Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin => Bitcoin Discussion => Topic started by: cm68jd on October 08, 2011, 11:25:47 PM



Title: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: cm68jd on October 08, 2011, 11:25:47 PM
Bitcoin ATMs are the killer app for bitcoin. Everything about ATMs make sense. You can spend the next 100 years convincing thousands of businesses to accept bitcoin or you can spend 1 week and put an ATM in a city and now every merchant indirectly accepts bitcoin. It indirectly opens up bitcoin to people who won't be accepting bitcoin in this decade no matter what (poor taxi drivers, poor street vendors, etc). It also will make using bitcoin realistic for immigrants in developed countries who send money back home.

Bang for the buck, nothing beats an ATM in driving adoption and making bitcoins useful. So, why aren't the big players (mtgox, tradehill, etc) or existing ATM franchise owners getting behind bitcoin ATMs? I know about Todd Bethell, but his Web site pretty much seems dead. It seems like a lot more interest would be around ATMs instead of yet another exchange site, another classified listing site, etc.

What am I missing about ATMs? Is there anything besides Todd investigating this?


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: ParrotyBit on October 08, 2011, 11:32:45 PM
Mt. Gox and Tradehill might be big fish in the Bitcoin world, but it's a small pond in here. Developing and deploying ATMs is pretty expensive, and I don't think Bitcoin has any backers large enough for this at the moment. If anything, they'd have to partner with CoinStar or a similar customizable kiosk device that deals in vouchers instead of cash at first.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: DeathAndTaxes on October 08, 2011, 11:33:40 PM
ATM are expensive. 0.000000000000000000000000001% of population uses bitcoins.

ATM are regional.  Nobody drives 280 miles to go to any ATM.  They service a very small area (i.e. people within 5 miles).  Bitcoin adoption is so low that there aren't that many users in a 5 mile radius.  Are you going to spend $100K to build, setup, and service a machine for the 12 bitcoin users in the 5 mile radius?


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: danman87 on October 08, 2011, 11:44:19 PM
What if the ATM was your computer and you could just print a Bitcoin Bill? The bill would include a barcode and a set denomination unique to you?


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: giszmo on October 08, 2011, 11:50:15 PM
i don't get the point of an ATM tbh.
What would you suppose it to do?
Deal out fiat money I assume.
How would it work?
I send coins from my smartphone to the address in the display and retrieve fiat money?

As the others said, such a machine is expensive. This service can also be done by normal exchange bureaus. With the capability of cashing in the coins at the other end of the world, this could also be done where you now have western union or moneygram shops.

Before this is achieved big style with thousands of such shops accepting bitcoin, I doubt anybody would bother constructing a machine for it. Sure it would generate more hype around bitcoin but the investment would be too high for a first step.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: cruikshank on October 08, 2011, 11:56:33 PM
Smart phones are pretty much a bitcoin ATM of sorts. Normal ATMs really only work when you need to get something that is physical in nature. Also no driving and finding one needed.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: DeathAndTaxes on October 09, 2011, 12:23:45 AM
Smart phones are pretty much a bitcoin ATM of sorts. Normal ATMs really only work when you need to get something that is physical in nature. Also no driving and finding one needed.

I think the idea of bitcoin ATM is fiat cash -> bitcoin and bitcoin -> fiat cash.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: slush on October 09, 2011, 01:13:03 AM
I think credit card backed by bitcoins is smarter idea than ATMs at this moment. Then you can pay directly anywhere in local currency and you'll be charged with custom market price for BTC. Unfortunately talking with credit card companies is pretty hard, too (although it's more doable than ATMs).


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: Red Emerald on October 09, 2011, 01:20:01 AM
I think credit card backed by bitcoins is smarter idea than ATMs at this moment. Then you can pay directly anywhere in local currency and you'll be charged with custom market price for BTC. Unfortunately talking with credit card companies is pretty hard, too (although it's more doable than ATMs).

+1 to this.  Getting a CC company to accept bitcoin sounds way more difficult than getting a merchant to though.  Although someone could trade prepaid credit cards for bitcoin and then the CC company wouldn't be that involved


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: Andrew Bitcoiner on October 09, 2011, 01:48:04 AM
Bitcoin ATMs are the killer app for bitcoin.

This is 100% wrong.  ATM's are going to go the way of the pay phone much sooner and much faster then most people realize.  Think smartphones, not ATM's.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: worldinacoin on October 09, 2011, 01:50:30 AM
I feel that everyone Android, Iphone, Ipad, notebook etc can be an ATM for bitcoin, it is not as restrictive as cash, we should be developing on that aspect rather than to emulate the existing systems.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: btcinstant on October 09, 2011, 03:51:33 AM
I think credit card backed by bitcoins is smarter idea than ATMs at this moment. Then you can pay directly anywhere in local currency and you'll be charged with custom market price for BTC. Unfortunately talking with credit card companies is pretty hard, too (although it's more doable than ATMs).

I couldn't agree more. I haven't had a chance to post a thread on my new service yet (tomorrow) http://www.btcinstant.com  but this is exactly what it plans to do.  :)


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: btcinstant on October 09, 2011, 03:52:41 AM
I think credit card backed by bitcoins is smarter idea than ATMs at this moment. Then you can pay directly anywhere in local currency and you'll be charged with custom market price for BTC. Unfortunately talking with credit card companies is pretty hard, too (although it's more doable than ATMs).

+1 to this.  Getting a CC company to accept bitcoin sounds way more difficult than getting a merchant to though.  Although someone could trade prepaid credit cards for bitcoin and then the CC company wouldn't be that involved

Read reply above ^^ it's coming!


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: Gabi on October 09, 2011, 08:26:37 AM
I find the ATMs a good idea. They allow you to buy bitcoins very easily and without troubles. Buying them now imply using an exchange, send money to another banks, set up accounts etc etc... i am pretty sure this discourage a lot of people.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: cruikshank on October 09, 2011, 08:55:17 AM
I find the ATMs a good idea. They allow you to buy bitcoins very easily and without troubles. Buying them now imply using an exchange, send money to another banks, set up accounts etc etc... i am pretty sure this discourage a lot of people.

With two smart phones, easy enough to exchange cash for bitcoins/bitcoins for cash with someone. Eliminates the up-front cost of an ATM and the operational costs. Also eliminates the problem of thieves putting a skimming device on the ATM.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: cm68jd on October 10, 2011, 07:33:38 PM
ATM are expensive. 0.000000000000000000000000001% of population uses bitcoins.

That is actually not an issue. A bitcoin ATM is not specific to bitcoin. Instead, it functions as a normal ATM (which is quite profitable) and also allows the exchange of bitcoins to local currency for an added fee.

So, a bitcoin ATM is an ATM with the added profit of serving the needs of bitcoin users. Also, you might be surprised how many people in mexico would love to go to the bitcoin ATM instead of dealing with western union.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: cm68jd on October 10, 2011, 07:36:02 PM
I think credit card backed by bitcoins is smarter idea than ATMs at this moment. Then you can pay directly anywhere in local currency and you'll be charged with custom market price for BTC. Unfortunately talking with credit card companies is pretty hard, too (although it's more doable than ATMs).

I agree, this would be a killer app similar to a bitcoin ATM. The great thing about this idea and bitcoin ATMs  is it does not require the buy-in of merchants.

No matter how you want to slice it, it is easier to install ATMs or do a CC backed by bitcoin than convincing the worlds 10 millions businesses to accept bitcoins and teaching them about crypto, QR codes, and other things they do not care about.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: cm68jd on October 10, 2011, 07:37:51 PM
I find the ATMs a good idea. They allow you to buy bitcoins very easily and without troubles. Buying them now imply using an exchange, send money to another banks, set up accounts etc etc... i am pretty sure this discourage a lot of people.

With two smart phones, easy enough to exchange cash for bitcoins/bitcoins for cash with someone. Eliminates the up-front cost of an ATM and the operational costs. Also eliminates the problem of thieves putting a skimming device on the ATM.

Yeah, thats great. Except, Chili's, McDonalds, etc does not accept bitcoin. And, when an immigrant sends money back home that bitcoin does not help them buy groceries. What you need is an ATM that allows you to exchange bitcoin to fiat currency locally.

The day you can get Wal-Mart to accept bitcoin you have a point. But, until then, the fiat currency I pull out of the ATM using my bitcoin can be accepted by Wal-Mart.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: ParrotyBit on October 10, 2011, 07:45:28 PM
With two smart phones, easy enough to exchange cash for bitcoins/bitcoins for cash with someone. Eliminates the up-front cost of an ATM and the operational costs. Also eliminates the problem of thieves putting a skimming device on the ATM.

I don't want to be the person standing around in a McDonalds holding up my smartphone shouting "Bitcoins! Bitcoins! Get your Bitcoins!" for hours just so I can buy some fries.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: cm68jd on October 10, 2011, 07:45:44 PM
Mt. Gox and Tradehill might be big fish in the Bitcoin world, but it's a small pond in here. Developing and deploying ATMs is pretty expensive, and I don't think Bitcoin has any backers large enough for this at the moment. If anything, they'd have to partner with CoinStar or a similar customizable kiosk device that deals in vouchers instead of cash at first.

Yeah, I agree. The capital expenditure of 10,000 ATMs is large. However, mtgox or tradehill could develop a custom ATM with the help of one of the manufacturers that has a bitcoin module. This is similar to what Todd is doing I believe. The cost of this I assume would be $20-50k, which is a few days revenue for mtgox.

From there, they can franchise the ATMs, which is a pretty normal practice in the ATM world. So, instead of mtgox buying 10,000 ATMs at $5,000 a pop, 1,000 franchisers do. Hell, they can even sell it to existing ATM franchise owners. There really is not a downside for ATM owners as a bitcoin ATM will generate as much profit as a normal ATM + bitcoin profits.

MtGox can benefit because they can collect franchise and exchange fees (for when people deposit fiat money for bitcoins in the ATM). In addition, it would help their exchange business by giving them thousands of points to make exchange transactions.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: Gabi on October 10, 2011, 07:53:43 PM
I find the ATMs a good idea. They allow you to buy bitcoins very easily and without troubles. Buying them now imply using an exchange, send money to another banks, set up accounts etc etc... i am pretty sure this discourage a lot of people.

With two smart phones, easy enough to exchange cash for bitcoins/bitcoins for cash with someone. Eliminates the up-front cost of an ATM and the operational costs. Also eliminates the problem of thieves putting a skimming device on the ATM.
True but you have to find and meet someone, while with an ATM you just go and buy bitcoins...


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: cruikshank on October 10, 2011, 09:50:59 PM
ATMs often have fees with their use. Bitcoins are not suppose to have any fees, that is what is suppose to be superior to them above using a credit card or an ATM. At least with a person to person exchange, a fee can be waived.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: DeathAndTaxes on October 10, 2011, 09:56:44 PM
ATMs often have fees with their use. Bitcoins are not suppose to have any fees, that is what is suppose to be superior to them above using a credit card or an ATM. At least with a person to person exchange, a fee can be waived.

Who says bitcoin is supposed to have no fees?  This is an unrealistic and naive goal.  People are going to build exchanges, and software, and hardware, and ATM for free.  Just for the love of their fellow man.

Mt Gox currently charges fees (so does every other exchange) so do most bitcoin pools, so do most bitcoin shopping carts.  Bitcoin isn't socialism.  The goal of bitcoin is decentralization which allows free market to compete and price products  and services without monopolies (aka VISA, paypal, WU, etc).  Bitcoin isn't going to be free.

Someday what/who do you think is going to pay for the hashing network which protects bitcoin?  Hint: TRANSACTIONS FEES!


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: cm68jd on October 10, 2011, 10:25:22 PM
ATMs often have fees with their use. Bitcoins are not suppose to have any fees, that is what is suppose to be superior to them above using a credit card or an ATM. At least with a person to person exchange, a fee can be waived.

Actually, bitcoins are supposed to have fees. Fees are built right into the client. Miners will reject certain transactions unless they have fees and as the bitcoin mining lottery gets halved and the exchange rate continues to go down miners will require even more fees in order to continue to secure the network. In addition, this has nothing to do with bitcoin, but a service that utilizes bitcoin, which means it is up to the business owners and the consumers to decide what is appropriate as far as fees go.



Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: Jonathan Ryan Owens on October 11, 2011, 01:15:38 AM
Everyone,

My partner and I spent a week with Todd Bethell, developing the Bitcoin ATM platform from the ground up on a Kiosk in his garage. He's a big dreamer for sure, and is also unfortunately misguided. He had no technical understanding of how Bitcoin works, and was purely ideologically driven in regards to what he saw as the potential market size. What I saw as a prototype / proof of concept / 'cool bleeding edge, fun project', he saw as the answer to the economic ills of the world.

When we met Todd, we found his hard line Libertarian ideals endearing. When we parted ways, unpaid for services rendered, I felt differently. He'd spoken of Dustin and others as his big Bitcoin investors. Unfortunately, that money never materialized, and instead of dealing with us in an upfront and honest way, he instead insulted our work, competence, demanded that we sign a non compete agreement, and even went so far as to report me to the Bitcoin Police, while also calling me and Eric 'fraudsters' and 'scammers' to others. The offline wallet system listed on his site is my IP, as is the implementation description and backend services which we already coded for the Vanity addresses. Yeah, I'm the scammer and thief. *cough*.

So, when Todd didn't pay us, we pulled the kill switch on the software. Perhaps we should have just let him have it for free? What would you have done?

I think there is a really good lesson here for many of you in the Bitcoin community to learn. Bitcoin is very young, and the market size is nowhere near where it needs to be for brick and mortar solutions to be realistic.

Mr. Bitcoiner and others have made very valid points as to the coming obsolescence of ATMs. Bitcoin ATMs will almost certainly never find a mass market.

200 Bitcoin Kiosks @ $4000 / unit + Software, Monthly Support, Security, On Site Maintenance = Not Viable

video of the Bitcoin ATM in debug mode: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2tikxtviqQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2tikxtviqQ)

So.. You want to know why his site is dead? It's because the economic issues that the have been raised here are incredibly valid. The idea of 200 "Bitcoin ATMs" (really, Kiosks) being deployed worldwide is hilariously unrealistic and naive.

Frankly my experience with the fly-by-night operators in Bitcoin has left me with such a bad taste in my mouth that I prefer to only work in a vacuum, and do my best to just keep to myself. So many of you are liars, thieves and crooks, dishonest businessmen, and frankly, just outright criminals, that it's not all that surprising that Bitcoin has been suffering from an image problem.

I'm tired of being libeled. I'm one of the few people actively working on the building blocks of the Bitcoin economy while so many others are outwardly projecting their own insecurities about themselves by way of calling others scammers and fraudsters. I have never seen such a thing anywhere else. The ratio of of Bitcoiners who have psychiatric disorders relative to the general population has got to be massive.

TL:DR

Bitcoin ATMs will never come to market. By the time Bitcoin gets to the size necessary for their viability, smartphones and other POS solutions will exist. On the surface, Bitcoin ATMs seem like a good idea, but they are financial black holes.

-Jonathan


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: someotherguy on October 11, 2011, 02:42:55 AM
Well said Jonathan.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: cm68jd on October 19, 2011, 05:38:30 PM
I still do not understand how an ATM can be a financial blackhole. Normal ATMs make money. Why would a normal ATM that also deals with bitcoin suddenly lose money? If anything it should be more profitable than a normal ATM.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: giszmo on October 19, 2011, 06:48:20 PM
Normal ATMs make money.

Opposed to this very common misunderstanding, ATMs actually *don't* print money.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: Elwar on October 19, 2011, 07:36:10 PM
The best thing that a Bitcoin ATM can do is solve the fiat currency -> bitcoin problem.

Right now, you have to take your bank money and send transfer it to some third party and wait for about a week. Then your money gets sent to an exchange where you can then exchange it for Bitcoins. You can then send from there to your wallet.

With an ATM. Take your cash, insert it into the machine, transfer Bitcoin to your wallet.

MtGox makes it slightly easier though. Now you can go to a Chase bank, fill out a deposit slip with all of the right info. Deposit the money, then get the Bitcoin in your account, then you can send it to your wallet.

Though, in reality, you are basically trading currencies. If I want to trade my USD for EUR, it takes a few steps.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: danman87 on October 19, 2011, 07:39:48 PM
If I want to trade my USD for EUR, it takes a few steps.

Like, drive to the airport?


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: cypherdoc on October 19, 2011, 08:50:31 PM
Everyone,

My partner and I spent a week with Todd Bethell, developing the Bitcoin ATM platform from the ground up on a Kiosk in his garage. He's a big dreamer for sure, and is also unfortunately misguided. He had no technical understanding of how Bitcoin works, and was purely ideologically driven in regards to what he saw as the potential market size. What I saw as a prototype / proof of concept / 'cool bleeding edge, fun project', he saw as the answer to the economic ills of the world.

When we met Todd, we found his hard line Libertarian ideals endearing. When we parted ways, unpaid for services rendered, I felt differently. He'd spoken of Dustin and others as his big Bitcoin investors. Unfortunately, that money never materialized, and instead of dealing with us in an upfront and honest way, he instead insulted our work, competence, demanded that we sign a non compete agreement, and even went so far as to report me to the Bitcoin Police, while also calling me and Eric 'fraudsters' and 'scammers' to others. The offline wallet system listed on his site is my IP, as is the implementation description and backend services which we already coded for the Vanity addresses. Yeah, I'm the scammer and thief. *cough*.

So, when Todd didn't pay us, we pulled the kill switch on the software. Perhaps we should have just let him have it for free? What would you have done?

I think there is a really good lesson here for many of you in the Bitcoin community to learn. Bitcoin is very young, and the market size is nowhere near where it needs to be for brick and mortar solutions to be realistic.

Mr. Bitcoiner and others have made very valid points as to the coming obsolescence of ATMs. Bitcoin ATMs will almost certainly never find a mass market.

200 Bitcoin Kiosks @ $4000 / unit + Software, Monthly Support, Security, On Site Maintenance = Not Viable

video of the Bitcoin ATM in debug mode: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2tikxtviqQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2tikxtviqQ)

So.. You want to know why his site is dead? It's because the economic issues that the have been raised here are incredibly valid. The idea of 200 "Bitcoin ATMs" (really, Kiosks) being deployed worldwide is hilariously unrealistic and naive.

Frankly my experience with the fly-by-night operators in Bitcoin has left me with such a bad taste in my mouth that I prefer to only work in a vacuum, and do my best to just keep to myself. So many of you are liars, thieves and crooks, dishonest businessmen, and frankly, just outright criminals, that it's not all that surprising that Bitcoin has been suffering from an image problem.

I'm tired of being libeled. I'm one of the few people actively working on the building blocks of the Bitcoin economy while so many others are outwardly projecting their own insecurities about themselves by way of calling others scammers and fraudsters. I have never seen such a thing anywhere else. The ratio of of Bitcoiners who have psychiatric disorders relative to the general population has got to be massive.

TL:DR

Bitcoin ATMs will never come to market. By the time Bitcoin gets to the size necessary for their viability, smartphones and other POS solutions will exist. On the surface, Bitcoin ATMs seem like a good idea, but they are financial black holes.

-Jonathan

very interesting.  i have no reason to doubt your experience here.  out of curiosity, are you positive about Bitcoin's future?  is Eric, Eric Brigham?


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: saethan on October 19, 2011, 09:20:24 PM
Bitcoins will always suffer from the fact you need a few confirmations to be sure your transfer is going to stay in the chain, so they are not as 'instant' as other forms of electronic payment.

Unfortunately unless you trust some central authority(as you do when you use a bank, or a credit card, or... MtGox), this delay is needed.

Also, ATMs - how many people actually use these regularly?  I'm just using my debit card to grab physical cash... okay... if I'm doing a legal transaction with that cash, it's much easier to actually -use the debit card- for that transaction. 

I use cash to like, pay the kid next door to mow my lawn.  Which if you get into the little details probably isn't actually legal.  :P


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: Jonathan Ryan Owens on October 25, 2011, 02:14:12 AM
Quote
very interesting.  i have no reason to doubt your experience here.  out of curiosity, are you positive about Bitcoin's future?  is Eric, Eric Brigham?

The implementation of Bitcoin is what I am most fascinated by. Because I came into Bitcoin as a Miner, I have a different appreciation of a unit of value. I didn't purchase my first bitcoins, I mined them. I played poker with them, and I never used MtGox until I was working on the Bitcoin ATM. In other words, though there was an abstract notion in my head about their value, based on what I read the exchange value was, I thought more about Bitcoins having a cumulative value, rather than a dollar pegged value.

So, am I positive about Bitcoin's future?

100%

Am I positive about Bitcoin currently? Why?

Yes and No. There are three main types in Bitcoin: Miners, Programmers & Speculators. Speculators have proven that they can drive the network, where Bitcoins produced are redeemable for units of Fiat. This project is the first of its kind, and will not be the last. What an exceptional experiment. Many of us have learned about Cryptography, Parallel Processing and Money Science. Freaking awesome! Many others who are here are out of work, and are dusting off useful skills that can and should be put to work in the broader workplace. What an awesome way to brush up!

I don't like the infighting, the polarized nature of this forum, and I really hope that those who are feeling paranoid thoughts, delusions of grandeur and unhealthy hatred towards Bitcoin or people in these forums, please seek help. Go outside, meet people in real life, stop feeling sorry for yourselves. STOP tying your value of your self, and your skills to the value of Bitcoin.

This is the moment in time that distinguishes the winners from the losers. Bitcoin and its variants are far from dead, and the weak hands of the main 3 spokes that support the wheel, the Miners, the Programmers and the Speculators, they are being shaken out of the tree.

ATM's will never work. I know how to make them work in a real world scenario, but it requires a larger user base. Chicken and the egg. There is no window of certainty out to 12 months with Bitcoin, so bringing in the required investment to build out is highly unlikely. It's a dangerous gamble.

There are many things that need to happen before you'll be seeing Bitcoin ATMs. It makes about as much sense as a Gold ATM.

We need to focus on POS, online merchant services, and market liquidity / exchange options before anything like the Bitcoin ATM can succeed beyond a moderately reported press release and niche market adoption. There's no money in it as an operator. I promise. Perhaps someone could sell leases for Bitcoin ATMs with software pre loaded, and could integrate a cash recycler device to lower service costs, and then perhaps they could go a step further and franchise the opportunity, and provide the required compliance officers, and AML documentation processing, you know.. back end administration.

Then go find 50 people willing to pay for their territory, and who are also willing to pay 500-750 a month to have a purpose built kiosk.

The company / group that succeeds will still be heavily subsidizing marketing and back end costs for many, many quarters to come.

-Jonathan



Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: cypherdoc on October 25, 2011, 02:27:54 AM
Quote
very interesting.  i have no reason to doubt your experience here.  out of curiosity, are you positive about Bitcoin's future?  is Eric, Eric Brigham?

The implementation of Bitcoin is what I am most fascinated by. Because I came into Bitcoin as a Miner, I have a different appreciation of a unit of value. I didn't purchase my first bitcoins, I mined them. I played poker with them, and I never used MtGox until I was working on the Bitcoin ATM. In other words, though there was an abstract notion in my head about their value, based on what I read the exchange value was, I thought more about Bitcoins having a cumulative value, rather than a dollar pegged value.

So, am I positive about Bitcoin's future?

100%

Am I positive about Bitcoin currently? Why?

Yes and No. There are three main types in Bitcoin: Miners, Programmers & Speculators. Speculators have proven that they can drive the network, where Bitcoins produced are redeemable for units of Fiat. This project is the first of its kind, and will not be the last. What an exceptional experiment. Many of us have learned about Cryptography, Parallel Processing and Money Science. Freaking awesome! Many others who are here are out of work, and are dusting off useful skills that can and should be put to work in the broader workplace. What an awesome way to brush up!

I don't like the infighting, the polarized nature of this forum, and I really hope that those who are feeling paranoid thoughts, delusions of grandeur and unhealthy hatred towards Bitcoin or people in these forums, please seek help. Go outside, meet people in real life, stop feeling sorry for yourselves. STOP tying your value of your self, and your skills to the value of Bitcoin.

This is the moment in time that distinguishes the winners from the losers. Bitcoin and its variants are far from dead, and the weak hands of the main 3 spokes that support the wheel, the Miners, the Programmers and the Speculators, they are being shaken out of the tree.

ATM's will never work. I know how to make them work in a real world scenario, but it requires a larger user base. Chicken and the egg. There is no window of certainty out to 12 months with Bitcoin, so bringing in the required investment to build out is highly unlikely. It's a dangerous gamble.

There are many things that need to happen before you'll be seeing Bitcoin ATMs. It makes about as much sense as a Gold ATM.

We need to focus on POS, online merchant services, and market liquidity / exchange options before anything like the Bitcoin ATM can succeed beyond a moderately reported press release and niche market adoption. There's no money in it as an operator. I promise. Perhaps someone could sell leases for Bitcoin ATMs with software pre loaded, and could integrate a cash recycler device to lower service costs, and then perhaps they could go a step further and franchise the opportunity, and provide the required compliance officers, and AML documentation processing, you know.. back end administration.

Then go find 50 people willing to pay for their territory, and who are also willing to pay 500-750 a month to have a purpose built kiosk.

The company / group that succeeds will still be heavily subsidizing marketing and back end costs for many, many quarters to come.

-Jonathan



thanks Jonathan.  that was very helpful and insightful.  i had to ask b/c i saw that you were shorting BTC.

you missed a fourth category and that is true investors like myself.  i'm a non-coder but firm supporter of BTC since the Spring.  i think i understand the nexus btwn the project and the monetary system but have been surprised at the wild volatility.  i believe that we will come out of this just fine as the the wild eyed speculators are indeed shaken out.

i easily see that you are right about ATM's.  i was shocked to hear what you said about Todd Bethell.  he made it sound like he understood Bitcoin and had some sophistication regarding the technology and how it interfaces with the real monetary system.   apparently not.  too bad for him and it sounds like he  has lost alot of money.  i also think he had money at MyBitcoin which is unfortunate.  even i was smart enough to learn how to create an offline wallet and store my Bitcoins there. 

what i think we're seeing is a washout of these weak hands. long term i am very bullish and will give the project 10 yrs minimum.  if it goes to zero before then well i guess i lose big time.  but i seriously don't think so.  there's just too much here and the blockchain marches on.

best of luck in your endeavors and i look forward to the time when you stop shorting Bitcoin and go long from positive feedback.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: Jonathan Ryan Owens on October 26, 2011, 12:35:24 AM
Quote
thanks Jonathan.  that was very helpful and insightful.  i had to ask b/c i saw that you were shorting BTC.

you missed a fourth category and that is true investors like myself.  i'm a non-coder but firm supporter of BTC since the Spring.  i think i understand the nexus btwn the project and the monetary system but have been surprised at the wild volatility.  i believe that we will come out of this just fine as the the wild eyed speculators are indeed shaken out.

i easily see that you are right about ATM's.  i was shocked to hear what you said about Todd Bethell.  he made it sound like he understood Bitcoin and had some sophistication regarding the technology and how it interfaces with the real monetary system.   apparently not.  too bad for him and it sounds like he  has lost alot of money.  i also think he had money at MyBitcoin which is unfortunate.  even i was smart enough to learn how to create an offline wallet and store my Bitcoins there. 

what i think we're seeing is a washout of these weak hands. long term i am very bullish and will give the project 10 yrs minimum.  if it goes to zero before then well i guess i lose big time.  but i seriously don't think so.  there's just too much here and the blockchain marches on.

best of luck in your endeavors and i look forward to the time when you stop shorting Bitcoin and go long from positive feedback.

Going short BTC is my way of helping its value go up. Again, I'm a contrarian bear. I want Bitcoin to succeed, but I also need to preserve my sanity during high volatility and negativity.

I didn't mean to say anything shocking about Mr. Bethell, really. In his defense, I think he's more sophisticated than 80%+ of the current BTC users, and I think he was trying hard to understand and learn as he went along. He's a blind bull, and the rally in July to $30+ made him a very confident one at that. Unfortunately he also fell into the same trap that many in this community have found themselves in, namely one of arrogance and delusions of grandeur. These are the weakest hands, and I have seen in the past 2 weeks that the previously bullish and overly optimistic in the community are mostly being replaced by rational actors. This is great.

I recently considered diverting some of my development resources to building and releasing an open source, native desktop application with the ActiveX control hardware integration needed to function with 80% of existing hardware bill collectors and receipt printers.

If this is of interest to any developers and hobbyists, let me know. I'll state again as fair warning: you will not get rich with a Bitcoin ATM, but you could put a business on the map, and gain some geek cred. I'd be willing to put some resources towards the effort, as long as others are actually interested.

Regards,
Jonathan


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: Etlase2 on October 26, 2011, 12:53:52 AM
Frankly my experience with the fly-by-night operators in Bitcoin has left me with such a bad taste in my mouth that I prefer to only work in a vacuum, and do my best to just keep to myself. So many of you are liars, thieves and crooks, dishonest businessmen, and frankly, just outright criminals, that it's not all that surprising that Bitcoin has been suffering from an image problem.

D'ya think that this might have something to do with how bitcoin is a pyramid-disguised currency? A large portion of the people around here are interested only in money for nothing, thanks to the O Holy Creator, He That Shall Remain Anonymous.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: Jonathan Ryan Owens on October 26, 2011, 01:07:26 AM
Frankly my experience with the fly-by-night operators in Bitcoin has left me with such a bad taste in my mouth that I prefer to only work in a vacuum, and do my best to just keep to myself. So many of you are liars, thieves and crooks, dishonest businessmen, and frankly, just outright criminals, that it's not all that surprising that Bitcoin has been suffering from an image problem.

D'ya think that this might have something to do with how bitcoin is a pyramid-disguised currency? A large portion of the people around here are interested only in money for nothing, thanks to the O Holy Creator, He That Shall Remain Anonymous.

It has to do with the fact that a large portion of society in general are interested only in money for nothing. Why limit your scope of opinion to Bitcoin? I've met plenty of crooks every field I've ever worked in. I will agree that early miners are a large part of why more sophisticated investors are (rightfully) reticent to use Bitcoin as a predictable store of value, where Bitcoins minted early on that are in cold storage can scalp anyone and everyone at a moments notice.

Part of my glee at seeing the price crash, and in seeing large volumes of coins coming out of cold storage, was that these coins are more and more being spread more evenly among a larger user base. This is absolutely required for Bitcoin or any other block chain cryptocurrency to succeed long term. No serious investor will consider it anything BUT a pyramid when there are a very few that control a very large (even if not actively traded / used) portion of the tradable units.

-Jonathan


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: jimbobway on October 26, 2011, 04:04:27 AM
I have also worked with Mr. Bethell and have remained quite.  But, I will speak up my thoughts.  I believe it is still possible to make a profit on Bitcoin ATM, but one needs a solid business plan.  The plan presented by Mr. Bethell has some flaws, IMHO.

People sell video game machines for $10K+ and these machines profit over time.  An ATM is about $5K.  If it can pull in $15 profit a day it would take a year to pay off.  Maybe year and a half.  After that it would all be profit.  The Bitcoin ATM is more like a three year investment and you won't see profit until many years (assuming there is actually some demand which I think there is.)

It would take a lot of dedication and planning to make a successful Bitcoin ATM business.  I can see people wanting to create one for fun, like Johnathan said, for geek cred.

Mt. Gox offers deposits at Chase bank now with a little paperwork, so that is more competition for the Bitcoin ATM.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: crawdaddy on October 26, 2011, 12:53:23 PM
I have also worked with Mr. Bethell and have remained quite.  But, I will speak up my thoughts.  I believe it is still possible to make a profit on Bitcoin ATM, but one needs a solid business plan.  The plan presented by Mr. Bethell has some flaws, IMHO.

People sell video game machines for $10K+ and these machines profit over time.  An ATM is about $5K.  If it can pull in $15 profit a day it would take a year to pay off.  Maybe year and a half.  After that it would all be profit.  The Bitcoin ATM is more like a three year investment and you won't see profit until many years (assuming there is actually some demand which I think there is.)

It would take a lot of dedication and planning to make a successful Bitcoin ATM business.  I can see people wanting to create one for fun, like Johnathan said, for geek cred.

Mt. Gox offers deposits at Chase bank now with a little paperwork, so that is more competition for the Bitcoin ATM.

Didn't he what to provide Fiat services as well at the ATMs? If so, there is you profit. I worked at a gas station in the South while going to college and people there still use ATMs a lot, so it depends on your market area. But you would have to start with a 200 mile radius from you business location (maintenance, money transport issues, etc.) and that's it, until you reached that 200 ATM mark. After the 200 mark you would be forced to expand. I think if a business that has Bitcon/fiat accepting POS units with merchant accounts,  bitcoin ATMs (bitcoin/debt accepting ATMs) could just be a add in to a small retail shop and could be quite profitable.

I saw the flaws in Mr. Bethell's idea when i first watched the videos about the ATM. It sounded like he didn't understand that there is maintenance on these machines, among other things.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: crawdaddy on October 27, 2011, 03:36:31 PM
Everyone,

My partner and I spent a week with Todd Bethell, developing the Bitcoin ATM platform from the ground up on a Kiosk in his garage. He's a big dreamer for sure, and is also unfortunately misguided. He had no technical understanding of how Bitcoin works, and was purely ideologically driven in regards to what he saw as the potential market size. What I saw as a prototype / proof of concept / 'cool bleeding edge, fun project', he saw as the answer to the economic ills of the world.

When we met Todd, we found his hard line Libertarian ideals endearing. When we parted ways, unpaid for services rendered, I felt differently. He'd spoken of Dustin and others as his big Bitcoin investors. Unfortunately, that money never materialized, and instead of dealing with us in an upfront and honest way, he instead insulted our work, competence, demanded that we sign a non compete agreement, and even went so far as to report me to the Bitcoin Police, while also calling me and Eric 'fraudsters' and 'scammers' to others. The offline wallet system listed on his site is my IP, as is the implementation description and backend services which we already coded for the Vanity addresses. Yeah, I'm the scammer and thief. *cough*.

So, when Todd didn't pay us, we pulled the kill switch on the software. Perhaps we should have just let him have it for free? What would you have done?

I think there is a really good lesson here for many of you in the Bitcoin community to learn. Bitcoin is very young, and the market size is nowhere near where it needs to be for brick and mortar solutions to be realistic.

Mr. Bitcoiner and others have made very valid points as to the coming obsolescence of ATMs. Bitcoin ATMs will almost certainly never find a mass market.

200 Bitcoin Kiosks @ $4000 / unit + Software, Monthly Support, Security, On Site Maintenance = Not Viable

video of the Bitcoin ATM in debug mode: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2tikxtviqQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2tikxtviqQ)

So.. You want to know why his site is dead? It's because the economic issues that the have been raised here are incredibly valid. The idea of 200 "Bitcoin ATMs" (really, Kiosks) being deployed worldwide is hilariously unrealistic and naive.

Frankly my experience with the fly-by-night operators in Bitcoin has left me with such a bad taste in my mouth that I prefer to only work in a vacuum, and do my best to just keep to myself. So many of you are liars, thieves and crooks, dishonest businessmen, and frankly, just outright criminals, that it's not all that surprising that Bitcoin has been suffering from an image problem.

I'm tired of being libeled. I'm one of the few people actively working on the building blocks of the Bitcoin economy while so many others are outwardly projecting their own insecurities about themselves by way of calling others scammers and fraudsters. I have never seen such a thing anywhere else. The ratio of of Bitcoiners who have psychiatric disorders relative to the general population has got to be massive.

TL:DR

Bitcoin ATMs will never come to market. By the time Bitcoin gets to the size necessary for their viability, smartphones and other POS solutions will exist. On the surface, Bitcoin ATMs seem like a good idea, but they are financial black holes.

-Jonathan


How far did you all get in producing the software?


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: Tuxavant on October 27, 2011, 03:58:47 PM
I think Bitcoin ATMs in Las Vegas strip clubs could be a hit and do a lot for the economy... And just imagine all the hot girls getting sexy QRCode tattoos on their asses. The could be the new Tramp Stamp!


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: jimbobway on October 27, 2011, 04:55:11 PM
I have also worked with Mr. Bethell and have remained quite.  But, I will speak up my thoughts.  I believe it is still possible to make a profit on Bitcoin ATM, but one needs a solid business plan.  The plan presented by Mr. Bethell has some flaws, IMHO.

People sell video game machines for $10K+ and these machines profit over time.  An ATM is about $5K.  If it can pull in $15 profit a day it would take a year to pay off.  Maybe year and a half.  After that it would all be profit.  The Bitcoin ATM is more like a three year investment and you won't see profit until many years (assuming there is actually some demand which I think there is.)

It would take a lot of dedication and planning to make a successful Bitcoin ATM business.  I can see people wanting to create one for fun, like Johnathan said, for geek cred.

Mt. Gox offers deposits at Chase bank now with a little paperwork, so that is more competition for the Bitcoin ATM.

Didn't he what to provide Fiat services as well at the ATMs? If so, there is you profit. I worked at a gas station in the South while going to college and people there still use ATMs a lot, so it depends on your market area. But you would have to start with a 200 mile radius from you business location (maintenance, money transport issues, etc.) and that's it, until you reached that 200 ATM mark. After the 200 mark you would be forced to expand. I think if a business that has Bitcon/fiat accepting POS units with merchant accounts,  bitcoin ATMs (bitcoin/debt accepting ATMs) could just be a add in to a small retail shop and could be quite profitable.

I saw the flaws in Mr. Bethell's idea when i first watched the videos about the ATM. It sounded like he didn't understand that there is maintenance on these machines, among other things.

I think your idea to combine a normal ATM with bitcoin is the best business plan.  What is even better is if you could work with an existing ATM maker to modify the software to provide bitcoin transactions.  Then it would just be a matter of upgrading the software without buying new hardware.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: Jonathan Ryan Owens on October 27, 2011, 08:13:46 PM
How far did you all get in producing the software?

We had a working prototype in just under 7 days. Had there not been a falling out (and had we been paid), our next step would have been to develop a native application in Qt or VS with a more robust administrative back end (reporting, end of day reports, etc).

The idea of integrating into existing ATMs is probably not as realistic as some of you might think.

Going after Kiosk software providers may be a good way to go, because they already have the installed hardware base, but then again, there's nothing keeping them from cutting you out and just developing the software modules themselves, and providing that to their kiosk network without you.

This is a fundamental problem with the Bitcoin ATM concept. Frankly, if you're successful at deploying a few of them, it's only a matter of weeks before a bigger dog takes the idea and totally destroys your business.

The other problem is that as is, any Bitcoin ATM would be leveraging an ad-hoc network of services, with no central platform for record keeping, atomicity or reliable liquidity.

-Jonathan


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: jimbobway on October 27, 2011, 08:40:18 PM
How far did you all get in producing the software?

We had a working prototype in just under 7 days. Had there not been a falling out (and had we been paid), our next step would have been to develop a native application in Qt or VS with a more robust administrative back end (reporting, end of day reports, etc).

The idea of integrating into existing ATMs is probably not as realistic as some of you might think.

Going after Kiosk software providers may be a good way to go, because they already have the installed hardware base, but then again, there's nothing keeping them from cutting you out and just developing the software modules themselves, and providing that to their kiosk network without you.

This is a fundamental problem with the Bitcoin ATM concept. Frankly, if you're successful at deploying a few of them, it's only a matter of weeks before a bigger dog takes the idea and totally destroys your business.

The other problem is that as is, any Bitcoin ATM would be leveraging an ad-hoc network of services, with no central platform for record keeping, atomicity or reliable liquidity.

-Jonathan

BitcoinATM is indeed a big risk if you did it yourself.  If I went after kiosk software providers and they cut me out I would be cool with it because it would strengthen the bitcoin economy.  But I understand people want to profit too which is fine.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: SgtSpike on October 27, 2011, 08:56:37 PM
Everyone,

My partner and I spent a week with Todd Bethell, developing the Bitcoin ATM platform from the ground up on a Kiosk in his garage. He's a big dreamer for sure, and is also unfortunately misguided. He had no technical understanding of how Bitcoin works, and was purely ideologically driven in regards to what he saw as the potential market size. What I saw as a prototype / proof of concept / 'cool bleeding edge, fun project', he saw as the answer to the economic ills of the world.

When we met Todd, we found his hard line Libertarian ideals endearing. When we parted ways, unpaid for services rendered, I felt differently. He'd spoken of Dustin and others as his big Bitcoin investors. Unfortunately, that money never materialized, and instead of dealing with us in an upfront and honest way, he instead insulted our work, competence, demanded that we sign a non compete agreement, and even went so far as to report me to the Bitcoin Police, while also calling me and Eric 'fraudsters' and 'scammers' to others. The offline wallet system listed on his site is my IP, as is the implementation description and backend services which we already coded for the Vanity addresses. Yeah, I'm the scammer and thief. *cough*.

So, when Todd didn't pay us, we pulled the kill switch on the software. Perhaps we should have just let him have it for free? What would you have done?

I think there is a really good lesson here for many of you in the Bitcoin community to learn. Bitcoin is very young, and the market size is nowhere near where it needs to be for brick and mortar solutions to be realistic.

Mr. Bitcoiner and others have made very valid points as to the coming obsolescence of ATMs. Bitcoin ATMs will almost certainly never find a mass market.

200 Bitcoin Kiosks @ $4000 / unit + Software, Monthly Support, Security, On Site Maintenance = Not Viable

video of the Bitcoin ATM in debug mode: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2tikxtviqQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2tikxtviqQ)

So.. You want to know why his site is dead? It's because the economic issues that the have been raised here are incredibly valid. The idea of 200 "Bitcoin ATMs" (really, Kiosks) being deployed worldwide is hilariously unrealistic and naive.

Frankly my experience with the fly-by-night operators in Bitcoin has left me with such a bad taste in my mouth that I prefer to only work in a vacuum, and do my best to just keep to myself. So many of you are liars, thieves and crooks, dishonest businessmen, and frankly, just outright criminals, that it's not all that surprising that Bitcoin has been suffering from an image problem.

I'm tired of being libeled. I'm one of the few people actively working on the building blocks of the Bitcoin economy while so many others are outwardly projecting their own insecurities about themselves by way of calling others scammers and fraudsters. I have never seen such a thing anywhere else. The ratio of of Bitcoiners who have psychiatric disorders relative to the general population has got to be massive.

TL:DR

Bitcoin ATMs will never come to market. By the time Bitcoin gets to the size necessary for their viability, smartphones and other POS solutions will exist. On the surface, Bitcoin ATMs seem like a good idea, but they are financial black holes.

-Jonathan
I really like what you've said here Jonathan, and I agree wholeheartedly.  I just couldn't help pointing out the above and laughing at it!


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: jimbobway on October 27, 2011, 09:12:56 PM
I'm playing the good guy here and I want to point out that there are some good people here that are involved in bitcoin who are not thieves, crooks, liars, or criminals.  It's too bad some/(many) people have to ruin it for everyone else.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: SgtSpike on October 27, 2011, 09:44:09 PM
I'm playing the good guy here and I want to point out that there are some good people here that are involved in bitcoin who are not thieves, crooks, liars, or criminals.  It's too bad some/(many) people have to ruin it for everyone else.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/002/063/arguecat.png?1266810790


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: toddbethell on December 11, 2011, 10:57:16 PM
It is because the internet never forgets that I reluctantly revive this dead thread.

Bitcoin ATM is a California registered C corperation AND IS AGAIN actively seeking partners, developers, licensees and accredited investors. Announcments will be made soon on more appropriate threads and www.bitcoinATM.com (http://www.bitcoinATM.com).

The company has ‘gone dark’ in recent months for none of the reasons talked about in this thread. To date there has been approximately $35,000 invested solely by the founder. The loss of 1000btc by the ‘MyBitcoin’ theft was an untimely psychological blow. Bitcoin ATM’s largest ‘bitcoin investor’ had terms that none of his bitcoins could be sold for less than $11. Therefore it is primarily the drop in bitcoin prices from $14 to $2 that has made the runway, in almost any palatable scenario, to short. Another important component of delays was an equity dispute with Jared Turner, the chairman of Play N Trade. A settlement document (with modest financial consideration) includes wording that we never say anything bad about the situation or each other’s companies or characters.

The reason I did not go public sooner is because Jonathan Ryan Owens and Eric Lombrozo were tangled up in that dispute. I am not obligated to lay down and allow a destroyer like Jonathan Ryan Owens to harm my family. Fortunately, since Play N Trade, along with many others is also one of his victims, I don’t have to live with that mistake. I have decided to implement what I have coined ‘The Readen Offense’.

Jonathan Ryan Owens is a scam artists far worse than a petty thief because of his gift for sweet tasting rhetorical poison that vandalizes the soul. He should not have supposed that my absence from the forums meant that I did not have the goods on him! Jonathan just couldn’t stand the deafening silence of those who refuse to help him ‘simulate the illusion of rationality by entering into debates where adhononyms are not just his last argument but his first’. Video recordings, emails, text messages, the Bitcoinduit code, the names and phone numbers of his accomplices and victims will be published wherever they may be found (at least those who don’t request anonimity).
When Jonathan first came to me he said “Eric and I will help you because you have a nice family”. I should have thrown him out right then. Having recently read “Atlas Shrugged” I can’t believe I did not recognize ‘the leper’s bell of an approaching looter’! Oh, and by the way, I did not call the Bitcoin Police on him, they called me. And it was not a “DDoS attack” on Aug 25th that took down bitcoinduit.com, his gambling/ponzi scheme site. It was just me trying to gain access to ATM.co set up on the same server  the day he started work on Bitcoin ATM for the express purpose of defrauding me. Why, oh why, did I not throw him out when I witnessed him cheating his players by manipulating the game.

Oh yes, many more ‘whac-a-mole’ examples of Jonathan Ryan Owens bad behavior to come. Wherever he or his accomplices, real or fake supporters, may pop up.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: cypherdoc on December 12, 2011, 02:18:06 AM
actually i'm not surprised.  you should witness his behavior on the Speculation Forum.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: PrintCoins on December 12, 2011, 07:15:35 PM
I think the simplest setup would be a bitcoin dispensing machine.

You put in dollars, and it will send bitcoins to you.

Hook up a dollar acceptor (these can be purchased for little on ebay) to a cheap computer.

From there, you can either print out a receipt with a private key on it pre-funded with bitcoins, or if you want to get fancy, you can set up a camera to read a QR code off of a phone, and fund that address.

The whole rig could be set up for less than 1000 dollars. I would recommend getting a little fancier, and including a decent touch screen, which would be able to show you how to set up your phone to receive bitcoins.

To make development really simple, I would say, set up php on the machine, and operate a web browser in full screen mode on a touch screen. This way you could play videos, and do buttons, and even issue command line commands to bitcoind using the interface.

This should be set up in a place of business so the security on the machine could be minimal. It won't dispense cash (otherwise every person that sees it will try to get the money out). Also the machine should only have a limited amount of bitcoins on it at a time since hackers will try to attack it.

Basically it would be a machine designed around converting new users to bitcoin.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: teflone on December 12, 2011, 07:35:09 PM
It is because the internet never forgets that I reluctantly revive this dead thread.

Bitcoin ATM is a California registered C corperation AND IS AGAIN actively seeking partners, developers, licensees and accredited investors. Announcments will be made soon on more appropriate threads and www.bitcoinATM.com (http://www.bitcoinATM.com).

The company has ‘gone dark’ in recent months for none of the reasons talked about in this thread. To date there has been approximately $35,000 invested solely by the founder. The loss of 1000btc by the ‘MyBitcoin’ theft was an untimely psychological blow. Bitcoin ATM’s largest ‘bitcoin investor’ had terms that none of his bitcoins could be sold for less than $11. Therefore it is primarily the drop in bitcoin prices from $14 to $2 that has made the runway, in almost any palatable scenario, to short. Another important component of delays was an equity dispute with Jared Turner, the chairman of Play N Trade. A settlement document (with modest financial consideration) includes wording that we never say anything bad about the situation or each other’s companies or characters.

The reason I did not go public sooner is because Jonathan Ryan Owens and Eric Lombrozo were tangled up in that dispute. I am not obligated to lay down and allow a destroyer like Jonathan Ryan Owens to harm my family. Fortunately, since Play N Trade, along with many others is also one of his victims, I don’t have to live with that mistake. I have decided to implement what I have coined ‘The Readen Offense’.

Jonathan Ryan Owens is a scam artists far worse than a petty thief because of his gift for sweet tasting rhetorical poison that vandalizes the soul. He should not have supposed that my absence from the forums meant that I did not have the goods on him! Jonathan just couldn’t stand the deafening silence of those who refuse to help him ‘simulate the illusion of rationality by entering into debates where adhononyms are not just his last argument but his first’. Video recordings, emails, text messages, the Bitcoinduit code, the names and phone numbers of his accomplices and victims will be published wherever they may be found (at least those who don’t request anonimity).
When Jonathan first came to me he said “Eric and I will help you because you have a nice family”. I should have thrown him out right then. Having recently read “Atlas Shrugged” I can’t believe I did not recognize ‘the leper’s bell of an approaching looter’! Oh, and by the way, I did not call the Bitcoin Police on him, they called me. And it was not a “DDoS attack” on Aug 25th that took down bitcoinduit.com, his gambling/ponzi scheme site. It was just me trying to gain access to ATM.co set up on the same server  the day he started work on Bitcoin ATM for the express purpose of defrauding me. Why, oh why, did I not throw him out when I witnessed him cheating his players by manipulating the game.

Oh yes, many more ‘whac-a-mole’ examples of Jonathan Ryan Owens bad behavior to come. Wherever he or his accomplices, real or fake supporters, may pop up.

Love this!
Finally someone that dosent have their blinders on.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: cypherdoc on December 12, 2011, 08:51:38 PM
Todd,

you do know that he trashed you thoroughly in another thread a coupla months ago?


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: Harvey on December 12, 2011, 08:57:54 PM
Never before have I seen so much self-importance and energy invested in a innovation so over-engineered and so impractical. Some of you will ask "What do you think is better?"

I rather leave that to be addressed all in good time.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: ineededausername on December 20, 2011, 04:05:15 AM
Why, oh why, did I not throw him out when I witnessed him cheating his players by manipulating the game.

O.o

please do tell a story, sir.  Are you, by any chance, related to bit-tired?


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: Jonathan Ryan Owens on December 20, 2011, 04:18:40 AM
Quote
The company has ‘gone dark’ in recent months for none of the reasons talked about in this thread. To date there has been approximately $35,000 invested solely by the founder. The loss of 1000btc by the ‘MyBitcoin’ theft was an untimely psychological blow. Bitcoin ATM’s largest ‘bitcoin investor’ had terms that none of his bitcoins could be sold for less than $11. Therefore it is primarily the drop in bitcoin prices from $14 to $2 that has made the runway, in almost any palatable scenario, to short. Another important component of delays was an equity dispute with Jared Turner, the chairman of Play N Trade. A settlement document (with modest financial consideration) includes wording that we never say anything bad about the situation or each other’s companies or characters.

Sorry to hear about your troubles, Todd.

Quote
The reason I did not go public sooner is because Jonathan Ryan Owens and Eric Lombrozo were tangled up in that dispute. I am not obligated to lay down and allow a destroyer like Jonathan Ryan Owens to harm my family. Fortunately, since Play N Trade, along with many others is also one of his victims, I don’t have to live with that mistake. I have decided to implement what I have coined ‘The Readen Offense’.

Did I victimize Play N Trade? How so? You realize that when Jared helped Eric and me out, it was for a loan to cover our expenses after you completely lost your mind, and that I've been in contact with Jared throughout, right? You further understand that at no point have I ever been on bad terms with him, right?

Quote
Jonathan Ryan Owens is a scam artists far worse than a petty thief because of his gift for sweet tasting rhetorical poison that vandalizes the soul. He should not have supposed that my absence from the forums meant that I did not have the goods on him! Jonathan just couldn’t stand the deafening silence of those who refuse to help him ‘simulate the illusion of rationality by entering into debates where adhononyms are not just his last argument but his first’. Video recordings, emails, text messages, the Bitcoinduit code, the names and phone numbers of his accomplices and victims will be published wherever they may be found (at least those who don’t request anonimity).
When Jonathan first came to me he said “Eric and I will help you because you have a nice family”. I should have thrown him out right then. Having recently read “Atlas Shrugged” I can’t believe I did not recognize ‘the leper’s bell of an approaching looter’! Oh, and by the way, I did not call the Bitcoin Police on him, they called me. And it was not a “DDoS attack” on Aug 25th that took down bitcoinduit.com, his gambling/ponzi scheme site. It was just me trying to gain access to ATM.co set up on the same server  the day he started work on Bitcoin ATM for the express purpose of defrauding me. Why, oh why, did I not throw him out when I witnessed him cheating his players by manipulating the game.

xD

Todd, you're completely and utterly insane. When I talked to Jared in mid October, he was livid at your actions and suggested to me that I please take you to court regarding the unpaid work that Eric and I did. Do you also remember that your 'equity dispute' with Jared had to do with your withholding of his Bitcoins which you embezzled, and which Jared was about to call the SDPD on you for to file a criminal complaint? Do you realize that Jared let you off the hook very lightly when you forced him to sign your papers in exchange for his Bitcoins back? Do you further realize that Jared lost thousands of dollars because you were holding his coins, and that you are still technically criminally liable for your actions?

You have the goods on me do you? Go for it, Todd. I'm not a scam artist. However, YOU most certainly are.

Further, your admission of a DDoS attack on August 25 is enough for a criminal complaint. You do realize that, right?

I did like your family, and I liked you. Then you ripped Eric and I off, so we kept the code. Period. You want to continue the debate, then lets do it in person, or in court. Which do you prefer?

Quote
Oh yes, many more ‘whac-a-mole’ examples of Jonathan Ryan Owens bad behavior to come. Wherever he or his accomplices, real or fake supporters, may pop up.

Nice to make your acquaintance, bit-tired.

-Jonathan


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: TT on December 20, 2011, 05:12:32 AM
For the record, Jonathan and I put in many long hours getting his ATM machine working, often staying very
late nights at his place toiling away. Not only that - Jonathan found him a video production crew to document
his company and also found him a booth at a show after Todd soured his relationship with Play N Trade who
had offered him a retail location in which to debut his ATM.

We had an agreement...he was going to pay us cash for our work and he would get to keep the source code.
Well, he didn't come through on his side - we successfully got his machine working and got him a forum in which
to present it and promote it but he failed to pay us what he owed us. Not only that, the whole time we were there
he was secretly recording us and videotaping us...and acting generally paranoid...and seemed to have a rather
unstable personality.

Todd got upset at Jonathan because Jonathan had the nerve to tell Todd to his face how he felt about his creepy
ways...and I believe both of us had reason to be upset for the fact that he had failed to come through on his
side of the arrangement and trying to claim that he would pay less than he had originally said...and even admitted
that he knew it was more than he was saying it was.

So we both walked out of his garage. He still kept every single line of source code,
but despite his obsession for adding all sorts of superficial features, he didn't seem to want to give much priority
to ensuring the basic functionality was stable...nor to really understand how to even do as much as start the app.
If he wasn't able to figure out how to get the app running once we left it was only because he never even bothered
to ask us how to configure it and set it up.

Seeing that it was highly unlikely he would ever pay the full amount he owed us, I later even offered him that I'd
show him everything he needed to get it working again for less than half of what he owed...and that we'd consider
it a done deal. Well...he flaked, claiming that he was going to have some russian relatives redo the software instead.

Jonathan and I were nothing but nice to Todd until it became apparent that he was someone with which it was impossible
to do business. I regret that it had to end like that, but that's the story.

Just wanted to set the record straight.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: Jonathan Ryan Owens on December 20, 2011, 09:46:05 AM
Open letter to Todd,

I was introduced to you through Jared Turner of PlayNTrade. I remember him talking about you, and the numerous warnings that you weren't "normal" in any sense of the word. He insisted that I'd just "understand" when I met you. As you'll recall, Jared brought Eric and I in to meet you and check out the Bitcoin ATM, and you were against a rock and a hard place. Remember? Jim the Bitcoin Blogger had been working with you to develop the Bitcoin ATM v1. Though I don't know the whole story, the pieces that I heard were as follows:

1. You promised Jim something that you didn't deliver on

2. Jim disabled your software for either non payment, or because you didn't adhere to the agreement you'd reached with him. This was a warning sign.

3. When we met, you quickly offered up the world, dangling the carrot of "ownership" in the BitcoinATM idea to both Eric and myself.

4. I told you straight away that equity was off the table, that neither I or Eric had any interest in ownership.

5. We agreed on a fee to completion. We had 6 days to rebuild the software to run BitcoinATM.

6. On day 2, you had a conversation with Jared at PlayNTrade, and had a falling out.

7. The day after, a friday, I drove up to San Clemente to meet with Jared and ask him whether he wanted your device in his store.

8. It was readily apparent that Jared was uncomfortable with the reality of a Bitcoin ATM in his place of business. There are probably a number of reasons.
a. No defined ownership on his part, even though he paid for half of the Kiosk.
b. No registered corporation, no money services business license either State or Federal
c. Grey area legal status of Bitcoin itself
d. Lack of legal structure, opinion or adequate legal representation
e. No funding
f. Lack of popular interest in the Bitcoin concept i.e. too early

9. I previewed the BitcoinATM video / interview from digivid media, (you know - the one which had interview questions that I prepared for the interviewer to ask you) to Jared et al on a trip to san clemente, trying to get him excited toward BitcoinATM being in his place of business (playNtrade). However you were still "negotiating". Jared felt 50% was fair for his name, experience and his internal and personal resources to be put on your project.

You were LUCKY to have someone who knew your nature be so nice. He was offering up 50% for his and his resources time to get BitcoinATM in as many locations as possible.

10. Half way through (4 days) I was concerned that you weren't going to pay us on completion. You insisted that you were in negotiations with Jared, but he made it perfectly clear that you'd alienated him, and that you were acting in a very imbalanced way. I concurred. As it stood at that point, Jared told me to press on, and let me know that he'd pay me if you didn't.

11. I found "Cool As Ever Tech Show" and got you to sign up. It was a good place to showcase our work, and your BitcoinATM. As you'll recall, the video crew showed up there, too.

12. The stress of working with you caused me to start having panic attacks, which triggered my latent heart condition, supra ventricular tachycardia. I had to go to the hospital and everything. I came over the next day to pick up our check, and that's when we had our confrontation. You lead with your power move - i.e. you presented both Eric and I with a non compete agreement which, according to you, would have to be signed in order for you to pay Eric and I what amounted to a small token of our agreed upon price.

13. We left and blacklisted your IP, and changed all passwords.

Todd, you tried to rip us off. As you already stated above, you tried to infiltrate our web host to take software which was not legally yours. It was wholly your intention from the beginning to do exactly what you did, as evidenced by your previous forays working with Jim the Bitcoin Blogger. He's too nice, and doesn't want to make waves, but I tell you, sir, you have not made anyone who's met you personally believe that you are sane, or worthy of trust.

You never paid for the work, Todd, and you alienated both myself, Eric and Jared at playNtrade. You blame everyone else for your problems, and when people try to step up (like I tried to) to help you, you always find a way to manipulate and lie your way into negative relationships. I knew something was wrong when your daughter, Maria, came into the garage and told both Eric and myself "you're my daddies slaves. you work for him. he's better than you."

Eric and I both looked at each other with concerned looks.

Further, from day 2 both Eric and I were aware that you were obviously recording and possibly keylogging. Completely aware, Todd. Still, I was on the Todd boat, and figured that you had a good reason (?) to be so paranoid. As we went on, your complete ignorance of how Bitcoin actually works, and your half baked Libertarian oddness started to paint a clearer picture of who you are, Todd. You hold an MBA and went through the whole program at UCI alone, because nobody would let you be in their group. You got forcibly removed and put in jail for coming back to campus after the dean told you that your lifetime auditing privileges were revoked because of suspicious and offensive behavior toward students and faculty.

Todd, I got involved because I fucking LOVE Bitcoin, and we were SO EXCITED to get involved in what we thought would be a really cool project. We followed through and did so despite your constant badgering, interference and steady supply of soul crushing jabs, arrogance and unpredictable behavior. We followed through and made it happen in 6 days, sir. You have been without software for months now, with no end in sight. You never needed 35k for Bitcoin ATM, sir, you only needed a good heart, some humility and a community spirit which you have demonstrated a marked lack of.

I felt such empathy for your Bitcoin love and need of assistance, and wanted to see you succeed. You broke my heart, Todd.

Best to you and yours, sir.

-Jonathan

[Edit]

One thing to note: Residing on the BitcoinATM Kiosk is every bit of source code that he'd need to run the BitcoinATM right now. We simply turned off the remote host, webserver, which we had to use because Todd provided no internal development resources, servers or networking management. He's had the software the whole time, but doesn't know how to run a LAMP stack.

You didn't need to try to hack into atmco.in, Todd. You only had to set up a webserver on the machine, which we'd have happily shown you, but you didn't want to pay us, and you tried to strong arm and manipulate us, so we walked.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: Monster Tent on March 25, 2013, 09:29:30 AM
Open letter to Todd,

I was introduced to you through Jared Turner of PlayNTrade. I remember him talking about you, and the numerous warnings that you weren't "normal" in any sense of the word. He insisted that I'd just "understand" when I met you. As you'll recall, Jared brought Eric and I in to meet you and check out the Bitcoin ATM, and you were against a rock and a hard place. Remember? Jim the Bitcoin Blogger had been working with you to develop the Bitcoin ATM v1. Though I don't know the whole story, the pieces that I heard were as follows:

1. You promised Jim something that you didn't deliver on

2. Jim disabled your software for either non payment, or because you didn't adhere to the agreement you'd reached with him. This was a warning sign.

3. When we met, you quickly offered up the world, dangling the carrot of "ownership" in the BitcoinATM idea to both Eric and myself.

4. I told you straight away that equity was off the table, that neither I or Eric had any interest in ownership.

5. We agreed on a fee to completion. We had 6 days to rebuild the software to run BitcoinATM.

6. On day 2, you had a conversation with Jared at PlayNTrade, and had a falling out.

7. The day after, a friday, I drove up to San Clemente to meet with Jared and ask him whether he wanted your device in his store.

8. It was readily apparent that Jared was uncomfortable with the reality of a Bitcoin ATM in his place of business. There are probably a number of reasons.
a. No defined ownership on his part, even though he paid for half of the Kiosk.
b. No registered corporation, no money services business license either State or Federal
c. Grey area legal status of Bitcoin itself
d. Lack of legal structure, opinion or adequate legal representation
e. No funding
f. Lack of popular interest in the Bitcoin concept i.e. too early

9. I previewed the BitcoinATM video / interview from digivid media, (you know - the one which had interview questions that I prepared for the interviewer to ask you) to Jared et al on a trip to san clemente, trying to get him excited toward BitcoinATM being in his place of business (playNtrade). However you were still "negotiating". Jared felt 50% was fair for his name, experience and his internal and personal resources to be put on your project.

You were LUCKY to have someone who knew your nature be so nice. He was offering up 50% for his and his resources time to get BitcoinATM in as many locations as possible.

10. Half way through (4 days) I was concerned that you weren't going to pay us on completion. You insisted that you were in negotiations with Jared, but he made it perfectly clear that you'd alienated him, and that you were acting in a very imbalanced way. I concurred. As it stood at that point, Jared told me to press on, and let me know that he'd pay me if you didn't.

11. I found "Cool As Ever Tech Show" and got you to sign up. It was a good place to showcase our work, and your BitcoinATM. As you'll recall, the video crew showed up there, too.

12. The stress of working with you caused me to start having panic attacks, which triggered my latent heart condition, supra ventricular tachycardia. I had to go to the hospital and everything. I came over the next day to pick up our check, and that's when we had our confrontation. You lead with your power move - i.e. you presented both Eric and I with a non compete agreement which, according to you, would have to be signed in order for you to pay Eric and I what amounted to a small token of our agreed upon price.

13. We left and blacklisted your IP, and changed all passwords.

Todd, you tried to rip us off. As you already stated above, you tried to infiltrate our web host to take software which was not legally yours. It was wholly your intention from the beginning to do exactly what you did, as evidenced by your previous forays working with Jim the Bitcoin Blogger. He's too nice, and doesn't want to make waves, but I tell you, sir, you have not made anyone who's met you personally believe that you are sane, or worthy of trust.

You never paid for the work, Todd, and you alienated both myself, Eric and Jared at playNtrade. You blame everyone else for your problems, and when people try to step up (like I tried to) to help you, you always find a way to manipulate and lie your way into negative relationships. I knew something was wrong when your daughter, Maria, came into the garage and told both Eric and myself "you're my daddies slaves. you work for him. he's better than you."

Eric and I both looked at each other with concerned looks.

Further, from day 2 both Eric and I were aware that you were obviously recording and possibly keylogging. Completely aware, Todd. Still, I was on the Todd boat, and figured that you had a good reason (?) to be so paranoid. As we went on, your complete ignorance of how Bitcoin actually works, and your half baked Libertarian oddness started to paint a clearer picture of who you are, Todd. You hold an MBA and went through the whole program at UCI alone, because nobody would let you be in their group. You got forcibly removed and put in jail for coming back to campus after the dean told you that your lifetime auditing privileges were revoked because of suspicious and offensive behavior toward students and faculty.

Todd, I got involved because I fucking LOVE Bitcoin, and we were SO EXCITED to get involved in what we thought would be a really cool project. We followed through and did so despite your constant badgering, interference and steady supply of soul crushing jabs, arrogance and unpredictable behavior. We followed through and made it happen in 6 days, sir. You have been without software for months now, with no end in sight. You never needed 35k for Bitcoin ATM, sir, you only needed a good heart, some humility and a community spirit which you have demonstrated a marked lack of.

I felt such empathy for your Bitcoin love and need of assistance, and wanted to see you succeed. You broke my heart, Todd.

Best to you and yours, sir.

-Jonathan

[Edit]

One thing to note: Residing on the BitcoinATM Kiosk is every bit of source code that he'd need to run the BitcoinATM right now. We simply turned off the remote host, webserver, which we had to use because Todd provided no internal development resources, servers or networking management. He's had the software the whole time, but doesn't know how to run a LAMP stack.

You didn't need to try to hack into atmco.in, Todd. You only had to set up a webserver on the machine, which we'd have happily shown you, but you didn't want to pay us, and you tried to strong arm and manipulate us, so we walked.


Too bad you stole thousands of bitcoins off "investors' in the ringcoin ponzi scheme.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: TheOnly1 on March 29, 2014, 04:21:50 PM
We are glad to announce first permanent Bitcoin ATM of Switzerland!
It is an Lamassu ATM and it is locatet in downtown Zurich, in Cafe Schoffel, Schoffelgasse 7, 8001 Zurich.

Cafe Schoffel also is accepting Bitcoins (As one of the first Restaurants in Switzerland).

Please drop in, when you are in Zurich.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: DreadIsBack on September 02, 2014, 10:06:33 AM
to hard to imagine how atm's will "kill" bitcoin


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: tobyjaguar on October 15, 2014, 05:16:04 PM
So now that bitcoin atms are being manufactured and installed...does anyone have any data/details on how this platform is doing? Still obsolete or worthwhile from a business standpoint?


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: Sheldor333 on October 15, 2014, 08:39:52 PM
Don't know why this thread is active all of a sudden after 3 years. Still anyone who invested at that time in an ATM I assume they earned a lot by now.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: faceplantz on October 16, 2014, 05:45:38 AM
Don't know why this thread is active all of a sudden after 3 years. Still anyone who invested at that time in an ATM I assume they earned a lot by now.

Correct. :) Maybe owned numerous BTC ATM's


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: tobyjaguar on October 16, 2014, 07:56:01 PM
well, I was looking for information on bitcoin ATMs and read through this post. With companies like lamassu, it seems as thought bitcoin terminals are becoming more accessible to acquire but regulation is keeping them from appearing locally. At least that has been my experience. I posted to this thread to see if anyone operating bitcoin ATMs are doing well with it.


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: CoinATMRadar on November 03, 2014, 05:55:45 PM
I posted to this thread to see if anyone operating bitcoin ATMs are doing well with it.

Here are several examples listed http://coinatmradar.com/blog/bitcoin-atm-profitability-part-2-real-examples/ (http://coinatmradar.com/blog/bitcoin-atm-profitability-part-2-real-examples/)


Title: Re: Bitcoin ATMs -- who are the players?
Post by: asiabtc on December 22, 2014, 03:29:21 AM
we have 100+ atm launched market very soon.
here is the video: http://youtu.be/Qlzw4oYwKkA
join BitExchange. setup your own O2O exchange market.