Bitcoin Forum

Edit again.. meh....


Edit, Best ideas on how to avoid scammers.



I would like to let everyone know about a trade between Virtrom and myself. I have paid 50% of the price for a used 32 GB Touchpad with case. He has received the Bitcoin and will be shipping it to me. Once I have the Touchpad I will send him the remaining amount. I hope this post will help us both get good ratings here for doing bitcoin trades in the future. Thank you.

i have pay him 15 btc for an hp touchpad

the rest of the ammout i want pay after i see it is shipped

he send me a shipping number and mean i must pay now but on that number i see nothing usps say that number is inconcret.

after 6 days he tell me i become no touchpad and he never get my btc back

that man is a scammer the police have all informations.......

What?

Who is Virtrom?  Link to original thread?

He is from this thread.  I send him bitcoin and he said he would have sent me a tracking number and post in this thread by now but he has not.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=47061.msg560544#msg560544

I hope that I did not get scammed....

If this does fail I will post all of our private messages.

Low post count - check
no rep - check
no proof of ownership/shipping - check
previous claim on being a scammer - check

You would be really lucky not being scammed after all that..

He is selling things in other threads. 700$ worth of new egg cards and the like. How does the thread deal with people like this?

I lost 2 BTC to him. Scammers can be so petty.

Paypal is looking outright tame compared to this fraud rate.

Well looks like I got scammed. yeah I dont like Ebay and Paypal but this is not a useable system right now. What is the point of having bitcoins if you cant use them to buy anything?? Is there a better way to sell and buy things? I mine at 7ghz a sec so I have a some money invested in this and I was about to expand. Unless I can see how this is a workable system I think I will get out...

Spending BTC on goods from an unknown merchant is risky without escrow.

One might incorrectly assume that low-ticket items are less of a scam target, but there is so little consequence that thieves will think nothing of taking your pocket change.

Where is this escrow service you are talking about? Thank you.

Clearcoin was a reputable escrow, but they closed up.

MtGox should probably host a site like that, since they seem to be the most trusted Bitcoin-related entity.

The project could also benefit from a market forum with the same ID requirements to sell as MtGox requires for large transactions, to add accountability. Buyers wouldn't need ID, since they're the vulnerable party and are shouldering all the risk during a transaction.

Ha. Got this PM today;

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=47114.0


wirehead, I hope you are joking about MtGox being the most trusted entity...

There are no chargebacks, which means you either need to buy from someone you can trust, or use an escrow. And either an escrow service you can trust, or a trusted person. Exactly the same as cash. It seems like a hassle, but actually it's not. While buying from individuals, trust ratings, forum reputation, etc. are good guides. I've spend more than a thousand BTCs on goods and never got scammed.

really guys?  I run reputable bitcoin businesses you could of sent your bitcoins to but you chose to send money to people you don't know and have no way of getting compensated for? 

People like you are why so many people are getting scammed here.

Maybe a Bitcoin dev can host an escrow service again. They seem to be preoccupied, though.

This really needs to be done.


So what is this business that is so reputable? You website is under construction and no, I wont get involved in anyone related to gambling.













Are there really no good ways to buy goods with bitcoins?  Is this not a huge flaw in the system? I have bitcoins, I want to use them... I cant... Why am I doing this again?

I fixed the profile url's if that is what you are referring to and no they are not under construction a couple are in beta but code complete.

It is helpful that your link now works. Can you point to a thread where people have used this and have commented on it? Should not be hard to do if it is reputable. Also I don't see how this would have helped us. You would have sent him the money before he shipped it to me right? I am I missing something?

I am not inclined to do so, feel free to use the search function.  And I was implying to only do trades with reputable members.

So it seems your service will not help this sorta of thing...   Well thanks for trying to hijack my thread and promote yours. Anyone have any helpful and useful ideas other than http://btcrow.com/ ?

I know you are trying to bash Andrew Bitcoiner, but what you are repeating doesn't make sense. There are several online shops and services that accept Bitcoin for starters. Check out https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade . (EDIT: Check out escrow services there. I've only used ClearCoin but I think using BTCrow is pretty safe if we aren't talking about an extreme amount.)

I have traded with people I know from forums using other methods as well, it's always a risk, especially if the person you're trading with is not known to anyone. If it's bank wire, the buyer takes the risk, if it's paypal it's the seller.

Thanks, I will try BTCrow next time.

Nearly  got done by this idiot,  he slipped up though didn't even know that the gift  cards he was selling had expiration dates on them.

I got a PM from this dude asking me for a loan.

Anyways, this is my guide to not getting scammed.

a) use heatware - it works
b) low/no feedback - have them ship first, if they won't then you won't get scammed
c) profit.

i've only been scammed once in 15 years, off ebay - this guy bullshitted on shipping me a single broken turntable instead of two and by the time it'd gotten to me the 30 day window of paypals retarded policies had passed. i was out $500 bucks, sucked, but i learned a valuable lesson.

http://bitcoinharbor.com (http://bitcoinharbor.com) is marketplace including escrow service, but I have not tested it personaly and there is 5% :o fee.

Glad I didnt jump on those newegg cards, it seemed like too good of a deal to be true.

TyGrr

you tell me im a troll ?

i say this man is a scammer

Virtron
Vampiro

are the same people......

police have all informations.

I said "What?" I never said you are a troll.

Yeah, it turns out he is a scammer and you knew this a while ago yet the members of the forum did not. Did you make a post about him other than after I was scammed? Is there an area where scammers are listed? How can we let people in the future know about this? Im not happy I lost bitcoins on my first ever use for buying them. If this is going to last we need to figure out a reasonable way for people to buy and sell things. Waht is the point of money if we can't use it? Bitcoin should be the best currency option for international trade if not most trade on the internet. However right now its not close to being ready for the average citizen to use.

I have to ask why you chose to send cash to a random stranger when there is no way to get it back if that random stranger rips you off? This is not a problem with cash.

Because there is not a better system in place. Now I m saying we should make one or bitcoins will Become useless. At 3$ maybe it is too late.

TyGrr. It's called common sense. Only trade with people who have cred/rep. If they don't, tell them to ship first. If they won't - you should be happy, you just avoided being scammed.

I really don't see this system (common sense) catching on with the masses. We need something better... Really.

Someone should implement a bitcoin version of heatware. Bitware?

Yes, That is what I am talking about. I would be willing to help with this project. I do not have the programming skills but could help manage it, also help fund it. Anyone interested?

You can't fix stupid. I could care less if an idiot gets scammed tbph.

heatware works just fine, why reinvent the wheel?

I am really starting to think bitcoins will never catch on in a big way...

Moneybookers  now has a escrow service which I think should  be used now for anything over $175

They take bitcoin?

I don't think this "dollar" thing is going to work very well either. Strangers can just rip you off!

That was a comment about people saying that further development was not needed and that "stupid" people should be ripped off. I was trying to get ideas, and even set up a site to help trade, not just smile when "stupid" people get ripped off.

But thank you for reading the thread and posting a helpful reply...

And my comment was in response to you discouraging "stupid" people from becoming not stupid. Building tools to help "stupid" people not get ripped off is only a short-term band-aid. At some point they are just going to have to learn (people USED to be taught this in childhood) how to judge people they are wanting to do business or otherwise interact with.

I didn't say anything of the sort.

There is nothing stopping anyone from walking up to you with a gun and robbing you. I would think that there are obvious steps to avoid being robbed at gun point - some of them being don't go out alone, don't walk down dark alleys, don't use an atm machine on an empty street at night, etc.

There are several great tools available to everyone on this site, including their own brain. You also have some reputable and established feedback/rating systems available. I don't think an escrow/money holder system is very reasonable - after all, just trusting one more person that could rip you off, you're increasing your chances.

No matter where you go you're going to find people who don't care about the law and who will try to rip you off. Doubly so online, the anoymity of the internet and bitcoin just makes it that much of an 'effortless' target. You are not without recourse my friend, if you want to trade with someone, get their phone number, address, ANYTHING that can tie them to the transaction. If they aren't willing to concede, nbd, at least YOU aren't the one being ripped off.

Credit cards found a way to protect stupid people and where did that get them? If bitcoins are going to be for the masses shit needs to get done.

also https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=43441 is the new account of Virtron, this is at least his 3rd account. However we should not ban him, we should just let a new "stupid" bitcoin user get fucked over. Why try to stop scammers? The system is perfect.

You also pay with the use of a credit card - in the form of taxes, fees, fines, and interest. You don't get that protection for free, you pay for it.


It's your job to protect yourself from scammers - nobody elses. The mods can only ban an ip, that will not stop a persistant user from signing up with another fake email account through random russian proxy #3,201,308,832

This is what I was talking about. I could care less if an idiot gets scammed tbph...  Well... I got scammed, am I an Idiot? Some people sent me money for Oolong tea. Where they idiots too? I sent them their tea but they had no way of knowing that I even have the tea they ordered.

I was willing to take a risk. I got scammed, now I am trying to help people trade safely. Why is there so much resistance to this?

As I said in the thread I was willing to donate money/time to help make a new system. To help make bitcoin better...

What exactly are you doing to help again? You've done your part, you've made a thread and a topic.

I really do think this forum needs a sub-forum called trolls where this shit can be discussed at length without crapping the fs/ft section.

Go donate at heatware.com and start using it, it's catching on here as I've used it with several people here and I've noticed people who I haven't traded with using it.

Anyone who doesnt do this checklist is Practically Asking to get scammed. So SuckItUpButterCup.

It's your own damn fault

Challenge excepted

TyGrr, you constantly repeat "I am really starting to think bitcoins will never catch on in a big way" because you can't purchase goods from people with no reputation on an unofficial Bitcoin forum.

Don't get me wrong though, I really got your concern while trying to find a good auction site (Can anyone recommend one of these: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade#Auction_sites). I had used biddingpond last year, and there still isn't anything better and more popular. And last year I was thinking it's too late to make an auction site. This is pretty disappointing.

Also, although #bitcoin-otc is a good reputation system, it didn't step up to become as a standard rating system for Bitcoin. I presume there are other systems available ([PLACE YOUR AD HERE]), but none of them are very standard. We need a standard WoT, because I need to know if "I" should trust a person. Otherwise, even an eBay rating could suffice.


I don't really get why you are resisting to the idea that an escrow service fixes this as much as a credit card company does. BTCrow even has a resolution service.

If you want to protect yourself more, you need to use common sense to measure trustworthiness. The other party needs to be risking more than you are in the case of failure to follow contract. This works for almost all online businesses, and also bidding sites (with seller ratings). For forums, you need to use an external method if the user in question is not someone you know.

Hi, first I apologize for your loss.

Second as some people here mentioned you should use an escrow when you don't trust someone.

There's plenty of services for escrowing payment right now. I'm (BTCrow.com) one of them and I'm also the only one which offer a fair resolution service which rely on proof.

I already managed a lot of disputes and everyone who used our services where happy with it. See our feedback on the site.

If you or anybody have more questions about my escrow service I'll be more than happy to answer it here.

Thanks
Jules

That's NOT what you came here with originally. And frankly there's absolutely no resistance to helping people trade safely. EVERYONE here supports it. The reason you're getting so much "resistance" is because that's not what you're doing. So stop and think carefully about what you're doing before you do anything else.

+1

Wow, this experience has been educational that is for sure. Thank you all.

I understand how the raped girl who speaks up feels.  She says something, everyone else say, it was her fault.

I got fucked over, I told people to watch out. I got many thank yous in PMs when I told people he was a scammer.

I still don't see why a rating system is such a bad idea. But okay, you all win... Next time I see a scammer I will not tell anyone.

Good luck and clearly don't be an idiot!

No, rape is a violent crime. The fact that you compare yourself to a rape victim makes me want to smash your head in like a rotten cantaloupe, you fuckwit.

I hope you die of AIDS after being pounded like a side of beef by some 400lb gangster.

Seriously....you are a gaping asshole with a piece of shit dangling from it.

Yeah, that's one of the reasons rape is such a traumatic experience. The guilt associated with the victim. I agree that it's a terrible thing but the reason it's a bad analogy is because you are somewhat considered "guilty" because of your rhetoric about it, not the act itself. Think about it.


I don't recall anyone saying a rating system is a bad idea. All recommendations involved forum reputation, which is a kind of rating. It's not very straightforward because you have to be the one who puts weights on post count, date of registration, post history, etc.

We have all the tools we need. We have rating systems. They only need to be put to use. I support your argument fully, but instead of just saying it needs to be done, let's begin to evaluate current solutions and support the ones that have merit.

Phone number? ID? Reference checks?  ??? ??? ???

That defeats the whole purpose of staying anonymous if I just want 25btc, if your dealing in $5,000/$10,000 then yes you need that information or at least a escrow that is trust-able and backed my serious capital.

Why don't people use moneybooker's new escrow service? I see that as a good choice and I'll use it if I ever make big deals as protection.

Also what's to stop a trusted member making another account and scamming? In any grey market area like this, know your source, demand quality, and don't let your guard down.

Some of the best & trusted members of selling boards become scammers so in the end you just have to be careful all the time

Please do tell us about scammers when you see them. However, just telling us to be careful and to implement systems that already exist doesn't help anyone. If this information isn't readily available, perhaps we need a new sticky. Make a thread compiling all the scam prevention techniques mentioned throughout the forum and I'd be happy to sticky it.

Leave the threads identifying a scammer to just that: identifying the scammer. Burying this information in these threads just makes the problem worse, not better.

Try the forums on my sig..

very good. hopefully you can get a bit more traffic to that place. i bookmarket it.

I have never tried this but it seems silk road has everything needed to make a decent market place. anon, escrow, rating system, only bitcoins.

anyone every used this for selling goods? i thought it was only for drugs but it seems its not.

TyGrr -

I frequent the Silk Road site on TOR (just browsing -- NOT buying lol).

A few key differences between most auction / sales sites and Silk Road:

-They have a buy in for sellers on the site. You cannot just create a free seller account and start selling. The current cost is about US$125. This is a pretty good filter to stop scammers.

-They do use escrow and also have hedged escrow (to protect you from currency fluctuations)

-There are non drug items listed on the site -- firearms, ammo, porn, electronics and some other items. Be warned: non drug items (such as XBox360's and the like) are more than likely stolen and being sold through the site.

-The SR forums are very active and lively. Scammers and potential scammers are ferreted out quickly by the community. There have been several instances where someone had a high rep then suddenly decided (perhaps due to personal issues I don't know) to stop shipping items as quickly. They were marked as scammer and had to rebuild their rep.

-Finally, some sellers accept Liberty Reserve in addition to Bitcoin.

Since I have yet to purchase anything through SR I cannot comment on delivery, customer service, payments and ratings.

I see, well, it seems that this is the site with the highest traffic that takes bitcoins, at least that I know of. It is a shame that the buy in to sell good, even legal goods is so high.

Do you happen to know if mining equipment is being sold? Thanks.

yeah, there is definitely mining equipment being sold on tSR...

I will have to check it out, thanks

I suspect "bitleaker"  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=43590 is Virtron's 3rd new account. How can I notify an admin to let them know? Or is that not done here?

Erm, why would you suspect that? And why did you ask if I had any touchpads for sale in a PM?

For the record, I'm not Virtron (though admittedly Virtron would say that). I'm using my home IP (which is fairly static) - to which I'm sure an admin can verify.

I will not be selling any items for bitcoins, as I do not trust BTC's for such transactions. Nor do I own any site that uses BTC's and nor do I have any plans to build such sites.

Beyond that, I'm as anonymous as you are on these forums. I'm just an early adopter/miner/trader.

;)

Yes, really early...

So you still think I'm this Virtron person? In that case, even though I have absolutely no proof, I believe that you are Satoshi.  ::)

I think you might be a bit retarded. Your retardation might explain why you fell for such obvious scams with this Virtron. Whatever...  :-*

The sad part of all this is, they will let you stay. Oh well.

I should hope so. However, I have reported you for your accusations. Hopefully a mod or admin can come in and prove that I am not this person who you think I am.

Now I'm really intreagued as to why you should pick a random new user like myself and accuse them without offering any evidence to back up your suspicions? I've checked this other person's posts, and we have completely different writing styles. I come from a domestic UK ISP, and I think I've had the same IP address for 6+ months.

So tell me, apart from your mental illness suggesting I am Virtron, what other 'evidence' do you have?

I own the VPN you as using. I now know your home address...

:D :D :D ;D ::)

Please tell me more.

lol

lol:) i was just kidding, you are an okay guy. pleace all, trade with this dumbass American

An 'American' who writes in British English, and who comes from a British domestic IP address? An 'American' who has stated that he has no interest in selling anything for BTC's?

 ::)

I knew the bitcoin community had it's fair share of delusional paranoid nutters, but you are really a shining example of insanity.

lol

I'm a nutter alright.

JFC tygerr, stop crapping up the board with your baseless accusations and paranoia.

are you 13?

Did you actually have some evidence?

nope, he is clean! I was just making this all up for the fun of it...   I am in fact 13....

In that case, goodbye!