitcoins, (say, remove the 21 million bitcoins cap). Of course, it would require an hard fork. Users who agree with the change will use the new blockchain, while those who dissagree will continue tu use (and mine on) the old block chain. But since both will diverge from that point on, new transactions valid on one wont on the other. Sooner or later, people will have to make a choice, wether to use the new or the old. And then, the "losing" chain's coins will be worthless. Don't forget that bitcoin's value is purely based on thrust that it can be exchanged for something. They have no inherent value.

So changing anything fundamental "only" requires a broad concensus. (if only half of people wanted the change, I guess both may exist side by side, but it would be extremely confusing.)

You can not be sane keeping cca 5M USD on an exchange known to have issues for a long time unless it is just a splash in your overall wealth. Those coins are only yours if it sits on your paper wallet with encrypted private key with a solid password. Even if there is 5% or 10% probability that you will lose your coins due to Mt.Gox why the heck would you risk it? 5M USD is enough for several people´s lifetime to spend. You should have withdrawn the money and enjoyed your life.

And thinking that 12 millions only have been mined , it's even more funny.

Gox should apologise to the Bitcoin community for its continue shitty service and causing the panic yesterday.

yea, for someone who is trying to portray himself as business savvy that is one amateur move

Hehe, guys I will humour you.  You will read the story soon enough.  I dumped in over $500,000 early last year when the size of the network was 600 Petaflops.  I sold everything around $1142 on GOX at the highest point.  I have bought back in marginally on every single dip since then.  It is not a mystery what happened and now I will ride the push this year to over $8000 per coin.  I planned to only buy back in at about $1.3M and was in the middle of doing so when I got gox'ed, so if all my money was lost I decided to start buying more if not everything I have back into coins and have almost done so hehe.  Again I have recognized the situation.  If everything I had was gone - there was no risk to put it all on the table at this point.  I understood the $500k may go to zero, I do not see it as X million.  I have probably pulled about $150k out.  I see no reason to take anything out right now.

I am so frustrated that I know a few miners that had a lot more coins than me and he dumped them all at $10 long before I knew what a Bitcoin was.  Now he works for me.  Managing risk is what I excel at.  Sorry that is hard for you to understand.  Best of luck to you.  Maybe you will get lucky with EarthCoin - it is a project I felt worthy of my attention.  You never know...

I'm not a programer, so I'm not going to argue about the achievements of the Gox team in this matter. I'm more of a PR guy and a customer and their management here is nonexistent. People don't have to be assured about the safety of their money, but they need honesty and transparency. If you have problems with managing funds, just say it, yes you will lose money, more people will withdraw investments, but that's life, you can't handle it -reduce the number of custommers until you can. What Gox did was what every scammer does, take it slow, don't announce anything, don't admit to anything, if caught blame others.

Hihi , wasn't that two days ago :) ? Time is flying faster in the crypto world .

Haha, I don't know. Seems like only yesterday, but time does indeed move faster here  ;D.

No.

I've never seen a statement more specifically designed to shift blame, cause panic and drive down the price in my life.

They say a picture paints a thousands words, but in this case a thousand words painted a picture that will shape my view of Gox for a long time to come.

Yeah wait until you try to cash out, widthdrawl, or your coins happen to be stolen with your 2 factor enabled and no other ISP logged into your account. I bet you will still love box then. Oh and your supposed 5000 coins you own dropped by almost half their value because of your beloved exchange in the past week.

I am not in the game for $500 or $1000 per coin my friend.  I am willing to lose all of it.  My time horizons are much different.  I plan to sell from $6500 all the way up to $8500.  Thanks for the advice though. ;)

Oh ok that makes more sense good luck widthdrawling your funds if they're 500 or 5000000000 it doesn't matter gox will hold your money either way.

You are awesome!!! I am a retard with so much less :)

Gox has had so many problems over the last year or two and every time they try to shift the blame onto something else instead of admitting that maybe something on their end wasn't up to par.  Enough is enough,  just the simple fact that they still can't even hire enough customer support reps to actually RESPOND to people is really bad and not a company anyone would likely do business with in other industries. Imagine if you called or emailed your bank and they never responded, like literally never responded,  that's gox in many cases and thats just the customer support side of things.


In short,  no one needs to apologize to Gox. Gox has hurt their reputation on their own.

Who keeps over $3million USD in an online bitcoin exchange's wallet.... let alone one with a history of problems and failure to respond. 

I call shenanigans.

You hope your funds are there.  As gox completely cocked up their software and issued the same withdrawals multiple times, it's entirely possible that they don't have enough BTC to cover everyone's investments.  I don't think anyone here is issuing an apology to gox anytime soon, you'll probably see more people calling for a boycott than an apology.  I'd suggest getting as much of your money out of Gox as possible and putting it somewhere safer.  It's best not to keep large sums on any exchanges.

Gox open for withdrawals again?

+1

Gox was supposed to be aware of the possible attack, and should've used better procedure/software before manually resent BTC to a user complaining Tx did'nt go trought !

But anyway, speak bad or good, but speak :)  and I enjoyed every buying opportunity Gox created.  Hope Gox users are'nt too much affected ..

Primarily the reason why people are so upset with Gox is that they have long since used up any goodwill that they may have had in this community as a result of their repeated incompetence and poor business decisions. Historically, they are responsible for aggravating if not creating at least 3 major crashes, found themselves involved in lawsuits with business partners, been the victim of government confiscation for improperly filed forms and been unable to provide cash withdrawals for prolonged periods, which has rendered their services half functional at best. The don't seem up to the challenges of the business they are involved in.

This latest debacle demonstrates their complete lack of professionalism and highlights their inability to respond to challenges in a responsible and appropriate way. Their public statement was designed to absolve them of any personal responsibility for a problem that arose as a result of their ignorance of important properties within the protocol, of which they are supposed to be experts. The real problem however was the overstated and public airing of dirty laundry, which provided every hacker in the world the knowledge required to disrupt the network in a damaging way. The right response would have been to resolve the issue privately with the developers and other exchanges before releasing any information publicly. This would have been the most ethical way to approach the problem and one that would have scored them big points in the community and help to rehabilitate their shattered reputation. Instead the opted for the easy way out and chose to pass the buck, a strategy that only ever serves to damage your reputation.

edit: Oh and to answer the original question, no I don't think that they deserve an apology from the foundation, if anything, I think they owe the community one.

This can't be said enough.  If "your" bitcoins are under someone elses control you have an IOU for bitcoins, not bitcoins.   Bitcoins can't be defaulted on, IOUs can.  Bitcoins can't be blocked, IOU redemption requests can.

This is one reason why BitSimple never holds user bitcoin balances.  I feel Bitcoin is more secure when users take control of their own wealth.  With instant rate lock there, I need liquidity is no excuse anymore.  You can sell Bitcoins directly from your wallet (any wallet) for dollars in seconds.

+1

So many people don't seem to realize that as soon as you send your bitcoins to an "account" or "wallet" where you don't have exclusive control over the private keys (such as MtGox, BitStamp, BTC-E, CoinBase, inputs.io, BitFloor, Bitcoinica, BS&T, etc) they are no longer your bitcoins.  You have voluntarily donated your bitcoins to the entity that controls the private keys, in exchange for a promise from that entity to honor any request you make of them on how you would like them to use what is now their bitcoins.

You have to decide for yourself how much you trust that entity to be able to honor that promise in the future. Whether or not you make such a donation should be based on the level of trust you have for the entity that controls the private keys.  You need to trust that they won't lose the bitcoins to a hardware or software failure.  You need to trust that they will secure the bitcoins against seizure by a government agency. You need to trust that their security practices will be sufficient to prevent theft of the bitcoins. You need to trust that they (or any of their employees, friends, or family) won't steal the bitcoins.

Why does anyone place so much trust in what is typically a pretty anonymous internet entity?  Are they regulated?  Are they audited (have you seen the audit report)? Are they insured?

When such bitcoins eventually become inaccessible, it is important to realize that the fault is two-fold.  Fault for being untrustworthy and criminal certainly resides with the entity that failed to deliver on the promise of accessibility, however fault for failing to adequately measure the trustworthiness resides with the individual for making the poor decision to entrust an untrustworthy entity with delivering on false promises.

I call bullshit on everything you just said.

.

++1
The only bitcoins you own are the ones associated with the private keys you control. Satoshi created for us a trust-less system of money. The moment you trust another entity with your private keys, that all goes away and if those coins are taken there is nothing you can do about it.
This is also true for the many investment scams going on here. If someone wants you to invest in their business or claims to have a way to double your money. You will need to do far more due diligence than a normal investment. There is absolutely no protection for you and if you are ripped off, say goodbye to your money.  The police, the courts, nobody is going to help you; or even understand you.

Yup 99% of scams prey on your greed. Get richer by not being greedy.

Definitely. They were wrong about the bitcoin issues. People who claimed gox was 'full of shit' should definitely apologize!

.

I apologise for not saying they're full of shit yet.  I just said they were incompetent, useless idiots.  But yeah, add 'full of shit' to the list too.

Of course, I also think the idea of them is wrong bitcoin

ufff that must be stressfull....

No, sorry but Gox is to blame for this mess :/.

Gox should apologize to us all.

Sad but true isn't? :)


funny too :)
MtGox issues are so "funny".. erhm

dude the guy tried to shake the very foundation of bitcoin... what kind of sin you expect mk to commit to be persecuted?

Please continue sending your money to Mt. Gox.  Once all of the coins are gone we will no longer have to have these threads.

Not sure why people keep using it.

LOL, my sentiments exactly.

I wouldn't touch it. There are btc on there going for like ~$200 right?

Mild to moderate mental retardation is my guess.

There are no BTC going nowhere for no money, because they aren't allowing that.  Nor a timeframe on when they will.

I know you cant withdraw but you can still buy on gox, no? I was under the impression you could still buy on there.

You could do what, buy bitcoin?  And do what with it?  Leave it sitting in there?

You really want to take $200 of your money, and spend it at Mt. Gox?

Choose the most likely scenario based on history:
-You get BTC cheaper than EVERYONE ELSE
-You somehow get GOXXXED and get nothing for your money

I'll wager you a Sacajawea dollar it will be the latter.

Never said I would buy anything from Gox. I was simply saying that you can still buy from there. Whether you can withdraw in the future, that's a dice roll.

Bitstamp/Coinbase don't have this problem... Fiat withdrawals were also fucked at Gox.

I thought the fiat withdrawals were permitted, when did that change? 

Permitted ≠ Functional; USD withdrawals take 5 Weeks - Forever these days. They don't work properly, and they continue to get worse.

They are still allowed, in theory. However, fiat withdrawals take so much time (at least in USD) that many believe that it is because Mt.Gox are voluntarely delaying them.

Before the withdrawals were blocked, the BTC price was always 10% more on Mt.Gox than on other markets. It was a sign that money didn't flow closely, because if it did, then it'd always follow the other markets closely, people transferring money between exchanges for profit until their price equalized.

Indeed, many believed Gox was insolvent, because it took so long to get money out. Now we either think the same, or feel they are just incompetent.

Indeed... Hope thing will come back to better one day ... soon :)

What happened to the OP?